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Former Ukrainian President Says, Biden Should Visit Kyiv Next Week; U.S Women Heading To Ukraine To Offer Medical Help; Refugees Fleeing Russia's Invasion Trigger Humanitarian Crisis. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired March 19, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Take a look at this. A check designer is making pillows with Zelenskyy's face on them and his signature green T. proceeds are going to charities helping Ukrainians affected by the war, so all for a good cause. Pillows reportedly have brought in nearly $20,000 so far.

And your next hour of CNN Newsroom starts right now.

I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are in the CNN Newsroom this Saturday evening.

The Ukrainian military claiming this weekend that another Russian general was killed in Southern Ukraine, and they say it happen amid heavy fighting between the cities of Mykolaiv and Kherson. This is drone footage as Ukrainian forces carried out a devastating attack on the airport just north of Kherson on Wednesday. CNN has not been able to independently verify these reports, but if they are accurate, this would be the fifth and highest ranking Russian general killed in combat since Russia attacked Ukraine.

And more than 6,000 men, women and children fled the country today through humanitarian corridors from the cities of Mariupol and also from areas around Kyiv. The European Union is warning that there could be 15 million Ukrainian refugees within the next few weeks.

And meantime, chilling reports from city leaders in Mariupol saying some of their residents are being taken against their will by Russian forces amid ongoing destruction of their city. Some of them reportedly taken to camps where Russian forces check their phones and documents, then redirected them to remote cities in Russia. They added the fate of others is unknown.

CNN has reporters following the latest developments here in the states. Arlette Saenz at the White House and Kylie Atwood at the State Department.

I'm going to start with you, Arlette. Earlier today on CNN, Ukraine's former president, clad in a flak jacket, begged President Biden to come to Kyiv when he is in Europe next week for the NATO summit as a show of solidarity. That's, of course, an extraordinary ask. What are you hearing from the White House about that? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, sources I've spoken to tonight say it's unlikely President Biden would make that trip to Kyiv while he is in Europe next week. Of course, there are major security and logistical concerns. And it does not appear that that is something that will be added to his schedule.

Of course, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy did ask Biden to visit Kyiv just ten days before the invasion began. Biden did not comply with that request.

Now, it is expected that at some point Biden will be speaking with Zelenskyy before he heads over to Europe. But that -- a trip to Ukraine just seems very unlikely to the capital, at least, very unlikely at this moment.

BROWN: Well, we do know what is going to happen. There will be this NATO meeting in Brussels, that the secretary general calls extraordinary under these circumstances, especially as Russia is firing missiles within miles of the Polish border, a member of the NATO alliance. What kind of discussions is the White House preparing to have?

SAENZ: Well, White House officials have described President Biden as someone who is a big fan of face-to-face diplomacy, and that is something that he will get to engage in as he heads to Brussels next week. He will be in Brussels on Thursday for a full day of meetings, including that extraordinary NATO summit, where they will be talking about defense and deterrence measures in the wake of Russia's aggression towards Ukraine.

Of course, this will also be an opportunity for Biden to reassure NATO allies that the U.S. is committed to defending them. Additionally, Biden will participate in a European council summit where they will talk about things like sanctions and humanitarian assistance. And he will also be joining a meeting of G7 leaders. This was a meeting that was requested from Germany as they these countries continue to plot together how exactly to respond to this war in Ukraine.

Of course, so much of what the U.S. has done has been done in coordination with allies. The U.S. has said that they are open to implementing more sanctions against Russia and, of course, finding more ways to provide defense mechanisms for Ukraine as they battle Russia in their country.

BROWN: All right. Arlette from the White House for us late on this Saturday, thank you.

Also tonight, a deadly crash during NATO training exercises in Norway, four U.S. marines now confirmed dead by U.S. military officials. Details here from CNN's Kylie Atwood at the State Department.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This deadly crash occurred during a regular NATO exercise. According to NATO, it was planned about eight months ago, has no linkage to the ongoing war in Ukraine. Of course, we know that NATO countries bolstered their presence on the eastern flank, in those countries that are part of NATO and are closer to Russia. But this exercise was not linked to that.

