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Ukrainian Counterattacks; President Zelenskyy Appeals to NATO. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 24, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thanks for joining us for our special breaking news coverage, as NATO leaders meet in Brussels over Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And I'm Don Lemon. Good to be with you, Ana. I'm live in Lviv.

It is exactly one month since Russia launched this unprovoked attack on Ukraine. And the Kremlin's mighty military machine reels from more losses each and every day.

Just after dawn, a series of explosions rocked the southern port of Berdyansk, which has been occupied by Russian forces. Ukraine says it destroyed a large Russian warship, damaged two other ships and took out a fuel tank and ammo depot.

Ukrainian troops digging in and pushing back as well. Russian forces are backpedaling from Kyiv and taking defensive positions northwest of the capital. This new video captures the horrific devastation in Chernihiv in Northern Ukraine. Burning homes and burned-out vehicles line the debris-filled streets.

And we want to warn you, the next images are disturbing. New video coming in all the time, but this is the port city of Mariupol, which has endured relentless Russian shelling and attacks. One human rights group says at least 3,000 civilians have been killed as just a few days ago, yet Russians have not managed to capture it.

CABRERA: And, Don, the global fears of a potential World War III underscore an unprecedented round of crisis meetings today in Brussels. President Biden is meeting with world leaders right now from NATO and the European Council, as well as the G7.

The goal here is to support Ukraine and punish Russia. And NATO announced today it will reinforce its defenses against chemical, biological, or even nuclear weapons, amid fears that a frustrated Russia could deploy these types of weapons.

Today, in an address to NATO, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy accused Russia of using phosphorus bombs, a claim that CNN cannot verify.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I'm not accusing NATO. You are not to blame. These are not your missiles. These are not your bombs that are ruining our cities.

Today, we also suffered from Russia's attack with phosphorus bombs, killing adults and children. I just want you to know that the alliance can save Ukrainian lives from Russia strikes, from Russia's occupation if we can get all the weapons we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: CNN's Kaitlan Collins and Natasha Bertrand are in Brussels for these meetings.

Kaitlan, you heard President Zelenskyy accused Russia of using phosphorus bombs. Again, we can't confirm that. But as NATO beefs up defenses against the threat of potential chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, what does all of that involve?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We haven't confirmed that. That's right.

But we have asked the White House about it, given that's a statement that President Zelenskyy made this morning when he was beaming in via videoconference, speaking to President Biden and these other world leaders.

And this is primarily what they have been concerned about in recent days, Ana, this concern that Russia could conduct a chemical weapons attack inside Ukraine. And it's something that President Biden spoke about as he headed here to Brussels for these urgent talks with allies on precisely this invasion, now the fact that it is stretched into a month.

And the concern here today and what they are talking about -- and they are putting out a warning telling Russia not to use chemical weapons in Ukraine, but also the concern is not just what happens inside Ukraine, but if it stretches out into NATO territory, if it creates this cloud that then goes into a NATO nation, how do they respond to that, given these promises to defend every inch of NATO territory that we have seen from the White House repeatedly over the last several weeks?

And we should note this is something that White House has been preparing for, for several weeks now, because four days after the invasion, Jake Sullivan, who is President Biden's national security adviser, authorized this Tiger Team, as it's known internally, to basically map out how they would respond if Russia were to take an extreme step like this one.

Yes, they considered other options, like maybe a nuclear tactical weapon being deployed in Ukraine. They still think that's less likely, based on our reporting and what we have heard. They think a chemical weapons attack is a lot more likely. And it's been a massive concern for them.

So the question is, how does the United States respond? Does it change President Biden's calculus saying that there is not going to be a U.S. military response in Ukraine? Those are all big questions, of course, that are still facing President Biden and these other world leaders who met here today for these urgent talks that are happening right now about what this response is going to look like, and also the concerns, Ana, that this isn't going away anytime soon, because you heard the White House say it's not going to end rapidly or easily.

And they're already talking about whether or not this will still be a topic, which, of course, it will be overall, just the question of what it looks like, when these NATO leaders meet again in June for a prescheduled summit.

