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President Biden Heading to Brussels; Ukraine Counterattack. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 23, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:20]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thank you for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Don Lemon is with us in Lviv, Ukraine.

And as Europe agonizes over its worst crisis since World War II, President Biden embarks on one of the most important presidential trips in years. He is on his way to Brussels to meet with NATO allies tomorrow and to announce yet more sanctions on Russia. The latest Western measures are taking shape, as Ukraine beats back Russian forces, launching a counteroffensive near the capital.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Northeast of Kyiv, Russian and Ukrainian forces trade gunfire.

CNN has geolocated and verified the authenticity of this video of the firefight posted on social media. And west of the capital, Ukrainian forces have freed the town of Makariv. In Kyiv's northwestern suburb Irpin, Ukrainian troops are set to now control 80 percent of the city.

The goal? Prevent Russian troops from encircling the capital and cut off their desperately needed supplies of food and fuel.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is in Brussels for us Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. And Phil Black is in Lviv here with me.

We're going to start with Phil Mattingly.

Phil, what our President Biden's priorities when he meets with NATO allies?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don, the president's expected to land here in a couple hours for really the highest-stakes diplomatic trips certainly of his presidency, when it comes to Europe, probably the highest stakes an American president has had in decades.

And when you talk to U.S. officials, they make clear the goals are really twofold, one, maintain the unity that has really defined the Western alliance over the course of the last month, but also ramp up pressure on President Vladimir Putin.

And that will include a series of issues that have been the subject of negotiation over the course of the last several days, ramping up sanctions on individuals, Russian lawmakers, Russian oligarchs, also trying to put in place measures that will block attempts to evade the sanctions that are already in place, the sweeping sanctions across different economic spheres of the Russian economy.

Also, we have heard discussion about increased NATO troop posture in Eastern European countries. That will be ramped up over the course of the coming days and weeks. And I think there's a continued discussion, Wolf -- or, Don, when you talk to U.S. officials and also European officials over here about the recognition of two things, one, that they don't see any near-term end to this conflict.

And, two, the fact that the fighting on the ground has reached a stalemate level has drawn palpable concerns about what President Vladimir Putin may do next. You heard the president earlier today talk about a very real threat of chemical warfare.

The NATO secretary-general, Jens Stoltenberg, talked about that today as well. So you mix all of those together, plus the just sheer number of meetings that the president's going to have over the course of the next 24 hours, you recognize the urgency, the very real concern and the desire, both on the U.S. side, but also the European side as well, to come up with new ways to increase pressure and hopefully in their minds shifted dynamic that, up to this point, has remained very steadily in the form of Russia only escalating, showing no signs of de-escalation, Don.

LEMON: That's from Phil Mattingly in Brussels.

To Phil Black here in Lviv.

Everyone has been surprised by the resolve of the Ukrainian military. What is the very latest on the Ukrainian military gaining ground in the capital city of Kyiv?

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so they have clawed back territory, Don, to the west and the northwest of the capital.

It is an extraordinary achievement in itself, because a month ago, when this war started, no one was predicting this sort of a scenario. The Ukrainians were supposed to be overwhelmed very quickly.

How have they done it? Well, I think this video shot in the northeast, just northeast of the city, a battle at a train station, really shows how they have been fighting. You see these Ukrainian defenders, a small group of them, under fire, returning fire, and one of them standing out in the open repeatedly firing and reloading a rocket- propelled grenade.

It gives a sense of the spirit with not just of the defense, but now the counterattack as well. This is not just morale-boosting. It could, if they can hold this ground -- and it's a big if -- they have to hold and consolidate this territory. It could prevent Russia from continuing to encircle the capital, Kyiv.

And that could have a big impact on the course of the war. LEMON: Especially if Russia doesn't get help from folks like the Belarusians, or Belarus. Then they can possibly continue to hold.

But you said that is a bib if.

I want to turn now to Barbara Starr, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Ukrainian -- Ukraine, I should say, has received its first deliveries from the latest round of military aid from the U.S. And President Biden also wants to talk to NATO allies about the force posture along the eastern edge.

Can you share our new reporting on this, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, what we have learned is, President Biden has been given a series of options by the Pentagon.

[13:05:04]

Whether things are actually decided with finality in Brussels remains to be seen. He wants to talk to the allies, as does Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who's accompanying him on the trip. Here's what they're looking at.