Now, according to the Norwegian prime minister, there were four U.S. service members who were killed in this aircraft that went down as part of this exercise.

[22:05:06]

And we haven't heard yet confirmation from the U.S. side. But the U.S. Marine Corps said that there were four marines involved in an accident. They said it's being investigated and that the Norwegians are the ones who are leading that investigation.

Of course, this comes as President Biden is headed to the region next week for this extraordinary meeting with NATO allies, fellow NATO leaders in this extraordinary summit to discuss the ongoing war in Ukraine. Pam?

BROWN: All right, Kylie Atwood, thank you.

A devastating blow to the Ukrainian military, dozens of troops are reported killed after a Russian missile strike on military barracks Friday in Mykolaiv. This dramatic moment that you see right here was recorded by our CNN Swedish affiliate, a soldier is seen being pulled alive from the rubble. Rescuers there use shovels and bare hands to get him out.

CNN Nick Paton Walsh was there and saw the aftermath of attack firsthand.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: We saw ourselves the scene of these clearly two missile strikes. One tore a building in two, split right down the middle by the blast. Another building in this military site reduced to rubble.

We understand from various sources that we are certainly talking about 20 dead, possibly 30, possibly 40. I hate to be flippant in that range of numbers but it is simply the fact of what we are hearing from talking to people here. I also understand too that 40 people were injured as a result of that blast too.

These are soldiers certainly, and we met some in hospital after the blast and talked about the emotional losses clearly they were feeling. One man lay there disorientated, talking the names of his friends asking, how they were. Another man had experienced significant damage to both of his legs and broke down in front of us describing the sheer violence of those blasts.

These are military targets, I should point out, but so often in Mykolaiv behind me, that has not been the case. We've seen residential complexes hit hard. We've seen cluster munitions, remnants of those, left in vegetable patches, in family cars.

So, Russia's devastation here is pretty constant, frankly, and it often, over the past week, appears to match a pattern of them losing ground physically in terms of terrain here. BROWN: And in Russia, thanks to the barrage of lies by the state media, Russian citizens have no idea what's really going on in Ukraine. They're being brainwashed.

And my next guest says the disinformation is tearing families apart. Ilya Krasilshchik is a Russian blogger and former tech executive who is now living in the country of Georgia. Hi.

So, you flagged Russia raft week to avoid the fallout from the international sanctions, at least that was part of the reason. What was it like to leave your home?

ILYA KRASILSHCHIK, RUSSIAN TECH EXECUTIVE AND JOURNALIST WHO FLED COUNTRY: Hi. Firstly I want to say that I didn't leave to avoid the sanctions. Firstly, I left the country because it was insecure to live there. And actually you need to separate you from the country which invades your neighbor and where you have a lot of friends.

To lose a home, it's not -- it's not so easy. Actually, I want to come back to Moscow. But I think it's impossible right now.

BROWN: But you have said that. Are you concerned, you know, about your safety in the future because you have been so outspoken about the war? I mean, is that why you are saying it's impossible right now because of the -- not only the fact of what's going on right now but just you being outspoken?

KRASILSHCHIK: Yes, sure. This -- this -- we call it the anti-fake law, which kind of -- I don't know it's kind of -- I know this is humor, I think the people who invented fake news. They said that the fake news is everything else, but, yes, we have the fake new under this law only just when you just call the war the war. You can be jailed for this. Actually, we don't know for how long, because we have no cases yet but this is from 3 to 15 years. It's quite -- it's quite a lot. So, yes, I don't want to check it. I'll check it from outside. Yes.

BROWN: Who how do your family, friends and colleague still in Russia describe what things are like right now?

KRASILSHCHIK: You know, I asked some friends days ago and actually were in touch. And they said the picture is quite surrealistic. Restaurants are full, still full and there are a lot of people everywhere. But they see a lot more people in tears. The drivers are crazy.

[22:10:00]

There is hate speech from everywhere, from radio, from T.V. Police is checking your phones simultaneously, randomly anywhere. So you just can go -- you can be underground and somebody will stop you and ask you to check your messages, which when I was there three weeks ago, it was impossible.

