Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Russia to Expel Unknown Number of U.S. Diplomats; NATO: Up to 15,000 Russian Combat Deaths So Far; Ukraine War Mirrors Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan; NATO Leaders Meeting Today to Discuss War in Ukraine; GOP Senators Question Sentencing in Child Porn Cases. Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired March 24, 2022 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:30:00]

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN ANCHOR: We will of course bring you more information on this as we get it.

And we should warn you, this next video is graphic. On Wednesday the U.S. formally declared the Russian military had committed war crimes in Ukraine. And this video is from the hard-hit city of Mariupol. You can see a street littered with debris, damaged cars and several bodies. The driver of the vehicle had to speed away when it apparently came under fire.

And this is the town of Zhytomyr west of the capital. Video shows the damage of Russian shelling to a local school. The city of Kharkiv lies very close to the Russian border and has endured weeks of attacks. The mayor says nearly 1,000 residential structures have been destroyed.

U.S. defense officials say Moscow has unleashed more than 1,200 missiles over the past month. And despite the assaults the Ukrainians are not backing down. NATO officials say between 7 and 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed since the war against Ukraine started. That number is an estimate gleaned from reports from both sides of the conflict. And according to the Pentagon, Russian military and defense officials have so far declined to engage with their U.S. counterparts. Something the Pentagon described as critically important.

Top American officials haven't spoken with those Russians since before the invasion despite a functioning deconfliction line between the two countries. And Russia had no problem, however, notifying the U.S. embassy in Moscow that it would expel multiple American diplomats. The move comes after the United States decided to expel 12 Russian diplomats and a Russian U.N. employee.

Nina dos Santos joins me now from London with more on this. Good to see you, Nina. So, what's the latest on all of this. And of course, the Russian officials refusing to engage with the United States.

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. The backdrop to all of this is also a very interesting report, exclusive report obtained by our colleague Barbara Starr who covers the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. Which appears to show a readout of the meeting between defense attaches -- two U.S. defense attaches who remain anonymous and also their Russian counterparts not that long ago. During which obviously one of the U.S. military attaches referred to one of their intermediaries had family in Ukraine and they appeared to show exasperation and saying that they were very depressed about the situation in Ukraine and went off script.

So, it appears as though there are various indications that morale is quite low among the Russian military. And of course, at the same time these diplomatic tensions between the diplomacy channels as well with the United States and Russia. With Russia saying that they're going to be expelling U.S. diplomats from Moscow. That coming, as you are pointing out before, is a backlash if you like, to the expulsion of 12 members of the Russian mission in New York.

And all the while it appears as though Russian military casualties are mounting by the day. Although getting a firm picture on exactly how many casualties there may be is quite, quite difficult at this point. Some estimates range from between 7,000 to just over 15,000 for the Ukrainian army.

NATO appears to also corroborate this. Because NATO also thinks that if you account for the number of Russian soldiers who are missing in Ukraine that may have been captured or wounded, we're talking about numbers that are largely closer to 40,000. And if that is the case, obviously that would be a deep embarrassment to Vladimir Putin. Because it would mean that these numbers are far, far more deadly than during the first Chechen war or even the campaigns in the late 1970s that Russia engaged in in Afghanistan.

And the backdrop as well, Rosemary, is that we're also seeing the man in charge of the Russian army, Sergey Shoygu, the defense minister of Russia, he's been missing in action for about 12 days. Nobody really knows where he is. There's some question marks over his recent health. So, lots of questions here about the scale of the casualties on the Russian side and also where diplomacy is headed at this point -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: So many questions as you say. Nina dos Santos joining us live from London. Many thanks.

And if NATO's estimates are correct, Russia's war casualties after just one month in Ukraine may be as high as all ten years of the Soviet Afghan war in the 1980s. CNN's Nic Robertson has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Nearly 43 years ago, Moscow ordered troops into Afghanistan.

[04:35:00]

Over the following decade, some 15,000 Soviet Red Army soldiers would at die there. Their war and eventual retreat led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Today, the death toll of Russian troops in Ukraine could already match those killed over ten years in Afghanistan. Four hundred and ninety- eight dead in the first week of war, according to Russia's defense ministry. And despite no updates since, NATO officials say after a month of fighting, the Russian death toll is now as many as 15,000.

