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Ukrainian Forces Go on Offence to Take Back Grounds from Russia; Biden Heads to Europe for Emergency Summits of NATO, E.U. and G7; NATO to Discuss Russia's Place in the Global Community; Interview with President of Georgia Salome Zourabichvili about Russia's Invasion of Ukraine. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired March 23, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:54]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, I'm John Berman reporting from Lviv in western Ukraine.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow live in New York.

Moments from now Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will address the French government, his final push ahead of tomorrow's virtual address to NATO leaders. Right now President Biden is on his way to Brussels to meet with our NATO allies hoping to rally the West at a pivotal moment for Ukraine.

BERMAN: On the ground here in Ukraine, Russian forces striking homes, a shopping mall and other buildings in Lviv. We have video that shows damage in that city. Ukrainian forces there mounting a fierce resistance coming face to face with Russian forces in this heated gun battle.

We also obtained these new images this morning. Sheer devastation in Mariupol. Ukraine's government says Russia has now commandeered buses that were supposed to be used to evacuate residents from that city.

We want to begin this morning with CNN correspondent Phil Black live with me here in Lviv. And the news this morning around the capital city seems to be these Ukrainian counter offenses making some progress.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So we've been talking about Makariv to the west, where there has been intense fighting here really since the early days of the war. Yesterday we received video from the local police chief who was able to revisit that area again for the first time because the Ukrainian military say they've obtained it, they've regained control, they've taken that territory back from Russia.

It's clearly devastated. He says it's still under bombardment. To the northwest of Kyiv, the suburb of Irpin, this is an area that was -- had real Russian pressure in those early days. That was a humanitarian exodus from there. But the local police say they're back at work in that region now and Ukrainian forces are in control of about 80 percent of it.

So all of this is encouraging in that sense because what it means is at the very least it slows Russia's attempts to encircle the capital and if they can hold on to those gains, well, it would stop it entirely.

Now switching to Mariupol, that southern city which is under siege, under bombardment, has been for weeks, we do have these new aerial pictures from there which show really a lifeless, a lifeless city, or at least that section of it. And it matches what we are seeing from satellite imagery from there as well, really just utter devastation. These are residential areas that have been blown apart, and there are still hundreds of thousands of people trapped there.

You can't see them on the streets, but they come out when they can, otherwise they are huddling in their buildings. And as you mentioned, there is an effort to try and get people out through a humanitarian corridor, through Russian territory into Ukrainian territory. This corridor is opened every day. People in private vehicles have been taking it. No buses have been allowed in. When they tried to get in today, they were stopped and taken away at a Russian checkpoint.

BERMAN: Taking empty bus so people can't escape. Phil Black, thank you so much for that.

So President Biden's trip to Brussels is one of the highest stakes presidential trips in recent memory, a moment for the U.S. president to assume leadership of a newly united West. So far harsh Western sanctions have not stopped Vladimir Putin, and in the push to increase pressure even more sanctions are expected.

HARLOW: Kaitlan Collins and CNN White House reporter Natasha Bertrand join us from Brussels.

Thank you both so much for being there. Kaitlan, let's start with you. Beyond these new sanctions, what else is the U.S. expected to say, the president and the White House expected to say about the possibility of sending more U.S. troops to NATO posts?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We are expecting some kind of announcement on that, Poppy. It's not clear yet what that's going to look like. It doesn't seem like it's been finalized. And likely that's going to happen once President Biden is actually here on the ground speaking with these NATO allies about this. But we do believe NATO is going to increase its force posture. Obviously that would likely mean the United States doing so as well.

We've seen him do that over the last several weeks since this invasion started on the eastern flank, with a lot of those countries that are NATO allies that are very close to Ukraine, very close to Russia as well, given the obvious concerns they have because of this invasion and how that has happened. And so this is something that's likely to come out of this full day of meetings that President Biden is going to have while he's here on the ground in Brussels.

[10:05:06] Of course, new sanctions are coming as well including on hundreds of Russian lawmakers, something that Ukrainian President Zelenskyy has called for. But one other aspect that the National Security adviser is also saying to look out for and they're also trying to crack down on the sanctions that they've already put in place over the last several weeks, to make sure people can't evade them or try to weaken them or undermine them. That is going to be part of this announcement that you'll hear from President Biden after his full day of meetings here.

