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Pentagon: Not Ready to Call Russian Failures a Military Defeat; Pentagon: The Threat to Kyiv is Not Over; Pentagon: We're Not Reay to Call This a Retreat for a Withdrawal; Interview with Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Former Prime Minister, Ukraine, Russian Forces Repositioning or Leaving Kyiv Area; White House Logs from January 6 Show 7-Hour Gap in Trump Calls; January 6 Committee Recommends Criminal Contempt Charges for Ex-Trump Aides. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired March 29, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: And they're saying and we're seeing small numbers move away. So, will see where this goes. But step back. They also, you know, failed to take -- really take and hold any major population centers. They haven't taken Kharkiv. They haven't taken Chernihiv. They haven't taken Mariupol. And while we assess they took Kherson, that's back in play right now.

So, if you count maybe Berdyansk on the Askov coast, you know, even that is contested. I mean, you so the Ukrainians basically sank one of their amphibious ships in the port there at Berdyansk. So, not only did they not manage to take Kyiv. They've not manage to take any population centers. And the Ukrainians have been fighting back hard. So, it's hard to see how they are succeeding in any one place except, except at the death and destruction they are causing to these population centers and the civilian population. And that's something we can lose sight of.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, on that note, that seems like a good place to break and try to dig a little bit deeper on what we have been hearing from the Pentagon Press Secretary, John Kirby.

So, joining us to help do that is CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann, CNN Fred Pleitgen, he is in Kyiv for us. CNN International diplomatic editor Nic Robertson, and CNN military analyst Maj. Gen. Spider Marks. Spider, I want to start with you because let's just talk about what John Kirby was saying there. He basically said that the Pentagon assess that Russian troops have repositioned around Kyiv. They're not withdrawing in his assessment. Can you help us visualize what he was describing there?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, absolutely, Alisyn. Let's look at it this way. First of all, the Ukrainians are not out of the fight. And the way this is been characterized -- no fault of anybody -- is that it sounds very much like an administrative decision on the part of the Russians. You know, we're going move back -- kind of like a video game. This is but anything but a video game. When you get down into Kyiv, what has been happening is that this area right here as a result of Ukrainian forces, they reclaimed that. They've also cleared out this area.

But bear in mind what has happened over the course of the last couple of months -- couple of weeks, these lines have essentially remained intact as has all of this.

The Russians now feel this particular area that they are at risk. Not because they decided they're withdraw but you because the Ukrainians are taking the fight to Russians. This is a retreat under pressure. The Ukrainians still reserve the right and have the capacity to continue to potentially isolate elements like that, apply additional pressure. I would think that the Ukrainians now are really picking up the pace. And I would hope that that's what we'd see, at least in the Kyiv area.

OK, so let's go to Fred. Because, Fred, you are in Kyiv. And so, do you get any sense on the ground there of any repositioning or retreat. Does it feel different today?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know what, it does feel different today, absolutely, Alisyn. But it's still unclear here on the ground what exactly all of it means. And you know, if anything I think that we're hearing more explosions actually here in the capital Kyiv. In fact, just as I go on the air right now, I'm hearing a lot of them right behind me.

And you know, the Ukrainians, their general command, they're saying they also that some Russian forces may be moving, maybe moving back towards Belarus. They also believe that this could be some sort of repositioning as well. However, I actually went very close to the front line earlier today when we heard this announcement that was made by the Russians. And down there, there is a lot of shelling still going on. Both sides absolutely shooting at one another with some really heavy weapons, heavy artillery.

And we were speaking to some Ukrainian territorial defense forces there and they were telling us in past couple of days there has been a considerable uptick in the firing coming from the Russians. They say they believe that either the Russians might be sort of maybe drawing their forces and want to leave scorched earth or they might be covering themselves maybe moving away from some of their positions. Absolutely unclear however, whether or not that's the case.

But there has been a great deal of movement there over the past, I would say sort of three days in terms of the intensity of the firing that's been going on. When you speak to people down there -- I spoke to a parliamentarian and I spoke to some folks who live down there as well. None of them believe that the Russians are really going to have a withdrawal. They also believe this is some sort of repositioning possibly down to southeast in the country. However, there certainly is definitely something going on there.

[04:35:00]

I hear it now and the folks on the front line they also say that there is a lot more shelling going on and they believe it could have something to do if the Russians are repositioning to somewhere else, maybe even withdrawing some of their forces that it could have something to do that that -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Fred, it is so helpful to have you there to explain all of that of what's actually happen on the front lines. And so, Nic, that leads me to you. What we heard from John Kirby was basically I think cautioning all of us not to fall for what he was characterizing as Russian spin in terms of the Russian foreign defense minister trying to claim, well, we liberated the Donbas and that was really our goal. I mean, you heard Kirby saying there, no it wasn't. We saw them charging towards Kyiv for the past weeks.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, Secretary of State Antony Blinken calling it de-flight and deceive as well. So, there is something for the Kremlin that it has to do here. It has to protect the image of President Putin. And as President Putin, who initiated all of this to say that there was -- for the Kremlin to say that there was a failure around Kyiv. They're really trying to refocus and say, no, we were going after Donbas after all.

