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Western Leaders Tout Unity After Emergency Summits; Klitschko Brothers Lead Battle to Keep Russians Out of Kyiv; Greek Prime Minister is Interviewed on War in Ukraine; Kim Jong-un Oversees ICBM Launch; Officials Warn Russia May Use Chemical Weapons; Refugees in Romania Use Dance to Deal with Trauma. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired March 25, 2022 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT: Hello and welcome to our viewers around the world and in the United States this hour. I'm Hala Gorani, live Lviv, Ukraine. It is just past six in the morning in this western Ukrainian city.

[00:00:04]

And we begin this hour with new reports of heavy fighting north of Kyiv, the capital. But Ukrainian forces say they're recapturing territory east of the capital, reversing some previous Russian gains.

And we have some new video from Irpin, northwest of Kyiv, showing huge clouds of smoke and buildings on fire. You see the extent of the devastation there. The mayor tells CNN that the city has come under heavy rocket fire from Russian forces, but that Ukraine's army still controls about 80 percent of the town.

And then in the southeast, we have new video from Mariupol along the southern coast, showing a downed power line tower, streets littered with debris, and apartment complexes reduced to rubble. It is just absolutely scenes of devastation there.

Russian forces have been pounding the city for weeks. Nearly every single building in the area has been destroyed or damaged.

And a U.S. assessment concludes that Ukrainian forces were likely behind the attack on a Russian warship in the port city of Berdyansk, which is occupied by the Russians.

Ukraine claims that the ship was destroyed. You see a big plume of smoke and an active fire there and that two others that turned around in a hurry and left the area were damaged in this attack.

Now, the fighting in Ukraine did not stop while U.S. and European leaders gathered for three emergency summits in Brussels. The meetings produced a stern warning to Russia against using chemical weapons in Ukraine.

The U.S. unveiled new sanctions on more than 300 Russian lawmakers. And President Joe Biden said he supports expelling Russia from the next G-20 summit in November. At the end of the day, the clear message was that western leaders are united in their support for Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Putin was banking on NATO being split. My early conversations with him in December and early January, it was clear to me he didn't think we could sustain this cohesion.

NATO has never, never been more united than it is today. Putin is getting exactly the opposite of what he intended to have as a consequence of going into Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Well, our international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, is live this hour in Brussels. And what a difference one American president makes. Because we will remember, of course, under Donald Trump, so much NATO's skepticism and criticism of big international organizations and multilateralism.

And here, we have a pretty united front from western, NATO and E.U. countries, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this is, you know, a reset, a difference. That's what Biden promised to bring. He promised to be, you know, a standard bearer, if you will, for democracy and has found himself at the center and leading the unity of democracies against an autocrat on the child trying to overrun a would-be democracy in the country next to him in the Ukraine.

President Biden came to Brussels with that express purpose of making sure that there was unity, making sure that all the efforts that have been put in place so far, like sanctions like ramping up NATO troops on the eastern flank of NATO, that all of that is continued. That the unity is maintained. That that force that's been put on the eastern flank of NATO remains, and that it is continued. For the decisions to come from NATO on that in June, the leaders' summit in Madrid later this year.

But I think, you know, you paint this stark contrast with President Biden and President Trump. And we are in an entirely different place. And really, you do have a president of the United States who is leading the sort of democratic world order at the moment.

And the message not just for Russia to stop the fighting in Ukraine, to pull out of Ukraine, but for Belarus, as well. Not to exacerbate and worsen the situation in Ukraine. And a message for China, as well, that they need not to give military and economic support to Russia. And that they need to take a position along with the other international democracies in the world. So this is a much different place, as you say, Hala.

GORANI: Well, it's a united front publicly, but of course, there are some disagreements on the final, perhaps most drastic steps that these alliances can take. One would be imposing a no-fly zone or even a humanitarian assistance zone over western Ukraine. We're not there yet.

And also, there's this idea of really sanctioning the energy sector as a whole in Russia. And you have countries like Germany that are opposed to that right now, because they truly rely on Russian oil to the extent that stopping those shipments would result in, according to the German chancellor, a real painful recession.

ROBERTSON: You have the same message coming from Charles Michel, the president of the European Council. I spoke also today with the Greek prime minister. He said the same thing.

