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Ukraine Says, People Emerging Alive from Bombed Mariupol Theater; U.K Military Says, Russia's Invasion of Ukraine Remains Largely Stalled; Scholz Says, NATO Will Not Intervene with Military Force in Ukraine. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 17, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Remarkable news this morning out of Mariupol, survivors beginning to emerge from the rubble of a bombed theater, that theater, see the remnants of it there, had been used to shelter for hundreds of men, women and children.

Now, we should tell you at this moment, it is not clear how many people are still alive who were sheltering in that theatre. This heinous attack carried out despite very clear messages on either side of the building, visible from the air in the days leading up to it. I think we have that image that we can show you from the theater, of course, serving as a haven for innocent children.

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OLEKSII REZNIKOV, UKRAINE'S MININSTER OF DEFENSE: You can see from the maps, from the drones, that are around the theater, big letters of children were written so that the pilot of the plane, which was throwing the bombs could see. And, still, in spite of that, this monster has bombed the theater.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, the idea that people walked out of there alive is remarkable. Even as Russias aerial assault persists, U.K. Defense Ministry intelligence shows that Ukraine is holding its ground, largely stalling any Russian troop advancements. Now, Moscow's forces, they're resorting to older, less precise weapons and, frankly, aiming at civilian targets deliberately, and as a result, we are seeing more civilian casualties.

All this comes as President Biden is looking to speak, at least, to China, keep China from supporting the Russian invasion. Biden set to speak with President Xi Jinping tomorrow. It would be their first known one-on-one discussions in some months. HILL: Our team in Ukraine joining us now with the very latest. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is following this hopeful news coming out of Mariupol.

So, Nick, we're learning that some people have survived this horror.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: It does appear at this early stage to be the case. And, Jim, I have to say, in the same way last night, that we didn't know how many people were in the shelter when the bomb struck. We still don't at this stage how many have survived and have emerged.

The major issue had been that that blast, which you can see, totally destroying the outsides of that building seems to have sealed the entrance in and out leaving people to essentially have to wait for the intense shelling to stop to be able to begin the process of clearing that rubble and getting people out. The fear have been hundreds were in there. In fact, Ukraine's defense minister talked about 1,200 this morning, calling those behind this attack a monster.

And I think it's pretty clear, frankly, that regardless of the casualty levels here, which, thankfully, appear to be small, we just don't have concrete figures, the decision seems to still have been taken to drop an airstrike on a building, which, from space, it was visible in Russian the words, children on either side

And added to that too, for days, social media had been carrying videos showing the intense conditions underground, the dark -- the panic, frankly, of people sheltering in that underground space. So, yes, certainly a potential piece of good news here, still early stages but none of that detracts from the barbarity of the initial airstrike in the first place.

Jim, you join me here in Odessa, the third largest city, on what would normally be a busy tourist main strip here but now deserted with these tank traps that run all the way down.

And during the morning here, we have heard sirens and also local officials, one talking about in response to videos circulating that shows Russian ships, it seems, or certain ships on the horizon off Odessa. The local officials saying this may be Russian ships, they may be maneuvering. They shouldn't be cause for anxiety but still fears here building as the military pressure mounts along the east, around standing on the Black Sea coast, but something may be headed towards Odessa soon. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Concern there, of course, an amphibious landing.

Now, let's turn to CNN International Correspondent Scott McLean. He is in Western Ukraine, in Lviv.

Scott, truly remarkable read of this war three weeks in from U.K. intelligence, that Ukrainian military forces, despite being grossly outnumbered, appear to be holding their ground.

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certainly stronger resistance than many had expected, mainly the Russians. So, this is a U.K. military intelligence assessment, as you mentioned, and they say that the Russians have appeared to have stalled on many places on the ground. As you mentioned, we are seeing many attacks coming from the sky, as many of them seemingly indiscriminately targeting civilian locations, apartment buildings, that theater in Mariupol, the list goes on and on.

And so this assessment says that because the Russians have not been able to make the progress that they would have liked and because they're having losses and because they're not really in control of the sky, as much as they figured that they were, they're starting to resort to lower risk but less precise older weapons.

