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Kurt Volker, Former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Discusses Biden's Belief Russia Will be Removed from G-20 & Warning Russia of Response to Potential Chemical Weapons Attacks; Biden: "Putin Was Counting on NATO Being Split"; Pentagon: Russian Miliary Leaders Won't Talk to U.S. Counterparts; Russian Stock Market Reopened Today, Closed Higher; North Korea Fires Suspected International Ballistic Missile. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 24, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Fred Pleitgen for us. Fred, thank you so much.

So some big headlines, big developments out of this news conference from President Biden.

He says that he believes that Russia should be removed from the G-20. He also warns that the U.S. would respond to potential chemical attacks in Ukraine.

We'll discuss all of this with a former U.S. ambassador to NATO next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:35:00]

BLACKWELL: President Biden said that he believes Russia should be removed from the G-20 when he was asked about it at a press conference last hour. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, but that depends on the G-20.

That was raised today. And I raised the possibility, if that can't be done, if Indonesia and others do not agree, then we should, in my view, ask to have both Ukraine be able to attend the meetings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: With me now, former U.S. ambassador to NATO and former U.S. special representative for Ukraine negotiations, Kurt Volker. He's also a distinguished fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis.

Mr. Ambassador, welcome back. Russia was removed from the then-G-8 after annexation of Crimea in

2014. But you didn't have China as a member of that group, which is a member of the G-20, essentially running block for Russia politically on this.

Is either of those -- or are either of those possibilities? Expelling Russia, including Ukraine? Are those plausible?

KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO & FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS & DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, CENTER FOR EUROPEAN POLICY ANALYSIS: I would say that it is possible. But I don't think it's that likely that China or others would agree to throw Russia out of the G-20.

You know, I think we also have to look at what happens to the Russian economy. They may not qualify for the G-20 after these sanctions have their full impact. But I'm not sure it's really that likely.

I'm also not sure it's that significant. We are looking at an immediate time period here of Russia waging this war against Ukraine, trying to eliminate Ukraine as a country, Ukraine fighting for survival.

Attendance by Russia at a meeting like this or not is really not material to what's happening right now.

BLACKWELL: We know that Putin wants to attend that, from the ambassador in Jakarta. We heard from the Australian prime minister that it would be a step too far to sit at a table across from Vladimir Putin.

Do you expect even a boycott by the U.S. is possible or likely?

VOLKER: Well, I think that is more likely, that if we can't agree that Russia would be expelled, then I think some countries would decide not to attend if Russia's going to be present, and it does kind of break up the G-20.

It would be unfortunate. I think it's a useful group. I think it does cover a lot of global issues, economically, environmentally, that are important.

But there's a moral factor here, which the Australian prime minister identified. You can't be working together with Vladimir Putin under these circumstances.

BLACKWELL: Let me get your reaction and your thoughts on the president's response to the question of, what would NATO do, potentially, if Russia deploys chemical, biological, nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

And what he said was, "The nature of the response would depend on the nature of the use. NATO would respond in kind."

How do you receive that? What's your interpretation? VOLKER: Well, I think he's trying to do the right thing here of

warning Putin against any use of nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons without being specific as to what the nature of the response would be and without taking anything off the table.

I think that's the right posture to adopt.

It's interesting to me, though, that the NATO statement itself did not warn Putin specifically against the use of nuclear or chemical weapons.

It just said they must not be used, but it didn't indicate a NATO warning. This came, rather, from the G-7, which implies more of a sanctions response.

I think we need Putin to worry that if he uses these weapons, he will be drawing Western countries into the fighting against his own forces, which he clearly does not want.

BLACKWELL: You say you're surprised. Do you think it was a mistake?

VOLKER: I thought that NATO would have done more on that because NATO is the military alliance. That's where, I think, you can issue a warning that Putin will take seriously.

He's using his forces right now. And so it's got to be a warning about the use of force that he's going to be concerned about.

More sanctions that take a bite out of Russia's economy down the road are not something that's going to affect his behavior today.

BLACKWELL: Ambassador Kurt Volker, thank you.

[14:39:11]

The Pentagon says senior Russian military leaders have been declining phone calls from their counterparts in the U.S. since before the invasion began. We'll talk about the implications next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Minutes ago, President Biden said that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has united the NATO alliance like never before. He highlighted the Western response, saying that Putin was banking on NATO being split.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: NATO has never, never been more united than it is today. Putin is getting exactly the opposite of what he intended to have as a consequence of going into Ukraine.

We've built that same unity with our European -- the European Union and with the leading democracies of the G-7.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLACKWELL: Steve Hall is a CNN national security analyst and former CIA chief of Russia operations.

And also with us from Lviv is Michael Bociurkiw. He is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and a former spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Michael, let me start with you,

[14:44:58]

And what we did not hear from President Zelenskyy, there was no request for the no-fly zone, which had been part of every speech that he had given to Western legislative body.

He also did not ask to join NATO. If that is withdrawn, that aspiration to join NATO, do you believe that that moves the talks with Russia in a better direction? Does that really matter at this stage?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL & FORMER SPOKESMAN, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE: Yes, great questions.

You know, I think if you had asked me the same question two weeks ago, in fact, you might have -- I think I would have said Ukrainians would never allow Mr. Zelenskyy to even temporarily withdraw Ukraine from that NATO bid.

But I think now, given the huge losses, given the displacement, given the destruction, I think Ukrainians are also looking for not a way out of this but something that could be brought to the negotiating table.