There is a limit to the pain that can be put on the populations of the European Union. What he alluded to there, the Greek prime minister when I spoke to him, was you know, the potential for -- for unrest and disquieted populations.

He and many southern European states are looking for the E.U. to provide a cap on energy prices at the moment. They need that because it's really hurting their economies.

So the idea that they would willingly worsen that situation by -- by blocking Russia's energy, oil and gas supplies to Europe, thereby furthering themselves more and putting up those energy prices more. The idea that they would do that, is perhaps one of the principal reasons that there weren't those additional sanctions today.

So there are divisions within Europe along the eastern flank of NATO. They're much more robust. The ideas that we've heard from the Polish president that there should be an economic blockade on the land and sea borders with Russia.

These maximalist approaches from some E.U. nations. And the others that, as you say, are concerned about rising energy costs. That points to divisions within the European Union.

And then you have that sense, as well, that the United States suffers less if there's a -- if Russian oil supplies and gas supplies to Europe are blocked.

The United States suffers less from refugees. It suffers less from the humanitarian outfall of what happens in Ukraine. And that's partly why we heard President Biden saying that the United States will take 100,000 refugees, why the United States would commit, you know, a billion dollars for the humanitarian assistance.

But it doesn't, if you will, really ameliorate that sense for some nations here in Europe that the United States gets to suffer less and that there are gaps and differences.

But again, that gets to that point you were talking about before, the importance of President Biden's visit. The importance of not being a president like President Trump and be able to bring and find unity where there is unity.

So you could look at this and say, President Biden recognized that he couldn't push the E.U. and NATO partners too far or as far as he would like to go.

And I think that is also an analysis you can make from what has happened here. There aren't a new big raft of sanctions. And there are other decisions that could have been taken in terms of military supplies that haven't. And that's because of differences among all the nations here.

GORANI: Interesting now. Angela Merkel is gone. So no more female heads of state at all. I mean, we have Ursula van der Leyen, which is not an actual head of state. She's obviously a leader within the E.U. It's all men there among the big economies of NATO, the NATO alliance, and the G-7.

Thanks very much, Nic Robertson in Brussels.

The U.S., the United Kingdom and other countries are funneling millions of dollars in armaments into Ukraine.

Ukraine's most recent requests is for thousands more anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles. But Western allies are drawing the line on sending fighter jets. As Ukraine's president addressed the NATO summit on Thursday, he pleaded for a small piece of NATO's entire arsenal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): Ukraine has asked for planes so that we don't lose so many people. And you have thousands of warplanes, but we haven't been given any. You have at least 20,000 tanks. Ukraine asked for 1 percent, 1 percent of all your tanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GORANI: Joining me now from Brisbane, Australia, is Peter Layton. He's a visiting fellow at the Griffith Asia Institute. Thanks for being with us.

Why do you think there's so much hesitation on the part of the United States, among other countries? Hesitation to provide fighter jets if Ukrainian pilots are flying them? What's the concern there?

PETER LAYTON, VISITING FELLOW, GRIFFITH ASIA INSTITUTE: I think that the president -- the president's latest call perhaps indicates that there's a change in the war, as well. But the Ukrainian forces are now starting to take the offensive.

And hence, the call for additional tanks.

GORANI: I understand the point about the NATO countries not wanting to be drawn into a direct confrontation with Russia. If, for instance, Poland, which is supporting the idea provides fighter jets to Ukraine, and Ukrainian pilots fly those -- those aircrafts, why is that more of a concern then providing anti-aircraft weaponry or RPGs or missiles, that type of thing?

LAYTON: I think for the past month, that the NATO leadership has been focused upon the Ukrainians defending their -- their territory. The Ukrainians are flying about -- so I understand, about 20 sorties a day with their aircraft. Whereas the Russians are flying a couple hundred soldiers.

Whether giving the Ukrainians additional aircraft would make that much difference is debatable. At the same time, though, NATO has decided to put four extra battle groups into the southern NATO frontier states.

It could be that NATO is about to get serious about re-supplying the Ukrainians with more than just anti-tank weapons and anti-aircraft missiles. And they're trying to beef up their defenses on the off chance that Russia at some stage decides they will hit Ukraine's resupply lines. I would also say that --

GORANI: So the --

LAYTON: The latest words about the -- the possibilities of chemical warfare are hinting at some future NATO move, as well.