But I think to get a real sense of where Russia thinks the fight is going and how it thinks it's going to fight. And to get an idea of where their mind set is on the rest of the conflict that's going on in Ukraine. President Macron of France today had a phone conversation with President Putin. And we know from the French that they talked about that situation in Mariupol, which John Kirby said has not yet fallen to the Russians -- according to President Macron. There's about 170,000 civilians there desperate to get out.

According to the Ukrainians there's a ring of Ukrainian defenders trying to defend that civilian population in a city that's so badly damaged by Russian shell fire and missiles. But what did the Kremlin say today about that? Their readout of this phone conversation with President Macron. They said the way to get humanitarian relief for the people, the civilians inside Mariupol was for the Ukrainian forces to essentially surrender, put down their weapon.

I think that told do you everything that we need to know about what the Kremlin intends to do. Its fight is carrying on. It's going to try to secure the southern corridor. Try to secure Donbas, the southern corridor that links Russia proper to Crimea. And this was sort of their lesser goal if you will. It's now become their greater goal. And this is what they'll try to spend at home as a victory. This is where Russia is going. And this is what John Kirby talks about when he talks about a repositioning of forces. That's where the fight's going to go.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and what the message to the domestic Russian audience versus, you know, what we can see with our own eyes. And so, Oren, when John Kirby says that the Russian forces are in a, quote, defensive posture in some places, what does that mean?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, we essentially saw the lead up to today's statement. The statement from the Russians that they will back away from Kyiv a few days ago. When the Pentagon said they are witnesses, that Russian forces around Kyiv instead of trying to go on attack, instead of trying to gain ground and continue taking the city -- which was one of the key objectives when this all started in late February -- instead they're digging in perhaps for the long haul. It's easier to defend there and that's the position they are taking.

We heard from Fred that increased fire -- he's exactly right. That it could be fire covering a retreat or simply continuation of the scorched earth campaign that we see in the Russians carry out in other parts. And it wasn't just defensive units or defensive positions around Kyiv, that was coupled with increased fire on Donbas, which was the pretext for the narrative that Vladimir Putin try to sell to the Russians when this quote, unquote, special operation began.

The Pentagon saw and assessed that that's where the fight would shift to and now the Pentagon is waiting to see as it watches what it calls small numbers of forces moving away from Kyiv. Now it's waiting to see if those are repositioned to try to back up and reenforce the fight around Donbas.

Ukraine has a significant portion of its fighting force in the east trying to push back against the Russians and that the Pentagon assesses is where the Russians will now try to focus the fight. They'd made statements to that effect and that's what the Pentagon is looking for.

I will also point out, Alisyn, that it's interesting where Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby started his briefing. Generally, he starts with tactical over view. Almost going around the clock in Kyiv. Here he started immediately by dispelling the Russian narrative that they were only going after Donbas. He pointed out that this was always the goal of Russia and of President Vladimir Putin, to take large portions of the country. That has fallen apart. He wouldn't go as far to say it was a failed military campaign but he certainly seemed to be hinting around the edges there as Russia shifts its strategy here, perhaps away from Kyiv or at least not focusing as much on Kyiv and looking at southeast Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and one more indication of what you're talking about, Oren, is when we heard John Kirby say they haven't -- Russians haven't taken any major population centers.

[04:40:00]

So, Spider, would you tell us, if you could, I mean, there at the beginning of this war, it seemed as though they were going to be able to take some major population centers. But now something does seem to have shifted or the Ukrainians were much more formidable than the Russians expected.

MARKS: Well, Alisyn, is a combination of all of that. First of all, the Russians had no clue. They were absolutely clueless in terms of the capability of the Ukrainian military and the will to resist of the Ukrainians. They also had an absolutely inappropriate view of their own readiness.

So, what has taken place within Ukraine is a single campaign. And there's no hope time horizon to a campaign. The combatants determine how long that's going to take place. So, what you're hearing right now is a throwback to the John Lovitz "Saturday Night Live" pathological liars club, right. My girlfriend is Heather Locklear.

The deal was all along that was an objective. But they came hot and heavy toward Kyiv and along these different axes. All of those, frankly, have been individually isolated. There's no coordination among any of these. So, the repositioning of forces that might take place would have to take some circuitous route like that which is going to give a lot of intelligence indicators. We would have a sense -- the world would have a sense of what's taking place if there is a shift. But this campaign is far from over nor is anyone in a positioning to say we got a victory.

