Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Biden Blasts Putin: "This Man Cannot Remain In Power"; Biden: Russia Has "Strangled Democracy" With Ukraine Invasion; Interview With Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA); Preliminary Toxicology Report Released On Foo Fighter's Drummer; CNN On Scene As Multiple Blasts Rock Ukrainian City Of Lviv; Head Of U.S. Cybersecurity: The Russian Threat Is Real; New COVID Booster For Americans Over 50. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired March 26, 2022 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is a night of fire and fury here in Lviv.

From Russian missile attacks here this afternoon where we heard the explosions and then saw the terrifying results firsthand to the leader of the free world unleashing his anger at Vladimir Putin.

So angry, in fact, that, tonight, the White House walking back the most dramatic words of his speech across the border in Warsaw.

Words that the president didn't have in his prepared remarks to the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For god sake, this man cannot remain in power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So to many, that sounded like a call for a regime change. The White House denies that.

The Kremlin is not amused. And we're going to get into all of that in just a moment.

But something to keep in mind, perhaps above all else tonight. Ukrainian officials now say at least 136 children have died on Ukrainian soil in this war.

So 136 kids lost forever in just over a month's time. And 73 schools have been destroyed.

No child in Ukraine signed up to be a soldier. No school was built to be a military target. But those are the realities of this invasion tonight -- Pam?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Certainly, and we're going to check back in with you shortly there on the ground, Don. Well, President Biden is on his way home aboard Air Force One at this

hour but only after getting as close as he could to Ukraine, lashing out at Vladimir Putin repeatedly calling him a dictator.

And he didn't stop there. In fact, he might have gone further than he had planned.

Our senior White House correspondent, Phil Mattingly, in Warsaw with the president's emotional visit -- Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, White House officials made clear the president had a message he wanted to deliver at the end of this European trip.

It was a message delivered to the Ukrainians and certainly to Vladimir Putin. But, more importantly than anything else, a message to Western democracy about unity and the inflection point he now sees the world.

A message he absolutely delivered in a very forceful manner, including an ad-libbed line that went a little further than most White House officials wanted.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BIDEN: For god's sake, this man cannot remain in power.

MATTINGLY (voice-over): Tonight, President Biden delivering a forceful and dramatic condemnation of Vladimir Putin.

BIDEN: A dictator rebuilding an empire will never erase the peoples' love for liberty.

MATTINGLY: The White House later clarifying Biden was not calling for a regime change but an unmistakable message.

BIDEN: Ukraine will never be a victory for Russia.

MATTINGLY: As Biden delivered a clarion call to Western democracies at the moment of the highest stakes, drawing parallels to eastern Europe's emergence from Soviet rule.

BIDEN: It was a long, painful slog, fought over not days and months but years and decades. But we emerged anew in the great battle for freedom, a battle between democracy and autocracy, between liberty and repression.

MATTINGLY: The speech a capstone of a European swing defined by unity in the face of searing images of disaster just a border away.

BIDEN: Ukraine and its people are on the front lines fighting to save their nation. And their brave resistance is part of a larger fight for essential democratic principles that unite all free people.

MATTINGLY: Biden's remarks coming just hours after new Russian strikes in Lviv, just 40 miles from the Polish border.

And as Biden's caustic view of the Russian president grows even darker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: You're dealing every day with Vladimir Putin. Look what he's done to these people. What does it make you think?

BIDEN: He's a butcher.

MATTINGLY: And his warnings to the Russian leader of NATO's commitment grows sharper.

BIDEN: Don't even think about pulling on one single inch of NATO territory.

We have a sacred obligation --

(APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: We have a sacred obligation under Article 5 to defend each and every inch of NATO territory with the full force of our collective power.

MATTINGLY: In the final day of an urgent and hastily arranged trip to Europe that brought Biden face-to-face with dozens of Western leaders, he sat down with the Polish president, pledging close ties for the NATO country housing 10,500 U.S. troops.

BIDEN: We do acknowledge that Poland is taking on a significant responsibility. But I don't think it should just be Poland. It should be the whole world's -- all of NATO's responsibility.