GORANI: I'm going to get to that in just a moment. But first, let me ask you about what Ukraine is saying it needs in order to enforce its own, quote unquote, no-fly zone, which we understand NATO is not willing to do right now.

Can they, if they are given enough anti-aircraft weaponry? Because there's a difference between a missile that you can -- you know, a shoulder-launched missile, or a weaponry system that you can take a low-flying aircraft with, and the type of antiaircraft weaponry system that you need to hit much higher flying planes, which the Ukrainians don't necessarily have.

LAYTON: I think they could put up a good air defense in the western part of the country. As you say, Russian aircrafts have to fly very high because they have effectively ran out of smart weapons. And they're just -- and they're just dropping down -- dropping down bombs.

So the Ukrainians are clearly getting air defense information out of NATO forces. So they are tracking Russian aircraft. It's obviously a judgment call about NATO's part, whether they feel those extra aircraft would make a guided difference.

At some point, there would be a psychological change, though, where NATO feels that they need to -- they need to -- to get them regardless of their concerns of escalation.

GORANI: And Peter, just one last one on the threat of the use of chemical weapons. You started telling us about how NATO might be changing its approach to helping Ukraine with that threat hanging over -- over the region?

LAYTON: I think that last night's statement by President Biden about the chemical weapons would trigger a response in kind was certainly setting out a red line there.

The U.S. and the Europeans used long-range cruise missiles against Syrian forces when they started using chemical weapons, against just the forces using chemical weapons. If Russia starts using chemical weapons in the Ukraine, I think there's a possibility that NATO will use its military forces for -- for pinpoint attacks to, in fact, take out those Russian chemical warfare units.

GORANI: And then you have what they're trying to avoid, which is a direct confrontation. Peter Layton in Brisbane, Australia, thank you very much for joining us.

They are former boxing champs. Now they are fighting for their homeland against the Russians. Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, we will speak exclusively to the Klitschko brothers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:18:52]

GORANI: Well, in the battle to keep the Ukrainian capital, Kyiv, from falling to the Russians, you probably could not find two tougher fighters.

Kyiv's mayor, Vitali Klitschko, and his brother Wladimir, know how to go toe to toe with an opponent. Both are former world heavyweight boxing champions, and they are vowing to defend their city.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen spoke exclusively with the Klitschko brothers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Vladimir Putin continues his assault on Ukraine, the U.S. believes taking the capital of Kyiv remains Russia's main goal.

But the city's mayor, former world boxing champ Vitali Klitschko vows Putin's troops will not enter this town. We met the mayor and his brother Wladimir Klitschko, himself a former boxing champion, in a secret location in Kyiv.

(on camera): Do you think that you have what it takes to fend them off completely, and that the city will not be taken by Russia?

MAYOR VITALI KLITSCHKO, KYIV, UKRAINE: It is our hometown. We never go to sleep. We don't want to be slaves. We don't want to beg the USSR to leave (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We see our country as modern European democratic country.

[00:20:08]

PLEITGEN: The Klitschkos are on the move 24/7, visiting residential areas shelled by the Russian army, sometimes getting emotional when seeing the aftermath of the Russian attacks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Putin says he's only targeting military targets. Bullshit, sorry. Where is the military target?

PLEITGEN: Comforting those affected by the war and overseeing the effort to train those looking to confront Russian forces. (on camera): You really stepped up and really have organized the

defense of the city. How did you manage to do that, learning that so quickly? Learning that on the fly?

V. KLITSCHKO: We don't need to organize. I meet people. We're very peaceful profession. Actors, musicians, doctors, never ever have idea to take the uniform and take the weapons in their hand. But right now, they're in the street and ready to fight.

A few days ago, that apartment building destroyed. One man, around 60 years old, coming to me and asked what they've been doing? What do I have to do right now? I give him a proposal to elevate him to my safety zone, to western Ukraine.

He told me, Mr. Klitschko, my mayor, I don't want to leave from my hometown. Please, give me weapons. I am ready to defend my family, my lovely Kyiv.