[13:05:02]

CABRERA: Natasha, it is notable that President Zelenskyy, in his address to NATO, no longer requested the creation of a no-fly zone, something he has been pushing for over and over and over again.

So what does he want at this stage?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, Ana.

And the request has been met with a consistent no from NATO, just saying that they do not want to impose that no-fly zone, because it would put NATO and U.S. forces directly in confrontation potentially with the Russians.

So what Zelenskyy has been asking for and what he pleaded with NATO for today in a closed-door virtual briefing to them was essentially more tanks, more jets, and more weaponry. He said, look, we have not gotten 1 percent of the stocks that you have of tanks and weapons and jets. And we could obviously use that a lot. We could use that to our benefit here. That would allow us to create momentum in our fight against the Russians.

And there's the -- basically, he was saying, we have not gotten any of that. Why is that? Asking them to please give them more support, weaponry, in order for them to maintain this momentum against the Russian onslaught here.

But the response that we're getting from the White House is that this is not going to happen at this point. They're still opposed, according to a senior U.S. official, to sending fighter jets to Ukraine, because they believe that it would be potentially highly provocative to the Russians.

So the summit today, though, really did focus on the defense of the NATO alliance. But it also focused on how can we support Ukraine in the way that we feel will not unnecessarily provoke Russia, right? So they said that they are willing to send more tanks to -- anti-tank systems to Ukraine, anti-air systems to Ukraine as well, as well as increased ammunition, things that they believe can actually help Ukraine maintain this fight against the Russians effectively. But it's getting increasingly difficult, of course, because the West

did not necessarily anticipate that Russia -- that Ukraine would be able to sustain this fight for as long as they have against the Russians. So, supplying Ukraine with those weapons that they need is going to become a challenge moving forward, Ana.

CABRERA: Natasha Bertrand and Kaitlan Collins, ladies, thank you both very much.

Let's continue this conversation with former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor and David Rothkopf. He's a columnist for The Daily Beast and "USA Today" and host of the "Deep State" radio podcast.

Gentlemen, thanks so much for being here.

As these meetings continue there in Brussels, Ambassador, beyond the show of solidarity, beyond these new sanctions against Russian government officials and Russian defense officials, the commitment for more NATO forces in Eastern Europe is another thing. What else could come from these important meetings, this big summit today?

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, Ana, the two big things, of course, are increasing the flow of weapons -- and President Zelenskyy asked for that -- you just reported on that -- and decreasing the room that the Russians have economically.

So open the spigot of weapons and tighten the noose on sanctions. Also, it's good to have addressed the refugee problem, and the United States both willing to take on -- take in with refugees, as well as providing assistance to those nations in Eastern Europe and others in Europe that are welcoming Ukrainian refugees as well.

So that's a big thing. I would just like to comment on your report that President Zelenskyy did not ask for a no-fly zone. And he didn't ask to be a member of NATO. But he did ask for security guarantees. And I think that is something that he would be asking several nations, the Americans, the Russians, the Germans, the French, and maybe the Turks.

That's a request from President Zelenskyy that is probably getting some attention.

CABRERA: And I want to play more of what President Zelenskyy said, because, as he's calling on NATO for more aid, he's also calling NATO out for not doing more to save lives. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translator): After this one month of warring with Russia -- in the war with Russia, please do not tell us that our army is not up to NATO standards. We have shown what our standards are worth, how much we can give to the overall security of Europe and the world.

But NATO has yet to show what NATO can do to save people's lives and to show that they are indeed the most powerful defensive alliance in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: David, so far, NATO actions have hurt Russia, but they haven't stopped Putin in his invasion.

Is Putin essentially testing the limitations of NATO?

DAVID ROTHKOPF, CEO, THE ROTHKOPF GROUP: Well, I think, at the moment, Putin is dealing with a bunch of unexpected consequences. He didn't expect to be here a month after his invasion.

I think he was told by his leading generals that they would be in and out and done very quickly. And so I think his primary issue is, NATO estimates 7,000 to 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed. Probably two or three times that have been wounded or have deserted.