There's some ideas out there about beefing up U.S. forces even further, possibly additional rotational forces. They go in and out of the eastern flank, possibly some permanent increase in U.S. force structure in Europe and even the notion, if the allies want it, would they build a new massive military base somewhere in Europe, a much more permanent presence?

And what this really goes to, of course, is that Vladimir Putin has changed the face of international security in Europe now in such a profound way. Many people believe it will never be able to go back to the way it was. This is now the new security structure in Europe, the alliance, the NATO alliance looking at what they need to do to bolster it even further, and to make sure the Russians don't make any further advances -- Don.

LEMON: All right, Phil, Phil, Barbara, thank you very much. I appreciate that.

That's the latest in the region -- Ana, going to send it back to you in New York now.

CABRERA: Thank you all.

Let's continue this conversation. And Ambassador Richard Haass is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations. He's the author of "The World: A Brief Introduction." And he joins us now.

A pleasure to have you with us. Thanks for taking the time.

What's your advice, Ambassador Haass, as these NATO leaders go into this summit? RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, they have obviously got to continue to do things to strengthen Ukraine militarily.

One thing I have been thinking about and suggesting is, we ought to think about providing it some anti-ship missiles to go after those Russian naval vessels that are doing all the shelling of southern cities. We ought to be looking at ways we can...

CABRERA: So, they don't have those yet?

HAASS: Apparently not. I don't see any evidence that they do.

We ought to be looking at ways to tighten the sanctions, though the single most important sanction to tighten is European thirst for Russian energy. Is there any way to accelerate the reduction in demand in Germany and other European countries for Russian gas? That would be critical.

And then they have also got to think several steps ahead. What are we prepared to do if Mr. Putin decides to expand the war, say, to Poland? What do we do if he does use, God forbid, chemical or nuclear weapons inside Ukraine? What about cyberattacks on one or more NATO countries?

I think it would be really useful if the leaders went through the various scenarios, because, should these things happen, that is not the time to begin the conversation. That's the time to come to decision.

CABRERA: In terms of what more can be done, President Biden is expected to announce new sanctions on hundreds of members of Russia's Duma. That's the country's lower legislative body.

Do you see that as a game-changer?

HAASS: In a word, no.

These are not people who have significant power. They don't have access to power. I'm not, per se, against that, but we shouldn't kid ourselves. These are symbolic sanctions, not serious ones.

CABRERA: Right.

And they already sanctioned some of the Duma members. And so this would just expand the list. And, of course, we aren't seeing resignations or major pushback on Putin from those lawmakers in the face of these personal sanctions at this point.

What do you make of the reporting, though, from Russian state media that a Russian government insider, Anatoly Chubais, Putin's special representative on the environment, has quit his post? Because my understanding is this guy was an early Putin supporter. He gave him his first Kremlin job in the mid-'90s. So they go way back.

HAASS: Look, if things like this are true, it's to be welcome. My hunch is, he won't be the last. And, indeed, Mr. Putin is already moving against some of his security

and military leaders, almost in a preemptive strike against them. I think he wants to scapegoat people for his own failures militarily. And I think he wants to preempt by going after those who might be in a position to organize something against him.

The fact that somebody like Mr. Chubais leaving is simply a sign that the more Westernized Russian elites understand that Mr. Putin is driving the country over the ledge.

CABRERA: Is it your sense that Putin is getting weaker in terms of his standing in his country and obviously around the world?

HAASS: Russia is objectively getting weaker. Militarily, it's been shown to be in some ways a Potemkin army. Economically, obviously, it's considerably weaker. Its appeal is less around the world.

But I don't assume that Putin internally is weaker. I would like that to be the case. So far, though, he seems to have control of the streets. And we honestly don't know whether there are those with some power or access to him who might be organizing against him.

Let me put it this way. If we know about it, he's going to know about it. So it's probably just as well we don't know.

[13:10:03]

CABRERA: So far President Biden has let the European leaders and other allied counterparts do the talking with Putin directly, keeping the U.S. at arm's length. Clearly, this is intentional.

Why do you think that is?

HAASS: We don't want to turn this into a U.S.-Russia confrontation. That would very much play into Putin's distorted narrative.

We want to make this aggression against Europeans, against Ukraine in particular. And at the end of the day, it's going to be Mr. Zelenskyy and the legitimate government of Ukraine that's going to have to decide what they are prepared to compromise in order to get this war to stop, in order to get Russian forces out of their country.

CABRERA: How long can the U.S. stick to this strategy, though? Does ending this conflict at some point involve or require a face-to-face between President Biden and President Putin, Do you think?

