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Ukraine Fighting to Take Back Territory From Russia; Ukrainian Forces Stall Russians Around Kyiv; Mariupol Remains Main Target for Relentless Attacks; Kremlin Claims Russia is Not Hitting Civilian Targets; Invasion Against Ukraine Evokes Russian Tactics in Syria. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired March 23, 2022 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone, a very warm welcome to our viewers joining us here in the United States and all around the world. I am Rosemary Church in Atlanta. We are following the breaking news coverage of the war in Ukraine, just ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a serious operation with a serious purpose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ukrainians are going a bit more on the offense now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Each day Mariupol is destroyed more and more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are praying every day here. Praying for my brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the opportunity for peace can take root, it is time to end this absurd conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN's breaking news.

CHURCH: It is Wednesday, March 23rd, 10:00 a.m. in Ukraine. Where for the first time since the Russian invasion nearly a month ago, Ukrainian forces are launching counter attacks against Russia and seeing small signs of progress. According to a senior U.S. defense official, Ukraine is fighting to retake the town of Izyum in the country's east. Now we are told Russia moved military vehicles they are to cut off the Ukrainian Army in Donbas from the rest of the country. But the Pentagon says Russian forces in Ukraine have lost some combat power.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We have seen indications that the Ukrainians are going a bit more on the offense now. They have been defending very smartly, very nimbly, very creatively in places that they believe are the right places to defend. And we have seen them now in places particularly in the south, near Kherson. They have tried to regain territory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: In Kyiv several large explosions rang out on Tuesday while the capital was under curfew. One of the blast was so powerful it set of car alarms in the city's center meanwhile, intense fighting is erupting on the out skirts of the capital.

You are watching a shoot-out next to a train station in a village northeast of Kyiv. A local politician who posted the video claims these are Chechen immigrants who fled the wars with Russia and are now taking up arms to defend Ukraine. CNN cannot verify that information though.

Well, Kyiv regional police toured Makariv and posted video of the destruction. They say Makariv is still being shelled and there's almost no one left. Ukrainian forces have managed to halt Russia's advance on many fronts. And Moscow's response so far has been to bombard cities with missiles and artillery. Phil Black reports this war is turning urban area to rubble and taking a never growing toll on human lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ukrainian forces are pushing back close to the capital. They say they've regained control of this road and the surrounding area. It's Makariv, a short drive west from Kyiv. The head of the region's police released this video of his visit soon after, it shows him reclaiming a melted Ukrainian flag from the local police station.

He says Makariv is still under fire and every second a civilian building is damaged or destroyed. There isn't much left. But if Ukraine can now hold this ground, it could prove crucial in stopping Russian forces from encircling the capital.

In Ukraine's east, the city of Kharkiv hacking. Another much wanted price for the invading force has reported a noticeable increase in Russian munitions fired from a far. Intelligence assessments from Western governments say that's happening more because fighting up close isn't going Russia's way.

[04:05:00]

But still no city in Ukraine has been bombarded like Mariupol. There is only daily torment for the hundreds of thousands still under siege there.

SERGEI ORLOV, MARIUPOL DEPUTY MAYOR: Each day Mariupol is destroyed more and more. Till now in our estimation about 90 percent of our infrastructure is damaged and destroyed. City is under continuous bombing, from 50 bombs to 100 bombs Russian aircraft drops each day.

BLACK (voice-over): But Vladimir Putin's spokesman is still comfortable saying this. DMITRI PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESMAN: Our military are targeting only military goals and military objects on the territory of Ukraine not civil ones. Russian military are not hitting civil aims, civil charges.

BLACK (voice-over): One of the still unanswered questions of this conflict, how great are Russian losses on the battlefield? The Russian tabloid Komsomolskaya Pravda appeared briefly to know the answer. In a report published Monday, it said 9,861 deaths had been recorded by Russia's Defense Ministry with more than 16,000 wounded. Then much later that day, the report was edited, and the numbers removed. The tabloid said it was hacked, and someone inserted false information.

The published figure is notable because it tracks with U.S. Defense Department estimates of up to 10,000 Russian deaths in Ukraine. After four weeks, Russia's invasion is stalled with little momentum and no significant wins. No problem says President Putin spokesman.