Across dozens of Russian cities, more than 15,000 people have been arrested for protesting the war. Recently, anxious parents of troops have begun showing up. Putin's Achilles heel is the perception soldiers are dying unnecessarily.

It's why he's tightened reporting laws and swamped Russia with Kremlin propaganda. And it's why the Ukrainian military shows off battlefield gains, like knocking out Russian tanks, or captured Russian soldiers, because they know bad press back home is what got the Red Army out of Afghanistan.

What sunk for the Soviets in the '80s was the Afghans' determination to fight for their homeland. And that the United States supplied the Afghan fighters with Stinger surface-to-air missiles. The shoulder- launched weapons turned the tide of the war. Russian helicopters were easy prey. They lost air superiority, and with it, the will to endure high casualties, and anger back home.

Two years after an ignominious pull-out in 1989, the economic cost of war overpowered the ailing Soviet economy, and seven decades of communist rule collapsed.

Afghan parallels with today's war in Ukraine are clear. Like the Afghans, the Ukrainians are ferociously battling to save their homeland from Moscow's army. And as they did with the Afghan fighters, the U.S. and allies are supplying the Ukrainian army with U.S.-made Stinger missiles to shoot down Russian helicopters and jets with success.

JOHN KIRBY, U.S. DEFENSE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: The airspace is contested, and it's contested because the Ukrainians are making it that way. And they're being very smart about how they're martialing and using their air defense resources.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Tank-busting, U.S.-made Javelin missiles are also helping Ukraine keep Putin's army at bay.

Russia's enemies, if not Russia, have learned the lessons of the Afghan war. No one yet, though, predicting the collapse of Putin's power.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Brussels.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: And this just coming in to CNN. Russian state media reports that the military is now claiming to have taken control of the city of Izyum -- that's southeast of Kharkiv which has been the scene of fierce fighting in recent days. It cites the Russian defense ministry. Ukraine though has not yet commented on that claim.

Well, back here in the United States the tough questions are over for Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. Next comes the vote for the first black woman ever nominated to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Plus, any moment now U.S. President Joe Biden will arrive at NATO headquarters for a meeting on the Ukraine conflict. And we will bring you that live when it happens. Do stay with us on CNN.

[04:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: The U.S. president has ordered flags at the White House and other federal buildings to be flown at half-staff to honor the late Madeleine Albright. The first woman to serve as Secretary of State died Wednesday after battling cancer.

Born in Prague, Czechoslovakia, Albright and her family immigrated to the United States in 1948. She was appointed Secretary of State almost 50 years later by then U.S. President Bill Clinton. She pushed to stop the spread of nuclear weapons and to expand NATO.

Albright also championed human rights and female solidarity. Famously warning over the years, quote, there is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women.

Albright was a strong proponent of global democracy but in 2020 when then President Donald Trump refused to admit he lost the election, she noted that even advanced democracies like the U.S. remain a work in progress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, 1937 - 2022: Democracy is both fragile and resilient and we are seeing both sides at the moment. But the resiliency of democracy and the capability of democracy to correct itself, and that's why there's going to be a lot of work to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: U.S. President Joe Biden issued a lengthy tribute saying in part, Madeleine was always a force for goodness, grace and decency, and for freedom.

Well, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee is expected to vote April 4th on Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson's -- we're going to go to Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. Let's go to the British Prime Minister now.

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: ... to help the Ukrainians. I think the faster that this thing can be over. Thank you all very much. Thank you.

CHURCH: Clearly, we just missed what he had to say, but Boris Johnson there. The British Prime Minister having just arrived at NATO headquarters. They are to have a meeting. The 30 NATO members will meet and discuss Ukraine's war there with Russia of course. So, Russia having invaded Ukraine and they are looking to come up with additional military support for Ukraine and sanctions as well. Well, the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee is expected to vote April

4th, as we were saying, on Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson's nomination to the Supreme Court. But with Republicans lining up in opposition, her confirmation vote will be likely one of the closest in history. And we get more now from CNN's Jessica Schneider.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: Good morning, Senator.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the questioning of Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson winds down, Republicans seem to be ramping up their criticisms of Jackson's judicial record. Her sentencing decisions in child pornography cases continue to be a flash point.