[13:10:11]

That is between 10 and 20 percent of all the forces that he sent in. So, right now, that's his focus. And I think that's why he's escalating. He can launch more weapons, he can do more damage to cities and civilians. And that, frankly, is the only option available to him.

For the NATO leaders, there's a delicate balance. They want to help Ukraine in every way that they can, but they don't want this war to escalate. They also are focusing, I think, a little more on the long term. The Cold War era -- post-Cold War era ended on February 24, when this conflict started, and I think NATO is regrouping for a second Cold War.

CABRERA: Ambassador Taylor, I was just told that we can report that President Biden's press conference, which was expected to be a couple of hours from now, just got moved up, and is now expected to happen around 1:30 Eastern time here in the U.S.

What does that tell you? Anything?

TAYLOR: Well, the conversations are ongoing there.

As you have reported, there are multiple fora. There are three fora today and more tomorrow. So the fact that they started early and maybe are ending early is -- maybe it's a sign of agreement, Ana. We will see.

CABRERA: We will see.

And, again, we will bring those remarks live as soon as that press conference begins.

Meantime, looming over this summit is what President Biden called the very real threat of Russia using biological or chemical weapons, and Russia's not ruling out nuclear weapons either. Kaitlan addressed this at the top of our show, but, today, NATO said this. It says it's activating and reinforcing defense systems for all these threats, so enhancing that capability to try to prevent the most harm should these weapons be deployed, but said further decisions will be taken at the next NATO summit this summer.

Are you surprised, Ambassador, that they're going to postpone making further decisions? Couldn't the summer be too late to make those big decisions?

TAYLOR: Summer could definitely be too late, Ana. I agree.

And I imagine that they actually did have conversations about the possible NATO response or individual NATO member response. We remember that, in some -- in times past, when chemical weapons were used, there were strikes, military strikes against those forces that used those chemical weapons.

And that presumed -- that must be -- since it was done in the past, it might be done again. It might be on the table again. But I would imagine that we wouldn't want that -- that the U.S. government would not want to broadcast what it is they're planning to do.

But I'm sure they have got plans. They have said that they will respond, that NATO and individual nations will respond to the use of these weapons.

CABRERA: And, David, you wrote a few days ago the U.S., Ukraine and NATO have a secret weapon against Russia, patience.

Yet we are seeing Ukrainian towns just getting obliterated, and hundreds, if not thousands of civilians being killed. So explain how you see the time on the side of the good guys here.

ROTHKOPF: Well actually, in the course of the article, what I was really doing was reporting back that my conversations with senior U.S. government officials suggested that they saw patience as a vital element here, because, frankly, there are limits to how much they can escalate.

So what they want to do is squeeze Russia with sanctions, and that's going to take a while to really kick in and put pressure on Putin and, at the same time, provide enough weapons and support so that Ukraine can draw this out, draw this to the point that Russia can't see a way to victory, and may be willing to go and find its way to a negotiated settlement.

So far, Ukraine has shown remarkable resolve. But, as I also said in the column, patience is a far different thing when you're huddled with your baby in a subway station in Kyiv as you listen to bombs overhead.

And as you could hear from the remarks or you could hear from the quoted remarks of President Zelenskyy, they don't feel they have a lot of time. And so there's a very delicate tightrope, very delicate balance to walk here between providing enough support, and not triggering an escalation. That's the challenge for policymakers here. I think the X-factor,

frankly, is going to be if Russia escalates with chemical weapons or other WMD. The West is going to have to do more than it's currently planning to, and it's not going to have the chance to wait until June to come to that decision.

[13:15:05]

CABRERA: Yes, certainly acted with urgency to create the summit today and to make sure everybody was there.

David Rothkopf and former Ambassador William Taylor, I appreciate both of you. Thanks for taking the time.

And, again, just minutes from now, we expect to hear from President Biden at the sidelines of this big summit in Brussels. We will bring that to you live here on CNN.

Our other breaking news includes new details on Ukraine's efforts to retake key ground from Russia, plus what we're learning about that successful attack on a Russian warship.

Our Fred Pleitgen is live in Kyiv -- Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I will be live in Kyiv with more from the Ukrainian forces trying to push Vladimir Putin's army back and having some success.

