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Ivo Daalder, Former U.S. Ambassador To NATO, Discusses Biden's "Major Address" In Poland Tomorrow & Erdogan Saying Russia, Ukraine Reach "Understanding" on Topics, Including NATO Membership; Texts Show Justice Thomas' Wife Pushed Meadows To Question Election; Sr. U.S. Defense Official: Russians In Defensive Positions Around Kyiv, Have Stopped Ground Movements Toward Capital; U.S. Trainer Of Ukrainian Pilots: I Expected To Fight Beside Them. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired March 25, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:31:09]

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: I'm Wolf Blitzer, in Warsaw, Poland.

President Biden arrived here just a little while ago. Tomorrow, he will meet with Ukrainian refugees, just a few of the 2.2 million that have fled to Poland since Russia invaded one month ago.

The president's national security adviser said the president will deliver a, quote, "major address" here tomorrow about the urgency of the challenge that lies ahead and what the conflict in Ukraine means for the world.

Joining us now, the former U.S. ambassador to NATO, Ivo Daalder. He's the president of the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.

Ivo, thank you so much for joining us.

What will you be listening for in this speech tomorrow from President Biden?

IVO DAALDER, PRESIDENT, CHICAGO COUNCIL ON GLOBAL AFFAIRS & FORMER AMBASSADOR TO NATO: Well I think what the president needs to do is to kind of lay out how the last month really changed the world.

We used to think that cooperation and engagement with Russia would lead to peace. It is what the Germans did with gas. It is why they have such a dependence on gas.

This idea that if you are interdependent economically you would avoid the possibility of a war. That is now gone.

Clearly, we're dealing with a country and a leader in Russia and Vladimir Putin who are set on using force to achieve military objectives.

And this is a long-term change that we will have to deal with. We also see the same thing in China. So I would expect the president to put the meat on the bones on

something he was saying since the day that he was inaugurated, that we're increasingly in a world divided between democracies and autocracies.

And democracies need to find ways to not only to meet the needs of their own people but to work together and to bring peace, stability and prosperity for their own people and for people who aspire to the same thing.

BLITZER: Yes, clearly a return to the battle days of the Cold War, which we all thought years ago we have moved on from. Clearly, we have not.

The U.S. and the European Union, as you know, Ivo, they announced today a plan to reduce Europe's dependence on Russian oil and gas.

How could that impact be to Putin and the Russian economy?

DAALDER: It could have a big impact. It will take some time. You just can't turn the tap off and find another tap to open up. That is not how natural gas flows or even oil does. It will take time.

But what it means is that Europe is now, for the first time really since the early 1980s when the first Soviet oil pipeline was opened up, is saying, we don't rely on a country like Russia for some vital needs.

And we're seeing the decoupling of the Russian economy, from the global economy, or at least the Western economy. Ad I think that is not just something that is going to halt as soon as this war is over. And hopefully that is soon.

I think this is a new trend. Democracy is saying maybe we should rely on each other rather than rely on countries who may use their economic interdependence with us as a weapon of warfare.

Clearly, that is what China has already done with countries like Australia, with Korea and Norway and Lithuania at the moment.

And it's something that I think more countries will saying. We ought to cooperate because we could rely on each other but it is not clear we could rely on countries like Russia and China.

BLITZER: Yes, that is a very important point.

I assume you heard that Turkey's President Erdogan says Ukraine and Russia, he says, have reached an understanding -- his word, understanding -- on four out of six areas of previous disagreement.

He said, including no NATO membership for Ukraine and acceptance of Russian as an official language in Ukraine as well.

[14:35:01]

How much stock do you put in Erdogan's assessment? DAALDER: Not well. I mean, the assessment may be correct. But first,

the most important issues of territory and the presence of Russian forces on Ukrainian territory hasn't been resolved. And that is what, after all, this war is about.

Second, the question of neutrality or not belonging to NATO is easier to do on paper than to do in reality.

What the Ukrainians have said is they need a real security guarantee from the United States and other countries.

Not just the kind of assurance that they got back in 1994 when they gave up their nuclear weapons, which had been on their soil when the Soviet Union broke up.

At that time, Russia and the United States and the United Kingdom provided security assurances. Well, those turned out to be not even worth the paper they were written on.

So the Ukrainians now want real security guarantees, which, in some ways, is akin to being a member of NATO.

It is not clear the United States will want to provide it. It isn't clear that the Russians will settle for something as significant as that.

So, the details matter. I hope there's progress on this. We all want the war to end.