CAMEROTA: Spider, far be it from me to ever correct you, but it was Morgan Fairchild. That was --

MARKS: Sorry.

CAMEROTA: -- for the fantastical liar. OK, just a little levity --

MARKS: My apologies.

CAMEROTA: -- at the end of all of this. Oren Liebermann, Fred Pleitgen, Nic Robertson and retired Maj. Gen. Spider Marks, thank you all.

OK, we just heard from the Pentagon. The U.S. military assessment is that Russia appears to be repositioning its forces in Kyiv or in and around Kyiv. And the spokesperson John Kirby said nobody should be fooled into thinking that Putin plans to withdraw entirely despite some indications that some of the troops are moving back, pushing back or repositioning.

So, let's bring in Arseniy Yatsenyuk. He's a former Ukrainian Prime Minister. OK, thank you very much for your patience, Mr. Prime Minister. So, your reaction to everything that you've just heard. So, the Kremlin now saying basically mission accomplished. All we wanted was to liberate the Donbas. And as you heard from all of our correspondents on the air, something does seem to have shifted around Kyiv today.

ARSENIY YATSENYUK, FORMER UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER: You know, nothing has changed. The ultimate goal of Russia is to take over Ukraine. And Putin wants to take as much as he can. The ultimate goal of Russia is to undermine NATO. The ultimate goal of Russia is to erode the European Union. The ultimate goal of Russia fight against the free world and against the United States. So, nothing has changed.

You know what, Russians are masters of lies, deception and window dressing. Do you remember a few months ago when Russia said that they would withdraw troops from Ukrainian border. What's again happened? They waged a war against Ukraine. So, it's a hoax. And I do believe that they pursue a number of goals.

The first one is Russia wants to show to some, maybe Western countries -- or not just Western but to the international community -- that they are ready to negotiate in so called good faith. And John Kirby said that, look, we expect that Russia is to negotiate in good faith to stop the war. I don't trust this. Because Russia did everything to wage the war.

The second issue is that they want to buy the time. Definitely, no doubt that they want to repositioned their troops. And when they say that they decided to withdraw crews from Kyiv, it's not a lie. Ukrainian armed forces started counter offensive. So, Russians are out of manpower, out of ammunition and they do understand that they failed to encircle and to take over Kyiv.

CAMEROTA: Well, I appreciate this reality check that you're giving all of us. But do you think that basically -- however they are spinning it because they haven't had success in Kyiv that they are reassessing and that maybe now they are more open to negotiating because they haven't been able to take Kyiv.

[04:45:00]

YATSENYUK: Here is the thing, Alisyn, they will be open for real negotiations. You know, when, because we need to pave the way to this peace. And there are three pillars. The first pillar is we need to fast-track, deliver a shipment of lethal weapons to Ukraine. The second pillar is, I ask our best in friends, to ramp up sanctions. The third pillar is a strong Ukrainian military and unity within the European Union and NATO. The stronger we are the better chances we have to carve the deal with Russians, but not as of now.

CAMEROTA: Let me ask you this, Mr. Yatsenyuk, because lately your president, President Zelenskyy has been talking about being open to a neutral Ukraine. So, nonnuclear and neutrality deal of some kind. I know that you have been opposed and you've said that there can be no neutrality for Ukraine. So, just square that for me.

YATSENYUK: Look, I do support the efforts of Ukrainian government to deliver peace and stability and territorial integrity and sovereignty to Ukraine. So, I strongly believe that we will never give any inch of Ukrainian soil to the Russian Federation. In terms of so-called neutrality, once again I want to remind your viewers that in 2013, Ukrainian legislation enshrined so-called neutrality statutes. So, what happened in the end? Putin annexed illegally Crimea. He sent his proxies and his military to Donetsk and Luhansk and he actually committed a land grab, an international crime against Ukraine. So, we already paid the price for neutrality. So, I don't believe in any kind of neutrality in this current world. It's black or white. Whether we are under the shelter of NATO or Russia will try always to take over Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: Former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, thank you. Stay safe. We'll talk again.

YATSENYUK: Thank you. Take care.

CAMEROTA: Back here, the January 6 committee is reportedly missing more than 7 hours of White House phone records from the day of the Capitol insurrection. So, lawmakers want to know who President Trump was talking to and when and about what. Their challenge to figure that out now. That's next.