MATTINGLY: And more than two million Ukrainian refugees, Biden meeting some first-hand.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTINGLY: And just hours after a surprise meeting with Ukrainian foreign defense ministers --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

MATTINGLY: -- a face-to-face sit down where Biden pledged even more U.S. support.

A welcome commitment for a country under siege and Western democracies facing a challenge now reshaping European power dynamics.

[20:05:04]

BIDEN: It will not be easy. There will be costs. But it's a price we have to pay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: And the president is now aboard Air Force One flying back to the U.S.

But just because the European trip is complete doesn't mean this issue is complete or dissipating in any way.

White House officials are very clear, they know it's a long road ahead.

It was really the genesis of the president's decision to make these remarks in Warsaw, to underscore that the Western unity that we've seen over the course of the last four months, it can't just be a one- time thing or one-month thing.

It has to be sustained, not for days or weeks or months but for years, maybe even longer as the world, at least according to the president, has entered a very clear and very real inflection point -- Pamela, Don?

LEMON: All right, thank you very much for that, Phil Mattingly, in Warsaw for us.

Anyone who thinks this war is confined to eastern Ukraine or the separatist areas of the Donbass need only to see and what we heard in Lviv today.

You don't get much further west in Ukraine than this.

First came the sound of the explosions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(EXPLOSIONS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So we thought this was far away but it only took us a few minutes to get to the scene. A fuel depot hit by one of at least two missiles that slammed into Lviv.

At least five people were hurt. The mayor of Lviv calling these targeted strikes.

The other strike, he says, caused significant damage to the city's infrastructure.

We saw a residential neighborhood only a block away from this attack.

Here's how I described the scene to John Berman today as it was unfolding.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Right now, you can see the firefighters and the rescue people racing in now to where this fire, really the center of this fire to try to get a hold on it.

But, yes, it is chaos. We're in a situation obviously not in the United States. Communications aren't great. We're in the middle of a war zone so there are some communication issues and technical issues, but this is what you're seeing here. And I just really want you to hear the roar of these chemical flames.

And as I said earlier, John, you can smell the smell of chemicals and smoke in the air.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: So my colleague, Phil Black, also saw the damage unfolding from miles away.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was around 4:30 local time Saturday afternoon that war in Ukraine finally came here to the Western city of Lviv, and this is the immediate aftermath.

This is where there were a series of explosions heard across the city. You can see that huge, black column of smoke spreading across the city.

It's not just a column of smoke that is huge. The flames really significant. And down there, you can see there are fire crews desperately trying to fight them.

It seems like, frankly, an insufficient effort. The hoses you can see being targeted into those flames look very small by comparison. Those flames are still burning ferociously and looks like they are set to do so for some time.

What is extraordinary is this is very much within the city limits of Lviv. It is very close to homes. It's a residential area very nearby, some high rise, lots of houses. Just to the left a huge shopping center.

This is clearly part of a very specific targeted campaign and tactic by the Russians because, in the last couple of days, a number of fuel depots in different locations across the country have been knocked down by the cruise missiles often launched from naval vessels by the Black sea.

Late last week, there was a big fuel depot near Kyiv. Just today, earlier on Saturday, they announced they hit another one near Mykolaiv. And now here in far western Ukraine in the city of Lviv.

Phil Black, CNN, Lviv, western Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right, our thanks to Phil Black here in Lviv.

I'm going to be back in just a few minutes speaking live with retired General Wesley Clark.

Pamela, if there was a false sense of security in this city today it was definitely shattered by those strikes. BROWN: Right. I can imagine how unnerving that must be for you, just

the fact they hit that fuel depot so close to the residential area, the homes right there, close to where you are standing right now.

And I imagine, Don, those air-raid sirens that go off in the city will take on a whole new meaning and sense of urgency in the wake of that strike.

We'll be back with you soon, Don.

And with me now Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton. He sits on the Armed Services Committee.

Hi, Congressman. Great to have you back on the show.

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Thank you.

BROWN: I want to start with what we heard the president saying today of Putin, quote, "This man cannot remain in power." And then you have the White House cleaning up his statement.

[20:10:01]

Do you buy the administration's cleanup that he wasn't talking about Putin's power but that Biden was simply saying Putin can't have power over his neighbors?

Do you really believe that?

