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John Kirby is Interviewed about the NATO Summit; Wesley Clark is Interviewed about U.S. and Ukraine. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired March 24, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:32:18]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The Pentagon press secretary, John Kirby. retired U.S. Navy admiral, is joining us right now.

We're here at NATO headquarters. Inside, 30 NATO allies. The leaders are meeting right now. They've got a lot on their plate right now. This is a critically important moment.

Give us the big picture. What do you see unfold?

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Big moment. Obviously, a critical time here to get the leaders together like this. There's going to be a lot on the agenda, not least of which is going to be, what's the force posture, what does the alliance look like going forward? I mean, no matter how this war ends, and obviously we want to see it end today, the security environment here in Europe has changed and will likely be different going forward. Again, whatever that looks like.

And so one of the things that alliance leaders are talking about today is, well, what should it look like? I mean here in the United States, I mean, we had, before the war, 80,000 troops in Europe. We now have 100,000. Now, those are on temporary deployments. I'm not saying that that's going to be the future footprint. But we are in the Pentagon looking at what the future footprint ought to look like to make sure that we can bolster, particularly NATO's eastern flank.

BLITZER: Because I -- you know, I look at these numbers, as a former Pentagon correspondent myself, very closely. Along the Ukraine border, the eastern European NATO allies, the number of troops, NATO allies' troops, have gone from 20,000 to 40,000 within a matter of a few weeks.

KIRBY: That's right. That's right. And you make a really good point, Wolf, it's not just the United States contributing to the eastern flank's security. It's so many of the other allies. They're hosting battle groups. We were just in Bulgaria last week. They're hosting a battle group there. There are leading battle groups, like the French and Romania. They're all chipping in. I mean it truly is an appliance effort. Now, how, again, how long these battle groups are in existence and

exactly what they're going to be doing over the long-term, we don't know yet. That's part of the discussion going on today. But it is important that the alliance stay unified. And, frankly, Wolf, having been a naval officer for 30 years, I've never seen the alliance more resolved and more determined than it is right now.

BLITZER: It's so impressive when you speak to the NATO allies right now, they are unified. They all hate what the Russians are doing in Ukraine right now.

KIRBY: They clearly do.

BLITZER: You know, under normal circumstances, when a secretary of defense or a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff calls his NATO -- his Russian counterparts, they immediately take the call, they talk, they discuss, they may disagree, but at least they're communicating. That has stopped, hasn't it?

KIRBY: We have not had a successful attempt to talk to Defense Minister Shroyu (ph), Secretary Austin's counterpart, or General Grasimov (ph), who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Milley's counterpart. Now, we've tried on several occasions in the last week or ten days and we just haven't been able to reach either one of them.

I do want to stress, though, that we still have communications with the Russians. We have a defense attache in Moscow at the embassy who can speak to his counterparts.

BLITZER: Lower level (INAUDIBLE).

KIRBY: Lower level. And we also have a deconfliction line that we're -- again, we're only using it right now to make sure that it works.

[09:35:04]

We haven't actually used it to deliver content with respect to air space confliction problems. But there are still military to military communications with Russia.

BLITZER: Well, tell our viewers what a deconfliction line means.

KIRBY: Sure.

BLITZER: Because it is so important.

KIRBY: Well, it's not unlike, in a way, what we're doing in Syria. You've got the United States and Syria still going after ISIS and you have the Russians and the Russian military still in Syria. And so because we would have the potential for U.S. aircraft to be in the same air space as Russian aircraft, we want a deconfliction line, a phone line, so you can pick up the phone and say, hey, we're doing this in such and such an area, you need to stay clear.

Well, we've set up a similar kind of line here in Europe. It's housed at the European Command headquarters in Germany, in Stuttgart. They check it once or twice a day. It's done at, as you said, a lower level, tactical level, just to make sure that when we pick it up the Russians are actually answering. So far they are. We haven't used it to deconflict any air space issues because the Russians haven't flown their aircraft close to NATO airspace. There hasn't been any close calls with NATO aircraft. But it's nice to know we've got that line. And so far it's still working.

BLITZER: Yes, our chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, is reporting right now, and I think this is also pretty significant if you see what's going on, that there are -- there's at least some discussion at a very, very serious level, what does the U.S. military -- what does the U.S. -- the Biden administration do if the Russians were, God forbid, to use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons? There's a whole group out there that discusses this all the time, right?

KIRBY: Well, I think -- look, you know, you covered the Pentagon, we're a planning organization. Our job is to think about contingencies, to think about the hypotheticals. And it wouldn't be very smart for me to get into speculating right now. We haven't seen any indications that the Russians are preparing to use weapons of mass destruction inside Ukraine. But you've heard President Biden talk about this, Wolf. If that were to happen, there would be a significant response, not just from the United States, but from the international community. And I think it's better if we don't speculate about what that response would be. We haven't seen the indications now. And, again, we continue to cull on Mr. Putin to do the right thing right now, which is end the war. He can end it right now.