[04:50:00]

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CAMEROTA: Seven hours and 37 minutes, that's how much time is apparently missing from former President Trump's phone logs on the day of the Capitol insurrection. This comes from documents given to the January 6 House Select Committee and obtained by the "Washington Post." CNN was first to report this big gap in the records last month. Let's bring in CNN Senior legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid and CNN chief legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey Toobin. Paula, these phone logs are fascinating. Because about every -- I have them right here in my hand -- about eight minutes a phone call is coming into the president or going out and then it suddenly stops at about 11:17. And then there's an almost eight-hour gap.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. A massive gap at one of the most critical moments in U.S. history. And knowing, Alisyn, what we do, of course, about the former president's phone habits and what was going on at that moment, it seems improbable that no calls were coming to or from the former president. And so, the House Select Committee is looking into this gap in the White House records.

We're also looking at whether the former president was using back channels to try to conceal who he was talking to. And today, one committee member said look, it's possible that he was using the phones of his associate. That he was using a different office phone. Even suggesting it's possible he was using a burner phone. But committee member Jamie Raskin also said there's a possibility that somebody is suppressing the release of this information. This is a point, Alisyn, the committee just does not know. But this is a line of inquiry that they are pursuing.

CAMEROTA: Jeffrey, I am really fascinated by these phone records. Because it just every eight minutes, Mr. Steve Bannon calls at 8:38 that morning, Mr. Rudy Giuliani calls at 8:46 that morning. Mr. Mark Meadows calls. Congressman Jim Jordan calls, and then it just stops. Now, one thing that you should know, is that Alyssa Farah Griffin, who was the former communications strategist for the White House told us in an interview that she often tried to communicate him on Signal, which is an encrypted app. So, will the investigators ever be able to find out what happened?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: And I listened to Paula's report and I thought she said with elegant understatement improbable that he wasn't on the phone these periods. Yes, I'd say it is definitely improbable to the point of ridiculousness, the idea that this phone addict -- which is what everyone says Trump is -- wasn't using the phone.

But I think this underlines one of the big problems with the congressional investigation so far. Is that they don't have a John Dean who was the White House insider under Watergate who basically spilled the beans. They have a lot of very suggestive, very incriminating information that needs to be elaborated. That needs to be explained. And one of the things you learn as a prosecutor, is there's only so much you can do with documents itself. You need someone on the inside to explain what the documents mean and what was really going on. And at least as far as I'm aware, they don't have that insider yet and that's a big problem.

CAMEROTA: Another thing, Jeffrey, it sounds like some members of the House Select Committee -- the January 6th committee investigating this are getting frustrated with the Department of Justice because they can only do so much. Let me play what we heard from yesterday from some of the committee members.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): This committee is doing its job. The Department of Justice needs to do theirs.

REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): And the Department of Justice must act swiftly. I will echo what my colleagues have already said but more bluntly. Attorney General Garland, do your job so that we can do ours

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Is it time for Department of Justice Department to do something about any of this?

TOOBIN: You know, I think the committee should do it themselves. You know, they can hold hearings. They can release documents. Like let's go. You know, we've got all these bits and pieces are coming out.

CAMEROTA: But they can't charge anybody.

[04:55:00]

TOOBIN: Well of course, that's not their job. And he knew that going in that they couldn't charge anybody. But let's see the committee tell a story. I mean, that's the thing that for anybody who's not a real junkie like we are following each development, you need someone or some hearing or some paper or something to lay it all out together in a way that ordinary people can understand and have the reaction that Congress wants them to have. But you know, complaining about Department of Justice at this point, sure, you know, that's a separate issue. But the committee has a job to do and they should do it.

CAMEROTA: Paula, what about that? What is the next step?

REID: Well, the committee would like it to be for the Justice Department to move on the criminal contempt referral against former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. Last night again they voted to refer two more top Trump advisers, Peter Navarro, Dan Scavino for contempt and they are clearly frustrated. But it's not just them. You also have this judge in California, issuing a 44-page opinion that read like a legal memo to the Attorney General saying, yes, more likely than not that Trump committed a crime.

So, the Attorney General -- look, he's facing a lot of pressure from different areas. I agree with Jeffrey that, yes, the committee can do a lot here, but at the end of the day they can't do what it is they want to have happen. Which is to seek consequences for people that have not cooperated in their investigation. Only the Justice Department can do that. And in terms of these call logs, it's one thing to see a call came in or went out from someone, but if you don't know who the president was talking to -- like with Steve Bannon, Mark Meadows, Dan Scavino. If none of them are ever going to cooperate with the committee, their unlikely to get any answers about what the president was saying at that time.

TOOBIN: That is so true. And also, I mean think about the Steve Bannon situation, where they did find him in contempt, but that still is on a slow boat to nowhere, that case. All of these contempt proceedings are likely to last longer than the Democratic majority in the House.

CAMEROTA: Jeffrey, Paula. Thank you both.

And "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts after a quick break.

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