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Biden-Xi Call Comes as China Pressured to Take Side in Ukraine War; Max Baucus, Former U.S. Ambassador to China, Discusses China's Position on Russia-Ukraine War; Excerpt from CNN's Exclusive Interview with Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin on Russia-Ukraine; Alex Goncharenko, Ukrainian Parliament Member, Discusses the Russian Invasion; Biden Warns Chinese President in Call of Consequences for Helping Russia. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 18, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We know, going into it, President Biden and the United States is hoping to deter Beijing from helping the Kremlin out.

They've made request to them for economic assistance. They've asked for military equipment, including those MREs, those ready-to-eat meals, for their Russian forces that, of course, have struggled so much in Ukraine.

So much more than the U.S. assessed that Putin believed they were going to when they started this invasion. So that's been a big question.

The big push from the White House is hoping to put some distance between President Xi and President Putin by encouraging him not to help backfill when it comes to military equipment and what shortages are.

Not to help when it comes to the sanctions that they are facing from the West.

And so those are the big questions coming out of this, is whether or not President Biden was successful in that or if he go got a good read on whether or not China does plan to help.

And we should note that the White House said, if they do, China will pay a steep price if they help Putin out with his invasion.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much for all of that reporting.

Let's bring in Max Baucus. He's the former U.S. ambassador to China.

Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being here.

You just heard Kaitlan say the White House has not told us what was said on the call but we do have the readout from the Chinese side of what they say was said on the call.

So I just want to read you a portion of what President Xi said.

Quote, "As permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and the world's two largest economies, we must not only lead the development of China/U.S. relationships down the correct path but also shoulder out international responsibilities and make efforts for world peace and tranquility."

So he's saying all of the right things. Does that mean that President Xi will not send any aid to Russia?

MAX BAUCUS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHINA: Well, in my experience, surveys in the past with China, I learned that you have to take everything that they say with a few grains of salt.

And just remember, they're an authoritarian government, not democrat, which means the leader who say whatever he or she wants to say and not called on the carpet for maybe saying something that is inaccurate.

I think this is a very important phone call between President Biden and President Xi. It is extremely important.

I hope that they strength he relationship with each other and the subsequent calls on down the road.

Biden is in a much stronger position today than he was several weeks ago. Because Putin apparently is bogged down so much in Ukraine. The Ukraine resistance is so strong.

Biden has done a great job rallying the allies in their efforts in Ukraine.

So Biden is in a strong position explaining to President Xi, hey, Mr. President, don't help Russia with arms or so forth because you're going to pay the price with additional sanctions or maybe sanctions from other countries as well.

It is a very important call.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: You make the point that President Biden was in a strong position because he was able to rally the rest of the world and coalesce the West around some sanctions against Russia.

Is it clear though, as the president says, that China will they face consequences if they back Russia, that the president will be able to bring Europe along, bring as many countries along in creating consequences for China?

BAUCUS: I think so. I mean, look, the Congress is backing the president, in fact -- some are criticizing for not doing more.

But more importantly, as I see it, is that President Biden developed a good healthy relationship with President Xi.

Let's remember, China is not going anywhere. China is always going to be around. It is a huge country. A huge economy. It is economy is past the United States by about 10 years.

Let's also remember that Russians, the country, is large geographically but it's economy is paltry compared to that of China. The economy in Russia is about the size of Italy and Spain.

So there's a lot of bluster from Russia and China, which is much differently, much more long-term and very carefully. You have to remember that China wants to be respected.

I think that this Ukraine solution depends not only on Putin, but also depends very much on China.

China can help wind down the Ukraine war if it really wants to. It could make it worse if it wants to.

And I think China is trying to find out the answer to that itself. It is not sure what it wants to do.

CAMEROTA: From your experience, bottom line, do you think China will send aid to Russia?

BAUCUS: Well, I think they will. They'll send some aid. The question is what aid.

The reports about, you know, Russian soldiers need food, Russia needs other support, I think China will support -- will send that kind of aid to kind of help Russia move along.

I do not think that China will send significant military aid to Russia.

Frankly, China has put -- Russia has put itself in a weakened position with respect to China.

[14:35:02]

Because I think it is clear that President Xi thought that, gee, Putin and Ukraine it will be an easy win for Putin. And it has not turned out that way.

So China (sic) is very weakened now with respect to all countries in the world, including China. So China could extract huge concessions from Russia.

