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Renato Mariotti is Interviewed about White House Logs; Justin Esiobu is Interviewed about Kharkiv. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired March 29, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:33:19]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news, the January 6th committee has now obtained White House phone logs that show a gap of more than seven hours in records of former President Trump's calls on the very day of the insurrection. This is according to new reporting from "The Washington Post" and CBS News. CNN has previously reported a significant gap in records of those calls and that White House records did not reflect calls made to or from the former president as the violence on the Capitol Hill unfolded that day, right in the midst of it.

Here with me to discuss, former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti.

Good to have you on, Renato.

I believe there are laws governing records for presidential phone calls. To have a seven-hour gap, does that indicate to you evidence that laws were broken here?

RENATO MARIOTTI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it may reveal more than that, Jim. If, for example, there were other phones being used surreptitiously that were not only not being recorded and not being provided, but actually were being used for the purpose of hiding activity or communications. We do know that some of the other folks around the former president were using what's called burner phones. They were using phones that you -- that you would toss away. So, that -- I mean it certainly raises a lot of questions. And I think what is going to be an important step for the committee is to make sure that they are able to talk to folks that were close to former President Trump and see if there are witnesses that recall seeing him on the phone during that period of time.

SCIUTTO: Wouldn't using a burner phone signify intent? You and I have talked about -- at every level of this investigation, right, the importance of intent, whether that be intent to interfere in the election or intent to avoid records of communications.

[09:35:11]

From a legal perspective, would that indicate intent? MARIOTTI: It certainly shows an intent to hide your activity. It is

the sort of activity that is heavily associated with not only criminal activity, but knowing criminal activity. I used to get wiretaps on phones when I was a federal prosecutor, and the folks that use burner phones were usually drug dealers, people who were involved in the drug cartel in some way knew that they had to toss their phone every 30 days to try to stymie the efforts of people like myself and law enforcement.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MARIOTTI: So, I think it would certainly be astounding if something like that happened. And I think the explanation for the Trump camp has to be that he was off the phone for seven hours straight. And really what investigators are going to need to establish is, first of all, what -- you know, was he the sort of person who could stay off the phone for seven hours? And on that day can they establish, through other evidence, that he was on the phone? And, if so, where are the records?

SCIUTTO: Right.

MARIOTTI: It reminds me of the Nixon gap, but a much larger one.

SCIUTTO: Just quickly before we go, where is the DOJ on this? Because this is, to this point, it's the January 6th committee. That's a political process. They will come up with a report that may be potentially damning. But in terms of criminal prosecutions or referrals, where does the DOJ stand on this?

MARIOTTI: We don't know for sure. The fact that the committee was jumping up and down yesterday, asking Merrick Garland and the Justice Department to act suggests that they're not working hand in glove with the DOJ, which had been one possibility. And so either the Justice Department is waiting to see this -- waiting for this investigation to wrap up, which would be unusual in my view and, frankly, concerning because that would mean that potentially evidence could get stale or leads could get lost while they're waiting for this committee to wrap up, or potentially the Justice Department really does not believe that based on what they've seen that there is a sufficient predicate for an investigation, which I think would be surprising and I do think the public has a right to know whether or not an investigation is being undertaken in this (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: No question. And throughout all this, the question, you know, what rises to the level of punishable behavior here? Hasn't yet.

Renato Mariotti, thanks very much.

MARIOTTI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, the mayor of one of the hardest hit cities in Ukraine says that Russia is committing genocide, targeting civilians there explicitly. We're going to have more from CNN's interview, next.

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SCIUTTO: Russia now says it will, quote, drastically reduce military activity in parts of Ukraine, including the city of Chernihiv in the north, which has seen some of the most intense shelling since the war began. The mayor took this video recently as he drove through the town. Look at that there. You can see smoke rising, houses, those are houses on fire, not military targets.

My colleague John Berman joins me again from Lviv in western Ukraine.

John, earlier today you spoke with the mayor there. And he gave you such a guttural description, right, of what cities like Chernihiv and civilians there have faced. Tell us what he said.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He says nowhere here is safe. He says the Russians are hitting us everywhere.

And the mayor, and this is Vladyslav Atroshenko. I spoke to him before this information, this new reporting that Russia says it's going to withdraw some of its troops from the Chernihiv region. So he very much felt under attack there. He said, the Russians are hitting everywhere, including, he said, a cinema, a crumbled cinema that he was standing there. And he talked about how civilians are the targets and civilians are suffering.

Listen.

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MAYOR VLADYSLAV ATROSHENKO, CHERNIHIV, UKRAINE (through translator): Where I'm standing now, this is the site where a cruise missile has struck. The direction of this missile was from Belarus. It came from Belarus. And we know this because the location is such that it couldn't have come anywhere else -- from anywhere else.

They're striking on civilian neighborhoods. We have enough proof, so we can say that this is fascism and genocide. We have -- in the last three weeks we lost 350 people. The vast majority of these are civilians.

We will definitely survive, and we shall not surrender. We will push the occupiers away.

BERMAN: Mr. Mayor, what was that?

ATROSHENKO: You have just heard an explosion. That means something has flown in to attack us. You can give this recording to your military and they will tell you that this is not our explosion, this isn't us striking something, this is something that has come from the enemy side.

BERMAN: Mr. Mayor, are you safe right now?

ATROSHENKO: Absolutely nowhere is safe in the city now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: And, Jim, you could see the mayor, he didn't even flinch when that explosion happened, which I'm bringing it up not to say that he's somehow overly strong or anything, but just that that's life in Chernihiv or has become life in Chernihiv over the last five weeks, explosions just happen, and you sadly get used to it.