But clearly, the Ukrainians will only settle for an end of the war diplomatically when Russian forces are no longer in their territory. And unfortunately, they're still on their territory and doing egregious harm to the Ukrainian people.

BLITZER: Yes, they've been on Ukrainian territory for years now, going back to when they occupied Crimea and they're still there.

It is clear that President Zelenskyy -- and he make this is point all of the time and other Ukrainians do as well. They're ready for a ceasefire but it has to be accompanied by withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine.

I don't see the Russians doing that, at least any time soon. So this sad war looks like it is going to continue.

Ambassador Ivo Daalder, thank you so much for joining us.

DAALDER: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Let's go back to Victor in New York -- Victor?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Thank you, Wolf.

We've learned that the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas pressed former Trump chief of staff, Mark Meadows, over the 2020 election. She sent him dozens of text messages pushing to overturn President

Biden's victory. We'll show you some of those exchanges next.

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[14:42:04]

BLACKWELL: Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas is out of the hospital after a week-long stay. Doctors discharged him this morning after treating for any undisclosed infection.

He had been suffering from non-COVID-19-related flu-like symptoms. Good news there.

But Thomas' wife, Ginni, is also making some news. CNN was the first to report that the January 6th committee has nearly 30 text messages she sent last fall through January of this year. And they were sent to former Trump's then-chief of staff, Mark Meadows.

Thomas was pushing him to overturn the 2020 election results. In one message, she accused the left of attempting the greatest heist of our history.

Now this past January, the Supreme Court allowed the January 6th committee to access documents from the Trump White House from the National Archives. Justice Thomas was the only member to dissent.

CNN congressional correspondent, Ryan Nobles, is here with what we learned from the text messages.

Ryan, these texts really paint a clear picture, a pointed picture of Mrs. Thomas' personal views. Share with us what they say.

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're right about that, Victor, 29 texts in total from just after the November election through the middle of January.

This exchange between Mark Meadows and Ginni Thomas where she implores the chief of staff to do everything he can to prevent Donald Trump from leaving office.

This is an example of one of those texts. On November 10th she wrote, "Help this great president stand firm, Mark."

And later went on to say, "The majority knows Biden and the left is attempting the greatest heist of our history."

Meadows responded by saying, "I will stand firm. We will fight until there's no fight left. Our country is too precious to give up on. Thanks for all of you do."

But she took it a step further, Victor. She also really pushed specific legal theories and lawyers that were making this case that there was widespread fraud across country without a lot of evidence.

Chief among them, Sidney Powell, who has really become a discredited actor in all of this.

And at one point, Thomas reaching out to Meadows on November 22nd, saying: "Trying to understand this Sidney Powell distancing."

At this point, the White House was trying to distance itself from Sidney Powell.

And Meadows responded, "She doesn't have anything or at least won't share if she does."

And then there's what if any connection Ginni Thomas has to January 6th itself. She has admitted that she attended that speech, the Stop the Steal rally outside of the Ellipse on January 6th.

But said that she want home before it was over because she was cold and it had nothing to do with what took place here at capitol.

But she did have thoughts about it. And she shared those thoughts with Mark Meadows just four days after the insurrection.

She wrote on January 10th:

"We are living through what feels like the end of America. Most of us are disgusted by the V.P. And are in a listening mode to see where to fight with our teams."

"Those who attacked the capitol are not representing of our great teams of patriots for DJT. Amazing times. The end of liberty."

[14:45:02]

So, Victor, we get -- really peel back a lot about how Ginni Thomas felt during this period of time. And, of course, she's one of the few Americans that had direct access to one of the most powerful people in the White House Victor?

BLACKWELL: Yes. Remarkable text messages. And of course, there are questions about whether Justice Thomas should have recused himself. Those questions will continue.

Ryan Nobles, from the capital, thank you so much.

Ukraine is asking for more military assistance from the U.S. government, including hundreds more anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles than previously requested. What this tells about the fighting there. That is next.

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[14:50:20]

BLACKWELL: The U.S. is detecting what could be a major turnaround in the battle for Ukraine's capital.

A senior defense official says Russian forces around Kyiv are now in defensive positions and have stopped any interest in terms of ground movement towards Kyiv.

But the official adds that air attacks and long-range strikes are still happening. And says Russia has lodged 1,250 missiles against Ukraine since the start of the invasion.

Joining me now is CNN military analyst, retired Army Major General Dana Pittard.

General, thank you for being with me.