MOULTON: Look, we don't want to advocate for regime change because regime change is one of those triggers that could actually cause Russia to escalate the war, maybe even use nuclear weapons.

But President Biden speaks from his heart.

And I don't know a single American other than maybe Margery Taylor Greene who doesn't want to see Putin gone.

BROWN: Marjorie Taylor Greene, interesting you threw her in there.

But, yes, I think the emphasis of what you said is that there's a difference between that coming from the president of the United States versus, you know, anyone else. Essentially, it carries more weight, more meaning.

The president also warned that Putin, not to even think about moving a single inch into NATO territory.

Could that mean like a misfire or plane wandering into the wrong airspace suddenly could throw the U.S. into war?

MOULTON: Well, this administration is going to be careful to make every decision based on the circumstances.

But the message to Putin is very clear, that NATO is holding strong. Don't think NATO is being weak here. And there's no reason for Putin to think that. But it's a message that

we need to continue to drive home.

NATO is standing strong. You see that through the sanctions, the unprecedented coalition come together, not even just through NATO but NATO leading the entire globe to stand up to Putin's illegal war.

But I think that Putin in a strange way is actually looking to escalate things with NATO.

He thought he could get to Kyiv and topple the government before NATO even noticed. Instead, this somewhat ragtag army in Ukraine is decimating the mighty Russian bear.

It's not going well for Putin and he's looking to turn it around.

It's a much easier sell for Putin to tell his people that this is a war against NATO than a war to just topple Ukraine where, of course, many Russians have friends, family, a lot of people they know.

BROWN: So with that in mind, that is the backdrop, I want to get your take on what we just heard from his top Russian general, given your military experience, Congressman.

He claimed the encirclement of Ukrainian cities has been a deliberate plan to throw Ukrainian forces off so that Russians can secure the Donbass region.

What do you make of that?

MOULTON: I think the Russians are changing tactics because they clearly intended to go to Kyiv just as quickly as possible.

And in fact, even after their initial push failed, they just lined up miles and miles and miles of troops, that huge convoy stretching for 40 miles, just to get more forces into Kyiv.

What's happened is they've realized they don't actually have the combat power or the will to take that capital city. So they've had to regroup and change strategy.

I don't think the Russians truly understand how difficult this fight is going to be inside the cities. That's why they're making an excuse for being outside.

It's very difficult to fight block to block in a city.

Pamela, I remember fighting through a city in Iraq. We were called in to actually support an American Special Forces unit that had been hit hard by -- by Iraqi insurgents.

We found ourselves in the building with a few men rolling grenades down the stairs. They were holding off about two platoons worth of American Marine and Army forces, just a few men rolling grenades down the stairs. That's how difficult it is to be the attacking force in the city. And

that's what the Russians are running up against right now in places like Kyiv.

BROWN: I think that's such an important context about urban warfare and why you're seeing some of these setbacks for the Russians.

In light of what you just said, do you think that Ukraine could actually win this war?

MOULTON: Well, Ukraine is winning right now, frankly. It surprised every military strategist there.

I mean, after visiting Ukraine in December, I didn't expect Ukrainians to do this well and the Russians to do this poorly.

But, of course, winning, at the end of the day, how do we define that? What is the final truce? What are the final terms that finally allow everyone to go home in peace?

I'm not sure we know what that the answer is. After all, we tried to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict before it began. It's been elusive all along.

I would say tactically, on the ground, Ukrainians are winning right now, but whether that translates into an eventual win strategically, that remains to be seen.

[20:14:59]

And it has actually, in some ways, become more strategically complicated, more strategically dangerous because Russia is doing so badly, because they might resort to things like weapons of mass destruction.

Because Putin is backed into a corner by how poorly his forces are performing against the Ukrainians.

BROWN: But there are some analysts who say that wouldn't be in Putin's best interest because then the territory that he wants to own, have control over, be part of the Russian empire would just be totally decimated.

Do you think that that would factor into his calculation of whether or not to use a nuclear bomb in Ukraine?

MOULTON: I certainly hope it would, Pamela. But the single scenario that's hardest to imagine right now is Putin withdrawing in defeat.

And as we said, on the ground, the Ukrainians are actually winning. It's back and forth. This is an undeniably tough fight.