They may want to -- China's main goal is to be a world leader, world hegemon in about five, 10, 15 years. And that is what it will pursue.

BLACKWELL: Ambassador Max Baucus, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So Ukrainian armed forces say they have killed more than 14,000 Russian soldiers since the invasion began. We also hear of stalled Russian convoys and sagging troop morale.

So up next, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is telling us what he sees in a CNN exclusive interview.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:40:36]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm Anderson Cooper in Lviv, Ukraine.

Right now, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin is in Bulgaria meeting with U.S. and NATO troops. The visit is part of a trip to the region aimed to reinforce its support of NATO allies as war wages near their border.

My colleague, Don Lemon, just sat down for an exclusive interview with Secretary Austin today. He asked him about the apparent lack of progress by Russian forces in their attempt to overtake Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, "DON LEMON TONIGHT": What is your assessment of Russian forces now? Are they stalled, are they regrouping so that they could increase their assault, increase their violence on Ukraine?

What is your assessment of the Russian military?

GEN. LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is hard to tell, Don. I think, they have not progressed as far -- as quickly as they would have liked to.

I think they envisioned that they would move rapidly and very quickly seize the capital city. They've not been able to do that. They've struggled with logistics. So we've seen a number of missteps along the way.

I don't see, you know, evidence of good employment of tactical intelligence. I don't see integration of, you know, air capability with the ground maneuver.

And so really a number of things that we would expect to have seen that we just haven't seen.

And the Russians (sic) really have presented them some problems. So many of the assumptions have not proven to be true as they enter the fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And Don Lemon joins us now from Bulgaria.

What else did you talk to Secretary Austin about?

LEMON: I spoke with him about that, Anderson, which I thought was significant, to hear the secretary of defense of the United States talking about the impotence on the part of Russian military. The much- vaunted Russian military.

But I think what's also important is he talked about giving jets or planes to Ukraine. And what that would mean for the United States and the world. And about Poland wanting to give those jets to Ukraine through the

United States.

And he said -- and I asked him, are you OK with other nations possibly giving jets to the United States as long as the U.S. was not involved?

And he said, other nations want to do that, this is their prerogative and they are free to do so.

What we wants to do is abide by the NATO agreement and by making sure that NATO is strong and making sure that we don't get involved in a direct conflict with Russia.

I asked him, Anderson, if that was the number one priority in this.

And he said it was a priority. But the number-one priority was making sure that the Ukrainian people could take care of themselves and to try to get Vladimir Putin to come to the table.

They're still open to negotiations and diplomacy.

COOPER: What else is he doing here? He's going around to basically just continue to shore up the NATO relationships, I assume?

LEMON: He is. He's going around to shore up. He's going to be here for a while and then go around to other nations.

We saw him in Slovakia and we flew here to Bulgaria with him and he's going to go on and speak to folks.

Today, he was meeting with troops, U.S. troops and troops from other NATO nations.

One other very important thing, Anderson -- two things I talked to him about chemical weapons and also about the use of nuclear weapons and that was very concerning to him.

And he said, if that does happen, that they would abide by Article 5, which means that an attack on one NATO nation is an attack on all NATO nations.

The last time that the Article 5 was invoked was September 11th, 2001. And after that, we did go to war.

So I think he's making it very clear that Russia knows and also our allies know, part of NATO knows that, if they are attacked, then the United States would step in to defend itself and to defend them to whatever ability that they had to do it.

COOPER: Yes. I look forward to the whole interview.

Don will have more of the interview tonight on "DON LEMON TONIGHT," at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, only here on CNN.

Don, it is great to see you. We'll talked to you again soon.

I want to send it back now to Alisyn and Victor.

CAMEROTA: Anderson, thank you very much. We'll check back with you.

[14:44:49]

Meanwhile, Ukraine's armed forces say they blocked Russia's advance. So we'll speak to a member of Ukraine's parliament who has now taken up arms and joined the resistance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Ukraine's army said it has blocked Russia's two main routes into the city of Kyiv. But casualties from shelling in and around the capital are growing and Russia's bombardment continues to be aggressive and indiscriminate.

One person was killed and four others juried today after Ukrainian fighters downed a Russian missile.

[14:49:59]

Alex Goncharenko is a member of the Ukrainian parliament, and he's been traveling around Ukraine and witnessing the devastation.