[10:05:03]

And so one of them, in particular, is weapons that are fired from aircraft, they are called standoff air launched weapons. And what this does is essentially allows jets to not have to get as close, there's not as much risk to the planes or the pilots and they can fire those weapons from farther away. The difficulty there, though, is, obviously, they're much less precise and often hitting they're these civilian targets.

Also, we're hearing from an adviser to President Zelenskyy who says that the Ukrainians are launching a counterattack and they are starting to change the situation on the ground in many places. Here's also what President Zelenskyy's chief of staff said last hour. Listen.

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ANDRIY YERMAK, CHIEF OF STAFF FOR UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKY: Our military forces, if they have the opportunity to opt to defense of our city, to back their positions, to free some cities to some places, of course, they go for it and try to do this, because we're in our lands, and we are not stopping our fighting up to the victory and then all the Russian troops go out from our territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: Also, a little bit of context around the British military assessment, and that's that there is some debate about whether this is the Russians stalling or whether this is then them merely regrouping. The other thing to keep in mind is that we've see in other cities, the Russians like to encircle cities rather than go into them often, so perhaps that's also what's happening on some of these fronts. Erica?

HILL: Scott McLean, I appreciate the reporting, as always, thank you.

Joining me to discuss, Marian Zablotskyi, a member of Ukrainian Parliament, good to have you with us this morning.

I want to pick up on this assessment that we have from the U.K. Ministry of Defense, the Russian forces are essentially stalled. What are you seeing there on the ground? Can you give us a sense of what you've been able to witness? MARIAN ZABLOTSKYI, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Well, Russians did suffer catastrophic military losses. So, to give an example, our military assesses and claimed to have captured or destroyed more than 400 Russian tanks and the independent groups who verify Russian losses just based on social media with actual videos of destruction or capture, can prove tank by tank, at least 234 tank losses for the Russians.

Of course, not all the thanks that Russia loses are captured on video later on. So, our assessment of the military of more than 400 tanks destroyed or captured is very close or more likely to the accurate figure. And what I can tell you, that more than 60 percent of those were either abandoned or captured. So, the morale among the Russian army is extremely small and the organization level is very poor.

HILL: One of our military analysts this morning looking at this said, yes, Russia does appear stalled but this could also be stalling while Russia is trying to figure out how to shore up its resources. Does that concern you that that is, in fact, the move?

ZABLOTSKYI: No. I think it has gone to the worst expected plan possible. As we have credible reports that those in the FSB, so the Russians, security agency who have been responsible for collaborations and people who are supposed to support Russian military efforts here have been arrested and detained in Ukraine. Obviously, they were not calculating on suffering and losing hundreds of tanks and probably well over a thousand armored vehicles and at least, as we assessed, 14,000 killed in the military action.

I think they did not expect this. By the time we are talking since the beginning of the war, they thought that they were about to capture the whole Ukraine. So, I think in shock and are looking for internal enemies.

HILL: In the meantime, as we are watching this play out, the attacks, the repeated attacks on civilians in your country, there is understandably a lot of focus on this theater in Mariupol, which was serving as a shelter. As we see in satellite images from just a few days ago, children written on either side of that building. We know some people have been coming out alive. We don't have exact numbers right now, but your minister of defense calling this bombing, the person who did it calling that person a monster.

Given what we are seeing in terms of these indiscriminate, in some cases, or perhaps targeted bombings, has this changed at all the way that you were talking to civilians about where and how they should shelter?

ZABLOTSKYI: Unfortunately, the situation about shelling of civilian objects has been present since the very beginning. And we are only witnessing the tip of their effort, unfortunately, in this case. There is relatively little communication with Mariupol, so the connection to them is relatively poor, they have no electricity.

[10:10:07] But, unfortunately, cities like Mariupol, around Kyiv and the centers that Russians have captured, there have been a lot of incidents where they were shooting civilians at random. There were a lot of incidents, reports of rapes and a lot of human suffering. And, unfortunately, those that get to the video, that can be seen from satellite, it's only the tip of the iceberg, unfortunately, the human suffering, this violence from the hands of the Russian army is much worse.