And there's no question that Russia is unleashing all its combat power without any concern for morality. Not any concern for killing innocent women, kids, little girls and boys on the street.

They're doing everything they can and yet the Ukrainians are still holding them off and, in some places, actually pushing them back.

So we don't know what Russia might do. But what concerns me is that we have to find some sort of solution where Putin can tell his guys to go home without actually truly withdrawing in defeat.

Of course, we also have to balance that with the fact we do want to win enough that Putin gets the message that he can't go anywhere next.

BROWN: Right. It's a tricky, tenuous balance for sure.

Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you again.

MOULTON: Pamela, thank you.

BROWN: Coming up this hour, new information coming into CNN about the circumstances of rock drummer Taylor Hawkins' death.

Also ahead, a new poll reveals how many parents think classroom masks harms their kids. We'll also talk about the plan to offer another booster for people over 50.

And the chief cyber defense official in America talks to me exclusively about the malicious attack Russia could launch to disrupt life in the U.S.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've been very focused on preparation not panic. But I think we need to be eyes wide open on the seriousness of the threat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:34]

We're following breaking news this hour on the death of Rock Hall of Fame drummer, Taylor Hawkins. He died Friday at the age of 50.

A preliminary urine toxicology report just released from the Columbian attorney general's office says 10 substances were found in the musicians system, including THC, anti-depressants and opioids.

Authorities are still investigating and will soon release a report.

CNN's Chloe Melas has more on the news that has shaken friends and fans of the Foo Fighters famous drummer.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Pamela, the news of Taylor Hawkins death has rocked the music industry. Hawkins was the drummer for the Foo Fighters for more than two decades.

The band announced the news in a statement shortly after they were to play a concert in Columbia saying they were, quote, "devastated."

I spoke to a longtime friend of the band earlier today, music and TV executive, Tom Calderone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM CALDERONE, LONGTIME FRIEND OF THE FOO FIGHTERS: My recollection with Taylor is simply one word. It's just joy.

There are people smarter than me that can talk about what a great drummer he was and everything. But when you're behind the drum kit it's hard to be a rock star but he was a rock star. And he's one of those guys that just people 8 to 80 would just smile when they saw him.

And there was a way of working with him, this definite self-awareness that he knew that he was a rock star, he knew that people loved him and loved the music and he had a responsibility to his fans.

But he also was a geek. He was also that music geek that would ask you questions about other bands that would come into MTV or VH1.

Or he would talk about hang bangers ball or what have you, and just got to a place where you realize this guy is just an incredible music fan and pop culture fan.

MELAS: Speaking of Dave Grohl and his relationship with Taylor, I've heard it described as a brother-type relationship. How do you think, the loss of Kurt Cobain and now this, what do you think is going through his mind right now?

CALDERONE: I think the sad part of this, yes, Dave has lost two important friends in the music industry.

Nirvana was a reluctant rock band. Foo Fighters were a positive rock bands that really loved being the essence of being a rock band.

I think they enjoyed the ride together with not a lot of stress.

You look at the way Dave would look back at Taylor when they were playing and performing, his smile, Taylor smiled back, and then the crowd smiled.

You would look in those crowds and just everybody was smiling and singing along. And when it was over, it was like, ah.

But when Taylor also stepped out of that drum kit and sang some Queen songs or some cover songs, everybody just gave him all the love.

And I think that kind of trust level on stage only comes from the trust level of being, frankly, a brother from another mother, and that's what they were. That's what they were.

MELAS: And lastly, Tom -- and thank you for your time -- if you could just talk to me about his impact on the music industry, Taylor, as a drummer, one of the greatest of all-time. Like when you think of Van Halen and you think about his mark. When

you think of Taylor, you think of, fill in the blank.

CALDERONE: I'll tell you, being a rock star behind the drum kit is tough. But what Taylor provided was the fact that music can still be fun.

I think music has become such a commodity now with streaming and everything else, they brought light to music.

[20:25:06]

I think there was not one person that didn't plan their summers around a Foo Fighters concert whenever they went on tour.

I don't think there was anybody that missed a Foo Fighters concert when they came to town because of the joy they brought.

And I think what Taylor did was bring and elevate a musician like a drummer to say that they can be a personality. They don't always have to be necessarily a hired gun.

