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White House Walks Back Biden Comments on Putin; Ukrainian Negotiations. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired March 28, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

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Ana Cabrera, Don Lemon pick up right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thank you so much for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Don Lemon is standing by in Lviv, Ukraine.

And one day before another round of peace talks, there is anything but peace in Ukraine. Russian forces are intensifying their assault, raining down missiles on four Ukrainian cities Sunday and ramping up shelling in the suburbs of Kyiv.

And, in Mariupol, new video shows a city in the process of being wiped off the map, the mayor there today saying we are in the hands of the occupiers. Those occupiers may seek to split Ukraine in two, according to top Ukrainian intelligence officials.

The plan could hinge on control of that key port city, but in Irpin, it's a different story. That city's mayor tells CNN Ukrainians have reclaimed the Kyiv suburb from Russian forces even as the capital is facing a near daily barrage of explosions.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And, Ana, it's an all-intense battle to drop to this face-to-face negotiations for tomorrow in Ukraine.

President Zelenskyy says that he is ready to discuss neutral status for his country, a key demand from Moscow.

I want to turn out to our reporters. They're all across the globe for us Ed Lavandera is here in Lviv, Ukraine. Nic Robertson is in Brussels. I want to bring in -- and Kaitlan Collins joins us from the White House.

I want to bring in now Ed Lavandera.

Ed, what's the state of play here on the ground?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're seeing a lot of different things in different parts of the country. So we will just kind of break them down.

We had airstrikes over the weekend, as we reported here, in Lviv, and also in cities close by overnight attacking fuel depots. And that is really kind of trying to strike at the heart of the equipment that's necessary for the Ukrainian army to do what it needs to do.

We have also heard from the mayor today of that suburb of Kyiv Irpin. They say that they have liberated that city. And we have reported on the city extensively for the last few weeks. It's a city that's been besieged, and has seen just some heartbreaking violence there. The mayor there says that that city has been liberated, but urging people not to come back. It's still not safe. They expect more attacks.

And then you have the situation down in the south, Mariupol, where the mayor there is saying that the city is now in the hands of Russian forces. This is a city that had 400,000 people. The mayor says there's still 160,000 people in the city. Right now, it sounds like they're focused on trying to evacuate those people. And the mayor is saying that Russian forces are preventing that from happening.

So you have 160,000 innocent civilians. And they're trying to figure out how to get them out to safety.

LEMON: And our crews have been hearing explosions off and on. Earlier this morning, we heard explosions, or at least our teams on the ground, in Kyiv. What's the very latest on that?

LAVANDERA: Well, that is part of what Ukrainian military officials are saying. And their concern is that Russian forces are basically trying to encircle the city, cut off the supply routes.

And that is what they're bracing against. Now, whether or not that can happen, given the news that we're hearing about Irpin and the liberation there is I think something that's still in question. But that's -- from what we're hearing today, Ukrainian forces are expecting Russian forces to focus on trying to circle Kyiv, cut it off from supplies.

And, obviously, that would be a very debilitating stranglehold there on the city. We will see if that comes to fruition. But that's the concern right now.

LEMON: I want to -- stand by.

I want to bring in Nic Robertson now.

Nic, how is Moscow approaching these talks, that Zelenskyy has said that he is open to some key demands, Ukrainian neutrality?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. Right now, President Putin's spokesman is saying this is not the time for Zelenskyy to meet with Putin. Essentially, there's not enough common ground. And I think that's what we're seeing. What's Zelenskyy is saying is that he is willing for Ukraine to have neutrality, provided it gets security guarantees.

And it's looking to Brussels here, NATO, the European Union to provide those security guarantees, along with the United States. But also to make this very significant move for Ukraine, it should have the support of the Ukrainian people, he's saying. That should come in a referendum.

But he's saying that the terms of the referendum should be such that the Ukrainian people feel free to vote. And he says that cannot happen while Russian forces are still in the country. So, what he is essentially saying is, Russia is going to have to pull back to pre- February 24 military positions outside of Ukraine before Ukraine can take that step.

So, while he is putting something on the table, it's a very high bar to get there. And the Russians don't seem to be interested in that. That's certainly what's coming from Peskov, Putin's spokesman, from Lavrov, the foreign minister, as well.