Instead of panic, instead -- instead of demoralization, the people are motivated so much and have the spirit to defend our future.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): But they're up against a strong and better equipped foe. As President Biden visits Europe to meet NATO allies, the Klitschkos' messages get tougher on Putin.

(on camera): What are your demands? What do you guys need to continue this fight?

WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO, KYIV BRIGADE OF UKRAINIAN DEFENSE FORCE: Our will is strong. And it's better and stronger than any army and any weapon. But we definitely need to close our sky.

Our civilians and our cities are getting destroyed. And it's continuing while we're giving this interview and speaking about it. The fights are still going on.

We need supply of the defensive weapons. And you guys just need to stop any economical relationship with Russia. This way, we will isolate them, make them weaker and just show that international law cannot be broken.

Oil. Obviously, the world needs oil and gas. But it's better to pay higher price than to pay with lives for that oil.

PLEITGEN: And so you guys obviously, you want a no-fly zone, I gather, and aircraft -- anti-aircraft systems and the like to beat the Russians in the sky. That's one of the most important things, right?

W. KLITSCHKO: If you supply us with defensive weapons, we're going to close the skies on our own. We have enough men and women that are going to stand for the country and will defend it as strong, as much as possible. And we're going to close the sky on our own. We just need the defensive equipment for that.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Vitali Klitschko knows Joe Biden well. The two met both in Washington D.C. and in Kyiv when Biden was vice president and the U.S. front man for Ukraine policy in the Obama administration.

(on camera): What's your message to Joe Biden as he comes to Europe?

V. KLITSCHKO: Stay with Ukraine. Thank you very much for support. Support Ukraine. With our friends, we are much stronger. It's our future. It's our freedom. We're ready to fight for that. But we need support for whole democratic world.

PLEITGEN: The Klitschkos are international celebrities with massive fan bases in both the U.S. and in Europe. And yet they say, for them, there is no other place they want to be than in Kyiv, despite the dangers.

(on camera): You're some of the prime targets for the Russians, you know. They're out to get you. Why do you do it? What motivates you?

V. KLITSCHKO: It's our homeland. It's our parents here. We've grown up. It's our country. It's our home. And the simple answer, we have to be here.

W. KLITSCHKO Do you know this expression of roots? Our roots are here.

Our father, that was one of the Chernobyl survivors, and he was one of the liquidators that buried in Kyiv. And he's Ukrainian as could be.

[00:25:06]

Our relatives, our friends, every single street reminds us on some memories in life. And that's something that gives you so much strength. Because the truth is on our side.

This is -- pretty much reminds me like in a fairytale. The fight between the good and the evil.

PLEITGEN: Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GORANI: That was Vitali and Wladimir Klitschko, speaking to our Fred Pleitgen.

Western leaders are talking in Brussels about how to tighten the screws on Russia, but the Greek prime minister is warning that that may backfire on the E.U. His exclusive interview with CNN is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:30:06]

GORANI: Well, as the fighting rages in Ukraine, western leaders are trying to show that they stand united in Brussels. But the Greek prime minister is warning about the price tag of sanctions on Russia.

He gave an exclusive interview to CNN's Nic Robertson, who joins us again from the Belgian capital -- Nic. ROBERTSON: Yes. Kyriakos Mitsotakis is concerned about the rising energy costs in Europe at the moment. Indeed, he's been a proponent of the European Union trying to find a way to cap those energy costs. Not all European Union nations feel the same way.

He really feels that there should be a much stronger drive for -- for stopping using hydrocarbons and moving towards renewables, like -- like wind, like solar, things that, actually, Greece has in abundance.

But that sort of, if you will, undergirds one of the differences in the European Union at the moment. And as Russia potentially puts on pressure on the European Union by throttling back gas and oil supplies, and the European Union considers not buying Russia's oil and gas as part of a sanction package, this really begins to sort of show up some of the differences within the European Union.

And that's one of the things I talked to him about. But I began by asking him about the mood inside that NATO leaders' meeting on Thursday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYRIAKOS MITSOTAKIS, GREEK PRIME MINISTER: I'd say a somber mood. And understanding that our world has changed. I think all of us, when we were elected to power, we never contemplated that we'd have to deal with a war on European soil. This is completely inconceivable. This is exactly what is happening.