And there's very few of them out there, Metallica and drummers like that, that are personalities and, frankly, can do great interviews. Taylor was great on camera. You saw him in the movie "Studio 666."

That's what's bugging me is that there's so much for this guy to do on earth creatively and, again, the joy he brought to his fans. And it's -- it's going to be a tough one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:05]

LEMON: So this afternoon as President Biden met with NATO allies in Poland, some Russian missiles landed and exploded right here in the Lviv, very near where I am now. Some people are hurt, thankfully though nobody reported killed.

But it's the latest in a series of escalations from Russian forces. Retired U.S. Army General, Wesley Clark, joins me now. He is a former NATO Supreme Allied Commander. General, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us. I was watching you this afternoon. And I thought your comments were spied on -- or spot on. I want to talk to you more about this.

This afternoon, the President of the United States talked about Vladimir Putin. And he said and I quote here, cannot remain in power, his words. I mean, we should know note, the White House quickly walked that back. But even still, is it out of the question for the U.S. to push for a change in leadership in a place like Russia? I mean, it's certainly been part of the American policy toward hostile countries before. WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: You know, Don, when I heard the President say that, I immediately thought back to Barak Obama's statement about Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, 2010 2011, something like that. President Obama said a man like that doesn't deserve to be president, people thought, well, he's going to do something about this, but we didn't.

It's -- what we need to do is not talk about regime change in Russia, we need to give Ukraine the tools it needs to finish the fight against the Russians on the ground in Ukraine. That's the best antidote for Vladimir Putin's evil nature. And it's the best protection for NATO and the United States. We're holding back on that for some reason. Those always makes and other aircraft that could be brought in, most of us don't see the distinction between a drone and a MiG.

I mean, they're all done by the Ukrainians give them what they need. There's a narrow window of time right now, in which the Russian forces are sort of reeling back. And Ukrainians have begun attacks. But without enormous supplies of weapons, ammunition, and increasingly fuel, those Ukrainian counter attacks are not going to eject Russia. So we need to not be talking about Putin so much, although the speech was great in terms of rallying, you know, support for NATO and for the Ukrainians. But the actions have to be directed at assisting the Ukrainians.

LEMON: I want to talk about those missile strikes this afternoon here in Lviv. And it wasn't too far from the border with Poland, as a matter of fact, obviously not too far from where we are, in addition to targeting the city, are these missile attacks a way for Russia to send a message to NATO and its allies by striking -- especially so far west into Ukraine?

CLARK: I think they do send a message. There's no doubt about it. But I also think that this is part of Russia's finally coming to grips with the realities of what's happening to it in Ukraine. I think they began this war without understanding the need to do strategic targeting on military relevant targets in Ukraine.

So in the last few days, we've seen in striking fuel depots, OK, that's a valid military target. If the Ukrainians don't have fuel, they'll have trouble doing counter attacks. And the next set of targets is going to be something like the electricity grid. They're already tried to take out the telephone towers.

So these are targets that probably the Russians just -- they didn't have their planning in order, their command or control has been weak, but they're catching up. So, yes, there's a political message behind this, but don't doubt the seriousness of Vladimir Putin's intent to defeat Ukraine and take it over.

That's the key. And Ukrainians are bound and determined not to be forced into some compromise, let's say by certain European countries to say I'll just give up part of our country and maybe this horrible war will start. I'm hearing from my Ukrainian friends that they're not buying that they want to defeat Russia. They're just asking for the military support they need. LEMON: Yes. Well, let's talk about that, because not long after those strikes, the mayor here in Lviv gave a public statement calling for air defenses to protect the city. What can the United States or as allies offer, other than what they're doing now considering their non- member status of Ukraine?

CLARK: Well, first of all, they can do more intelligence sharing than they're doing. Secondly, they can stop the silly discussion of backfilling essay three hundreds and so forth. Get the essay 300 words in there, get the other air defense systems that are available on the commercial market, get them in there.

[20:35:04]

We've got a lot of so-called friends and allies that are actually holding out on us when we're asking them for support for Ukraine. And it's as though they don't understand that these rules based international order is what's keeping them afloat, too. So they're kind of Finch sitting right now.