But whether or not there are any surprises or if there's anything, any kind of agreement or if there's any kind of push by some of the NATO allies while President Biden is on the ground here for things like the no-fly zone that President Zelenskyy has called for repeatedly, even though the Pentagon and President Biden have made clear they don't see that as an option. Is there another push to give more fighter jets to Ukraine?

Because that is something that President Zelenskyy has also talked about that he's needed. So those are all things that remains to be seen once President Biden is on the ground for this very extraordinary meeting that he's going to be having with NATO allies. It is something that is very difficult to get all of these heads of state here in one place. And this is something, Poppy, that isn't planned in just days. Typically it is something that would take months.

And we should note that while President Biden is on the way here, we did just find out that the first deliveries of that $800 million in new military aid that President Biden has authorized to send to Ukraine have started to arrive in Ukraine. About two days ago, they had not. They had started the shipments but the deliveries themselves had not started. But now we have been told that they have.

BERMAN: That is interesting. Natasha, you are in Brussels. What are you hearing from NATO Secretary Jens Stoltenberg about his priorities in these meetings?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, well, we were just in a press conference with Jens Stoltenberg and he actually laid out quite a bit of things that he expects the NATO alliance to agree to tomorrow, chief among them a major increase in forces along that eastern flank of NATO. He says that he believes that the alliance will agree to send more troops to those eastern flank countries who are of course, as Kaitlan said, feeling very threatened and very vulnerable right now due to Russia's aggression because they are so close to that front line.

And he also said that they will making decisions about investing more in those defenses, of course because when you send that amount of troops to that eastern flank of course it's going to cost a lot more. And he also said that China will be on the agenda. So they will be discussing China's role in potentially helping Russia in its invasion of Ukraine, potentially sending military and financial support.

Jens Stoltenberg has said that the alliance is still very concerned that China could actually do that. And when I asked him, you know, whether this issue of red lines would come up tomorrow during the summit, this question of what NATO would do if Russia did cross certain lines, including the potential use of weapons of mass destruction like chemical weapons, for example, he would not go into detail but I just want to read to you what he did not say which was, "Any use of chemical weapons would totally change the nature of the conflict and have far-reaching consequences."

And he emphasized that far-reaching consequences. He would not say of course what those would be or whether NATO would actually intervene. But clearly we are hearing kind of an uptick in rhetoric from NATO and U.S. officials who are becoming increasingly concerned that Russia could employ some use of weapons here. And he also said that tomorrow the alliance will likely agree to see additional support to Ukraine to include equipment that will protect them against potential chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear attacks -- John.

BERMAN: That is interesting. Natasha Bertrand in Brussels, Kaitlan Collins, to you as well, thank you both very much.

Joining us now, political scientist Ian Bremmer, president of Eurasia Group and GZERO Media.

Ian, great to see you. What of significance do you expect to come from these meetings? What they could potentially change or at a minimum influence the situation here in Ukraine?

IAM BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP: I mean, talk of further sanctions, really, as well as talk of further troops, American troops on the ground, and forward deployments right up against Russia's borders. There is a big debate. The Polish government, the Baltic states, would like to see an end to Russia energy export into Europe now. The Europeans are trying to get away from Russian energy as quickly as possible, but they are not there yet.

And, you know, the pressure is going to be on because fundamentally, it's European dollars, European euros that are paying the Russian government in support of the war effort. That's the reality and it's kind of perverse, but as of now that's where we are.

HARLOW: That's such an important and clear way to put it, Ian. And when I asked Ned Price at the State Department last hour about suggestions from, you know, some in the Senate to completely cut off the Russian financial system by basically sanctioning any country that does any business with them, buying any energy from them, he pointed to the reality which is, you know, we have different energy needs from Russia than Europe does.

[10:10:07]

But short of that, what would actually really change Putin's aggressive aggression, really change his behavior?

BREMMER: Well, I want to be clear that no one believes that even cutting off gas, oil and coal from Europe would actually change Russian behavior. I mean, when you're calling the president of Russia, with good reason, a war criminal, you're kind of beyond the pale of thinking that sanctions are suddenly going to change his behavior. But the fact is that American and European support for Ukraine, in addition to the courageous fighting of Ukrainians on the ground, that's changed the reality on the ground.

