Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ukrainian Counterattack; President Biden Visits Poland. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 25, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: And thank you for joining INSIDE POLITICS today.

Ana Cabrera and Don Lemon pick up our coverage right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello on this Friday. Thanks for joining us for our special breaking news coverage. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Don Lemon is with us again in Lviv, Ukraine.

And President Biden is in Poland right now delivering a message of reassurance and deterrence. He met with soldiers of the U.S. Army's 82nd Airborne. This is one of the most elite military divisions. They're stationed there in Poland to fortify NATO's eastern edge. Poland, of course, neighbors Ukraine.

A short time ago, the president also attended a briefing on the growing humanitarian crisis. Poland alone has welcomed more than two million refugees. It is now day 30 of this war. And while numbers can't quantify the level of human misery, they can provide a glimpse.

The United Nations says more than 1,000 civilians are now confirmed killed. But the U.N. concedes this is probably on the very low side, that number almost certainly higher. The U.N. also estimates that 3.7 million Ukrainians have fled this fighting in their country.

And their measures almost unimaginable here. Half of Ukraine's children are displaced. Senior NATO officials estimate a staggering 15,000 Russian soldiers have been killed by Ukrainian fighters who are both outmanned and outgunned. The international outrage has been united and motivated, essentially leaving Russia isolated from the world politically and economically.

But the West is feeling the cost too. It sanctions on Russian oil and natural gas have caused worldwide energy prices to soar.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And, Ana, those are the hard numbers.

Now to the pictures. And I want you to watch carefully at the top of your screen, as a matter of fact. Those are civilians lined up in a shopping mall parking lot for humanitarian aid, the Russian missile strike on them killing six, wounding 15. It is the latest example of civilians being hit far from any military target.

We're also getting our first look inside the Mariupol theater that was serving as a shelter when it was bombed nine days ago. Ukrainian officials say at least 300 people were killed. These are images of shell-shocked civilians evacuating the ruins. Ukraine says hundreds of people could still be missing.

We're going to get straight to Phil Mattingly. He is in Warsaw covering presidential Biden's trip. Also, our Fred Pleitgen is in Kyiv for us.

Phil, we're going to start with you.

It would be tough to overstate just how vitally important the president's visit is.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there's no question about it.

And, Don, it's not just in the near term, in the moment, or just because of Ukraine. It's a bigger picture point. And I think it's a point the president tried to make himself earlier in his meetings in a town about an hour away from the Ukrainian border. He's currently flying back to Warsaw right now.

He met with U.S. troops that are now in country. That total population of U.S. military forces in Europe, Eastern Europe, has expanded over the course of the last five or six weeks as the U.S. has moved to step up deterrence and also reassure NATO allies in the region, Poland being one of those, sitting at about 100,000 right now.

And the president making clear that he believes this is an inflection point, not just for Eastern Europe, not just for Europe generally, for the entire world. And I think, to some degree, Don -- and we talked about this last night -- he looked at yesterday's a diplomatic sprint, right? It was three different summits, 12 or so hours' long of meetings, meeting with world leaders, trying to do as much as he possibly can in a very confined space of time.

Today's about the marathon, the marathon in terms of U.S. troop posture, NATO troop posture in Eastern Europe, given the new threat that Russia clearly poses, but also on the humanitarian side of things. More than two million refugees have streamed into Poland alone. It's overwhelmed the country, even as welcoming as they have been.

And that is part of the reason that President Biden was on the ground about an hour away from the border to receive a briefing about the humanitarian aid, the humanitarian conditions, just one day after pledging more than a billion dollars from the U.S. on the humanitarian side and saying the U.S. would welcome up to 100,000 refugees.

Now, the president is not crossing the border or did not cross the border into Ukraine, something he said he wasn't thrilled with, but was basically told wasn't an option. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Part of my disappointment is that I can't see it firsthand, like I have in other places. They will not let me, understandably, I guess, cross the border and take a look what's going on in Ukraine.

Those little babies, little children. I'm looking at mothers who you don't have to understand the language they speak. You can just see in their eyes the pain. And I mean literally pain of watching their children.

[13:05:11]

I don't think there's anything worse for a parent than to see a child suffering.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Don, it was a vivid description. And I think it's one that underscores the point the president made yesterday. The U.S. has an obligation to play a leadership role in the humanitarian side of things.