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And the intelligence officials in Ukraine at the moment are saying what they see Russia doing is trying to separate the country, north and south, cement that southern corridor, the land corridor, linking Russia to Crimea that we have heard so much about. And the evidence for that, Ukrainian intelligence officials are saying, is that Russians are insisting in those areas now that they put in their own parallel administrations and that the population there have to use Russian currency, as opposed to Ukrainian.

So, although there seems to be some commonality emerging, that commonality is tiny. It's -- the two sides are very far apart from a crossover at the moment.

LEMON: All right, from Brussels now to Washington, D.C., and the White House.

Our Kaitlan Collins joins us from there.

Kaitlan, as we understand, just within the last few moments, we're hearing that the president is going to take some questions, especially after some remarks made this weekend. And he is sure to be questioned about that. What do you know?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he is expected to take questions, according to the White House, which normally doesn't advertise that kind of thing when it's prepared remarks like this, which is going to be on the president's budget proposal, don.

Obviously, there's a press conference, they will tell you then he's going to take questions. But they went out of their way to say that he will take questions from reporters this afternoon. And, of course, Don, that comes after, yesterday, the president told reporters, no, he was not advocating for regime change when he made those famous remarks now at the end of his speech in Warsaw on Saturday night.

Of course, they are remarks where he said that Putin could not remain in power. Those were remarks that, as we reported, were not initially in the prepared remarks for the president's speech. It's something he had ad-libbed and added there at the end of that very forceful and powerful speech in Warsaw.

And it's something that in the days since, of course, has reverberated no, just around here in Washington, but also around the globe, with world leaders, including the French president, weighing in, saying those are not words that they would use, with Macron saying he's still having these regular conversations with Putin as they are trying to find a way out of this war that they have started in Ukraine, saying that he feared it could escalate things.

And it's something that, Don, within minutes of President Biden uttering those words, his aides came out almost immediately trying to clarify them, saying he was not advocating for regime change. They don't advocate for regime change anywhere in the world, they say.

And you have seen in the days since Secretary of State Blinken, the U.S. ambassador to NATO all have come out saying they do not have a policy of regime change in Russia. That is something they had said before. But, obviously, when the president made that statement at the end of his speech, it raised a lot of questions about, of course, whether or not that was something he meant.

And it comes as he has also been ramping up his language against President Putin, calling him a butcher, calling him a war criminal, all of these denunciations of him after he met face to face with Ukrainian refugees that he has forced from their country because of this invasion, Don.

LEMON: Yes, even calling him a thug.

It's going to be interesting, Kaitlan, to see what he has to say about that. Those comments certainly blew up.

So, thanks to our Kaitlan.

Kaitlan will be watching to see what the president has to say. Thanks to Nic in Brussels, and, of course, our man Ed Lavandera here on the ground in Ukraine.

I will send it back to you right now in New York, Ana.

CABRERA: Thank you, Don. We will check back in with you all in Ukraine.

But, right now, let's talk more about tomorrow's negotiations.

And here to discuss is former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst. He's a senior director at the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center now.

Ambassador, thanks for taking the time.

We're told lower-level Russian officials will be participating in these talks. Do you read into that? Do you think Russia is serious about reaching a deal?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Look, these negotiations that have been going on for weeks has never involved particularly senior Russian officials.

It's only be done by Duma members, which is unusual. So they have they have been negotiations which the seriousness of which we cannot tell. And, of course, now we have reports that the Russians have poisoned two Ukrainian negotiators, one of whom my friend Rustem Umerov, which, of course, is completely outrageous.

So it's unclear what the Russians are trying to do with these negotiations.

CABRERA: Right. We have not, by the way, at CNN verified the reporting regarding potential poisoning of negotiators, which has been reported by some outlets. And that was earlier in negotiations earlier in the month of March. We are working to confirm some information on that.

So, that aside, let's go back to the state of play and what we are now hearing from President Zelenskyy. saying he's ready to accept neutral non-nuclear status. What does a neutral Ukraine actually mean?

HERBST: Well, neutral means, it does not join NATO. It has an independent position vis-a-vis Russia and NATO.

But Zelenskyy is also saying he's -- it has to be an armed neutrality. He's not going to give up his army and his navy and his air force, in light of Kremlin aggression. And also he's asking for guaranties from world powers to make sure that Russia cannot with impunity go into Ukraine again, as it's done for the last eight years.

