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Ukraine: People Emerging Alive From Bombed Mariupol Theater; Ukraine: Forces Starting To "Counterstrike" Russian Military. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired March 17, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: He says that the Ukrainian army is beginning to be able to effectively strike Russian forces.

[15:00:07]

Quote, the fact is drastically -- this fact is drastically changing the disposition of the sides. Are you seeing any evidence of that?

SVIATOSLAV YURASH, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Indeed. I mean, we were basically beating them back in those towns which I mentioned on the road to the western water. I was just a few days ago in the city of Makariv. I mean, it's a site of fierce tank battles. It's a site of an unimaginable horror and tragedy with almost every single street destroyed. And the city has been simply recaptured by our forces and Russia driven to the outskirts of town.

It is not just there. It's in different sectors. We are pushing them back. We are fighting back. We are taking territory. We have border guards for example in the regions of northern Ukraine that essentially went back to Russia.

Again, just the point of -- the fact that we have a whole population now mobilized to do everything in their power to try and beat back invaders.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. And of course, Mr. Yurash, I know this is taking a horrible personal toll on everyone. You have already had losses.

Your friend Sasha was killed. She was the journalist working with the Fox team when they came under attack by Russian forces. Here's a picture of you both together. She was so young. 24 years old.

And so, can you tell us about your friendship?

YURASH: She was so much more than a friend. We spent a decade basically building everything we've built. We had all the upsides, the downsides of having different -- and everything. We went through our teenage years, all the way to adulthood, the revolution, and through various trials and tribulations, we both have different (INAUDIBLE) around us.

But the reality is, she was full of life, full of ambition, doing everything you can imagine to change Ukraine and to be the voice of independent Ukraine. She sets herself in that -- whatever -- whatever in memoriam Instagram page of hers. But the fact of the matter is, she had proven with her life that Ukrainians are willing and able to try to change the country and world. And I hope that she will live on in us continuing the different things she started building upon to get Ukraine the understanding that we have (INAUDIBLE) Sashas every single day all around our country dying and the world is standing by doing something that is not helping (INAUDIBLE) the world would be convinced to change and join us in this battle.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that.

Sviatoslav Yurash, we will check back with you. You take care of yourself. We appreciate talking to you.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: At least 130 people so far have come out alive from the rubble of the Mariupol Theater in Ukraine. About 1,300 people were sheltering there until Russian bombs destroyed it yesterday. That's according to a former local leader.

This video shot a few days ago shows how packed the theater was with people living in darkness. Resources were scarce. A man, we can hear him here, saying that the elderly, women and children get food first.

The Russian word for children was painted on the ground on both sides of this building. The letters were so large they could be seen by satellite.

And a warning, the video you are about to see, like a lot of video coming in from Ukraine is graphic. This shows people removing a body in the aftermath of the Russian strike in Chernihiv. And we just learned an American was among several killed there.

CAMEROTA: And this accounts the latest examples of the indiscriminate onslaught on civilians. Maternity wards, apartments, schools, all obliterated. This video, this just in to the newsroom, it shows a large market in Kharkiv. This is in flames. We're told a rescue worker there died.

The British defense ministry believes Russia is resorting to older, less precise weapons that are more likely to result in civilian casualties. Today, Ukraine's president continued his pleas to western governments to help stop the killing of his people. This time he addressed Germany's lawmakers using a reference to the holocaust. He said every year, politicians say the motto never again, but he now says those words are worthless.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Anderson is with us from Lviv, in Western Ukraine.

Anderson, we're learning about possible advances that Ukraine's military are making.

What do you know?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yeah. We have been seeing, Victor and Alisyn, a senior advisor to President Zelenskyy said that Ukraine's army is beginning to, quote, counterstrike a far larger Russian forces in a number of, what he said, there are active directions.

[15:05:12]

We don't have too much details about this. I want to turn now to CNN's Fred Pleitgen for more. He is joining me also in Lviv.

Let's start with the theater that we know more than 1,000 people had been using the theater as a bomb shelter. We don't know how many may have been inside there at the time it was actually struck. What's the latest on rescue efforts?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Anderson, that's really one of the key questions, how many people were inside when it was struck and how of those people are actually still alive. And quite frankly, we don't have any new information on that. And the reason for that is these local authorities there in Mariupol tell us that the rescue services that are normally trained for something like that, they simply don't exist anymore because of the dire situation there, because of all the shelling it is taking from the Russian side, the indirect fire that's coming in there.

