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Reports of Ukraine Striking Fuel Depot in Belgorod, Russia; Red Cross Sending Staff to Help Evacuate People From Mariupol; Ukraine Says, At Least 153 Children Killed Since Russian Invasion Started. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 01, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: Good Friday morning. Top of the hour here, I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Today, a new round of talks between Ukrainian and Russian negotiators as Moscow is blaming Ukraine for an airstrike on a fuel depot inside Russian territory, in the city of Belgorod. New video suggests that Ukraine's military may be behind that assault, that's the burning building there.

The Kremlin, even as it continues to bomb Ukraine itself, says that this attack could negatively impact those negotiations. Those talks have not yet yielded any agreements yet.

HILL: Right now, the Red Cross is sending humanitarian aid to Mariupol and also trying to help evacuation people from that city, this after Russian forces actually blocked several evacuation buses and confiscated some of that much needed aid.

The humanitarian crisis is dire across the country. According to Ukrainian officials, at least 153 children have been killed in the fighting, more than 245 others injured.

SCIUTTO: CNN's John Berman live in Lviv, Ukraine, in the west. So, John, Russia at least is saying that this was Ukrainian attack, which would be remarkable in its own right because then Russia would be acknowledging Ukrainian forces were be able to attack inside their territory. Ukraine, though, it's interesting, they're a kind of walking a line here.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. I'll read you that statement in just a second, but let's just review what we know. What we know is there is this Russian fuel depot. We've seen the picture son fire inside Russian territory. This is just over the border from Ukraine in Belgorod. It's the northeastern part of Ukraine over the border there, not that far from Kharkiv. And what the Russians say, the local Belgorod officials say Ukrainian helicopters struck this fuel depot and set it ablaze.

Now, a couple of things we should stipulate here. Russians have been attacking all over Ukraine. Ukrainian civilians are being killed by the Russians. The Russians are also attacking Ukrainian fuel depots all over this country, including one right here in Lviv. So, this could be an example of turnabout. The Russians are blaming the Ukrainians.

We are told that Vladimir Putin has been informed. Dmitry Peskov, a spokesperson at the Kremlin, says this could affect negotiations. So, the question is, what are the Ukrainians saying and the answer is, not much, a pretty cagey response from them. Let me read it to you.

They say, this is from the ministry of defense. I would like to emphasize that Ukraine is performing a defensive operation against Russian aggression on the territory of Ukraine. That doesn't mean Ukraine has to be responsible for every miscalculation or event or catastrophe that occurred on the territory of the Russian Federation. This is not the first time we are witnessing such accusations. Therefore, I will neither confirm nor deny this information, so, nothing from the Ukrainian side.

If they are responsible, maybe they don't want to claim credit for it and exacerbate the diplomatic situation. Who knows? But the bottom line here is if this was a Ukrainian strike, it shows they have the capability to do it on Russian territory. It means Russia doesn't control the skies on the Ukrainian side of the border from whence the helicopters came or even on the Russian side of the border at the side of that strike. It has military implications.

And we'll have to see what diplomatic implications it has, Jim, it would be interesting if -- Jim and Erica, I should say, it would be interesting for the Russians who are bombing consistently, who have invaded Ukraine and have no problem sitting at the table for them to say, oh, this one time Ukraine came into our territory, that's going to blow up negotiations. It's a little bit of an interesting place to be, diplomatically.

HILL: Yes, it certainly is, you know, given the numerous questions that have existed since the start of any talks about just how serious Russia is when it comes to those talks.

Berman, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, right now, Russian forces are focusing on the eastern part of Ukraine, specifically the Donbas region.

SCIUTTO: They have been heavily focused on gaining control of the Southern Ukrainian city of Mariupol, a connecting point from the Donbas in the east to the critical port city of Odessa. It gives you a sense of their plans for territorial expansion perhaps in the south and the east.

CNN Senior Correspondent Ed Lavandera, he is in Odessa today. Ukrainians watching this very closely. Odessa is Ukraine's the main port city, right? Russia clearly has designs on it. What is the concern of the people where you are?

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ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the anxiousness here in Odessa is a lot of people are really paying attention to what's happening in the north, as we've reported over the last few days, and the question as to whether or not Russia is going to scale back its military efforts there in the north and what is going to happen when they come back, retrench, resupply and move those soldiers and troops and forces to other areas. Will it then kind of reinforce what is happening here in the south of the country, pushing in from Mariupol?