[13:10:07]

CABRERA: And any kind of neutrality would have to be put up for a referendum vote, as Zelenskyy has noted.

Do you think the Ukrainian people would vote in favor?

HERBST: Well, it depends on what type of neutrality.

If it's neutrality for an independent Ukraine, which keeps all of its territory, I think there's a chance they might. If it's neutrality without being armed, without guarantees from Western powers, without full Ukrainian territory, I think not.

CABRERA: What are your thoughts on this idea that Russia may be aiming to split Ukraine in two, like North and South Korea? Is that a realistic outcome? HERBST: Well, it's possible Putin may reduce his war aims. But

there's still no real evidence that he is willing to do that.

We have had a senior Russian general say that this is what Russia is trying to achieve, but not Putin himself. So just like the those negotiations we have been discussing, the statement by the general may reflect the Russian position, but it may not. Until Putin makes clear, it's not the Russian position.

CABRERA: And Ukraine's finance minister, we should note, has ruled out any territorial concessions.

What concessions would be palatable to Ukraine and NATO without seeming like rewarding Putin for invading? Because I think that's part of the struggle here is, it seems like for Ukraine to give up anything isn't fair, right? Putin came in and Russia came in without any kind of justification.

HERBST: It would be a great injustice.

If Ukraine were to decide that it's willing to make some compromises, then we should support it. But there's a danger that some weak-willed people in the West will try to impose Ukraine compromises on Ukraine. And that would be a serious mistake, both moral and geopolitical, cutting strongly against our interests.

What we should do is give Ukraine all the weapons it's asking for to stop the Russians on the battlefield, but encourage them also to negotiate. But I think Zelenskyy is happy to negotiate. It's Putin who does not seem to be interested in real negotiations.

CABRERA: Let's talk about President Biden's remark that Putin cannot remain in power. There has since been a big walk-back.

But I think he said what a lot of people are thinking. What are the practical effects of that comment? Does it really change the dynamics of diplomacy?

HERBST: I understand why Biden said it, but it was a mistake. That should not be our stated goal. And I don't even think it's our official policy goal.

Our official policy goal should be to make sure Putin's aggression in Ukraine fails., But unfortunately, that statement enables Putin to say to his own public, look, the problem is not my aggression, my barbarity in Ukraine. The problem is that the United States wants to change the government of Russia.

And he's changing the conversation. We should not have given Putin That opportunity.

CABRERA: It gave him some fuel...

HERBST: That's correct.

CABRERA: ... even if that didn't really matter in terms of Putin's actions moving forward. It gives him that propaganda.

Thank you, former Ambassador John Herbst. It's nice to have you with us, and I appreciate it.

HERBST: My pleasure.

CABRERA: A second month of war with no end in sight. Up next, we will break down Ukraine's new military gains and setbacks with General Wesley Clark.

Plus, Will Smith's shocking assault on Chris Rock overshadowing a historic night at the Oscars. Rock is still declining to pursue charges, at least for now. So is Smith off the hook?

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIKTOR YUSHCHENKO, FORMER PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): This war will end with one thing or another. It's either when the last Russian soldier will be killed in Ukraine or when the last Ukrainian defender will be killed in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That was former Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko speaking to CNN just this morning.

I want to get right to CNN's military analyst General Wesley Clark. He is the former NATO supreme allied commander.

General, a former Ukrainian president saying Putin won't stop essentially until every Ukrainian or every Russian soldier is killed. Your thoughts?

WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I think that's an accurate representation of the strong feelings here.

This is Eastern Europe. And they understand that Vladimir Putin is trying to erase Ukraine from the map and from history. That's what the business about using the Washington currency, using the Russian language is about. And Putin has said it. He doesn't consider Ukraine a separate country. These people are fighting for their families, their history, their culture, their religion, their church. Everything is up for grabs.

Yes, they're going to fight desperately. And, Ana, the negotiations, they're -- it's a charade right now. It's just -- it's a struggle by another means. The Russians don't really want to give in, but they're doing it to forestall Western opposition and to confound Western policymaking.

The Ukrainians have put up really strong conditions. And with those conditions, why wouldn't they just be accepted as member of NATO? Because they're asking for what every NATO member gets. And so they understand on both sides that this is going to be settled by the outcome of the fighting on the ground.

And that's why, as Ambassador Herbst was saying, give them more support.