PESKOV: We're speaking about special military operation that is going on, and it is going on strictly in accordance with the plans and with purposes that were established beforehand.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: And Phil black joins us now live from Lviv. Good to see you, Phil. So, Russia have been firing on the critical coastal city of Mariupol from the Sea of Azov -- that's according to a senior U.S. defense official -- and then near Kyiv we have seen an incredible gun battle. What more are you learning about all this?

BLACK (on camera): Yes, so Rosemary, there's a mixed picture across Ukraine. There is clear evidence of Ukrainian forces fighting back, fighting to regain territory from Russia. Not just at Makariv and near Kyiv -- as you saw in the story -- but at Izyum in the east, Kherson and Mykolaiv in the south -- that's according to U.S. defense officials. Who describe the Ukrainians as agile, nimble, fighting hard.

And yes, you get a real sense of that from this video which shows an intense fire fight northeast of Kyiv. There is a small band of Ukrainian defenders clearly fighting very hard. One of them standing in open ground repeatedly firing a rocket propelled grenade into the distance.

But we are also getting regular evidence of what they are up against. It reminds us of the power of the Russian war machine. This video shows a Russian naval ship on the Black Sea off the coast of Crimea firing a volley of cruise missiles. Powerful weapons that could be striking across a very wide area because of their range.

And at the port city of Mariupol on the Sea of Azov, it is increasingly difficult to get information out of that besieged city to have an accurate sense of what is happening there day by day. But satellite images do confirm what we're hearing. And that is that the indiscriminate bombardment continues. There is clearly day by day more and more destruction. The deputy mayor there told us that 90 percent of the city's infrastructure had been damaged in some way.

What those satellite images don't show is the suffering on the ground, the people hiding out in those buildings, many people still thought to be hundreds of thousands getting by on very little food and water, clearly in great fear.

We heard for some day now that Russian naval ships on the Sea of Azov had turned their weapons on Mariupol as well. The U.S. defense officials believe that, yes, there's a group of about seven naval ships there, some of which have joined the attack on Mariupol.

So, one month into this war, there's plenty of evidence that shows how unequal, how miss matched the opposing sides are even as Ukraine defends fiercely and goes on the counterattack. And Russia is still struggling to really build up any momentum and yet to claim any of its key military goals -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: All right, many thanks to Phil Black joining us from Lviv, appreciate it.

Well, the Kremlin spokesperson is refusing to rule out the possibility that Russia will use nuclear weapons in Ukraine. In an exclusive interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour, Dmitry Peskov said Russia's goals include demilitarizing Ukraine and changing it from an anti- Russian country to a neutral one. He also claims Russia is not targeting civilians.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[04:10:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: The real question is what is President Putin's strategic goal in blasting the civilian infrastructure of places like Mariupol which we are watching turn to smithereens for the last several weeks now. What's the strategic goal?

DMITRY PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESMAN: Well, the strategic goal is to clear up the Mariupol from nationalistic regiments. Who are there in a heavily covered environment and by the way, they are simply not letting people out from the town and this is a problem. Because now we are receiving lots of refugees coming from there. And they seem to tell us, they're eye witnesses, they seem to tell us that they were used like a shield.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: We need to be clear here, of course, Russia has, in fact, hit many civilian targets, hospitals, bomb shelters, apartment buildings and aid convoys and Ukraine says Russian forces stole 11 buses on Tuesday meant to evacuate people from Mariupol.

Well, CNN's senior international correspondent Jim Bittermann is following developments live from Paris. He joins us now. Good to see you, Jim. So, it is chilling to hear a Putin spokesman refusing to rule out the use of nuclear weapons in Ukraine. What is the latest on reaction across Europe to this and other things that he said? JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's

pretty interesting. I mean I think kind of reflected the kind of paranoia that we're hearing from not only the Kremlin but Vladimir Putin himself. The idea that poor mother Russia is misunderstood by the outside world. No one understands the threats that they are under. So, they have to strike. And this whole use of nuclear weapons question came up in that interview in a very clear way. Here's a little bit of what Peskov had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PESKOV: You can read all the reasons for nuclear arms to be used. So, if it is an existing threat for our country, then it can be used in accordance with our concept.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BITTERMANN: So, it's an existential threat. But the question is, who's going to judge whether or not it's an existential threat. The Russians feel really encircled. And in fact, as Peskov seems to indicate that they do, they can say it's an existential threat at any time so it's a really dangerous situation. And we don't know where it's headed.