BROWN: Right. I want to talk more about the disinformation that is tearing families apart. You have asked for screenshots. You got hundreds of conversations between parents and children about Russia's war in Ukraine, who is responsible. What stood out to you with these exchanges?

KRASILSHCHIK: It's painful. It's painful. I see a lot of conversations when fathers said her daughter that she is a traitor and she should be jailed for this, or a mother abandoned her son, or mother beating her daughter. And there is a lot of conversations. I think there are thousands and thousands and thousands in Russia right now. We know about the conversations between the people who are in Kyiv or somewhere else in Ukraine and they send the relatives in Russia that they have a war. And the relatives don't believe them.

So, this is how propaganda works, as we know right now. Yes, when relatives don't believe their sons and daughters, then they see a war, they believe the T.V., they don't believe their own children. So, this is horrifying.

BROWN: It's stunning to think there are millions of relatives in Ukraine and Russia, right, they're family and you have Ukrainians saying this is what I'm seeing, this is what I'm experiencing, and family in Russia saying, no, that's not true, that's not really what is happening. It's just hard for people outside of that to look in and say, well, how can they not believe them? But they are bombarded the propaganda and there seems to be a generational divide, as you've talked about.

I want to ask you about -- there is this Arnold Schwarzenegger video. He just made this video aimed at the Russian people, pleading for them to put pressure on the government to end this war. Who else do you think could have impact with the Russian people, like an Arnold Schwarzenegger? One of our viewers wrote in and had that question.

KRASILSHCHIK: Frankly, I think in video is very powerful. It's truly powerful for anybody who sees the video. But all the people who see this video are the people who know -- who knows -- who know that this is a war and this is a war crime. I don't believe that the Russian soldiers will see this video or the Russian T.V. audience will see this video because actually there is no way that it will get this video.

So, actually, there is a lot of facts everywhere that this is a war and this against the law, and this is a crime. You don't need to look for this -- for these facts to understand it. You just need to believe that these are facts. The problem is that when people -- so, you know, I publish a lot of facts on my Instagram account and I publish a lot of people's stories about it.

And even me, I got a lot of questions. No, no, no, no this is fake. This is fake. This city is bombed under Ukrainian nationalists, or this is an old video from, I don't know, Lebanon or Syria. So, this -- I don't know what they did with the people who maybe they are bought, I don't know, that they are trolls. But people see the actual war in Ukraine, and they say to me that this is fake, this is not the real war.

So, Schwarzenegger he is a great guy I don't know that this will work for these people here. I don't actually what will help them there.

BROWN: All right. Ilya, thank you so much and best of luck to you.

KRASILSHCHIK: Thank you. Bye-bye.

BROWN: We're also following breaking news in Arkansas, a mass shooting outside a car show. This happened in Dumas, Arkansas. State police as many as ten people may be wounded. No word yet on the condition of the victims or any suspects but we will keep you updated as we learn more.

And up next on this Saturday night, the fog of war, suspected Russian saboteurs creeping into Ukraine, making it hard to know who to trust for authorities on high alert.

Also ahead tonight, how Europe is only just beginning to grapple with the biggest refugee crisis since World War II.

And medical mission to Ukraine, a group of female medics from the U.S. have had enough of watching the conflict play out on television, so they are heading into Lviv next week.

[22:15:07]

They share their story here in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So many of us are feeling it, the helplessness of watching the horror unfold in Ukraine. Donating to relief efforts is the only thing most of us can do right now. But two brave women have decided to do more. Two weeks ago, medical professionals Babs and Dotty, that is their names, received a call from a friend in Ukraine asking for help with relief training on the frontlines. And earlier, I spoke with them about the upcoming trip to Lviv. For privacy reasons, they asked us not to use their last names on air.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You made some calls. You put together a group to head to Lviv pretty quickly, right?

BABS, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN: It just happened within --

DOTTY, NURSE PRACTITIONER: Two weeks.

BABS: Two weeks. Yes.