I mean, we can now say four weeks into this horrible conflict that the Ukrainian government is likely to be able to hold onto Kyiv. Russia won't be able to take it with their present troop forces, and Putin has not yet ordered a general mobilization, so it doesn't look like he's gearing up to try to take it. Now he can destroy Kyiv if he wants to like he did Aleppo, like he did Grozny in Chechnya, but that's a very different order than the Russians are suddenly going to capture and try to hold Ukraine.

And what this really leads to is not where the next couple of months are going. I think we can kind of understand that. It's what the hell is the world going to look like after we finally come to a freeze in this conflict? I mean, Biden is saying we need a new world order that the United States is going to lead. The Chinese clearly up for that. If Putin is still in power, and I suspect he will be, he's going to be incredibly angry, still with a big military and seeing the Ukrainians and NATO and a whole bunch of non-NATO states in between like Finland and Sweden, for example, as enemies.

And how are we going to deal with that and what kind of confrontation will be the next shoe to drop against Putin's Russia? Those are the questions that increasingly need to be discussed in the NATO summit, the emergency NATO summit that Biden quite rightly called for Brussels this week.

BERMAN: You know, such a great question, Ian. Everything that's happening here around me, it's so alarming, I think people are losing sight of the what's next question, because it's almost unimaginable, at least based on how we've all lived for the last 75 years.

I do want to ask you, you say it looks like Putin will stay in power, and I have no reason to dispute that. But everyone is looking for signs of dissent within Russia. And we got word just a little while ago that I guess the senior-most official that we have seen so far has left the Russian government. This would be a senior environmental official there. What to make of that?

BREMMER: That's right. That was Anatoly Chubias and he was very important in early privatization schemes back in the '90s when Russia was first independent after the Soviet collapsed. He's important, he's wealthy, he's an advisor to Putin, he's the climate envoy. Doesn't have quite as much influence in Russia given their lack of interest in that issue that, for example, John Kerry has in the Biden administration.

But it's significant. He's apparently in Turkey because when you resign in Russia from a big position and you oppose Putin, staying in Russia probably not a great idea. It would be meaningful if this was a member of the Security Council, that group of men that Putin turned to the day before the invasion asking all of them, you support the invasion, right? Tell me what you think about the invasion. That would be more meaningful. That's not where we are. It's obviously a welcome sign that any senior member of the Putin

administration would resign on the basis of conscience in opposition to the Ukraine war. But let's keep in mind that the Russians control their information scene and also that the vast majority of Russians believe that the reason that Russia is in such difficult shape is because they've been humiliated by the West. And Putin is the guy, even if they don't like the war, that is fighting for Russia against the West.

He's fighting against NATO, he's fighting against Ukraine, and that continues to give him some 70 percent approval ratings across Russia. We shouldn't expect that to change even as the Russian economy implodes in the near term.

HARLOW: Ian Bremmer, thank you so much. We always really appreciate your time.

BREMMER: Always good to see you guys.

HARLOW: Thanks again. We just --

BREMMER: Be safe, John.

HARLOW: Yes, be safe, John, and all our teams over there.

This just in to CNN, we just learned this morning on this program that the U.S. embassy in Moscow was given access to WNBA star Britney Griner who has been detained in Russia since February. She was detained in February after officials found -- say that they found marijuana vape cartridges in her luggage while going through security in a Moscow airport.

In the last hour I spoke with State Department spokesman Ned Price. Here is an update from him.

[10:15:05]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NED PRICE, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Within the past couple hours, an official from our embassy has been granted consular access to Brittney Griner. We were able to check on her condition. We will continue to work very closely with her legal team, with her broader network. Our official found Brittney Griner to be in good condition and we will continue to do everything we can to see to it that she is treated fairly throughout this ordeal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Really important update from them on her status. We'll continue to monitor and bring you any updates as we get them.

We're also following the final day of hearings for Supreme Court justice nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson. Her confirmation hearing on Capitol Hill is going on right now. Stay with us for more. BERMAN: But next, we're going to speak to the president of Georgia who

knows all too well the challenges of confronting Russian aggression and has negotiated with them directly. What has to be done to see any change from Putin, next.

And later, Poland, the center of refugee traffic from Ukraine prepares for President Biden's visit. We go there to see the border firsthand as the call for more coordinated humanitarian support grows louder each day.

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[10:20:51]

BERMAN: As President Biden heads to the NATO summit in Brussels, one leader who will be closely watching the negotiations is the president of Georgia, Salome Zourabichvili. Her country has experienced the type of Russian aggression we are now seeing in Ukraine, and like Ukraine Georgia is now asking for an expedited entry to the European Union. President Zourabichvili joins me now.