And the third thing, Don, is we need to be able to give Ukraine the air support it needs, doesn't have to be NATO air, doesn't have to be NATO pilots, but they just need the aircraft. If they've got additional aircraft, they can keep the recognizance at bay. And they can either still be some missile strikes to get through, but they've got -- that would give them the support they need to be able to handle the Russian forces that are currently bogged down around Kyiv and in the south.

LEMON: All right. General Wesley Clark, thank you so much. We'll see you soon. Appreciate it.

CLARK: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Pamela, back to you.

BROWN: All right. Thanks so much, Don. Well, government officials are warning Americans about the threat of Russian cyber-attacks.

Next, my one-on-one interview with the head of U.S. cybersecurity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN EASTERLY, DIRECTOR OF THE CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: Americans everywhere need to take this threat very, very seriously.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:40:54]

BROWN: In our high-tech world, warfare is no longer limited to just battlefields and artillery, cyber-attacks are a real and growing threat. Just Thursday, the Justice Department accused four Russian officials, members of a criminal and security service called the FSB of cyber-attacks on critical U.S. infrastructure between 2012 to 2018, including a nuclear power plant in Kansas.

In a CNN exclusive, I sat down with Jen Easterly, an American intelligence and former army official who is now director of the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency called CISA. And I began with a question about what that indictment indicates.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EASTERLY: So what I'll say is, and I think the most important thing to understand here is the threat is very real. As the President talked about earlier this week, we are seeing intelligence that points to the Russian government to include actors like those indicted yesterday, exploring options for potential cyber-attacks. And we know this is part of the Russian playbook.

So the indictment yesterday, I think just further reinforces that Russian malicious cyber activity is a severe and persistent threat to critical infrastructure around the world to include here in the homeland.

It was pretty unprecedented to see the president of the United States, earlier this week, make a specific statement about Russian cyber activity and a focus on exploring options for potential cyber-attacks. So why should Americans care about that? Well, at the end of the day, these networks, these systems, this data, this is really what underpins our daily lives. It's our power, it's our water. It's how we get money from the bank. It's how we get gas at the pump. It's how we get food at the grocery store, that infrastructure is at risk of malicious cyber activity.

As Americans, we live our lives online. Our bank accounts are online, we shop online, our photos are online, we're all walking around with iPhones or Androids in our pockets. This is really the digital world that underpins everything that we do. And that's what's at risk to malicious cyber activity. And so we are very focused on making sure that businesses are doing everything they can to shore up their security and resilience, but Americans need to do the same.

BROWN: I want to quickly ask you about your personal experience before this. You worked in the private sector, you also used to work at the NSA. And I'm curious how you were using your past experience in the private sector and also at the NSA when your job was to break into computers, essentially, how you're applying that now here in your role? And are you putting yourself into the shoes of Russian intelligence officers, what they may be thinking and doing from your past experience?

EASTERLY: It's a really great question. So, you know, CISA's new. We were created to be America's Cyber Defense Agency to keep Americans safe from malicious cyber activity. It's really important to understand how adversaries think. I like to talk about it as adversarial empathy.

And so being on the offensive side, having been working at the National Security Agency, standing up the Army's first cyber battalion, helping to stand up U.S. Cyber Command, you understand how cyber actors operate. And understanding that adversarial playbook often makes it easier or at least helps to facilitate an understanding of how you put your defenses up, how you go shields up.

Is your concern now that the intent is there, because the Russians are feeling the squeeze from the sanctions? Is that what makes this moment different?

EASTERLY: I think what makes the moment different is just seeing what the Russians have done with this unprovoked invasion of Ukraine and then understanding there can be some very real consequences of that in cyberspace, particularly because malicious cyber activity is part of the Russian playbook. And so there could be unintended cascading consequences from Russian attacks, cyber-attacks in Ukraine, in Europe.

[20:45:07]

There could be an uptick in ransomware activity. And there could be deliberate retaliatory attacks for the very severe, very punitive sanctions that the U.S. and our allies have come together as a community to levy on Russia.

And Russian -- the Russian government may feel like they can use these capabilities, this preparatory activity, the exploration for potential cyber-attacks to have a real impact on the American people.

BROWN: So you talked about putting yourself in the shoes of a Russian intelligence officer, what kind of pressure do you think they're under for Putin right now?