We will have that live report coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:08]

LEMON: I'm Don Lemon. We're back now live in Lviv.

And as Ana just mentioned moments ago, we're just minutes away from President Biden's press conference. We're going to bring that to you live. That press conference has been moved up. And we will have it for you in just moments here on CNN.

But, today, there's more bad news for Russia. Ukraine says a large Russian warship was destroyed in the occupied southern port of Berdyansk. Now, you can see right there on your screen now flames and heavy smoke billowing into the sky.

In Kyiv, our CNN teams on the ground captured a barrage of outgoing fire scenes.

CNN's Ivan Watson is in the southern city of Zaporizhzhia for us.

But, first, let's go to our Frederik Pleitgen. He is in Kyiv, where Ukrainian forces continue to push back against Russians surrounding the capital.

So, Ivan, hello to you. Or, Fred, I should say, hello to you there. Listen, you're out there.

And, well, let's go to Ivan.

Ivan, you're in Zaporizhzhia, Ukraine, which is about 120 miles from where a Russian warship was destroyed. What more can you tell us about that?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

So the local Ukrainian government, it says that the strike came in at 7:00 a.m. We don't know exactly what weapon it was, but they claimed to have destroyed a Russian marine landing ship called the Orsk which was docked at the Russian-occupied port of Berdyansk.

Now, how do we know that? Because Russian state TV, including the English-language outlet, R.T., they broadcast reports with their correspondent on the bow of the ship, saying, hey, it has docked here at the Russian-occupied Ukrainian port of Berdyansk.

They even listed its cargo capacity, saying that it could carry up to 20 tanks or 40 armored personnel carriers and hundreds of troops. They showed the ship unloading with a crane and armored personnel carrier onto the dock. And perhaps 24, perhaps 36 hours after that report aired, boom, we see dramatic social media footage uninterrupted of that ship engulfed in flames, not only that, but of other Russian warships that appear to have been docked there tied up at the same time right next to it trying to get loose and leaving.

And they were actually on fire, smaller fires, trying to escape that kill zone. So it's a very dramatic strike. And I think that military analysts would argue that it showed just an overconfidence on the part of the Russian navy to dock their ship there within the reach of deadly Ukrainian weapons.

Now, Berdyansk is important in part because it's one of the ways out for evacuees fleeing from that besieged port city of Mariupol, much larger than Berdyansk.

And that is where I spoke to one of the Ukrainian defenders who's been holding out for weeks now against a vastly superior number of Russian troops. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELI SAMOILENKO, MARIUPOL DEFENSE STAFF OFFICER: It's open combat, so, yes, that's the street to street, building to building.

The enemy trying to -- the enemy trying to block us in the city blocks. We're pushing them back. The enemy is -- the enemy had very, very serious casualties. We -- basically, we're not counting them anymore. We need the heavy anti-air systems first. We need aircrafts, we need artillery pieces, and we need anti-tank guided missiles.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WATSON: That fighter there part of a group that is in a very dire situation, again, encircled by many more Russian forces. They're being pounded in that city from land, sea and air by the Russian military.

And even more ominous, there may be more than 100,000 civilians hiding in the basements during this modern-day siege. I met one of them who was lucky enough to escape in a children's hospital here, Don, an 11- year-old girl who described that she was shot by Russian soldiers while trying to flee Mariupol, seriously wounded, but fortunately alive to live another day -- Don.

LEMON: Oh, wow.

Now let's get to Fred in Kyiv.

Fred, tell us about the gain Ukrainians are making around Kyiv.

PLEITGEN: Yes.

Well, certainly, Don, it has been another very active day here in the Ukrainian capital. You showed that photo before of that outgoing artillery. That was from last night, but, really, the story of this day has been very, very similar.

We have been hearing outgoing barrages here throughout the city. We have also heard some booms and, of course, those air raid sirens that have almost become a mainstay of life here in the Ukrainian capital, as, of course, the Ukrainian armed forces continue to look out for possible Russian aircraft coming here.

[13:25:03]

We also heard a pretty big firefight throughout the course of the day.