HILL: Unfortunately, as we often learn afterwards, once more, the reporting comes out. It is terrible.

I do want to ask you quickly before we let you go. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz saying today NATO will not risk by escalation in Ukraine by intervening with military force. U.S. Congressman Adam Kinzinger was on with us just a short time ago, told my colleague, Jim Sciutto, that there really needs to be some sort of a red line laid down here so it's clear if Russia crosses that line, what the response will be.

Do you agree, would a very clear red line laid out by either the U.S. or allies make a difference?

ZABLOTSKYI: I think that Putin has crossed all the red lines possible. We have over 100 children dead already and thousands of civilians killed indiscriminately and sometimes precision fire on civilians. I think this is the 1938 or the 1939 moment when Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia or Poland.

Basically, now we need to draw the price for Putin as an example for other totalitarian leaders, what would be the price for invading other countries, bombing civilians, taking its territory, taking the crime (ph) for that? Because this, we are potentially standing not at the time when conflicts around the world can develop.

So, other leaders around the world are watching, what will Germany do, what the United States do in case they want to do something like that? So, I think nobody should spare any effort towards setting a price Putin for doing these disastrous things. Never again, as our president said in German parliament.

HILL: That's what he said this morning too in Germany. Marian Zablotskyi, I appreciate you taking the time to join us this morning. Thank you.

ZABLOTSKYI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: The world is watching, as he says.

Still to come, Ukraine putting pressure on NATO to step in more. Member nations are pushing back on some steps. The latest leader to deny direct NATO military intervention.

Plus, helping families, many of the millions of them fleeing for their lives. The discussions underway in the Biden administration to help those Ukrainian refugees.

And later, a conspiracy theory spreading amongst the far-right here in the U.S., mimicking what we've heard from Putin himself. We are debunking claims of U.S. funded bioweapons labs in Ukraine. You'll want to hear this.

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SCIUTTO: This morning, the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, while meeting with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg in Berlin, stressed once again that the alliance does want to prevent escalation intentions with Russia.

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OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: But I would also like to be very clear and I would like to say that NATO will not intervene militarily in this war.

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SCIUTTO: His comments follow the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy's direct appeal to Germany for more assistance, more help just this morning. Have a listen to how he made his pitch.

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Once again, you find yourselves behind a wall. It is not a Berlin wall. It is a wall in the middle of Europe between freedom and bondage. This is a wall that is getting thicker with every bomb falling on our land, on Ukraine with every decision not made, for the sake of peace. Although it could help us, how did this happen?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: To each country, a message tailored to that audience. To the U.S. yesterday, it was about 9/11 and Pearl Harbor, there you saw about the Berlin wall to Germany.

Joining me now to discuss, former Deputy Secretary General to NATO Rose Gottemoeller. Thanks so much for joining us this morning.

ROSE GOTTEMOELLER, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY GENERAL TO NATO: My pleasure.

SCIUTTO: First, I would love to have your read of the situation on the ground, because U.K. intelligence indicates Russian forces are stalled, taking perhaps greater losses than we realized. There's even some evidence of Ukrainian counterattacks. Also, you do have talks underway, and at least at the negotiating table, not from the mouth of Vladimir Putin, you do see some movement from the Russian side. Do you see potential here, at least potential for a path out of this, a path to end the war?

GOTTEMOELLER: I do, Jim. And let me just say, I was glad to hear the assessment of U.K. intelligence this morning. I think the Ukrainians have done a fantastic job defending their homeland, really. And it just goes to show when you have that wind at you're back, you can really do amazing things. But I also want to point out that they've had a lot of training in partnership with NATO over recent years and I think that is showing as well, that good partnership as Ukraine has been working with NATO.

As far as the negotiations are concerned, I think it's significant that both presidents, President Putin and President Zelenskyy, have dropped key conditions.

[10:20:05]

Putin has dropped his regime change condition. He wanted Zelenskyy out. And Zelenskyy has dropped, it seems, the demand to join NATO, at least at this time. And so when both presidents make decisions like that, it lands momentum to negotiations.