So far, the Ukrainian forces have been able to hold back Russian forces about halfway between here and Mariupol, but the concern is that they get forces reinvigorated there, that that push could come back this way. So, many people here anxiously watching.

So, you have a situation where normal life is kind of going on here, Jim and Erica, but at the same time, people watching very closely what's happening in the north and what's going to happen just to the east of here. And also, we need to remind people that the Russian Navy has naval warships just off the coast of this port city. So, that is obviously a great deal of concern for the residents here as they watch all of this closely and trying to figure out how all of this is going to unfold and the timing of it all. Are we talking days or weeks from something that might start pushing toward this area and change the climate here?

SCIUTTO: No question. We've been showing pictures of tank traps in the middle of the city streets. I mean, that's what people have to live with, right, with fears of that invasion. Ed Lavandera, good to have you there. Be safe.

New this morning, the U.S. and its allies are weighing if they can guarantee somehow security for Ukraine in the event that it does forgo, at least for now, pursuing NATO membership and what exactly such a security guarantee would look like.

HILL: Yes. Those discussions, as we understand it, still in the early phases. It's unlikely that the west would offer Ukraine the kinds of legally binding protections that it's hoping for.

Joining us now, Susan Glasser, Staff Writer for The New Yorker and CNN Global Affairs Analyst.

So, I mean, Susan, do you have a sense then, right, if it's not necessarily what Ukraine would like to see, what would those guarantees look like? Is there a model for it anywhere?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, unfortunately, you look at guarantees, say, leading up to World War II and you can see that even when they are made as formal treaties, they either trigger a broader war or not worth the paper they're written on. And the real question, right, is both what Ukraine would accept but also what, if anything, would provide a deterrent to Vladimir Putin at this point.

The real fear that I hear expressed from those who are closely following this process is Vladimir Putin clearly invaded Ukraine thinking he could just hive off, at a minimum, another piece of the country, as he did in 2014. And if this war ends, you know, with the kind of minimally acceptable stalemate to Russia, in which perhaps make some territorial gains, what's to stop Vladimir Putin from coming for more?

So, that, in the context of talking about territorial gains and also what it would mean to protect Ukraine in the future, it has to stop Vladimir Putin.

SCIUTTO: An essential problem here, right, you don't even have to go back to World War II, is that, I mean, the Minsk Accords, that was supposed to be some sort of peace agreement for Ukraine, Russia literally bulldozed over that with its invasion, or going back to 1994 when the agreement that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, that included a security guarantee from Russia, which, of course, it violated.

So, what agreement can you make with Russia and trust their word on?

GLASSER: Well, I think this is why, in a way, you heard that statement from President Biden about Vladimir Putin, because he's a rogue president and a rogue leader of a rogue superpower at this point, Jim. You know, if you can't trust a country's word in the international system, you can't make treaties and deals with it. They have obstructed and essentially brought the U.N. Security Council crashing down because there is no meaningful international order if you have a member of the Security Council that invades another country and says that they're de-Nazifying it. And so what can you do with Vladimir Putin is, I think, a huge obstacle to negotiate and end this war. I don't see it happening right now.

HILL: Susan, as we look at the developments today that we're seeing, so there are these claims from Russia that it was Ukraine that attacked this fuel depot just over the border there, we're also just learning that Germany has approved to deliver a number of combat tanks to Ukraine. As we're seeing this start to play out, is there a change at this point? Is that a signal of a specific change in this fight?

GLASSER: Look, there has -- no doubt, Ukraine has outperformed militarily its expectations and the like, but one fuel depot inside Russia versus an entire country invaded.

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Think about the percentage of Ukraine's population whose lives have been destroyed and upended by this horrific invasion by Vladimir Putin. Again, you're talking about literally millions and millions of people. More than 10 million Ukrainians displaced, 4 million of them have had to leave the country entirely, versus one fuel depot inside of Russia at this point.

But I do think it sends a message and, obviously, that's a message that's not going to be well received in the Kremlin.

SCIUTTO: Also this delivery of tanks, interesting, right, because then you wonder what is the difference between sending tanks and sending fighter jets, right, which had become such an issue from Poland.