HAASS: My view is, if we actually had reason to believe that a face- to-face meeting, one carefully coordinated between the United States and its European allies and with Ukraine, would serve any purpose, I wouldn't be against it.

Diplomacy is a tool of national security. It's a means to an end. But there's no reason to believe that Mr. Putin is willing to significantly compromise. And to give him the show of diplomacy and of acceptance and legitimacy without real reason to believe that everything's wired and we're going to have an acceptable result, I wouldn't go ahead with it, again, unless I was confident of what the outcome would be.

CABRERA: Putin's top spokesman didn't rule out the use of nuclear weapons. Do you think Putin is actually contemplating this?

HAASS: Look, again, we don't know. They never defined the word existential. They said it could be used if there's an existential threat.

My own hunch is, they're likely bluffing here. They want to intimidate us into backing down from some of our support of Ukraine. But, look, I think we have learned we can't rule anything out with Mr. Putin. This was a war of choice that he initiated. He's a one-man band. There's not really institutions in Russia anymore. He is the center of decision-making.

So, again, I think, right now, with the president going to Europe, we ought to figure out what we need to do to deter any possible Russian use of nuclear weapons, and we ought to start thinking through how we might respond to it.

CABRERA: Ambassador Richard Haass, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for making time for us. I hope you will come back soon.

HAASS: Be happy to.

CABRERA: So, Ukraine is retaking ground, we hear, from Russian soldiers suffering from bad leadership, heavy losses, supply issues, even frostbite. Where do things stand right now? We will discuss.

Plus, Supreme Court nominee Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson right now, live pictures, as she faces senators for a second day of questioning, and she was pressed on a Trump-related opinion where she stated presidents are not kings.

That and much more just ahead.

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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This refrigerator truck represents another side of this war. It's parked outside a city morgue.

And city officials say that it is partially filled with the bodies of some 350 Russian soldiers. There is another refrigerator truck, they say, that is parked in another part of the city with around 400 Russian corpses.

And when you come to this side here, you can smell the stench of cadavers. The Ukrainian officials say that they are conducting DNA tests of the Russian dead and that they are then going to send these bodies to the Ukrainian capital to eventually be returned to Russia and to the families for proper burial. Ivan Watson, CNN, Dnipro, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Just one more sign there pointing in the wrong direction for Russia right now.

I want to bring in Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, a CNN military analyst who was the commanding general of Europe and the Seventh Army.

And, General, U.S. defense officials estimate up to 10,000 Russian military dead. That includes at least five Russian generals, according to Ukrainian officials. Plus, they have heavy equipment losses. There are morale issues, supply shortages, reports of frostbite among Russian troops.

And now you have Ukrainian officials saying Ukrainian fighters are starting to take back territory. All this together, what does it tell you?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it tells me two things, Ana. And I have been saying this from the very beginning.

First of all, I'd say that the troops killed number that's been advertised by many, I think that's lowballing the figure. You also have many thousands who have deserted their equipment, who have walked off the field. So you're seeing a stalled Russian force. They cannot continue the offensive. It's been this way for over 10 days now.

And what you're seeing is the Ukrainian forces, both their army and their territorials, conducting what's known as an active defense. They're still defending their cities, especially Kyiv, but they are going out on minimum offenses in order to kill the Russian forces who are consolidated around those cities.

And they are having great effects, because their morale is much higher, morale being a combination of faith in their leadership, faith in their training and their equipment, that -- an understanding of what their true mission is, and the ability to do the things that they need to do.

You don't have those same kind of morale issues within the Russian army. They don't know -- they're incompetent in terms of their training and their leadership primarily.

CABRERA: I just want to underscore what you said, that you believe this 10,000 Russian troop killed number is lowball.

[13:20:05]

When you think about that, I mean, that is more than the U.S. lost in terms of our military personnel in both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan over the course of two decades.

And here we are just a month into this invasion. And that's what we're talking about.

I do want to play what we're hearing from a Ukrainian soldier today. Listen to what he said about the Russian forces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAZAR REIKIN, UKRAINIAN ARMY MEMBER: I could say that they have some problems with their tactic, with their strategy, I don't understand why they not so efficient and as they could be, but, yes, they are professionals. That is -- definitely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: We know Russia has caused tremendous damage in Ukraine, but they are struggling to hang onto territory, especially when you are talking about Irpin and Makariv, so just a little northwest of Kyiv.