ROBERTSON: Greece has given military support.

MITSOTAKIS: Greece has given a lot of humanitarian and also military support. We are -- we're currently hosting approximately 15,000 Ukrainians. We know we have to do much more.

But we're a country that is at the forefront of refugee crisis in the pass. So we're very, very sensitive, in terms of making sure that we can provide a safe place for Ukrainian refugees. And we will need. We know that in Europe, we all need to do more, because the numbers are just going to be overwhelming.

ROBERTSON: There's been a lot of talk about possibly blocking imports of oil and gas from -- from Russia to the European Union, but there are concerns. The -- the cost of energy in Europe is going up. I know that's a concern to Greece.

You're looking to the European Union to find -- to find caps on the cost of energy and a solution for that. Is Europe and the European Union becoming divided under this pressure from Russia over the level and type of sanctions it can apply?

MITSOTAKIS: We have put together a massive package of sanctions unlike anything we have done in the past. And these sanctions actually do bite. You will see the Russian economy contracting by maybe 10 percent.

All the gains that Russia has made over the past decade could be eradicated within a year. So these are significant sanctions. And of course, when it comes to energy, we need to be very careful that whatever measures we take don't end up hurting us us more than they hurt Russia.

ROBERTSON: But isn't that the point of sanctions, though? It's sanctions rather than fighting a war? And the freedoms of Ukraine, and the freedoms that this war, in essence, is about, they don't come for free.

MITSOTAKIS: No. And --

ROBERTSON: And the European nations and the United States must expect some economic pain.

MITSOTAKIS: But we are already -- I think we are already paying a price. We certainly all need to reassess our goal forecast. We're faced with significant inflationary pressures as a result of the war. And energy costs are really hurting. And they're hurting our citizens.

But at the end of the day, as much as we have an allegiance to support Ukraine, we also have an allegiance to our citizens to make sure that they do not suffer more than they can actually bear.

ROBERTSON: Is America getting ahead of the pain that Europe can bear on this with what America would President Biden would like to see happen?

MITSOTAKIS: I mean, the truth is that the U.S. is much less dependent on Russian gas than -- than Europe is. This is a reality. And of course, the energy transition now for Europe, this is no longer just a climate story. It's a geopolitical story.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: I also talked to him about his assessment of President Putin's mental acuity at the moment. The idea that President Putin's officials still leave on the table the threat of use of tactical nuclear weapons. The idea that there are concerns that Russia may use chemical weapons.

He said that he thought some of that was saber-rattling. At the same time, he said he really hoped that President Putin could understand that there are red lines, bridges but you cannot cross and come back from.

He does hope that Putin doesn't cross those. He is concerned about it. But I think it paints that picture that there still the potential there for President Putin to back off and not be entirely alienating and pariah for the international community.

Although many nations around the table and NATO and the G-7 and the European Union council leader summit today, many nations may feel that, but that is not potentially a united position yet. There is scope for President Putin in the back of now. Although there is no indication whatsoever that he will do it however.

GORANI: Thanks very much, Nic Robertson live in Brussels.

I'll have a lot more from Lviv, Ukraine, at the top of the hour. But first let's go to John Vause in Atlanta.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hala, thank you. We'll see you again soon. But for now we turn our attention to North Korea and what appears to be a major escalation of its illicit weapons program.

According to state media, leader Kim Jong-un was on hand to watch the launch of the biggest ICBM ever made by the North and the first such test in five years.

This intercontinental ballistic missile was launched vertically, stayed in the air for 71 minutes, reaching a maximum altitude of more than 3,700 miles, traveling higher and longer than any previous missile tests before crushing into the waters between North Korea and Japan.

It fired on a standard trajectory. Experts believe the so-called monster missile could travel more than 8,000 miles, placing all the continental United States within range.

South Korea responded to the launch with a live fire test of its own missiles from land, a fighter jet and a ship. And along with the U.S. and Japan, condemned North Korea for violating U.N. sanctions.