I do want to ask about Russia's relationship with other powers because the Russian foreign minister, Lavrov, he's going to meet with the Indian prime minister, Modi, today. Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland, she told NPR this morning that the U.S. believes that India is rethinking its relationship with Russia, maybe not publicly, maybe quietly. But do you see positive signs there in terms of India refusing, in effect, what seems to be Russia's request here, which is do business with us, buy our oil, et cetera?

GLASSER: Well, that might be aspirational at this point. If they were to change course, that would be a significant shift. Because the truth is we tend to emphasize western unity and unity of the NATO allies, which has been very strong, perhaps even surprisingly so to Vladimir Putin. But at the same time, what you've heard from the rest of the developing world is the much more mixed picture and India is a case study.

They have been historically reliant on weapons from Russia, seem to be reluctant to jettison that. They've also been lobbied at the very senior level by the Chinese leadership not to break with Russia openly. You've seen key U.S. partners in the Middle East refusing to speak out against Russia so far in this conflict. And so it's a much more mixed picture than the kind of unity that is often portrayed against Putin.

SCIUTTO: No question. Well, we'll see if the U.S. offers to backfill those Indian purchases of Russian weapons. Susan Glasser, great to have you on.

GLASSER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still to come, the bravery required just to flee Mariupol today. We're live on the ground in Ukraine where people there, you can see some of them, waiting for a massive Red Cross convoy to arrive and get them to safety.

HILL: Also, we're going to speak with the Ukrainian member of parliament whose parents made that harrowing escape. What he is hearing about the conditions inside Mariupol. He'll share that with us ahead.

And later this hour, President Biden speaking at the White House after a very March strong jobs report, slightly lower number of jobs but also a pandemic low for the unemployment rate. We're going to bring you those remarks live.

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[10:15:00] SCIUTTO: Well, right now, a convoy of people evacuated from the just devastated city of Mariupol is on its way to Zaporizhzhia. Some 52 buses as well as private vehicles are transporting 2,000 people, they hope, to safety.

HILL: CNN's Ivan Watson is there in Zaporizhzhia, where they'll arrive. What are you hearing this morning about the convoy's progress?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That it left from this Russian-occupied town of Berdyansk that's kind of a waypoint but that it's been held up somewhere along the way, I believe a town called Vinnytsia that's about an hour's drive south from where I am right now. So, you've got this empty parking lot of a super store where instead of 52 buses showing up carrying 2,000 people, there are kind of one or two cars at a time coming in, battered in, some of them who will hang little white rags on them and signs that say children in Russian.

And the process by police here who check people's documents by the authorities because there is a war, they have to check new arrivals here, there is a national security threat element here, but I think what this highlights is how difficult it has been for the Russian military and the Ukrainian side to come to agreement on trying to get the enormous civilian population that's been trapped in this conflict to escape, and under international law, they're supposed to allow that to happen.

And there are estimates of more than 100,000 people trapped in the Russian encircled -- inside the Russian siege lines in Mariupol and they are not being given easy access to leave. And when people do make it out, a man said, I can't believe I'm here back in Ukrainian- controlled territory. It's almost like a dream come true, and this is after the horrors that people have experienced inside that city enduring shelling day after day after day. Many people I've talked to today say their homes have been destroyed by the Russian artillery and airstrikes.

Now, when people come through and their documents are checked, they're welcomed here in this volunteer center. They've taken over part of the store, and people are offered free clothes here, donations. You can see some of that over here. And then they come on further in and this was very touching for me. There's a very sweet woman named Irina here she gives every child that comes in, she's a volunteer from a church, a toy, which is wonderful after the things that people have endured here.

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And that is certainly -- they said that there was a child that came in and all their toys have been destroyed and the kids started crying when they saw a toy after the kind of war that they've endured.

Everybody here is being given a hot meal. There are medics that have taken over the cafe over there, providing first aid, and I do have to say, Jim and Erica, some of the people we're -- from airstrikes, from blasts that happened. One of these people was a 16-year-old girl that I met with scratches on her face.

Anyway, that's a little piece of what kind of a welcome. This is a volunteer effort that people get when they finally get out of the Russian occupation area and out of the war zone.

Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Listen, so many volunteers inside Ukraine and outside, frankly, the neighboring countries, Poland and elsewhere, just standing up and helping the people of Ukraine. Thank you, Ivan Watson.

I want to speak now to a member of the Ukrainian parliament, Dmytro Gurin. He was born in Mariupol. His parents live there until very recently. Good to have you on, Dmytro.

You just got your parents out. That must be an enormous relief. How did you manage that?

DMYTRO GURIN, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: The transportation isn't completely over, so I don't talk about it, like about details, but, yes, my parents are out of Mariupol now. They're safe. Now, it's the only thing that really matters to me. But we still have 160,000 people in Mariupol that are not safe, and that's a real problem because all of these humanitarian corridors that Russia is simulating, in general, it's fake because, now, you have seen that buses with people that went out from Berdyansk to Zaporizhzhia, but not from Mariupol.

Berdyansk is like a city without shelling and fighting now, and people cannot get out from Mariupol. And the hunger starts there already. And people in MARIUPOL, now it's a topic in the discussions, is this epic enough to get (ph) past? And people already have an answer to this question.

SCIUTTO: It's dark irony these humanitarian corridors Russia is allowing, given that as they're negotiating with them, they continue to bomb the city. And we've been showing pictures.

You shared some video of your childhood neighborhood in Mariupol and I want to show that to people so they get a sense of the utter devastation there. Can you describe to our viewers just the level of destruction and how it feels to see your home be reduced to this?

GURIN: We don't have Mariupol anymore. It's just utterly destroyed. We cannot rebuild it as this city were built. We need to build new city from scratch. Like 90 percent of all the buildings in the city are destroyed totally or heavily damaged and cannot be restored and all my neighborhood where I grew up for 15 years is destroyed to the ground, my house, nine story building, like (INAUDIBLE) apartment is totally black. They get shot from tanks at all times and it's burnt totally from first to ninth floor.

And my school, university, all the hospitals, drama theater, all the central buildings and the center of the city, historical, all of this is totally destroyed. SCIUTTO: It's deliberate. It's part of a plan, it appears, and it's a plan, a military doctrine that Russia has employed in Syria, going back to Chechnya, deliberately, well, burning down cities like we're seeing.

I wonder, you're a member parliament, your government is now negotiating with Russia for an end to this war, which would be welcome, of course, but would you trust an agreement signed by Russia?

GURIN: We have a lot of agreements with Russia during the last 200 hundreds and none these agreements, no one of these agreements were honored by Russia, never. So it's just -- you know, it's not about what we want to see in the future in these agreements and these diplomatic processes, it's just about the reality.

Of course, we don't wage Russia will honor the agreements if they don't honor any agreements with the world.

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It's just delusional to think so.

SCIUTTO: So, let me ask you this then. What kind of security guarantee do you need? If you don't trust Russia's word, do you trust NATO? Do you trust the U.S., the west to give you the security commitment that you need to protect yourselves?

GURIN: I think now it's very important what the people of Ukraine think and more than 80 percent of Ukrainian people wants to join NATO. And, by the way, the number of people who were ready to vote for joining NATO in 2013 before annexation of Crimea and now Donbas, before the beginning of the war, was around 50 percent. So, Mr. Putin (INAUDIBLE) massively these number of Ukrainians and Ukrainians now really want to join NATO.

And, by the way, and I think that now we are in a new situation where everybody has seen what the Ukrainian army in reality is, and that the Russian army, the second powerful armies in the world, it's a real, total fake and the Ukrainian army is not fake.

And in NATO countries, there are not a lot of armies of different countries that really have experience of fight. The Ukrainian army now is not only for us, you know, it's only for -- it's also for all the major countries. Of course, if and when we will join NATO, it will enforce, the Ukrainian army will enforce NATO forces.

SCIUTTO: It's a good point and others have made it, that the Ukrainian army outmeasures probably some armies of countries already in NATO. And the question had been, can Ukraine meet that standard, it's showing that it can very much meet that standard.

Dmytro Gurin, we wish you safety and we wish your family safety as this war continues there.

President Biden is now tapping into emergency oil reserves to try to ease gas prices here in the U.S. Will other nations, particularly Europe, follow suit? We're going to have more on that ahead.

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