What do you see as the biggest issue or problem for Russia right now? Is it poor leadership? Is it a lack of preparation, a lack of motivation by the Russian forces?

HERTLING: All of those things, plus you add into those supply issues. This has been the one point that I have made since the beginning of this campaign. They do not have enough forces. first of all, for all of their objectives, Ana.

Remember, we were talking about 190,000 Russian forces surrounding Ukraine just a couple of weeks ago. Not all of those are fighters. In an army at any given time, less than half of the total force are fighters. The other half are the supporters. They don't seem to have a logistical plan.

Their commanders are inept and have not done the things they needed to do to execute the kinds of things. Where you see all those arrows on the map board, each one of those is a different assault, and you have got to have a lot of force, an overwhelming force, in the attack against the defense.

There are some theorists that say it's got to be a 3-1 advantage. From the very beginning, they did not have enough force to conduct those various attacks throughout a country. And if you circle the -- do a full moon or half-moon around the eastern part of Ukraine, that's 1,400 miles from Chernihiv down to Crimea.

So you're talking about a long distance requiring support, requiring command-and-control. Each one of those areas requires a multiple troop formation. And what I'd say, in having seen the Russians train and exercise, they have not prepared well for the kinds of things they're asking their soldiers to do.

And the soldiers are not trained that well in the Russian army. They have their conscription period for the most part. They don't get to learn. They don't get to fire their tank rounds as much as a U.S. military force does. Their infantry tactics are very poor, and their junior level leaders aren't the kind of sergeants that we have in our army. CABRERA: Well, and as we pointed out earlier, a number of generals have apparently died in this fighting, so they don't have leadership to tell them what to do at this stage, at least in some of these cases.

Let me switch for a moment and talk about U.S. forces, because we're learning today the Pentagon provided the White House some options for potential additional U.S. troops to head to Eastern Europe. Already, we know the U.S. has repositioned about 15,000 military personnel in reaction to Russian aggression, with a total of about 100,000 troops in Europe right now, according to a senior U.S. defense official.

Does it make sense to you to send more U.S. troops to Europe?

HERTLING: It does, Ana.

And I'm smiling because, when I was the commander there in 2011 and 2012, we were -- we set up an actual series of briefings for leadership in the United States to say, this is what we needed for a reemerging Russia. But because of the wars and because of other factors, they weren't given.

Where Don Lemon was the other night in Novo Selo, Bulgaria, and another base in Constanta, Romania, those two bases were built. There are literally bases there already waiting for brigade -- U.S. Army brigade combat teams to fall into them.

Poland has also said, we will host U.S. soldiers. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania have all said, we would also like U.S. forces in our country. So these sizes that we're talking about, repositioning the forces that are already there, the two U.S. combat brigades, the Stryker brigade and an airborne brigade out of Italy, it's easy to start seeing that those troops adding up.

But it's, what more troops could they give? Right now, there are currently two other armored brigades of about 5,000 soldiers each already in Europe. Those are the rotational forces that Barbara Starr was talking about.

CABRERA: Yes.

HERTLING: It would be very easy to send more forces there, because there are stocks that they can draw from and just getting the soldiers on the ground.

This does not surprise me at all. And, in fact, it's a plan that the U.S. military has had on the books for about 10 years.

[13:25:00]

CABRERA: General, I want to end with this, because my heart is so heavy every time I think about and read about what's happening in Mariupol.

And when you take a look at this just devastating video out of this city, Mariupol, as someone who has led troops and made decisions about who or what to attack, what's your reaction? What goes through your mind when you see this level of devastation?

HERTLING: Well, my emotional response, Ana, is just like yours.

Any professional soldier would say this is criminal, because it is. And I can understand, from any point of view, why the Russian military would be doing this. There is no purpose in this. There is no strategic, operational or tactical objective to doing these kind of things to a thriving city.

It's just murder on a large scale. And that's why I have been saying for a while these are all war crimes. There is no tactical advantage of leveling a city like this, displacing hundreds of thousands of people, women and children, old people, sick people. They're -- it's just unfathomable to me that any military force in the world would do something like that.

And I can only say it's horrific and criminal and Mr. Putin and his generals, by the way, should be punished for this.

CABRERA: Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you very much.

The help can't get in. The victims can't get out, Russians stealing the buses meant to evacuate people trapped in Mariupol.

And then there's this, another symbol of Ukrainian strength, this cellist, citizen of Kharkiv, playing on the war-torn streets of that city. This musician hopes his performances will raise money to help rebuild after this war.

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