So, the good news with the Mariupol Theater is that the bomb shelter where these people were hiding held. It held in place. It survived. The building, though, was extremely destroyed. It is difficult to get people out of the rubble there and they simply don't have professional crews that are able to do that.

In fact, one local official told us he even had friends who are coming over trying to help. So, they are still trying to assess the situation. It does appear many, many people did survive. But it's really unclear how big the damage is, how many people may have died in all of this. The authorities are really still trying to figure that out.

And the big issue with that, Anderson, is also they say they are doing this as they are facing further shelling by Russian forces coming into the city. Of course, we have to remind our viewers, it is under complete siege, surrounded by the Russian military. There's no running water. There's basically no more electricity, and really supplies there, both medical and food, very scarce as well, Anderson.

COOPER: We also, as we heard from Secretary Blinken, an American citizen was among several killed in Chernihiv. Do we know anything more about this?

PLEITGEN: We have gotten confirmation now from the State Department that an American citizen was among those killed in Chernihiv. The State Department so far not going as far as releasing an identity. A big process is behind that, notifying next of kin for instance.

However, what we do know, and I actually manage to speak to the mayor of Chernihiv, just a little while ago, is that there has been massive shelling going in that -- going on in that town as well. They say that on Wednesday alone, 53 people were killed in direct fire and shelling in that city. A lot of the residential buildings, of course, hit as well. That city is pretty much also under siege. And the mayor telling me the areas getting hit are not military areas. He said those are civilian infrastructure, public infrastructure, and residential buildings that are getting hit. Of course, that city also in a very desperate situation as well as the onslaught continues. Of course, also a place, Anderson, where yesterday, that bread line was hit and at least 10 people killed there.

COOPER: Yeah. Extraordinary images there seen from the air. Fred Pleitgen, appreciate it.

I want to go right now to Eastern Ukraine, where there are reports of two dozen casualties from Russian shelling near Kharkiv.

CNN's Ivan Watson joins me now. What more do we know about this attack?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, not only does the city of Kharkiv continue to be pummeled, Anderson, but also surrounding. We hear about this time about 25 kilometers, I don't know, maybe 15 miles southwest of Kharkiv. And there the regional prosecutor's office said at least 21 people killed, another 25 wounded by Russian shelling of that town.

And in the process, there was a school and art club that were destroyed. In the city of Kharkiv itself, there's an enormous market called the Barabashovo. And that thing has been on fire right now.

There are satellite footage emerging of buildings in Kharkiv that are currently on fire. Anecdotal accounts, eyewitnesses describing entire regions of that city that have been devastated by long-distance fire.

What's startling is that the Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, has gone on the record saying Russian armed forces do not bomb Ukrainian cities, and she claims that all of this is basically doctored videos made by NATO structures, as she put it.

But we have to take that with an enormous grain of salt, if you will. To this day, Russia won't even officially call the carnage happening in Ukraine right now a war, but they just call it a special military operation -- Anderson.

COOPER: It's just -- I mean state-sanctioned lies.

Talk about some of the new -- some of these humanitarian corridors in the way of Russian strikes. We have seen some of those in the south. In fact, the last couple of days there are unofficial ones. Are these more official now?

WATSON: The government in Ukraine says that they are official, that there are nine that have been established today, Thursday. But this goes back and forth. President Zelenskyy of Ukraine on Wednesday said that the humanitarian corridors had not succeeded in functioning. The government sounds more optimistic about this.

Now, this is nine separate corridors. One of them concerns with the port city Mariupol, where there's supposed to be a corridor that should allow humanitarian convoy that's been stalled for days to come in and also allow displaced people, people fleeing the city to escape.

We do know that tens of thousands of people have managed to escape even though there has not been a formal corridor established previously. But, clearly, some civilians have been able to escape largely with their own private automobiles.

But a lot more need to move. That's a city, where according to city council, just put out a statement. We are talking 300,000 or more people still hiding in basements from the siege and from the long- distance artillery fire and dozens of airstrikes a day that the city council says are being carried out against Mariupol in the Southeast, Anderson. .

COOPER: Yeah. Ivan Watson, appreciate it.

Alisyn and Victor, we have seen people putting children on private vehicles, transporting children through areas certainly after the bombing we have now seen of that theater. It is probably no comfort any longer to even have that word children on a car. It doesn't seem like it will stop anyone from attacking.