BROWN: Wow.

BABS: Yes. It just -- I just made phone calls and talked to friends and I said, do you know anybody that would send a team? And then a friend said, no, but, you know what, if you put a team together, I will -- I will go. And that's how the team kind of just came together.

BROWN: And it's mostly women, right? Was that intentional?

BABS: No, it wasn't.

BROWN: It's just a further example that women can run a world.

DOTTY: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

[22:20:00]

We have some guys on the team. And we love them. But I think 80 percent of us are women.

BROWN: So, you're going. I just want to be clear for viewers who are wondering right now. You are going as private citizens, not part of any group like Team Rubicon or Doctors Without Borders. Why is that, Babs? And I'm getting to you in a second, Dotty.

BABS: Well, there is a lot of red tape right now. Any time you enter Ukraine and there is a symbol or anything that could just indicate that there is U.S. involvement, it could be -- it could be construed that the U.S. is getting involved and it could be a political statement and cause an issue. So, nobody is -- nobody wants to get involved. Everybody is hands off. Everybody is afraid of it having a repercussion.

So, we are private citizens. We know the risk we are taking. We're going in. We're taking that risk freely. We all made that individual decision to go and to help. And we're not going to sue anybody. That's another thing. If you have an organization and you lose one of your members, there could be an issue.

So, we are all taking this risk. We know what we're facing. And we just want to go and help.

BROWN: I mean, Dotty, I want to bring you in, because this is a huge risk. I mean, you could -- frankly, you're putting your life at risk. When you got the call to join this team to go over to Ukraine, did you have any hesitation about signing on to this plan? What was your reaction?

DOTTY: When Babs first approached me a couple weeks ago and asked me if I was interested, and I was. I had recently come back from Honduras in January. So, I was on a trip. And it's something that I love to do. I love to help, you know, as nurses and doctors, you know, compassion for these people that are just hurting so bad.

And I do understand the risk involved. We're taking steps, you know, for our protection. And we just -- we just hope and pray that nothing does happen. And there is a lot of people out there supporting us, praying for us.

So, I think we're in pretty good hands. And, you know, if -- we wouldn't go in if it was dangerous, I mean, for us. And the -- the doctor, the medical doctor over there understands that too. So, we'll -- you know, we hope to get there, do what we can, and then, you know, when it's time to leave, we'll have to say goodbye at that point.

BROWN: Was there anything, Dotty, specific that convinced you, I've got to go over there, I've got to help the people? I mean, we've been seeing these images of the theater in Mariupol being bombed and we just showed this mom show shielded her baby. He was breast feeding the baby in the hospitals. I mean, was there anything that pulled you strongly?

DOTTY: I think it all being with -- as nurses, as doctors, we have seen trauma. We have seen death. And it is life changing. I expect to come back a different person, more powerful than I was, I'm hoping. It's just something, you know, in your heart -- I'm following my heart and this is what it's telling me to do.

BROWN: That's just a beautiful thing, though, that it's -- you're following your heart and actually taking action, because you have experience. You have skills that could really help these people who are suffering in Ukraine.

And, Babs, I understand your husband thinks you're nuts, right? I mean, he is like, what are you doing? Why are you doing this?

BABS: My whole family thinks I'm nuts. And I think my neighborhood thinks I'm nuts. But sometimes you've got to do something that's out of the norm. We wouldn't have airplanes if people were scared of flying. We wouldn't be going to moon. You don't reach a limit until you push that limit.

And so, all right, how can we stand back and watch these children murdered? How can we stand back and watch the suffering? And if we have an ability to help, it's our duty to help. So, I just can't watch it any more. There is ten of us who couldn't watch it any more. And the ten us, I think, will make a huge difference.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: No doubt they will. If you want to help Babs's and Dotty's cause, all you have to do is log on to firstonesinukraine.com.

And still to come on this Saturday evening, a humanitarian crisis building beyond Ukraine's borders, as more than 3 million people flee. Up next, what happens when European countries say, no more, we're at capacity? We're going to talk about that after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:25:00]

BROWN: At least 847 civilians have been killed and about 1,400 others injured so far in Russia's war on Ukraine. Those are official figures from the United Nations. Now, the actual totals will no doubt be much higher when more updated information arrives.