There's an understanding of that, yes, sanctions, yes, diplomacy, yes, military aid, yes, force posture in Eastern Europe, but humanitarian aid and refugees, that's a focus today, because it's an absolute necessity right now.

LEMON: Yes. It's terrible for all of the people who are displaced, but especially hard for the children. And seeing those images, I mean, it's just terrific.

Fred, listen, despite this Russian onslaught. Ukrainian officials say that they are mounting a successful counteroffensive outside of Kyiv. What are you learning?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's exactly what they're saying, Don.

And they say they are making some headway with that. Nevertheless, of course, Kyiv is still very much a city on a war footing. We are actually right in the city center. And you can see behind me here there's actually a tank barrier that's right in the middle of the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv, as right now you can really feel and hear the war pretty much at all hours here.

We have, of course, the Russians saying that a hit a fuel depot, in fact, the biggest fuel depot that they say that the Ukrainians still have, with a Kalibr cruise missile earlier today. And even as we have been standing outside here, we have heard air raid sirens pretty much constantly. We have also heard what we believe is some outgoing anti- aircraft fire coming from the Ukrainians as well.

So you can obviously very much feel that this war continues to go on here in Ukraine. Nevertheless, the Ukrainians are saying they're making some headway in those areas to the northwest of the city and also towards the northeast of the city, as well with some of their forces, they're saying, trying to encircle some Russian troops.

The U.S. actually believes that, right now, the Russians very much in a defensive posture and at this point in time, at least for now, not making an effort to try and storm the capital, maybe because they're having logistical issues as well.

But I just want to give you an idea of how central we actually are. If we pan over here, you can see we're actually right on the Maidan Square, on Independence Square, right in the city center.

And if you want to talk about defiance, what they do here is, they turn off a lot of the lights at night, Don, but that "I Love Ukraine" sign, that is still very much on, obviously saying that this city still stands strong, and still is not going to give in to that invasion force that is still very much at the doors of the city, even as the Ukrainians say they are pushing them back.

So, right now, what you can feel here -- and I think it's quite important, Don, is that you can feel that the folks here in the city, the people who are still here -- many of them, of course, fled -- they feel as though they have a little more room to breathe right now, because, right now, their forces are on the offensive, even though they understand it's still fragile and still very much a dangerous situation, Don.

LEMON: That sign representing the resolve of the Ukrainian people. They're definitely resolute. They do not want Russia and Vladimir Putin to take over their country.

Thank you, Fred. Thank you, Phil. We will check back in with you later.

That's the latest from the region.

Ana, I want to send it back to you in New York now.

CABRERA: Thank you all for your hard work there on the ground to be our eyes and ears.

And there's a lot to unpack in these latest developments.

I'm going to bring in Susan Glasser, a CNN global affairs analyst and staff writer for the New Yorker and Fred Kaplan, the national security columnist for slate magazine and Edward R. Murrow fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations. He's also the author of this book, "The Bomb: Presidents, Generals, and the Secret History of Nuclear War."

Susan, let me start with you in the big picture here, 30 days now into this invasion. What's your assessment of where things stand right now? And are the U.S. and NATO doing enough to stop Putin?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it really is notable that, a month in, you had Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for Vladimir Putin, essentially admitting the other day that Putin has achieved none of his strategic objectives that he began the war with. You saw that report just now from Kyiv. The first few days of the war,

right, we were all waking up to see if Kyiv still stood overnight. It's a very different picture right now. You have some reports from Moscow today suggesting that the Russians are pausing and perhaps refocusing their military campaign on the east of the country, on the Donbass, on the -- linking of the Crimean Peninsula with other parts of the east.

And that would represent a real retrenchment by Russia from its original, almost messianic goals outlined by Vladimir Putin of denazifying a country that did not, of course, need denazification. So it's a really striking picture of lack of success so far by Russia and definitively proving, I think, that Ukraine, beyond all doubt, is an independent nation, whose citizens are determined to resist.

CABRERA: And, still, neither side is giving up.

[13:10:00]

Fred, you recently wrote that this nightmarish stalemate won't end soon. And you call it a race to see which side crumbles first. How do you see this playing out?