The other thing that Peskov said in that interview was that there's no fear of opposition to people like Alexey Navalny. Who almost at the same time that interview was being conducted was sentenced to nine more years at hard labor. He's the opposition figure that Russians tried to poison at one point and then they sentenced him to 2 1/2 years of jail which he's already served and now 9 more years.

So, he says that in fact it's not a threat but yet there's that. And there's the duma, Russian duma, the parliament which is apparently going to extend the kind of draconian laws they have to against criticizing the army, to include criticizing any of the government functions in Russia.

So, it all leads to what Human Rights Watch president said was seeming and a determination by the Kremlin to isolate Russian society from the outside world, to cut Russians off from uncomfortable facts -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: Jim Bittermann joining us live from Paris. Many thanks for that.

Well for many Ukrainians escaping Russian attacks is a chaotic, dangerous and sometimes deadly ordeal. Coming up, emotional scenes across the border in Poland as one family is finally reunited.

Plus, we will hear more from the first black woman nominated to the U.S. Supreme Court as Republican Senators grill her over race, crime and Guantanamo Bay.

[04:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. Well, the U.N. Refugee Agency says

more than 3 1/2 million people have now fled Ukraine and more than 6 million others are internally displaced. Western Europe is ramping up preparations for an influx of refugees. France is opening up housing and employment assistance for at least 100,000 people and Ireland's deputy Prime Minister says he expects 40,000 refugees to arrive by the end of next month.

The World Health Organization says about half a million refugees in Poland alone need additional support for mental health and emotional distress. Many refugees fleeing the violence have reached safety in neighboring countries after harrowing ordeals. CNN's Ed Lavandera met one such family as they finally reunited.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tucked away in the back of the train station in Przemysl, Poland, we see the latest train from Ukraine arrive, filled with families escaping war.

And it's where we find Tatiana Trut and her husband Vitali, waving joyfully at one of the carriages. This train is carrying special cargo. Through the metal barricades, Tatiana sees her son, two sisters and their three children walking off the train. She's waited three excruciating weeks for this moment.

LAVANDERA: You have a very big smile on your face. I imagine you're very happy right now.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Yes, he says. It's very scary there and we have been waiting for them for a very long time. Tatiana also tells us they could not leave for a long time.

The family tells us their journey to get to Poland was a path through death and destruction. They live in a small village south of Kyiv.

[04:20:00]

They say the only road Ukrainian civilians could use to escape was constantly attacked by Russian forces.

He says, there was shelling from both sides. Everyone who wanted to leave by car was simply shot. We were afraid that if our family decided to leave, we would lose them. We waited a long time for the military to allow it. We waited for the Russian troops to be removed so that our family could leave and we succeeded. We immediately told them to go.

This was the escape route the sister's father drove them in his car from their village to the city of Mykolaiv. From there they jumped in a mini bus helping families escape to Odessa. That's where they boarded the train that brought them to Poland.

The area this family escaped has seen brutal warfare the last three weeks. Tatiana was in Poland working and couldn't return home in time when the war broke out. She says her son often told her about hearing military planes flying over their home and missiles exploding.

Finally, the family is reunited outside the train station. In the moment, it seemed unnecessary to ask Tatiana what this moment meant to her. Sometimes hugs and kisses speak far louder than words.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Przemysl, Poland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: It has been almost a month since Russia invaded Ukraine and Russia's tactics and the West response are drawing comparisons to the war in Syria. Survivors of that conflict recognize the Russian playbook all too well as they see it used in Ukraine. Here is some earlier reporting on Syria from CNN's Jomana Karadsheh.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Syria is where Russia boasted about testing more than 300 types of weapons. It's also where it tested the world's limits and there seemed to be none. Its war has no rules. No one is spared and no place is safe. Russia's bombed hospitals, markets and schools. The U.N. called them war crimes but no one has faced justice. Russia denies it's committed these crimes but its cruel attacks know no bounds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: And on the right side of your screen, you see images of Aleppo, Syria from 2016. On the left side you see images of Mariupol, Ukraine, from just three days ago. The harrowing accounts coming out of Mariupol are hauntingly similar to those from Aleppo where people were besieged and bombed into submission.

Well, joining me now from London is Emma Beals. She is a nonresident scholar at the Middle East Institute and a senior adviser at the European Institute of Peace. Thank you so much for being with us.

EMMA BEALS, NON-RESIDENT SCHOLAR, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: Thank you, Rosemary.