But since Russia invaded three weeks ago, more than 3 million refugees fled Ukraine. That is more than the total population of Chicago, just to put that in perspective. Russia's war is creating a humanitarian crisis in Europe and around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: These refugees are mostly women and children. They stuff their lives into backpacks and left their homes and everything they knew behind. Today, many of them know that their apartment buildings and streets have been bombed to rubble. And the horrors continue for those who remain in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But Europe has been dealing with a massive refugee crisis for the past decade. Refugees have flooded the region, many fleeing wars in Syria, Afghanistan and Libya. Over the past seven years, Europe's Mediterranean countries have taken in more than 2 million refugees. And, again, that's over seven years.

Russia's war on Ukraine has seen Europe take in more than 3 million in just three weeks and it's expected to get worse. That is already a shocking number. The U.N. high commissioner for refugees says Europe has not seen a refugee crisis that has escalated this quickly since the Second World War.

[22:30:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FILIPPO GRANDI, U.N. HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: I have worked in refugee emergencies for almost 40 years. And rarely have I seen an exodus as rapid as this one. Hour by hour, minute by minute, more people are fleeing the terrifying reality of violence.

International solidarity has been heartwarming. But nothing can replace the need for the guns to be silenced for dialogue and diplomacy to succeed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Professor Aram Gavoor is Associate Dean for Academic Affairs at George Washington University Law School and he's also from senior counsel for National Security Department at the Department -- National Security at the Department of Justice. Hi, Professor.

So, let's just talk about the numbers that we are working with right now. 3.2 million refugees have already left Ukraine already. And the European Union is warning that there could be up to 15 million refugees over the next few weeks. Just help us understand how dire this situation is right now.

ARAM GAVOOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: It's highly significant. Right now, I think what we're observing is a humanitarian disaster. The numbers that the E.U. has calculated I think is about one-third of Ukraine's population of 43 million. And between 2015 and 2016, Afghans and Syrians, about 1.5 million came to Europe.

That's absolutely right. You're seeing a massive influx of people and with 6.6 million internally displaced persons. And Russia just recently stopping the bombing of humanitarian corridors to exit the country westward, the situation is very dire. BROWN: So, these countries, as you point out, they're already sort of maxed out from prior refugee crises. What happens when these European countries can't take any more refugees? You already have Poland warning that they're nearing capacity right now.

GAVOOR: And that's a big problem. So, ultimately, it is a cumulative issue, especially those who remain in Europe. But with this particular circumstance, I think the operating thinking is that these refuges will go further west into Europe as capacity fills in Central Europe.

BROWN: But you see this as the worst refugee crisis since World War II, right?

GAVOOR: In some respects, yes. Already, in some respects, not quite the yet. The Syrian crisis produced 6.6 million refugees, many of whom stayed in the region surrounding -- the country surrounding Syria, and about a million, maybe 1.3 million, coming to Europe.

But these numbers that we're seeing, especially if the E.U. predictions are correct, it will eclipse even that crisis.

BROWN: Wow, that is stunning. I want to go to a viewer question. This viewer is asking, of the 3.2 million people who have left Ukraine that we know of, is there a sense how many are going to Russia and Belarus, and are there some who are fleeing there willingly? I think people might be confused, why are they going to Russia?

GAVOOR: That's a very good question. So, looking at UNHCR numbers, approximately 180,000 Ukrainians have fled to Russia, about 25,000 to Belarus.

Now, the country of Ukraine, Ukraine nationals, is multiethnic in its dimension. About 17 percent of the population are ethnic Russians, about 7 million people. So, I think it makes sense that some of those people headed east.