Let's start with this breaking news. I want to show close in on Kyiv, just how much of the area around Kyiv is under Russian control.

But as U.S. forces -- officials have said for many days that in the approach to Kyiv, things have been stalled.

What do you make of this reporting that there's no interest for now in encircling Kyiv?

RET. MAJ. GEN. DANA PITTARD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good afternoon, Victor.

Yes, the Russian forces are in a temporary operational and tactical pause. They lack the forces to be able to encircle and take the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv.

I would caution us though that what the Russian are doing by going to hasty defensive positions are waiting on additional forces that would come from a number of areas, whether it's Belarus, from Russia.

We're hearing reports there's Russian troops in Georgia that are being sent to Ukraine.

And also those forces are waiting on what's going on in the south. If Russian forces are successful in the south and reach their objectives, then those forces will be released to move to the Ukrainian capital.

So this is just a temporary pause, I believe.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about forces coming in from Georgia. Georgia here, just south of Russia. Russian forces have been in Georgia since Russia invaded in 2008.

Talk more about the decision to bring troops from Georgia into Ukraine, potentially.

Also we learned today from a Russia official, the focus will be here. The focus will be in the Donbass region. And this will be where they will be putting the most of their energy.

What do you see with this decision?

PITTARD: Well, clearly, there weren't enough Russian forces that do all the things that President Putin wanted them to do, which was to take the capital of Kyiv, to secure eastern Ukraine, to secure between eastern Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula, as well as take over all of Ukraine.

He just didn't have the force structure for that.

So these troops from Georgia will be used to consolidate the areas in the east and the Donbass region while the Russian attacking forces will then be used to reenforce the forces in Kyiv so they can start to try to gain momentum again against the capital.

BLACKWELL: What we learned from Ukrainian defense forces is that there were likely troops going to be sent down from Kharkiv, also coming up from Kherson, and then try to encircle the east of the country here.

Of course, they already have developed this land bridge from the Donbass, down to Crimea, which is, of course, is strategically important.

Let me ask about this request from President Zelenskyy. He says, in order to fight the Russians, they need 500 of the anti-tank missiles, 500 of the anti-aircraft missiles, the Javelins and the Stingers per day.

What do you think about that number? Does that sound about right?

PITTARD: It does. In fact, that President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian forces and leadership are seeing is a loss of momentum on the part of the Russian forces.

Now is the time to do a counteroffensive. Now is the time to pounce on the Russian forces that have halted.

Once they're halted, they're easier to hit by the Ukrainian forces. So it's a legitimate request and should be honored.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of punching on forces, one of my colleagues spoke with a retired U.S. fighter pilot, who watched an interview with two Ukrainian fighter pilots.

And he said that it is -- it would have been unimaginable that this fight would be happening without American assistance in the skies.

Watch part of the interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

"JERSEY," AIR FORCE VETERAN WHO TRAINED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER PILOTS: And when I see these guys doing what they're doing, I want to say I feel immense pride. But I also feel a little ashamed.

[14:55:04]

Because when we trained them, it was always understood we would be beside them when this moment happened based on the commitments our nation made to them in the Budapest Memorandum in 1994.

We never once thought that they would be fighting this fight alone. I totally expected to be beside them doing that. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: He says "shame" he feels.

What do you tell that veteran, General?

PITTARD: I would tell him that, in some respects, I agree.

I think it's time, either through the United Nations or NATO, led by the United States, and working with President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian government, to declare west Ukrainian as a humanitarian- assistance zone, all of western Ukraine, going down as far as Odessa.

And to move in NATO troops to protect refugees and civilians at that point. It would be a peace-enforcement operations. But being prepared for combat on the ground, as well as a no-fly zone of western Ukraine.

Now there are very few Russian forces there so less chance for conflict or tension. Russian forces will be warned to stay out of that area.

But, yes, there's more that we would be doing like that.

BLACKWELL: Even considering that would be an escalation and the potential for direct conflict between the U.S. and Russia?

PITTARD: Yes. Russia has its hands full right now in eastern Ukraine with Ukrainian forces. There's very little they could do except huff and puff if a humanitarian-assistance zone was declared in western Ukraine --

BLACKWELL: All right.

PITTARD: -- enforced by NATO on the ground and in the air.

BLACKWELL: All right, retired Major General Dana Pittard, thank you.

PITTARD: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: President Biden arrived moment ago in Poland's capital. He's set to meet with Ukrainian refugees tomorrow and deliver what's being described as a "major address." We'll take a look ahead, next.

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