FRED KAPLAN, SLATE: Well, if both sides continued to believe that they might do better, that they might where the other side down a little more -- Ukraine is thinking Russian tanks and troops will run out of fuel, run out of food.

As your previous correspondent noted that not only is Ukraine resisting, but driving some of the Russian forces back. As long as Ukraine believes that is happening, they don't have any reason to go to the negotiating table right away.

As long as Putin thinks, well, if I just bomb and shell another Ukrainian city to oblivion, a little bit more toward oblivion, then maybe the resistance will crack, maybe Zelenskyy will want to preserve lives, maybe he will come to the table, as long as both sides have reason to think that, if they hold out just a little bit longer, they might get better terms, then I think both sides will continue to have reason to keep fighting.

CABRERA: And so this could be a long road ahead.

Susan, President Biden is now pushing for Russia's removal from the G20. That would be obviously symbolic, if that were to happen. But would it be more than symbolic? And do you see this actually happening?

GLASSER: Well, look, I do think we're at this moment of essentially redoing the international order and the unraveling of the international order. Russia was already kicked out of the G8 a number of years ago as a consequence of its invasion and illegal annexation of Crimea, the first go-round, unfortunately, of this war in 2014.

It's certainly possible, though, remember, China and others are members of the G20 who have been supportive of Russia in this conflict, or at least not openly opposed to it. So it's not entirely clear.

But I do think what you're seeing is the sorting of the world right now. President Biden often talks about a new age conflict between autocracies and democracies. Well, the autocracies are showing their hand in terms of who is with Russia or, again, not opposing Russia's war.

And so my worry is that the existing fabric of international relations is unraveling. And it's not at all clear what, if anything, we have to replace it with. So, dialogue is disappearing. The Russians aren't even taking the phone calls of our military leadership. So this is a pretty grave situation. In some ways, there's less of a security blanket for the world than there was even in the late Cold War.

CABRERA: Fred, you referenced the tactics we're seeing. And we see Russia just escalate its barbarity, its depravity this week. Russia didn't even rule out using nuclear weapons.

This is an area that you have a lot of research in. You say if, God forbid, it did come to that, it may not be what people expect. Describe how this could go down.

KAPLAN: Well, first of all, I think the chances of it going nuclear are very unlikely.

At the same time I think it's less than likely than at any time we have seen perhaps since the Cuban Missile crisis 60 years ago. The Russians have a doctrine in their military training, and it's called escalate to de-escalate. The idea is, if they're in a war with NATO, and if they appear to be losing, they reserve the right to escalate, in other words, maybe to throw a few tactical nuclear weapons against NATO military targets, with the idea that this will throw...

CABRERA: What do you mean tactical, nuclear weapons?

KAPLAN: Well, weapons that are short-range enough, in other words, that -- not the long-range nuclear weapons aimed at the United States, but shorter-range that would be used on a European battlefield.

They're said to be small, only relatively, I mean, they're about half to two-thirds the explosive power as the bomb that leveled Hiroshima. So we're still talking about enormous weapons, more enormous than anything we have ever seen.

But the idea is that we would be so shocked by this that we would want to de-escalate the conflict and go to the tables. Now, what happens if we didn't de-escalate? What if we wanted to match the escalation or even go more?

The fact is, for all the tracts and books and seminars that have been written and conducted about nuclear strategy since Hiroshima, nobody really has the slightest idea what would happen after the first side uses nuclear weapons in a war zone.

CABRERA: Let's pray that we don't ever have to figure that out.

Fred Kaplan and Susan Glasser, I appreciate both of you. Thank you for being with us.

[13:15:00]

One thousand miles from the U.S. per day -- that is, 1,000 missiles per day from the U.S., that is what Ukraine wants, as its forces tried to retake more ground from Russian soldiers. We will discuss with a member of Ukraine's Parliament coming up.

Plus, American oil execs are speaking out on why they're not trying to pump more oil as gas prices soar, and most of them are not blaming the government, that and more.

Stay with us. You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VITALI KLITSCHKO, MAYOR OF KYIV, UKRAINE: We never, ever go to the knee. Better we die than give up.