BROWN: Yes. And I think the latest number I saw that in Russia, 11 million of them have relatives in Ukraine. I mean, there is a lot of familiar -- familial ties there. This week, President Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken both said they think Vladimir Putin is guilty of war crimes. Let's take a listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Yesterday, President Biden said that, in his opinion, war crimes have been committed in Ukraine. Personally, I agree. Intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: You worked on war crime cases. I want to just channel my viewers right now, so many of them are asking about this. Does Putin qualify as a war criminal by international law standards? Does this mean, practically, war crimes can only be addressed after wars are over? What can happen to hold him accountable?

GAVOOR: So, that's a very loaded question.

BROWN: I know.

GAVOOR: Let's unpack it a little bit. I think the first piece of it is that looking at the International Criminal Court. The big challenge right now, I think, is that the United States, Russia and Ukraine are not signatories to the Rome convention or the Rome Statute from 1998. It is a multinational treaty that establishes the ICC.

Now, Ukraine has acceded to ICC jurisdiction at least twice that I'm aware of, in 2014, in relation to the Russia's annexation of the Crimea.

[22:35:05]

And the chief prosecutor is investigating war crimes based on a referral from, I think, 39 countries right now.

BROWN: But, I mean, we see the video, right? It's like -- I understand you have to investigate. But I think a lot of people are wondering, but we are see the war crimes happen, we are seeing innocent civilians being targeted. Why can't something happen sooner?

GAVOOR: Great question. So, the video is absolutely horrific. I don't want to tamper that down in any way, looking at the maternity hospitals getting blown up, residential blocks getting bombed and also these humanitarian corridors also getting bombed, humanitarian corridors that were agreed to between Ukraine and Russia.

The challenge though is is that international law, especially the ICC, moves at a slow but also very rigorous pace and it takes time to build these types of cases. Right now, the bigger challenge is that there isn't actually jurisdiction in the eyes of Russia. And that's also based on the behavior of the United States, which has consistently pushed back on ICC Jurisdiction, especially for its servicemen in theaters of combat.

BROWN: That's an interesting point there. Aram Gavoor from George Washington University Law School, thank you very much.

GAVOOR: Thank you, Pam.

BROWN: And to help people in Ukraine with shelter, food and water, please go to cnn.com/impact. You'll find links to several vetted organizations that are working on the ground right now.

And this just in to CNN, you're looking at aerials of a Los Angeles Sheriff's Department helicopter that crashed in San Gabriel Canyon near Los Angeles a short time ago. The L.A. County Fire Department says five people were airlifted to a hospital, one of them in critical condition. It happened at about 5:00 P.M. local time, that is according to the FAA.

We have reached out to the sheriff's department for more details and will update you as we learn more. Up next, tonight, Putin's rally in Moscow may have looked like the picture of Russian solidarity at first glance but our next guest may have a different perspective. In fact, I'm pretty sure he has a different perspective. We're going to speak with Garry Kasparov after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[22:40:00]

BROWN: Another day of suffering in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin took the stage Friday at a rally in Moscow as tens of thousands of people cheered and waved Russian flags.

So, let's talk about this with Garry Kasparov. He is probably best known as a world chess champ but he is also the chairman of the Human Rights Foundation and a long-time Putin critic. Hi, Garry. Thanks for staying up late with us.

So, for anyone looking at the video from Putin's rally last night, you see this giant stadium full of cheering people, waving flags, rooting for Team Russia, Team Putin. What did you think as you saw this?

GARRY KASPAROV, CHAIRMAN, HUMAN RIGHTS FOUNDATION AND RENEW DEMOCRACY INITIATIVE: I don't have to think. I know enough to tell you that the first impression is wrong. People there, they were mobilized. Participation was mandatory. Tens of millions of dollars was spent to bring people in. And you couldn't avoid the invitation to attend this event.

Many people just left, you know, after the beginning of this event. And I have even doubt about Putin's real participation because I saw enough evidence online that some of the video clips from this event, they were copied from the event a year before, because now it's annual event in Russia celebrating the so-called unification with Crimea. It's the date of annexation.

So, there are doubts the event was really something that could prove the unity of Russian people behind Putin. And we should remember that tens of thousands of people making the streets of Russia protesting the war, knowing that they will be treated very poorly by police, they will be beaten, they will be detained and many of them will end up in jail for years.