But I got to tell you, like, no one here is even talking about peace talks. They're thinking about how, you know, they can bring an immediate end to this conflict.

And if I can give you a very kind of vivid example of what went on here today, Victor, is, right when NATO was making these promises about standing up for Ukraine and about a strict response against chemical weapons attacks or biological weapons or even nuclear weapons.

What was happening next door to me, there's one of the biggest churches in Lviv. They were actually boarding it up, boarding up the windows for fear of a Russian attack. This is happening around this city.

I think if you would have seen more confidence as a result of those meetings and what was said in Brussels today, we would have had the opposite result out here on the streets.

So it's very interesting to watch these kinds of subtleties. But I think it reflects very well the kind of psyche here that this is far from over and that a Russian strike could even happen here.

BLACKWELL: Yes, it is fascinating to watch the diplomatic side of the screen, per se, and then the side of the military on the ground there.

Steve, let me come to you.

And if there's going to be some negotiated end to this, there have to be discussions.

And we know that from the U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin and the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, they've not spoken with their Russian counterparts since the start of the war, even before that.

What do you make of just that inability to have some exchange from the Russians? What's that tell you?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, it's been a rough war for Russian generals. I mean, they've lost about five of them.

Then you've got the Russian generals who are still answerable to their political leadership, primarily Vladimir Putin, back in Moscow.

And I think there's still a little bit of denial going on in terms of, you know, what the Russians not only are telling Putin but how they're interacting with their Western counterparts.

You'll recall that ever since the Cold War, there have been a wide variety of sort of hot lines, red telephones on people's desks.

So that nuclear strikes don't happen, so that both sides understand clearly what the intentions of the others are. And the Russians have stepped back from that.

But you know, again, it's more -- when it's at the general-to-general level, it's more, again, for transparency to try to make sure there's no surprises and there's at least some strategic predictability if it comes to weapons of mass destruction.

So, you know, I think the Russian military is sort of on its heels and trying to figure out, where do we go from here?

When you're in that stage, you probably don't want to be on the phone with an American general who's going to ask you, so what are you guys up to?

BLACKWELL: Good point there.

Michael, to you.

A first today. The Russian stock exchange was opened. It wasn't a full day. The first time since the start of the war.

Foreigners couldn't sell stocks. Couldn't sell their shares. Only allowed 15 percent of listed shares to trade.

The market actually closed higher because of all of these protections. This is not sustainable.

What do you take from what Russia, I guess, is trying to do with an economic type of misinformation?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, as your business correspondents will tell you better than I can, a lot of activity on the stock market depends on one thing and that is honest and timely information.

And that's something the Russians are not getting whatsoever. They're being fed daily propaganda. They're being fed a lot of fake news about what's going on here in Ukraine.

So you know, it's little wonder that you had that type of blip on the stock exchange.

But the other thing I would say, in terms of economic pain being inflicted by the West, President Biden spoke of unity today.

I think that unity also has to -- also include countries like Turkey and the gulf states. Because those are still countries where Russians can go on vacation, they can go shopping, they can put their kids in school, that sort of thing.

So if you want to deliver that blow, those countries have to be involved.

[14:49:59]

And judging by a Twitter conversation we had yesterday with someone from Turkey, a correspondent, I don't think Turkey is anywhere near stepping up to the plate and participating in those harsh sanctions, including against Russian oligarchs.

BLACKWELL: Yes, also relative to the conversation of Russia's future in the G-20.

Michael Bociurkiw, Steve Hall, thank you.

And as the world watches this key meeting in Brussels, North Korea has fired what is believed to be its first intercontinental ballistic missile in more than four years. We have the details on this new type of missile that was launched.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:55:18]

BLACKWELL: As Western leaders gather in Brussels for a security summit, North Korea conducts what is believed to be its first intercontinental ballistic missile test in more than four years.

It landed in the waters off Japan's western coast earlier today, according to Japan's Defense Ministry.

CNN's Will Ripley joins me now from Taipei with the latest.

Will, Japanese officials say this missile reached an altitude that suggests it's a new type of ICBM. What more do we know? WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. It has

actually flown higher and been in the air longer than any intercontinental ballistic missile, Victor, North Korea has ever launched.

It flew up to an altitude of more than 3,800 miles, so essentially straight up into outer space, straight down, landing about 150 kilometers off the Japanese northern island of Hokkaido.

The Japanese prime minister met with President Biden in Brussels. And earlier had called this launch reckless, unacceptable, and terrifying for a lot of people.

Because this Hwasong, which is believed to be the Hwasong-17, could potentially, analysts say, carry multiple warheads, could travel as far as 15,000 kilometers.

Which would put it within striking range 95 percent of the world's population, including anywhere in North American, which, of course, includes the entire mainland United States -- New York, Los Angeles, Washington.

And North Korea deliberately doing this at a time the world's eyes are elsewhere. The world is focused on what's happening in Ukraine. All of the world leaders are in Brussels.

Even if North Korea was trying to insert itself in the conversation, this launch, as provocative as it is, is still being overshadowed by the bigger crisis in Europe.

But down the road, Victor, this, analysts say, could become a very big crisis if there's not some sort of diplomatic outreach between the United States and North Korean leader, Kim Jong-Un.

BLACKWELL: The timing cannot be ignored.

Will Ripley for us. Thank you, Will.

Happening now, President Biden is meeting with the European Council, of course, after holding a press conference at NATO headquarters warning Russia the U.S. would respond if they used chemical weapons against Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)