BLITZER: Yes, you're not going to explain what the response would be because it follows this concept of deliberate ambiguity, let the Russians worry about what that response would be.

KIRBY: And we'll -- we'll just stay away from speculating at this point.

BLITZER: Without any speculating at this point.

KIRBY: That's right.

BLITZER: Admiral Kirby, thanks so much for joining us.

KIRBY: Great to be with you.

BLITZER: The Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby. Appreciate it very much.

Poppy, back to you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, what a critical interview in this moment. Wolf, thank you very much for that.

Still ahead, CNN speaks to two Ukrainian fighter pilots who are trained by Americans. How they're preventing Russia from taking control of the skies over their country. That's next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:19]

HARLOW: All right, you are looking at live pictures there. President Biden at NATO headquarters in Brussels. According to the planned schedule for him, he is on his way to what is known as the class photo for the G-7, where they all gather, show, you know, the world that they are united. Taking some comments here, having a discussion on his way. We'll keep a very close eye on this. And, of course, we'll bring you that class photo with G-7 leaders as soon as it comes on screen.

Let's keep monitoring this and let's also bring in Retired General Wesley Clark. He is former NATO supreme allied commander.

General Clark, thank you very much. And forgive me in advance if I need to interrupt our conversation for the president here.

But I do want to ask you if we could begin with this reporting about what our Kaitlan Collins confirmed, which is that there is now within the administration a tiger team, and the so-called tiger team, that's what they're calling it internally, has been focused for weeks now on creating contingency plans for several possible scenarios, including, God forbid, Russia using chemical weapons, for example, or biological weapons.

Can you explain what discussions are like within a unit like that, having to really prepare for the worst?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Certainly. Well, what they -- these are discussions that examine action, reaction, counteraction. So, they start with some postulance (ph) about what might be reasonable Russian uses. In other words, what can we imagine the Russians might do, where and when and what circumstances. Then they lay out what we would do or could do in response. And then they try to think through the consequences for both sides of what would happen.

So -- and it's balanced back and forth and debated a lot. And it is an amazing thing, when you put it a group of very well informed people together how a consensus can emerge, how the issues are shaped, and so forth. You know, I think this is a very, very smart way to move forward for the administration.

HARLOW: Let's take a -- General Clark, stand by, please. Let's take a quick listen here.

OK, General Clark, you -- you said recently that the world should be, in your words, expecting a frustrated Putin to do something. Can you elaborate on what you mean and also how would you, if you were in your prior post as NATO supreme allied commander, how would you be preparing for that?

[09:45:03]

CLARK: Well, I think, first of all, you have to anticipate what he might do. So, the use of chemical weapons seems to be a little bit premature, except perhaps in going after Mariupol. But it's not that significant.

So, I think the chemical weapons threat is a more far-fetched threat.

If he really wants to deter NATO involvement and he believes that he can shatter NATO, then he would perhaps use a low yield nuclear weapon. And where would he use it? Probably not in Ukraine, but perhaps on the staging areas or some populated area in Poland. This is what's usually done in the Russian exercises.

So, the way they postulate in their exercises is, that if Russia starts to use because of NATO support for the opposition, then, pow, they send a nuclear weapon in, NATO says, my goodness, we don't want a nuclear war, that would be the third world war, OK, since you're that serious about it, we'll back off.

So, this is the way the Russians have educated themselves to think about what they would do in a circumstance like this. And this is why there's so much concern on the part of the administration and other NATO leaders because we all know this.

HARLOW: As we look at these world leaders, the G-7 coming together for these photos, we also see right there as they get ready to take this photograph together, Jens Stoltenberg.

Wolf, let me bring you in here just to explain to our viewers -- and, General Clark, stay with us -- the significance of this moment. Obviously, they've been meeting behind closed doors, but this is really for the world to see, Wolf, and to send a very clear signal of unity.

BLITZER: And General Clark will really appreciate this. This is a meeting that the G-7 leaders are having here at NATO headquarters in Brussels. It's pretty unusual. And General Clark would know for sure, it's pretty extraordinary for the G-7 leaders to actually meet here. And I was just -- I want our viewers to note, the G-7 countries, the United States, Germany, Japan, the U.K., France, Italy, and Canada, along with the European Union as a group, they are meeting right now following this NATO summit of 30 NATO allies, they're meeting. And then later in the day, President Biden will attend a third round of talks with the European Union leadership, all the members of the European Union.

And, General Clark, let me just ask you, how extraordinary is it in one day, hastily organized, meetings by the president of the United States, with the NATO alliance, with the EU, and the G-7?

CLARK: That's right. And nothing is more important, really, Wolf, than the unity among these leaders. And you see the handshakes and you see the smiles, they're all under enormous pressure. And they're leaning on each other really for support, for leadership, for ideas. It's a remarkable moment.

BLITZER: It certainly is. And we're watching it, Poppy, as we -- as we see what's going on. We see these leaders. They're all -- this is a photo opportunity. They're all very, you know, very serious right now. There's a war going on. And a lot of Ukrainians, sadly, are being killed by the Russians.