BROWN: Yes, just calling it a war, they could end up in jail. And during the rally, Putin paraphrased this bible verse while praising what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine. Putin said there is no other love rather than if someone gives soul for their friends. What do you make of that?

KASPAROV: Look, I know that people now are being arrested in Russia for demonstrating with the sixth commandment, don't kill. So, Putin is using a lot of words from the bible. But also if you start following him, he is using many phrased that have been used by Adolf Hitler, talking about peace and about intentions, not shooting civilians. I don't think we should listen to a dictator. We should look at his deeds, at his actions.

And since his blitzkrieg failed in Ukraine and he couldn't take Kyiv and decapitate Ukrainian government both politically and, I think, literally. So, he decided to level down the country. And every day, we see a new evidence of war crimes on an industrial scale.

BROWN: What about Ukraine's President Zelenskyy? Today, he is calling for peace negotiations without delay. But last night, The Washington Post reported Zelenskyy and his top aides haven't decided what Ukraine is willing to concede in exchange for a ceasefire. What do you think should happen?

KASPAROV: : Well, Zelenskyy is president of a country that is under assault and the country that is facing an enemy with a superior fire power and with very little real support coming from the free world. And he has to think about his citizens that are being killed as we speak now.

Ukraine army is doing great on the battlefield. But civilians are just easy targets, easy prey for Russian army, both on the ground and especially from the air. But I think Zelenskyy knows that the war will end only with the collapse of Putin's regime. As long as Putin stays in Kremlin, there could be temporary ceasefire, but for Putin, ceasefire means reload. And that's why Ukrainians know better than anyone else.

[22:45:00]

Only decisive victory of Putin's armies could save Ukraine.

BROWN: I want to ask you about what U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson said during this conference in Britain. He said that Putin is in a total panic, fearing a pro-democracy uprising in Moscow. Do you believe that Putin is afraid of such an uprising?

KASPAROV: I don't think so. I don't think that Putin's fear comes from the fact that you have tens of thousands of people protesting against the war in Moscow, St. Petersburg or other Russian cities. But Putin is afraid of losing the war because he knows a dictator cannot afford like looking weak. And we know from history that the military defeat, geopolitical defeat leads to socioeconomic revolt especially because of sanctions. So, this scenario is more than realistic, defeat in Ukraine, social revolt in Russia, lack of funds to pay the police and propaganda and then you can expect a palace coup.

So, Putin knows that unless you win soon this war. So, he might be facing many challenges that he couldn't cope with. So, that's why he uses every resource at his disposal and also the statements, very timid statements from President Biden and other NATO leaders are just basically giving Putin a green light to continue his massacre in Ukraine.

BROWN: Very quickly, I want to get to this viewer question asking, based on what you know about Putin, why did Russia attack Ukraine?

KASPAROV: Putin never -- well, was never shy about his intentions to destroy Ukrainian as sovereignty. You just have to listen to what he has been saying, the support of Putin's plan to revisit results of the cold war. He told about it bluntly 15 years ago on security conference in Munich when he -- he told that Russia would return to the so-called spheres of influence and Ukraine was standing on his way to expand Russian influence into former Soviet Union and even beyond that to Eastern Europe.

BROWN: All right. Garry Kasparov always great to have you on the show, thank you.

KASPAROV: Thank you very much for inviting me.

BROWN: Up next at, as Ukraine invades Russian forces out of biggest cities, every day citizens are on high alert, even stopping strangers on the street.

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[22:50:00]

BROWN: Putin's war is not only destroying cities and costing human lives in Ukraine, it's also ruined something so simple as human trust. Everyone, it seems, is suspicious of everyone else now, as Scott McLean found out for himself.

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SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Days after the invasion began, this Lviv office was setup to help Ukrainians fleeing war, but not everyone who comes here is welcome. Shortly after we arrived, the man we're filming draws suspicion from staff. They tell us he has links to Russia. Police are called, documents are checked, questions are asked. More than an hour passes. The man tells us his only link to Russia was a five-year-old passport stamp. They let him go.