Thank you so much for being with us, Madam President. As these NATO leaders prepare to meet, and based on everything that you personally have lived through and based on what's happening here in Ukraine, what does the world need to know about Vladimir Putin?

PRES. SALOME ZOURABICHVILI, GEORGIA: I think that's by now the world knows everything they have to know about Vladimir Putin. If they didn't know before, if they didn't understand during the 2008 war in Georgia, whether they didn't understand during the Crimean invasion, by now I think everybody now has realized that there is this instinct to expansion, this imperialist old trend of Russia that is not going anywhere, unless it is confronted by determination, by strength.

I think the Ukrainian have put a fantastic resistance to this invasion and I think the West is also seeing that, and that the West by now knows that he has in fact the support -- it has united and that's also a very important sign, a signal to Russia that it can no longer just invade a country and see no reaction.

BERMAN: The key, you think, is to confront him with strength?

ZOURABICHVILI: It to show him that it doesn't go unanswered. And the answer doesn't have to be necessarily by force, the answer has been given by this unity of the West which is very important. I think Europe has never been as united, united in sanctions, united with the United States. What's happening in NATO, I think, is a demonstration of this unity that is a political unity in the first place, and that is very important because that's what Russia would be watching.

Russia has been seeing the unity of the Ukrainians, and it has also seen that it cannot divide Ukraine, neither between the east or west, neither between pro-Russians or anti-Russians. And that is a very important to see (INAUDIBLE) with Ukraine and I think that the European unity is another very important (INAUDIBLE). BERMAN: You personally were involved in negotiations with and around

Russia in their presence in Georgia. What did you learn about negotiating with the Russians?

ZOURABICHVILI: The negotiations with Russians, first of all one has to say that it was a different time, and probably a different Putin. But still, the negotiations, you have to be firm, knowing where are your red lines and knowing what it is that you can put to compromise. So it's very important to have forehand knowledge of what is it that you want to get out of the negotiations.

I think for us it was very clear at the time, we wanted the Russian military bases out of the country and that was a result that we got. But I must say I think it is an exception. It has never been repeated anywhere. And I'm not sure that Russia today is ready to repeat that type of negotiation.

BERMAN: One of the things that I hear from almost every Ukrainian that I speak with is they say if Putin wins here in Ukraine, he will not stop in Ukraine.

[10:25:08]

Do you agree with that, and do you personally fear for Georgia if Putin is successful here in Ukraine?

ZOURABICHVILI: Well, I think that at large it's true, and that's why it's so important. I think that already Russia has lost a lot in Ukraine, and that is something that the Ukrainians themselves have won by themselves because Russia has not shown that it is all powerful. It has not shown that it can overcome Ukrainians in a matter of days, it has not shown that its military is so efficient as what the world thought. So all of that are victories of the Ukrainians already.

But I think that it's important that this unity remains, the unity of the Ukrainians, the support of the outside world, the sanctions, what Russia probably expects and that will be probably another disillusion for Russia, probably it expects that the sanctions will not last. And I think that this time this won't be true.

And whether Georgia will be the next one, that's a very difficult question. I hope not, we have been the first one, so I hope that it's not going to be repeated, but nobody can be sure of anything, nobody can be sure of what would be the reaction of Russia in front of a defeat and nobody can know what the reaction will be in front of half result, half victory. So we are there, we are very close. We have already occupied territories. We have two military bases in those occupied territories.

So of course we are very vulnerable and of course it's very important that the world looks also at Georgia, looks out toward Moldova. It's of course centered on Ukraine because that's where the main things are happening and where the decision on the ground have been happening, but at the same time, and I hope that will be the case during the NATO summit, I hope it's the case in the E.U. negotiations on the candidatures. It's very important that we are not forgotten and that is my call, that is the reason of my visits in Brussels to talk to our partners and to be sure that Georgia is on their mind.

BERMAN: President Salome Zourabichvili, you were the first ones in Georgia. You don't want to be the next ones. I certainly understand that. Thank you so much for being with us today.

ZOURABICHVILI: Thank you.

BERMAN: Poppy.

HARLOW: Happening now, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson is facing her second and final round of questions from the senators after what turned out to be a relatively contentious day of hearings yesterday on the hill. What we're watching for today is next.

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