Senator Lindsey Graham accusing her of giving offenders supervision instead of jail time.

[04:45:00]

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): You think it is a bigger deterrent to take somebody who's on a computer looking at sexual images of children in the most disgusting way is to supervise their computer habits, versus putting them in jail?

JACKSON: No, Senator. I didn't say versus.

GRAHAM: That's exactly what you said.

JACKSON: Congress has directed courts to consider various means of achieving deterrence. One of them, as you've said, is incarceration. Another, as I tried to mention, was substantial periods of supervision once the person --

GRAHAM: So if I could --

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Jackson tried to cut off the questioning when pressed again by Ted Cruz.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): You sentenced them to 28 months. Why?

JACKSON: Senator, I've said what I was going to say about these cases. No one case can stand in for a judge's entire record.

CRUZ: OK, but I'm discussing every one of the cases so if you're not going to explain it --

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Senator, would you please let her respond?

CRUZ: No, not if she's not going to answer my question.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): An in-depth CNN review shows Judge Jackson mostly followed common judicial sentencing practices in a handful of child porn cases she's handled. And a group of retired federal judges including two Republican appointees sent a letter to the committee saying Jackson's record on sentencing is entirely consistent with decisions from judges around the country.

But Republicans have not found that reasoning satisfactory, continuing to press their belief that Jackson is, quote, soft on crime.

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): There is at least a level of empathy that enters into your treatment of a defendant that some could view as maybe beyond what some of us would be comfortable with, with respect to administering justice.

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Jackson shot back that she sentences in a way that is tough, but also compassionate and later, she turned emotional.

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): You faced insults here that were shocking to me, well, actually, not shocking. Don't worry, my sister. Don't worry. God has got you. And how do I know that? Because you're here.

SCHNEIDER: And Judge Jackson made some news of her own. For the first time she pledged that if confirmed she will recuse herself from an affirmative action case involving Harvard that will be heard by the Supreme Court sometime in the fall. Jackson serves on Harvard's Board of Overseers. So, there was question if she could fairly hear the case. Now we know she will not be part of the decision that could have big implications for whether universities can factor race into their admission policies.

Jessica Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: And still to come, a Norwegian paramedic says he had to do something to help people escape from the war in Ukraine. We will have more on the lifesaving service, he and others are offering.

[04:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHURCH: The International Rescue Committee says the war in Ukraine has created the fastest displacement crisis since World War II. More than 3.6 million people have already fled Ukraine -- according to the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. But there are countless others still trying to escape Russian attacks. One Norwegian volunteer paramedic now makes daily trips to Ukraine to help as many people as he can flee to Poland. CNN's Ed Lavandera has his story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The air raid sirens no longer startle Didrik Gunnestad.

DIDRIK GUNNESTAD, VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE DRIVER: The sirens are telling us it's no danger anymore.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): With that, he eases the nerves of a mother and her two children he's just picked up at the train station. Tonight, he will drive them to Poland.

Didrik Gunnestad struggles to explain how a 27-year-old from Norway has found himself driving an ambulance through the streets of Lviv.

GUNNESTAD: That's the most difficult question, actually.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): He's part of a volunteer team evacuating critically ill hospital patients and refugees from Ukraine.

GUNNESTAD: I just wanted to help do something, not sit and home and just look at everything on the TV him.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): Most days, Didrik drives into Lviv from Poland with an ambulance full of medical supplies and distributes the loads to hospitals facing grave shortages ...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHURCH: All right, I want to go live to Brussels now. You're looking at these pictures out of Brussels where U.S. President Joe Biden and U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken are attending an extraordinary NATO summit to discuss Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Car there you can see they've arrived there and President Biden is among those who've just arrived is my understanding.

NATO leaders would, of course, discuss the ongoing deterrence and defense efforts and are expected to conclude with the announcement of more sanctions on Moscow. But first President Biden will of course address the gathering.

All right, I want to go to Kevin Liptak. Kevin, you can hear me, OK? So, I mean we been watching in the course of the morning. Of course, the arrival of leaders from all around the world to this NATO summit. And of course, the expectations are that they will lend more help in terms of sanctions and military support. But we can't be too high with our expectations, can we?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, no. And certainly, what the president was hoping for in convening this in-person summit here in Brussels was to underscore the unprecedented unity that you've seen among allies up until now. But what you're seeing is also that the West is testing the limits of how far certain countries will go in punishing Russia and that has to do with the European dependence on Russian energy. That's something that the president is expected to discuss later today.