CAMEROTA: Yeah. We have seen there are no guarantees or seeming boundaries right now.

Anderson Cooper, thank you. We'll check back with you.

BLACKWELL: A senior U.S. defense official said Russian forces have now conducted more than 1,000 missile launches since the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine and that Russian forces continue to want to conduct the siege of Kyiv. That assessment is based on troop movements and the types of movements towards the capital.

Now, farther east, Japan has spotted four Russian warships passing through the waters in northeast Japan that may be carrying more troops, more supplies to Russian forces in Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: So, let's bring in retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. He's a CNN military analyst and former member of the Joint Staff at the Pentagon.

So, Colonel, can you walk us through what you are seeing with these Russian ships, what route they could possibly being taking.

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely, Alisyn. This is one of the most interesting developments in this particular war, because what we are talking about is the strait that is between the island of Hokkaido and the island of Honshu in Japan. It's actually international waters.

And what the Russians are doing is they are taking their ships from Vladivostok, which is about here, here to the strait and down into the Pacific. What they will probably do is they will then go through this area and circumvent these areas. And depending on how they want to do this exactly, go through the Suez Canal into the Black Sea, or perhaps if they can't get permission to do that, around Africa.

Either way, this is a potentially massive movement of troops, that kind of goes back to historical times when Russians did that in reverse back in 1905 that resulted in the defeat of the Russian fleet in the battle of Toshima. But what the Russians are doing here is definitely replenishing their forces or at least trying to do that.

BLACKWELL: Why this route, though? What does it tell you they are taking this long route via the seas instead of just going across the border, across land like this? They started with 150,000 troops they staged?

LEIGHTON: Well, because they don't have enough resupply capabilities within this area here, Victor. And what they could do ultimately is take the trans-Siberian railroad, which goes all the way to Moscow and then beyond. That does not have the capacity to do what they want to do. So they are taking this route by sea in order to make this work for them.

And it is one other thing to note about this, there is an American and Japanese air base right here, Misawa Air Base, which is pretty close to where they're transiting right now.

CAMEROTA: Colonel, let's talk about what's already happening in southern Ukraine. That's where the U.S. has observed continued naval activity. That's in the north Black Sea, right off the coast there of Odessa. We understand there hasn't been any shelling the past 24 hours.

What are you watching for there?

LEIGHTON: So, what I'm seeing here, Alisyn, is, you know, obviously, Odessa is right here. This is Ukraine's major port. What I'm looking for is activity here in the black sea, anything that would speak of a possible amphibious landing, that is what we're looking at because if they do this, they, of course, have to move forces a lot closer to the coastline.

[15:15:10]

But if they do this, what this would indicate is they are going to try to link up forces that would arrive here on the shore with Odessa with forces that are already in this area near Kherson and Mykolaiv. If they come together, that would basically cut off Ukraine from the black sea, which would make it a landlocked country.

BLACKWELL: On Kyiv, the U.S. believes that Russia still wants to take control of the capital. Ukrainian officials say their military is launching a number of counteroffensives, including in this region. What are the Ukrainian options there?

LEIGHTON: So, they are a bit limited, at least the way the map looks. So, what you see here is close approach right here in the west and northwest towards the city, in the northeast.

What the Ukrainians have an advantage in, though, terrain to their advantage. There are hilly areas right here and behind Kyiv to the northwest. And what the Ukrainians can do is they can come around this way, for example, or this way and try to cut off Russian forces inching toward Kyiv but don't have the strength to move forward.

So, any type of stationary Russian force is basically fair game for the Ukrainians if they attack quickly and if they are able to sustain the kind of fighting they need to in order to beat them back.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Colonel Cedric Leighton, thank you for walking us through all that.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Alisyn. Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: So Ukraine's president invoking the post-Holocaust vow of never again, as he pleads German lawmakers for more help. He calls those words worthless.

BLACKWELL: And the White House says President Biden will speak with China's President Xi following a diplomatic cable suggesting that China may be open to helping Russia.

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[15:21:22]

BLACKWELL: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is taking his plea for help to Germany now. In a virtual address, he called on Germany's parliament to remember the atrocities of Hitler during the Holocaust.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINE (through translator): Eighty years later, I address all of you who heard politicians say every year, never again. But I can see these words are worth nothing. Now a whole nation is being exterminated in Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Ambassador Richard Haass. He is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of "The World: A Brief Introduction."