EASTERLY: Yes, I think that's really (INAUDIBLE) question. Just the innovation, I don't think it's gone, as Putin would have liked or expected. And so I would imagine that there is a lot of pressure, a lot of stress on not just the Russian military, but against the Russian intelligence officers because in my view, he was probably ill- advised on how well this unprovoked invasion was going to go. And some of that is due to the incredible courage and bravery and resilience of the Ukrainian people. But some of it, I think, was just a miscalculation on the part of the Russian government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And coming up later, more with Jen Easterly and the simple things that you can do to protect your own data from cyber-attacks.

Well, Americans over 40 could soon be allowed to get another COVID booster shot. I'm going to ask Dr. Megan Ranney if we're going to all wind up needing another booster soon. She joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:50:08]

BROWN: Well, COVID cases ticked up again this week. The seven-day average edged up for the first time since the start of the year while Europe rides a new way fueled by the contagious Omicron subvariant, Dr. Anthony Fauci says he's not worried about a, quote, major surge in the U.S., unless something dramatically changes.

Hospitalizations are not expected to rise again, even if cases do spike. Axios, this week also mapped out how the pandemic has been quote deadlier in red states, purportedly showing a correlation between personal politics and resistance to vaccines and pandemic policies.

So let's go over all of this with a doctor who has been on the frontline throughout the pandemic. Hi, Dr. Ranney. Good to see you again. It's been a while since you've been on the show. I want to start on the seven-day COVID case average rising and point out again that hospitalizations though are continuing to fall. So what should the takeaway be for us?

MEGAN RANNEY, PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE: We're starting to see a rise in cases in a handful of states as well as Washington D.C. and Puerto Rico, largely due to this more transmissible BA.2 variant, this new variant of Omicron, similar to what's been being seen in Europe.

But here's the thing, cases across the country are still tremendously low. And as you mentioned, we are not feeling this in hospitals. I worked in my emergency department last night, I talked with colleagues across the country. This is not like last fall where we felt this sense of impending doom. So for today, the big takeaway is press on Congress to reinvest that we have adequate monitoring of cases and adequate resources in case there is another surge.

Don't throw out your rapid tests or throw away your masks. But we are not yet on the brink of another surge like what we just came to. This may be a small blip. We may continue to have these for a while. It is not yet time to panic.

BROWN: We found out today that the FDA is expected to OK additional COVID-19 booster shots for adults over 50 next week. Will we all end up needing another booster shot?

RANNEY: At some point, we are all going to need another booster shot. I, in most other public health and medical experts, expect that it's probably going to be an annual shot just like the flu shot that we get in the fall at the start of respiratory virus season.

There may also be times when there are new variants or new surges where we ask everyone to go out and get a booster right away. Again, today is not that day for most Americans. This new approval is just going to give us the flexibility to ask for that if and when it's needed.

The one group though, that really does need to go out and get that fourth shot are folks who are immunosuppressed or, of course, specifically told to get a fourth shot by their doctor. Those people need a fourth shot today.

BROWN: I want to ask you about this new poll that's out. This is according to a new Harvard poll, 40 percent of parents think wearing masks at school harmed their kids. What is your reaction to that? RANNEY: It's unfortunate that folks feel that way. I mean, honestly, nobody loves wearing a mask. Also, nobody loves being in a car seat or putting their kid in a car seat. We put kids in car seats because it keeps them safer. Masks were necessary during surges, to keep our kids from getting sick and to keep them in school.

I think it's really unfortunate that we're conflating the sadness, the anxiety, and the grief from the pandemic. Remember, almost a million people have died. Untold millions more have been affected by this virus that we're conflating that with masks. Masks are just a piece of fabric. They're there to keep us safe. I hope that we can get over this politically-driven narrative if and when there is another surge and masks do potentially have to go back on.

BROWN: All right. Dr. Ranney, thank you so much for your time this evening. Don.

[20:55:01]

RANNEY: Thank you. Have a wonderful night.

BROWN: You too.

LEMON: Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Doctor.

Russian missiles landed in Lviv on Saturday. I was there moments after the strike and got a firsthand look at the destruction in the city in western Ukraine. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)