When we come back, very real fears of chemical warfare in Ukraine, sparking all sorts of warnings which are growing louder. The warnings have done nothing so far to stop Russian aggression. So we'll assess the risk of a chemical attack or worse in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:41:01]

VAUSE: The Kremlin may insist the war in Ukraine is all going to plan, but the official who's potentially the most responsible for the military offensive has all but this disappeared.

Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu has not been seen in public for most two weeks, despite being described as the public face of Putin's war.

A web-based independent news outlet in Russia reported that Shoigu was unwell. And after reporters began to ask questions about his whereabouts in recent days, suddenly, on Thursday he briefly reappeared on state TV, apparently attending a meeting. But there was no indication when the meeting actually happened.

CNN pressed a Kremlin spokesman on the issue, who would only say the defense minister is busy.

The warnings to Russia from NATO, the U.S. and now the G-7 are growing louder. The message from the German chancellor was blunt: Don't do it; don't use chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in Ukraine.

At the G-7 summit in Brussels, Russian allegations that Ukraine is preparing to use chemical and biological weapons were flatly rejected. And after an emergency summit, NATO announced it would reinforce defense systems to counter any such attack.

The U.S. president continues to insist a Russian chemical attack or worse remains a very real threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would the U.S. or NATO respond with military action if he did use chemical weapons?

BIDEN: We would respond. We would respond if he uses it. The nature of the response would depend on the nature of the use.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Beth Sanner is a CNN security national analyst and a former deputy director of national intelligence for both the Trump and Biden administrations. She's with us this hour from Washington.

Beth, thank you for being with us.

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks, I'm glad to be here.

VAUSE: So a month into this war and the Russians have failed to achieve their main objective. The Ukrainian resistance has exceeded even the most optimistic assessments.

The Russian military is taking up defensive positions in some places. So is it fair to say the Ukrainians have won the first stage, but that only raises concerns about the next stage and what Putin is prepared to do.

SANNER: Well, I don't know if we can really characterize anyone warning at this stage. I mean, certainly, they have surpassed all expectations. And in that way they're winning, right? They haven't lost. And I think that definitely, as a defender, not losing is winning.

But really, the danger is that we're entering this new phase of war where we have a stalemate. And it is a more dangerous phase.

VAUSE: I want you to listen to NATO's secretary general talking about preparations which are being made by the alliance in the event that Russia would use chemical or biological weapons. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: Our top military commander, General Walters, has activated NATO's chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear defense elements. Our allies are deploying additional chemical and biological and nuclear defenses to reinforce our existing battle groups.

(END VIDEO CLIP) VAUSE: He added that Ukraine will also receive special equipment to deal with a chemical attack. When the talking stops and the doing begins, what does that say about how serious the threat is?

SANNER: Well, I think it -- it is very serious. I mean, if you look at what's happening right now, the fact that they're actually taking steps to defend against a chemical weapons attack means that, to me, it's more just then the ongoing Russian rhetoric about a potential false flag that the Ukrainians might set off a chemical attack against their own people. That is continuing, but there must be more there.

And so I am guessing, as a former intelligence official, that there is intelligence this says there's more there, even though they don't have anything specific.

And so I think that this is the issue. You know, the summits -- the three summits today were amazing in -- in really exposing the genuine unity.

But at the point where Russia, if they are stupid and callous enough to actually set off a chemical weapons attack, if they did that, it would put that unity, the strains on that unity in a place that we have not seen.

[00:45:16]

Because any response, in my view, would require crossing some red lines.

VAUSE: Yes. And President Biden was very vague in terms of how NATO and the U.S. would respond to a chemical weapons attack. I want you to listen to the U.K. prime minister on the need for ambiguity. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I think that, if Putin were to engage in anything like that, the consequences would be very, very severe. You have to have a bit of ambiguity about your -- about your response, but I think it would be catastrophic for him, if he were to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: So explain the need for ambiguity. Why not set everything out on the table? You know, the action and the consequences? Or is it the fact that they can't do that at this point, because there is just not agreement?

SANNER: It could be both. I think that, you know one reason that you don't want to put a red line down is that it's very hard sometimes to follow through with those red lines, as we saw with Obama in the Syrian chemical weapons attack.

But I think the other thing is that, as I was saying before, when Biden says that he -- it would require a reaction in kind, that doesn't mean that we would use chemical weapons, because the United States doesn't have chemical weapons. We got rid of them when the Russians were supposed to, and they didn't.