[09:45:09]

SCIUTTO: Yes. You know, it's interesting, I remember before the invasion, I was told by a U.S. official to watch for activity in Chernihiv because the Russians looked at that as key towards moving toward Kyiv. Of course they were blocked in that objective.

I wonder, the question has risen multiple times as to whether Belarus will kind of back up the Russians here, right, and send in forces from the north to help with the stalled assault on a place like the capital Kyiv. I mean is that still in play?

BERMAN: That's a great question at this point. I don't know if the situation is changed because of the events of today, Jim, if the Russians are starting to pull back from Kyiv and Chernihiv. Maybe it makes it less likely that Belarus will send their troops in.

I will tell you, the Ukrainians I've spoken to, when I ask them about, are you worried about the Belarusians coming in here, they're like, they're going to come in? If they're going to come in here, they're going to get killed. They don't have a very high regard for the Belarusian troops.

I did speak to Belarusian opposition leader Svyatlana Tsikhanouskaya, who is, obviously -- she's in exile. Her husband is in prison in Belarus right now. And she said that the Belarusians, by and large, including the military, are actually on the side of the Ukrainians.

Listen.

SVYATLANA TSIKHANOUSKAYA, BELARUSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Our army doesn't want to participate in this war, because our people don't understand why they have to fight for one person, why they have to fight against our brother Ukrainians, and they are really demoralized.

Belarusians want Ukraine to be in (ph) because we understand that without free Ukraine there will be no free Belarus and vice versa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It will be interesting to see, Jim, whether there are ripple effects in Belarus from what happens here in Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: No question. And, by the way, it shows you how these events are connected. Russia's pressuring out of the opposition in Belarus, including the opposition leader there, months before, connected perhaps, to its later assault on Ukraine, hoping that it could kind of squeeze the country. Of course that plan, at least so far, has failed.

John Berman, in Lviv, thanks so much.

Well, in the midst of all this, Russia is intensifying its aerial assault on the northeastern city of Kharkiv as it faces severe resistance on the ground. Coming up, I'll speak with someone who was forced to flee that city amid the chaos. How it stands now.

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[09:51:58]

SCIUTTO: U.S. officials say that Russian ground forces have stalled in many areas across Ukraine and have indeed, according to our new reporting this morning, made a strategic decision to pull back from targets in the north.

We are seeing, however, devastating effects of Russia's continuing aerial assault in Kharkiv near Ukraine's eastern border with Russia. Entire neighborhoods, civilian neighborhoods, laid to waste. Volunteers are delivering food and medicine to people stuck in some residential areas, but every day the situation grows more precarious, more dangerous.

Joining me now is Justin Esiobu. I've spoken to him a number of times since the start of this invasion, including when he was hiding from the bombing in Kharkiv. He's a freelance staff correspondent for "JURIST," as well as a law student. He had to flee Kharkiv in the midst of the bombing. He's now in Lviv.

Justin, good to have you on.

We're seeing new video of Kharkiv that just shows how extensive the devastation is there.

What do you think as you see that -- as you see destruction in a place you live and where you have people, loved ones?

JUSTIN ESIOBU, JURIST NEWS STAFF CORRESPONDENT IN UKRAINE: Yes, first of all, thank you for having me. This is a great pleasure speaking in a relative safety related -- relatenly to Kharkiv itself.

So, I spoke to my friends who still stayed in Kharkiv, people from my university. It's still extremely unsafe to be in here. And as Russian said -- Russian officials said that they pull out from Kyiv and Chernihiv areas, Kharkiv, Donetsk and Luhansk becoming -- are becoming more and more dangerous even more. So, there's a relative safety in here right now in there but it's still not resolution.

SCIUTTO: Yes. No. No. Listen, we've been showing pictures here to our viewers that show apartment buildings, right, civilian targets, civilian areas and buildings, the targets, apparently, of Russian strikes.

Given your time there and what you've seen, do you have any doubt in your mind that Russia deliberately, intentionally targeted civilians with these attacks? ESIOBU: Well, as I said during my first day -- during the first day --

days of war, Russians became desperately bombing the civilian areas, just domestic and hospitals and so forth. And still -- and they're still continuing to do so.

But as they got empty under personal -- under armed forces, it's becoming more and more difficult for them to just continue pushing into those areas that they said they are departing from right now.

SCIUTTO: There is discussion now of peace. You have Russians and Ukrainians meeting in Istanbul. You have U.S. military officials saying Russian forces are pulling back from some areas.

[09:55:02]

I wonder, given what you've gone through there and the attacks you saw on civilians, would you trust a Russian peace agreement or a Russian pledge to stop the fighting? Would you believe it?

ESIOBU: Well, again, I personally think that Russians are not blunt in their -- in their messages. And so the main, strategic idea that they wanted to share in here, saying that they're pulling out is that they do not have resources. That's what all of this is about. So, they're pulling out because of the lack of resources, not because they decided to do so.

And so as Kharkiv, our mayor, (INAUDIBLE), mentioned today, Kharkiv lives and continues working. And so regardless of what Russians say, we are still maintaining our position and, yes, that's basically it.

SCIUTTO: Well, Justin, I'm glad you're safe. When I first spoke to you, you were huddling in a basement in the midst of Russian bombardment. I'm glad you're safe and I hope your friends who are still behind stay safe as well. Thanks for coming on this morning.

ESIOBU: Yes, thank you very much. Stay safe.

SCIUTTO: The news this morning, a major strategy shift by Russia in Ukraine, U.S. officials tell me, pulling back troops in the north and instead now focusing efforts on the south and the east. What that means for Ukraine. Is it lasting? That's coming up.

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