CABRERA: So let's talk about the fighting on the ground right now.

The mayor of the port city of Mariupol said today, we are in the hands of the occupiers. If that city has indeed fallen to Russia, how significant is that? What does it mean for Russia's strategy?

CLARK: Well, it does free up Russian forces. It gives them a victory shout-out.

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It's also a tremendous example of what could happen to the rest of Ukraine that should motivate our European allies and the United States itself to do much more to help Ukraine prevent another tragedy like this. It does have some military significance. It does open up some supply routes. And it does free up forces.

And it worries the Ukrainians, and it worries us, because the humanitarian tragedy is just unimaginable that someone could get away with this in 21st century Europe. And what the Ukrainian say they need -- and we should be listening to them -- is, they need their support.

And we think -- we're not going to get a no-fly zone. Apparently, that's the policy decision. Everyone's explained why that can't happen, at this point at least. But there are aircraft out there that the Ukrainians getting themselves fly, and they need those aircraft very badly, they believe.

What's going to happen in this conflict is, there's another period of rainy weather coming for the next 30 days or so, the spring rains, especially in Northern Ukraine. Trackability is bad. After that, when the land dries out, if the Ukrainians don't have armored vehicles, mobile artillery, and airpower, will rapidly become encircled and defeated.

So think of it as a stall on the part of Vladimir Putin. He's pulling some forces back to reconstitute them. He's saying he's open to negotiations. But he's actually just preparing the next phase of this attack.

CABRERA: General...

CLARK: Surprised by how tough the Ukrainians have been, but he's going on after them.

CABRERA: General, I can hear your passion about this and your advocacy for the U.S. and NATO to do much more, your words.

And you talk about the air support that's needed. But as we have heard from the U.S. officials and others in the NATO alliance, there's the risk of providing even more military-type support and that being interpreted as the U.S. or NATO actually entering a new level of involvement and engagement and potential confrontation directly with Russia, and could escalate into a World War III.

Do you see that as a risk? And are you, just to be clear, advocating putting boots on the ground or U.S. fighter pilots in the air?

CLARK: I'm certainly advocating the release of aircraft that the Ukrainians fly.

But, Ana, here's something we have to understand. Mr. Putin has nuclear weapons, he has chemical weapons. He's going to use them when they're to his advantage. And he's going to lean on NATO or the United States, no matter what.

Right now, they're not -- it's not to his advantage to use these weapons. He hasn't closed in enough on the Ukrainians to require the use of chemical weapons, and the use of a nuclear weapon somewhere is so uncertain that it doesn't serve his purpose right now. He's got them. He's holding them. He still believes he's got a chance to win conventionally.

The best way out of this for all of us is for the Ukrainians to be given additional support, so that Putin understands he cannot win against Ukraine. Then the future opens up for the West, for the rules- based international order and so forth. That's the way through this.

It's a difficult path for people to walk. But that's the way we have got to get through it, in my view.

CABRERA: General Wesley Clark, I appreciate your perspective, as always, especially given your experience and insight. Thanks for joining us.

You just heard the general say it's time for the West to do more. A Ukrainian member of Parliament urging President Biden to do just that joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:28:37]

CABRERA: We have been bringing you stories of heartbreak and survival.

And, today, we are hearing from some residents of Mariupol who have returned to that devastated city for an up-close look at the destruction their, homes and buildings flattened, their former lives literally blown away by Russian missile strikes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I have lived here since my birth, my husband as well. We got married here and had babies. What now? What is left for us? I don't want to go anywhere from Mariupol, but there's nowhere to live here. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: One man explained how he survived the Russian onslaught, running from one location to another, trying to escape the shelling and the gunfire. His message to his family: "I'm alive."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You know, we got lucky. We have advised people what to do. Those inexperienced ran to the basement. I was running in my apartment. My windows there were broken with bullets and shell fragments.

I ran there and back, depending on where they were shooting. It was a big mess. But we survived, you see, survived. Thank God, alive. Also, for my daughter, your dad is alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The mayor of that city says there's no water, there's no electricity, there's no heat, there's no connection in terms of being able to communicate with the outside world.

And yet about 160,000 residents still are in Mariupol today, the mayor says.

Let's get back out to Don now in Western Ukraine -- Don.

LEMON: It's just heartbreaking, Ana. You're exactly right.

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