CHURCH: So, you have written that there are many lessons Ukraine can learn from Russia's military operations in Syria, particularly Russia's approach to cease fires and humanitarian corridors. And we've already witnessed the horror of Russians shelling civilians trying to flee their cities even when those corridors have been negotiated and agreed upon. And no aid is going in through those corridors to the civilians left behind. Does Russia ignore even the most basic rules of war?

BEALS: It would appear so. I mean, it's what we saw in Syria and it seems to be what we are seeing in Ukraine as well. The military strategy by and large doesn't abide by international law or differentiate between military and civilian targets. So, that's through the use of siege. But the use of siege like we're seeing in Mariupol that is designed to force surrender. And then also, in those sieges, where ouster as well like we're seeing

in Ukraine and what like we saw in Syria. You know, the denial of humanitarian assistance, the targeting of civilians and civilians areas like markets, attacking humanitarian infrastructure, like hospitals and schools or even shelters. And all of this is designed with one thing in mind really which is the capitulation of the population. And that's why we see also the problems with negotiations around corridors, the ability to use those corridors and a humanitarian aid (INAUDIBLE) as well.

Yes, it appears to be win at any cost. Follow no rules along the way. And of course, what about fruitless efforts so far to negotiate an end to this war. And of course, the outright lies, Russia first saying it had no intentions of invading, then doing just that. And also denying the targeting of civilians.

[04:25:00]

We've seen evidence, endless evidence of that. So, how does Ukraine negotiate a cease-fire with Russia if the word of their leaders means absolutely nothing and can't be trusted?

BEALS: Well, it does make it really very difficult. At a practical level we are seeing some, you know, what seemed like successful negotiations for corridors and the difficulty that in some places they do come to fruition, right. There is a corridor that is offered at negotiations. But in others there are not or there are difficulties. We're seeing people being shot trying to use those negotiated corridors. We're seeing Russia use some of the same tactics in Syria. Offer the corridor and then say they can only go to Russia where people are going to feel safe. Or you know, do it so quickly that people don't have time to actually use it or they can't get the right coms through. You know, with communications down in some of those areas.

So, it's not just negotiations, it's actually the implementation, you know, as well. We're seeing also Russia manipulating some these diplomatic channels. Not just the negotiations but international systems, right. So, trying to get text into the Security Council resolution that they proposed last week and are still proposing this week -- that is looking to create new text or being able to attack civilian areas for being able to gain control of the humanitarian system. Even though, you know, the Ukrainian government should be the primary actor with regard to negotiating humanitarian access inside of Ukraine.

And so, all of that I think involves just learning those lessons, being smarter than they are, really being on the lookout for those things that they are trying to do. I think this is going to get more difficult. We're already seeing some of that in the international tier in the last couple of days, you know, with the Russian disinformation system getting up and running. We're seeing them their tried and tested approach as to the kind of rewrite truth, particularly with a focus on states that are outside of their immediate Western coalition around Ukraine. You know, in Mariupol we saw the last Associated Press journalists

leave because they were being targeted by Russia specifically because they could bring the truth and assist with those negotiations based on their troops. So, I think we need to watch out for Russia increasing their attempts to rewrite what's happening in those spaces. Because it really does impact the ability to negotiate those cease-fires, you know, to negotiate that axis. If there are disputes about, you know, even what ends up happening on the ground.

CHURCH: Just very quickly, we also know that some Ukrainian refugees have been taken against their will to Russia. What will likely happen to those refugees if the war in Syria is any guide?

BEALS: Well, I think, you know, at some level we have to differentiate between the context, right. So, the, you know, the Syrian government has a role to play in Syria. So, those people are being taken to Russia. We can't necessarily judge what's going to happen to the invasion, what happens in government areas in Syria. One would hope that they would be given, you know, an immediate opportunity to return to an area that they wish to be in. Whether that's Ukrainian controlled, you know, a neighboring country where they feel more safe. And I think that we should absolutely continue to be pushing in all of these negotiations for the respect of international law, for people to be able to reach safety, you know, for these manipulations to cease basically.

CHURCH: Emma Beals, thank you so much for your perspective. Appreciate it.

BEALS: Thanks, Rosemary.

CHURCH: And still to come here on CNN. As the bombs rain down on Ukraine, President Biden is planning new sanctions against specific Russians, and we will tell you who's being targeted this time. Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: I am here standing on the shoulders of generations of Americans who never had anything close to this kind of opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: We will have details of U.S. Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson's historic confirmation hearings ahead on CNN NEWSROOM.

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