But certainly, what the president was hoping for was this very dramatic visit.

[04:55:00]

And when you think about these types of summits, Rosemary, ordinarily organizers have months and months to kind of come up with what the leaders will announce at the end of the summit, the so-called deliverables. This time President Biden made known only about a couple of weeks ago that he wanted to meet these leaders face to face in person here in Brussels. And so, you've seen the U.S. and European officials kind of scrambling to put together a package of something they can announce at the end of the summit.

And you see him walking into the NATO headquarters alongside the Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg. Some of the other leaders did address reporters who are gathered kind of in this what they call the doorstep of NATO. We'll see if President Biden stops, and that's something of a tradition for leaders to stop there, whether they want to or not.

And earlier we did see the Canadian Prime Minister. Let's just see if he -- he's walking past the microphones. Didn't stop to speak at the microphones walking further into the headquarters alongside the secretary general. And of course, the president will want to ensure that these allies are on the same page as they're going forward. And one of the things he also wants to do is sort of manage these differences that do exist between these countries to ensure that they're able to sustain the pressure campaign on Russia going forward.

And one of the other big announcements that we do expect the president to say today, is bolstering NATO's defense posture along the eastern flank both in the short term of these defense battalions that are being sent to the southern countries along the eastern flank. But also in the long term, they're tasking their defense ministers to come up with plans to bolster the forced posture along the eastern flank on a more permanent basis. To try and really emphasize the commitment to those countries that are closest to Russia, that the defense alliance has their back.

So, the defense ministers will kind of come up with plans there, report back. And when NATO meets again in Madrid at the end of June, the leaders will meet and decision and maybe perhaps make a decision then. B

But certainly, Rosemary, these are high stakes meetings. They're high stakes for President Biden. They're high stakes for Europe and they're high stakes for the world. And the real question looming over all of this is what the take away will be for Vladimir Putin watching from Moscow. Will he see a united alliance? Or will he see cracks start to emerge? And certainly, President Biden's goal here is to smooth over whatever differences exist and ensure that the alliance remains united going forward.

CHURCH: We've still got the camera on President Biden there with the Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg. And the expectation too is that Biden will push some of these European leaders to become less dependent on Russian energy. Very important. Let's talk about that because some still paying President Putin money for oil and gas in Russia. But what sort of effort is the U.S. going to make in terms of giving some relief to these nations that really feel that they have no other options?

LIPTAK: Yes, and that's going to be a topic of major discussion once the president leaves NATO and comes to where I am to the European Council. We also just learned that the president will meet with the EU Chief Ursula von der Leyer, tomorrow morning here in Brussels. And with something that she said yesterday was that she's looking to the United States to help bolster European gas supplies for the next two winters. Really to help wean the continent off of its dependence on Russian energy.

We do expect the president to announce something to that effect before he leaves Brussels. But that has been a real point of difference between the two sides here. There has been a very intense back and forth between the U.S. and European officials about how to accomplish this. And of course, you remember the United States actually, banned Russian oil and gas imports.

That's something that is much more difficult here in Europe, far more dependent on Russian energy. And what the president hopes to accomplish when he meets these leaders is to at least get to the same page in trying to head to this direction. But you did hear, for example, yesterday the German chancellor say that they can't take steps that would punish their own countries instead of punishing Russia. So, you really do still hear a lot of reticence from that. The president's goal -- President Biden's goal is to really reassure these countries that they are able to do it and perhaps provide some United States support to help backfill these supplies as they make the transition -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: Yes of course the problem is whilst they still buy Russia's oil and gas, they're providing Putin with a life line, aren't they?

LIPTAK: I mean, they really are and the United States when they cut off its imports it wasn't -- didn't have a huge effect. The U.S. doesn't import all that much energy from Russia. So certainly, it would have a much greater effect if Russia follows suit -- or of Europe followed suit, I should say.

CHURCH: CNN White House reporter Kevin Liptak many thanks for joining us.

I'm Rosemary Church. Thank you for your company. "EARLY START" is coming up next.

[05:00:00]