SCIUTTO: Okay. I certainly don't want to eliminate that hope, but we know Putin's track record. It was only just before the invasion, he denied Ukraine exists as an independent country. His past record has been to use negotiations as a stalling tactic, a time to regroup. Can you see Putin himself with the language he's using now signing to a deal, and if he does, believing what he says when he signs to a deal, believing he would back off?

GOTTEMOELLER: He certainly didn't sound like he was moving off his core positions yesterday when he -- against both to the Russian people, but I have to say I continue to see a couple of good signs. One is that the negotiations have gone pretty quiet, although there has been some reporting in The Financial Times today, but it's the megaphone diplomacy that they were conducting prior to the invasion.

That really gave me the willies, frankly, because megaphone diplomacy usually means that this is a cover job for something else bad that you want to do. In this case, the negotiations are being conducted behind closed doors and even Russian sources are now saying that they think progress is going to be made.

How the Russian leadership sells this to Putin is another matter entirely, but they are taking a pounding on the ground in Ukraine with many, many boys coming back in body bags. So, I think the public outrage is going to grow and so others in the Russian government are going to have to get Putin to come around to this.

SCIUTTO: Putin's past playbook shows that when cornered, he hits back harder. And we are seeing him attack civilian targets more, not less aggressively. And I wonder what your level of concern is that if he continues to be cornered, that he resorts to even more horrible weapons, chemical weapons or the possibility of a tactical or battlefield nuclear weapon?

GOTTEMOELLER: Yes, I think we're all concerned about him resorting to weapons of mass destruction. And it's been very good that U.S. and U.K. intelligence have been warning clearly against the use of chemical weapons. Recently, Jake Sullivan just talked to his counterpart, Patrushev, yesterday to warn him off the use of weapons of mass destruction. I think that this very clear message to Putin and his cohort, no impunity here, you will not be able to sell this as a false flag mission of any kind. I think that that has been important. But indeed, I think we're all worried that Putin might hit out in this way.

I frankly do not see at this moment the use of a nuclear weapon. The emphasis seems to be on chemical but we have to lay that out there as a possibility.

SCIUTTO: And that is, as you know, horrible enough.

I do want to ask, if the message we will not accept this from the west regarding such attacks is sufficient. There are some, and I'm going to quote The New York Times columnist, Bret Stephens, in an opinion piece her wrote, refusing to oppose a no-fly zone on Ukraine may be justified because it exceeds the risk NATO countries are prepared to tolerate, but the idea that doing so could start World War III ignores history, telegraphs weakness. Americans squared off with Soviet pilots under Chinese or North Korean cover in the Korean War without blowing up the world. Our vocal aversion to confrontation is an invitation, not a deterrent to Russian escalation.

Do you believe that the U.S. and NATO have overstated the risk of at least threatening direct conflict with Russian forces if they cross certain red lines?

GOTTEMOELLER: Well, on that no-fly zone, I just don't agree with Bret Stephens. This has been not an air superiority problem. This is not dogfights over Ukraine. The Russians haven't been flying their aircraft over Ukraine. They're afraid of losing them already to the anti-aircraft missiles that the Ukrainians have. So, what we have here is a missile defense problem.

These missiles that are hitting the theatre, for example, were fired from Russian or Belarusian territory. I'm not sure which. They need air defense help. I was glad to see that the Slovakians, for example, are looking to send air defense systems to Ukraine. That's what they need right now.

SCIUTTO: Those S-300s, right, they've been asking for some time.

GOTTEMOELLER: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: Rose Gottemoeller, thanks for waking up early out on the West Coast.

GOTTEMOELLER: Sure, thank you.

HILL: Innocent Ukrainian civilians paying the ultimate price for Putin's war. Up next, you're going to hear from someone on the frontlines of the aftermath of this destruction.

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HILL: This morning, CNN has learned several Ukrainians have, in fact, survived after a theater they were sheltering in was slammed by heavy shelling. You can see what's left of it there.

Right now, the head of the Chernihiv region, which is to the northeast of Kyiv, says that city is, quote, suffering great losses.

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SCIUTTO: Joining us now, someone who is seeing those losses firsthand. She is Tata Marharian. She is a member of the Ukrainian Volunteer Medical --

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