HARLOW: Yes. And, General Clark, to you, as I mentioned, joining the G-7 leaders, you do have NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, just off of that announcement yesterday that NATO is doubling its battle groups along the eastern flank. Talking particularly about four of those battle groups in Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia.

Wolf made the great point to John Kirby just a few moments ago that, you know, that forces have essentially doubled from 20,000 to 40,000 in critical areas. What -- I mean, how significant is that posture change?

CLARK: Well, I think it's a -- it's an important signal for NATO agreement and resolve because these posture changes have to be unanimous. And so NATO is agreeing that it will defend itself.

But, you know, Poppy, in 1993, NATO had this debate also about whether it could go beyond its defensive areas. And in 1993, the NATO secretary-general, Manfred Worner, put out this idea. He said, NATO either has to go out of area or go out of business. And so, in the 1990s, NATO did take action in the Balkans, in Bosnia, later in Kosovo, later went to Afghanistan. So, NATO has been out of area. It's not simply going to hide behind its red lines. That's what NATO is saying right now.

So, NATO has to decide how it will be useful in preserving European security. That's its real mission. It's not just defense. What NATO recognized 25 years ago is that -- 30 years ago is it has to -- to (INAUDIBLE) to provide European defense we have to have European security.

HARLOW: Yes.

CLARK: And that (INAUDIBLE). So you have to deal with this issue in Ukraine.

[09:50:01]

You can't just ignore it.

HARLOW: General Wesley Clark, thank you so much, especially on a day like today, and a moment like this. We really appreciate it.

We do have more from Brussels ahead as we cover President Biden's emergency summit with those G-7 leaders. Our coverage continues right after this.

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HARLOW: Ukraine has so far been able to prevent the Russian air force from taking full control of Ukraine's airspace, thanks in part to the expertise of pilots trained in the United States.

CNN spoke with two Ukrainian fighter pilots this morning. They go by their call signs, "Moonfish" and "Juice."

[09:55:00]

John Berman is back with us live from Lviv, Ukraine.

I mean it's pretty extraordinary just what they've been able to accomplish and now learning more about how they've been trained.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it really is remarkable. And, by the way, they go by call signs with us because we want to protect their identities. And you'll also notice they're wearing their full gear because we didn't want people to see their faces.

These are pilots. They speak great English. Why? Because they train in the United States, right alongside American pilots. And, in some cases, they have more combat experience than most U.S. pilots. Why? Because they've been fighting the Russians in the air in the east since 2014.

And I wanted to know, Poppy, what's worked for them? How have they been able to keep it so the Russians don't have complete air superiority?

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"MOONFISH," UKRAINIAN AIR FORCE: What I would say, that combining the efforts of our fighters, as well as ground air defense, is a really good mix, is a really good match. And, yes, it is true, we feel free right now to operate in our airspace and they have control of very little part of Ukrainian sky. And that is where those brutal bombing of peaceful cities like Mariupol and Kharkiv are happening. But so far, by joining all -- like all the efforts we have, we've been able to -- we are able to keep our sky up -- out -- out of Russian.

"JUICE," UKRAINIAN AIR FORCE: Using this -- this baby, I -- I'm not effective. I'm not effective against Russian jets, or up against Russian fighters. So, we need something more advanced. Something modern. So we need western platforms. Maybe -- it could be a perfect (ph) old (ph) jets (ph) as a platform, but these new missiles and (INAUDIBLE) and other systems. To be efficient, not to be a fighting, not to be scared of Russian technology. So, we are pushing them from our border, from our port (ph) lines, but we couldn't get real full air superiority. We need something modern. We need something more advanced.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was juice with his hand on his interceptor plane wishing that he had better technology to fight the Russians. They have had some success with the technology they have, Poppy, but they are tired and they did note how hard it's been to lose some of their friends, their fellow pilots, also lose soldiers on the ground and, meanwhile, their families on the ground are being so viciously attacked by Russian forces, Poppy. HARLOW: Yes, of course, it is extraordinary to see, John. I mean we

hear so much about the success that they've had in the air. But to see them and hear from them in that way is a whole -- is a whole other level.

Thank you very much for that.

And, ahead, we are all back with you. John Wolf and I will be back ahead as President Biden meets with world leaders in this emergency summit. How can they deter Vladimir Putin and defend Ukraine from Russia's brutal aggression? Our CNN continuing coverage is next.

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BLITZER: Good morning. I'm Wolf Blitzer. We're live here in Brussels at NATO headquarters, where right now President Biden is meeting behind closed doors with the G-7 leaders. A meeting going on here at NATO -- NATO headquarters. It's truly an extraordinary series of summit meetings focusing in on the war in Ukraine.

And all this comes as NATO leaders, all 30 of them, are looking for more ways to try to protect NATO territory and support the Ukrainian people. They're expected -- they're expected to approve the deployment of four additional battle groups to protect the alliance's eastern border.

[10:00:02]

That would increase the number of NATO forces in those eastern NATO alliance countries from 20,000 to 40,000.