Even here in Lviv, a city that is far remote from the frontlines, we've had the police called on us twice, we've been asked to show our documents more times than I can count. And some people even say that random, ordinary citizens are asking total strangers to produce identification.

But if somebody asked you for your identification or your passport, you wouldn't think it was weird?

ANATOLII HRYHORIV, LVIV, UKRAINE RESIDENT: I wouldn't think.

MCLEAN: Anatolii Hryhoriv says, two weeks ago, he was walking home after sheltering in this bunker during an air raid alert.

You saw two guys that looked suspicious?

HRYHORIV: Yes. And they were going through the bushes.

MCLEAN: And they were walking through the bushes. HRYHORIV: He physically grab them here and didn't let them go. They probably let them go if they could show us some documents or (INAUDIBLE) but they didn't.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: They want to destroy Ukraine politically by destroying the head of state. We have information that enemy sabotage groups have entered Kyiv.

MCLEAN: Ever since the president's warning, CNN found that in Mykolaiv, any man out after curfew gets special attention from police. And in Kyiv, even those fleeing through humanitarian corridors don't escape scrutiny.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because we are afraid that Russians may have sent some of their own.

MCLEAN: Ukraine's rail chief says security has been beefed up to guard against saboteurs planting special targets to guide Russian missiles. Staff detained this man near Kharkiv.

OLEKSANDR KAMYSHIN, CEO, UKRAINIAN RAILWAYS: We constantly cage them and send them to police.

MCLEAN: How do you know for sure?

KAMYSHIN: Russian documents, many other stuff.

MCLEAN: A few days into the war, Volodymyr Lytvyn's wife said she spotted suspicious vehicles without headlights outside their home near the airport. By the time he went to investigate, police were already there pointing guns in his direction.

VOLODYMYR LYTVYN, LVIV, UKRAINE RESIDENT: It was an unpleasant experience for me. But I'm happy that there are such security measures. If you're an honest person and have no bad intentions, there's nothing to worry about.

MCLEAN: Was the word saboteur in your vocabulary before the war started?

LYTVYN: I knew.

MCLEAN: But finding links to Russia is complicated in a country filled with Russian speakers.

ROKSOLANA YAVORSKA, UKRAINIAN SECURITY SERVICE SPOKESWOMAN: It is simply impossible to consider every Russian-speaking person a saboteur. A saboteur may have a characteristic Russian accent and not just be a Russian speaker.

MCLEAN: The Ukrainian Security Service in Lviv says only soldiers and law enforcement can demand a person's documents. But in wartime --

YAVORSKA: To detain or not to detain a suspect with your own hands is a decision of each person.

MCLEAN: Despite all the hype, she says not a single person in Lviv has been charged yet with sabotage.

Scott McLean, CNN, Lviv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We have to tell you now about another senseless gun violence death in America, and, unfortunately, this one hits close to home here for our CNN family. Former CNN News Assistant Sierra Jenkins was among five people shot early this morning in Norfolk, Virginia. She and another person died as a result of their injuries.

Sierra was just 25 years old. After starting out at CNN as an intern in 2020, she quickly rose to the position of news assistant with the CNN help team in the fall of that year right in the middle of the pandemic.

[22:55:09]

She was currently working with a Virginian pilot as a breaking news reporter. And her editor-in-chief saying words we hear at CNN know too well to be true, quote, her passion for journalism was undeniable, and our community is better because of her reporting.

She was a rising star, a budding journalist. A digital editor had attempted to contact Sierra this morning about the shooting but was unable to reach her. And when the paper called in another reporting, that is when they discovered that Sierra was one of the victims.

Authorities are investigating the shooting, and they are asking the public to come forward with any information.

And in the meantime, all of us here at CNN want to send our heartfelt condolences to Sierra's family and friends. May her memory be a blessing.

We'll be right back.

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BROWN: If there was one image that really stood out among all the others this week, it was this, dozens of empty strollers lined up in the city square of Lviv, each one symbolizing a child killed by the Russian invasion.

[23:00:00]

Lviv has drawn hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians seeking shelter away from the frontline of the war.