And that why the Russians never -- I tell you, as mayor of Kyiv, as citizens of Kyiv, the Russians will be never, ever in our hometown.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:20:05]

CABRERA: It is better to die than to give up, those words from the mayor of Kyiv earlier today, as Ukraine says it needs more help to combat Russia's relentless assault.

In a weapons request given to U.S. lawmakers, Ukraine is asking for 500 Stinger anti-aircraft missiles and 500 Javelin anti-tank missiles per day. A source tells CNN that is hundreds more than in previous requests.

And joining us now from Western Ukraine is Parliament member Maryan Zablotskyi.

Maryan, thanks for being here with us.

I'm glad to see you are still safe right now.

How does this request compare to what you are using right now, what Ukrainian fighters need? How's Ukraine's supply holding up?

MARYAN ZABLOTSKYI, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Well, Ukrainian fighters have been extremely brave, and have used very clever tactics destroying Russian tanks and armored vehicles.

By our calculation, around 500 tanks of the Russian army have already been destroyed. And these are, of course, catastrophic losses to them. But still, nominally, Russian army has over 9,000 tanks within them, although, quite likely, because due to theft and corruption, many of them do not work. But it is clear that they will try to throw more at us. And we need

more of these grenade launchers to fight back. But I can tell you, I definitely agree with the mayor of Kyiv. Our anthem says that we will rather die than give our freedom. We just need the rockets.

CABRERA: It is so, so admirable to see the resilience all of you are showing right now.

We spoke in my last segment with some guests about this being a potentially long-fought battle. How long do you think Putin will continue to assault your country and your people?

ZABLOTSKYI: Nobody knows.

We did not believe until the very last that he would do such a thing, especially looking at the amount of forces that he gathered, because this is the irrational decision his behalf. We, of course, understood that he could never have taken Kyiv, a city of more than three million people, even if you threw all of his forces only at Kyiv. This is just practically impossible.

He decided to spread them around the whole territory. And now they are suffering huge losses. I guess the biggest problem now is that Vladimir Putin is quite significantly delusional. He's losing touch with reality. He only listens to what he wants to hear. And he is basically halfway to the mentality of Moammar Gadhafi.

CABRERA: So, how do you get to a resolution? There has been a lot of talk about what Russia wants from Ukraine in potential negotiations and what Ukraine could potentially concede.

But if negotiations are give-and-take, and a deal is to be made, in your mind, what should Russia have to give?

ZABLOTSKYI: Well, I think this has to come still to Russia's and Putin's realization of his military defeat and his inability to achieve military objections (sic).

And, as for negotiations, many of Russia's demands did not make any sense from the beginning. For example, denazification, called denazification of Ukraine, we are the only country in Europe to have a far right party in Parliament and our president is Jewish. How can we possibly even start some sort of ridiculous conversation on the topic?

So, I think he was making some of the -- some of the demands up. Maybe he was even believing in them. But I think they now need to sober up and come up with something realistic at the negotiating table.

CABRERA: Do you see Ukraine having any leverage at this point?

ZABLOTSKYI: Of course, it's our forces. It's absolutely clear that it's absolutely impossible for Putin to achieve his military goals.

Even the Western analysts were telling that. And I remember still those headlines that officials in Washington, whatever, believe that Kyiv would fall within 96 hours or whatever. But it is clear that, after hundreds of tanks and even more armored

vehicles lost by the Russians, that they cannot physically achieve their goals by occupying the country. So, they have to stop at some point. The question is, when do they sober up and maybe whether they are at that point already or not?

CABRERA: At this point, up to 15,000 Russian soldiers have lost their lives. Just today, there's reporting another Russian general was killed.

Let me ask you about the events of this week, diplomatic events. What's your biggest takeaway from the big NATO summit?

ZABLOTSKYI: Well, I'm really glad to hear that NATO is united, and they continue to pressure Russia.

But I am still waiting for the news and for the implications of things that are probably not public, the ones that we are talking about the deliveries of further arms to Ukraine, the deliveries of rockets. They will never be discussed publicly, for understandable reasons, but I really hope to see the impact of greater support of Ukraine in the battlefield.

[13:25:16]

CABRERA: Ukrainian Parliament member Maryan Zablotskyi, thank you so much for taking the time. Wishing you the very best.

U.S. oil executives are now speaking out about why they are not ramping up production domestically as gas prices soar. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)