Mr. Goncharenko, thank you so much. Great to see you again.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Just tell us what you've seen in the past 24 hours. We have some of your photos.

Just tell us what you've witnessed and where you've been.

ALEX GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Thank you.

It's in the region, in the southern part of Ukraine, and it's the only regional center from 26, which is for the moment occupied by Russian.

And Ukrainian army started a counter offense there, counterattack, and liberated several small towns, villages.

(TECHNICAL PROBLEM)

CAMEROTA: Hold on. We'll see if we can --

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: -- get him back.

Hold on, Mr. Goncharenko. We're just making sure you have your video. And we think we do now. OK, good.

And so the U.N. says that 816 civilians --

GONCHARENKO: May I continue?

CAMEROTA: Yes. But let me ask you this and you can combine both.

The U.N.'s number is 860 civilians have been killed since Russia's onslaught. But that number seems very low given the stuff you've been seeing. So comment on that also.

GONCHARENKO: Absolutely.

(TECHNICAL PROBLEM)

CAMEROTA: I think we're having -- yes. I think we're having --

(CROSSTALK)

GONCHARENKO: And maybe many more. Maybe many more. We don't know the exact number for the moment. But just in Mariupol we have counted thousands. And combining with other cities, the number is awful.

So that's a terror which Putin has started against civilians. He couldn't do anything with -- (TECHNICAL PROBLEM)

GONCHARENKO: He's attacking civilians with bombs and missiles. That's why to defend our sky is so important for us. And still need the air defense, which was -- (TECHNICAL PROBLEM) -- defense and aircraft, which we are waiting for.

CAMEROTA: Yes. As you know, President Biden has authorized hundreds of millions of dollars-worth of military aid that's on the way to you.

I want to talk about this memorial in Lviv. There are 109 empty baby strollers that have been set out there to signify the more than 100 children that have already been killed in this war. It's haunting, obviously.

Do you know how this came to pass? Do you know who created this?

GONCHARENKO: I don't know but it's -- (TECHNICAL PROBLEM) -- really something -- (TECHNICAL PROBLEM) -- Ukraine.

(TECHNICAL PROBLEM)

CAMEROTA: Yes. We're obviously struggling with his connection. As you can imagine, he's moving around in Ukraine.

We always appreciate having Alex Goncharenko on. And we'll get him back as soon as we can.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it's a technological miracle we're able to get any people there who are just on their cellphones or laptops considering how many of the telecommunications assets have been hit by Russia.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I've been marveling at that for weeks now. It's amazing because they're coming to us sometimes from shelters and basements.

But we always enjoy talking to him and we'll check back with him.

All right. New details on the call between President Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping. The White House says the president told Xi about the consequences if China provides material support to Russia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:58:12]

CAMEROTA: We have just gotten new information about today's crucial phone call between President Biden and Chinese President Xi Jinping.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House.

Phil, what was said?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Victor, more than three and a half hours after this call was ended, a one-hour and 50-minute call between President Biden's and Xi, the White House put out their version of the events, their readout of that call.

And included in that call are some of the key elements the White House officials made clear the president wanted to underscore in that conversation.

Including laying out the details in scale of this coalition brought together by the U.S. and it sallies to try to impose costs on Russia due to the invasion but also warning, very clearly, China should not get involved on Russia's side.

In this readout, it says, quote:

"Biden described the implications and consequences if China provides material support to Russia as it conducts brutal attacks against Ukrainian cities and civilians. The president underscored his support for a diplomatic resolution to the crisis."

Guys, we've seen it in public statements from administration officials increasingly over the course of the last several days, very palpable concern that China is at least considering aiding Russia in some way, shape or form, either economic or military assistance.

U.S. officials received some indication that Russia had made requests for that assistance and that China was at least considering the possibility of giving to them.

Now President Biden has directly laid out to President Xi that that would be a mistake and there would be costs.

Now the U.S. has been very tightlipped about what those costs may be. Although Jake Sullivan, the president's national security advisor, in a nearly seven-hour meeting with his Chinese counterpart in Rome last week, did detail the scale of what those costs may be.

[14:59:54]

But, guys, one element that I think is important, obviously, the threat to some degree of potential sanctions or other potential punishments is serious, but also underscoring the scale of the coalition. Europe is very important to China. I think the president wanted to get

across that the Europeans and the United States are aligned on this.