What it means, genuinely [SIC] -- generally, is that you go after the unit that perpetrated that attack. Well, that's kind of complicated, because if it's dropped by an airplane, those airplanes are coming out of Belarus and Russia.

If you go after a unit, it's going to be a Russian unit on the ground. And so I think any kind of response that we would do in kind would somehow break the -- the red lines we've already set about the U.S. not being directly engaged.

Or, it might be something like we'll set up the no-fly zone. And if we said that now, people would say, Well, why don't you do it now to prevent it from happening? Without really understanding that that really does put us directly in a fight with the Russians.

VAUSE: And very quickly, the U.S. appears to, at least, be in the business of right now drawing up the responses in the event of this sort of event taking place, right?

SANNER: Yes, for sure. I mean, militaries plan all the time, but we have this tiger team that the White House set up four days after the invasion. They've gone through all of these. They've got different courses of action, as they call them, for a range of what these attacks might look like.

VAUSE: Beth, thank you so much. Beth Sanner there. We really appreciate your time and your insights.

SANNER: Thanks so much.

VAUSE: Ukrainian refugees are finding ways to deal with the hardships of war. How a simple dance class helping parents and children deal with trauma and loss. That story in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:52:16]

VAUSE: For so many new Ukrainian refugees, first there is relief crossing a border, finally safe from the Russian offensive. Then, a wave of emotion, from sadness, fear, anger, anxiety.

No wonder something as simple as dancing is a welcome distraction. A way to forget about the war and all it means, if only for a moment.

CNN's Miguel Marquez went to dance class in Romania for this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dance therapy for Ukrainian moms and their children fleeing war.

(on camera): How is the dancing, Yegor (ph)? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Awesome.

MARQUEZ: You're a very good answer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.

(voice-over): The not exactly shy Yegor Yutsak (ph), five and a half years old. He and his mom, Tatiana (ph), are from Kharkiv, Ukraine's second largest city.

Suffering indiscriminate Russian rocket and artillery attacks since the war's start.

(on camera): How are you doing? How's he doing?

(voice-over): "I'm playing soldiers," he says.

His mom adds, "Yes, soldiers. He's always saying, 'Air raid'."

(on camera): If me and you were playing air raid now, how would we play?

(voice-over): "Show them how you play," she says.

"I'm shooting at a tank," he says. "Any tank I can hit."

(on camera): How do you explain what is happening in Ukraine?

(voice-over): "He saw everything," she says. "And now, he's repeating it. I think he'll play regular games when this is over, and he calms down. Games like cars and trains."

"No, no," says Yegor (ph). "It will be the same. I like it."

Yegor (ph), his mom, and godmother are one of dozens of families being housed by Jesuit Refugee Service in the local children's cancer charity, Magic Association.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mothers, we see they can be tough when they're with their children, but when they come and speak to us privately, they break down.

MARQUEZ (on camera): You are a very good dancer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

MARQUEZ (voice-over): Yelena (ph) and Sofia Orlova (ph), 7 years old, arrived days ago from Dnipro. Russian attacks have been pushing toward, and hitting, the strategic Dnipro region. The city's population, nearly 1 million.

Orlova (ph) and several of her relatives are now refugees, but not everyone. "My son is 18 years old," she says. "He has an injured leg but wasn't

allowed to cross the border. My son is in Ukraine." She can barely speak the words.

Today's dance class, a welcome distraction.

"Today, this was a stress relief," she says. "For two days, we didn't eat or sleep, and we're grateful to relax."

The dance instructor, a refugee, too. He fled war in Cameroon.

"I want them to feel joy," he says, "because I know how it is to be in their places. It's very hard. It was very hard for me, too."

Sofia (ph) wanted to dance in Ukraine but was too young. Today, a bit of hope.

"My dream," she says, "came true."

A simple activity bringing comfort to moms and kids, refugees far from home.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Bucharest.

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VAUSE: I'm John Vause at the CNN center in Atlanta. Back to Hala Gorani, live in Lviv in a moment. But we leave you with the music of a 9-year-old piano prodigy, performing his own composition, written in hope of sending a message of peace to Ukraine.

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