And that really took a very, very long time and shows just how close to the fighting is to the capital city. And I think one of the things important to point out for our viewers is that there are multiple fronts here towards Kyiv. There's the northeast, where the Russians appear to be trying to make another push towards the Ukrainian capital, the Ukrainians, of course, holding them back.

But those areas that you're talking about, the ones where the Ukrainians are trying to make some gain, that's in the northwest or towards the northwest of the city, where we have seen them somewhat advance in the past couple of days.

And from what we have heard today, as we have been speaking to sources on the ground, they say that those gains appear to be consolidated. We spoke to one official in the suburb of Irpin who says it remains under Ukrainian control. They hold about 80 percent of that suburb.

But they also say that they are still under shelling by Russian forces. So, the Ukrainians continue to try to make gains. They are saying they are having some success, but, certainly, it's difficult and, in some cases, slow going, as a really, really heavy war is being waged here around the Ukrainian capital, Don. LEMON: Frederik Pleitgen and Ivan Watson doing incredible reporting

on the ground in Ukraine, thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

With us now is retired major General James "Spider" Marks. He is a senior military analyst and the head of geopolitical strategy at Academy Securities.

General, thank you so much for joining once again.

When you see that video of the destroyed Russian warship and the gains the Ukrainians have been making, what does that tell you?

BRIG. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it tells you the Ukrainians certainly are not out of the fight.

They have really -- excuse me -- they have really established an initiative here. And it's just gaining with time. Not certain how this ship was attacked. May have been an anti-ship missile. Could have been from a -- ground-based-launched RPGs, or it could have been a raid that took place.

But, clearly, what you can see from the images that you're showing right now is that that ship had more than just was necessary to sustain the ship. It had munitions. It probably had some additional armament, and it had some supplies.

This is a significant gain for the Ukrainians. The Russians want to create this land bridge from Donbass all the way down to Crimea and beyond to Odessa. That's the strategic -- one of the strategic objectives here. If you can't -- cannot control all the coastline, that's an exposed flank, and the Russians are vulnerable.

And this demonstrates that level of vulnerability. This is really a phenomenal effort on the part of Ukrainians and, frankly, based on what I have seen over the course the last three-plus weeks, not surprising.

LEMON: I know you have been watching seen CNN and these pilots they have been interviewing.

A senior U.S. official tell CNN that the U.S. opposes sending fighter jets to Ukraine. But in these interviews with these two Ukrainian pilots that they interviewed this morning, this is what they said they needed from NATO. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUICE, UKRAINIAN AIR FORCE PILOT: Using this baby, I am not efficient. I'm not effective against Russian just, against Russian fighters.

We need Western platforms. Maybe it could be pretty old jets as a platform, but with new missiles and with new radars and other systems, to be efficient, not to be fighting -- not to be scared of Russian technologies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So, General, two things. First, tell us what we're seeing there.

And, secondly, President Zelenskyy says that he needs fighter jets, that these Ukrainian pilots said that they need fighter jets. Does Ukraine need fighter jets? Would it be a game-changer?

MARKS: Don't know that it would be a game-changer. But let's review what that pilot just said. That was phenomenal, wasn't it?

Here's a guy who has an immense amount of confidence, some world-class training. He was trained in the United States. He's got equipment. He's got an aircraft that he thinks that probably, let's -- frankly, is probably not up to this same standards that the Russians are using. But they are acquitting themselves magnificently because of this incredible training.

And, also, what you have in air-to-air and air-to-ground-type combat, I think most of the Russian losses are as a result of surface-to-air missiles, not necessarily because of direct engagement by Ukrainian aircraft.

What that means is that Ukrainian aircraft, they know how to fight the air-to-ground battle, and they're moving these Russian pilots and these Russian aircraft into what's called air ambushes, where they fly over surface-to-air missile locations. And, suddenly, the Russian aircraft are getting lit up, because these Ukrainians know how to do it.

The Russians do not have that capacity. They know -- they may know how to fly an airplane, but they don't understand the purpose that that aircraft can provide to the totality of the fight, this three- dimensional fight, which is what it's all about.

LEMON: All right, General, thank you. Appreciate it.

We will see you very soon here on CNN.

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