Ambassador, great to see you. What do you think about that analogy? And do you think by using the analogy of the Holocaust that President Zelenskyy does get the -- change the minds, I guess, of the German lawmakers?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: One of the lessons is that one shouldn't use the Holocaust as an analogy. It was singular. And I don't think any individual, be it a political leader or anyone else, helps himself by comparing things to the Holocaust, 6 million innocent people died. So I would leave that apart.

Also, Germany has done extraordinary things over the last three weeks. Among things, shipping arms directly to Ukraine. It is double ditch defense spending. It dropped its gas pipeline with Russia. Germany has moved more in the last three weeks than the last three decades.

And so, again, it's not quite clear to me. I think you have President Zelenskyy, he's human. He's under enormous, enormous stress. Enormous, enormous pressure.

And he is understandably desperate for help, wherever he can get it from. But in this case, I'm not sure that particular message will resonate.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about this call scheduled for tomorrow between President Biden and President Xi of China. Of course it comes after this cable we've reported on that suggests that China may be open to helping Russia either militarily or economically. The significance of this call now and plausible outcomes, best case, from this call?

HAASS: I think this call, in no small part, is designed to make sure that the Chinese do not help Russia economically, or militarily or diplomatically for that matter. We can't prevent it.

What we can do, what President Biden can do is simply make clear to president xi exactly what the costs would be in terms of sanctions and in terms of really worsening an already deteriorating U.S.-Chinese relationship. If China helps Russia militarily or economically provides them with a lifeline, it will all but cement in this country the notion that China is an adversary. So, it would be really unwise for China to go down that path, that China wants to do is somehow have it both ways, be supportive of Russia, yet not get caught up in sanctions and the rest.

Whether they can successfully pull off that straddle line, I'm skeptical. Indeed, there are already signs within China that President Xi is beginning to get a little bit of heat, a little of criticism for having hitched this wagon for Vladimir Putin, and I would think that both President Xi and Vladimir Putin, I want to put it, their 2020s have turned out the way they anticipated or hope for.

So, I'm hoping that China thinks twice before it extends again a lifeline to Russia.

CAMEROTA: It's interesting, Richard, because I thought that the Biden administration had already spelled that out to China, and then to hear Secretary Blinken just an hour ago talk about this and say, we're concerned that they are considering directly assisting Russia with military equipment to use in Ukraine.

[15:25:10]

I thought they had moved on to MREs or something that was less than military equipment. So, it sounds like there's still -- there is information they are still actively considering it.

HAASS: I'm not surprised, in part because President Xi has so associated himself with Putin. I bet he and some people around him are worried if Putin fails, it becomes a major problem, setback for the Chinese leadership and this is a year where President Xi more than anything else was looking for a greenlight for a third term as president of China.

So, they've got themselves in a bad position. In some ways, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, Xi sees this grow. Again, my prediction, Alisyn, is he's going to try to have it both ways. And I think the point of American policy is to see that they can, to force them to choose, and to force them, or at least pressure them to choose in the right direction.

BLACKWELL: What are you expecting out of this? We now know that President Biden is going to Brussels to this extraordinary NATO meeting, their characterization, not mine, that can come out of that?

HAASS: Look, in the Woody Allen tradition, that 80 or 90 percent of life is showing up. I think President Biden going there is really important, which symbolizes literally the revival of the transatlantic relationship and NATO.

We have gone a million miles since President Trump to President Biden in terms of the strength of the alliance. And it will also, you know, symbolize American support for NATO. We are pledged essentially an attack on one is an attack on all. This makes it clear we're back to that.

We've traumatically increased our physical presence in Europe. And hopefully also that we will begin to coordinate the future. How do we think about various peace proposals, how do we think about reparations, about peace plans with Russia, about relieving sanctions, about -- you know, essentially the whole gamut, war crimes. How are we going to deal with these -- all these issues?

We don't want any daylight to open up between ourselves and the other countries of Europe. Right now, we've been extraordinarily close. Putin is going to try to drive wedges. So this trip in some ways preemptively I hope makes it less likely that Mr. Putin will succeed.

BLACKWELL: President of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, thank you. .

HAASS: Thank you all.

BLACKWELL: Moments ago, Secretary of State Antony Blinken echoed President Biden by accusing Russia of committing war crimes in Ukraine. Up next, CNN's exclusive interview with the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court.

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