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Interview With Deputy Mayor of Mariupol, Ukraine, Sergei Orlov; Russian Troops Exposed to Radiation at Chernobyl?; Russian Fuel Depot on Fire. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 01, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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Ana Cabrera, Don Lemon pick up our coverage right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to our breaking news coverage. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Don Lemon is in Lviv, Ukraine.

And we began this hour with what appears to be a major development in Russia's unprovoked war on Ukraine. Look at the top right of your screen. These are attack helicopters targeting a fuel depot in Belgorod, Russia. That's a city that is served as a logistical hub for this invasion.

And Russia is now accusing Ukraine of this attack. Ukraine will neither confirm nor deny, although there is a report that Ukraine's top security official is denying it. Here's another view of the massive inferno, some 3.5 million gallons of fuel going up in flames and smoke.

If Ukraine carried out this attack, it would be the first known strike on Russian soil and would expose a shocking level of Russian vulnerability.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And the Kremlin says that the attack would hamper today's negotiations, a rich warning, given Russia's relentless bombardment of a sovereign nation.

Here in Ukraine, President Zelenskyy says that he has removed two top generals, stripping them of their rank, saying there is no -- quote -- "time to deal with the traitors."

I want to get straight to CNN's Phil Black with the very latest.

Phil, as we have the air raid sirens going off here, we will continue on as we do that. This airstrike on this fuel depot, why not celebrate this as a military victory?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's a good question, Don. And there is no obvious, clear answer. It is possible that they want to maintain this ambiguity to conceal some sort of capability perhaps.

But the closest thing that I can compare it to in the course of Ukraine's operation so far would be the destruction of a Russian naval ship. This was an operation that Ukraine carried out about a week or so ago. They destroyed a Russian naval ship while it was docked in a Russian-controlled city.

On that occasion, though, Ukraine did accept responsibility. What they didn't reveal was how they did it. On this occasion, they're being even more ambiguous and they're saying we can neither confirm nor deny.

LEMON: All right, Phil Black, thank you very much. We will continue to check on that.

Ana, we will throw it back to you. We will check on this information. And we will be back here.

CABRERA: We know the Russian attack continued to be unrelenting in different parts of Ukraine. Perhaps nowhere is the devastation worse than the southeastern port city of Mariupol.

An estimated 90 percent of the buildings there are damaged. And tens of thousands of people are trapped. Just a few minutes ago, we learned a Red Cross team that was trying to head into that city to help with evacuations has had to turn back. Now, this is a separate team than another one that did manage to get a few people out.

I spoke to Mariupol's deputy mayor about the humanitarian crisis that grows worse by the hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: I'm so sorry, again, for what you are going through.

First of all, how are you holding up?

SERGEI ORLOV, DEPUTY MAYOR OF MARIUPOL, UKRAINE: So, we, of course, are very sad with the situation with our city. City is totally destroyed.

City is like ruins. And we're very upset not because of infrastructure, but because of people. So we do not know how to help our citizens who is suffering inside the city, because, as you know, Russia does not allow to solve any humanitarian issue, to transfer any humanitarian help, and to make evacuation of our citizens for many days. CABRERA: I have been praying for good news for you, for your city. We reported the Red Cross had sent in a team to try to bring aid and safely evacuate people from your city. What happened? Were people able to evacuate?

ORLOV: Once again, I want to clarify, there is not any solution to reach Mariupol, either humanitarian help, either evacuate citizens.

What we're talking about, we're talking, and the Red Cross help under their umbrella -- we're talking about evacuating Mariupol citizens who are in Berdyansk, who are near Mariupol, nearest villages, who reached Mariupol, who reached Berdyansk themselves either by walking, by their own private cars.

So a lot of Mariupol citizens made the evacuation themselves. And it's about 30,000 to 50,000 Mariupol citizens are in Berdyansk and nearest villages at the moment.

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So, this mission helps us and make possible of evacuating Mariupol citizens from Berdyansk to Zaporizhzhia. It's very good. It's absolutely necessary. People want to be evacuated. And this day, we evacuated 45 buses. It is about 2,531 Mariupol citizens, and among them is 710 children.

They are on the way to Zaporizhzhia.

CABRERA: And yet there are still, my last understanding was, at least tens of thousands of people left in the city, trapped in the city. How are they doing? How are they even able to survive if no aid is getting in?

ORLOV: It's -- I cannot even describe in words how life look like in Mariupol.

But I would tell with such information. All our citizens who have possibility to reach Zaporizhzhia for latest several days, they even cannot eat. It is common for us to help -- to have three dishes, but three dishes per week, so we are eating on Monday, Tuesday and Friday. So we cannot even eat a lot.

And all people who reached Zaporizhzhia, so their volume of food is one-third or one-fourth of adult person. So it's the situation which is -- describes how they are surviving in Mariupol. So this number of citizens, and our estimation is 150,000 citizens is still in Mariupol. They are living like mouses.

So all of them are living underground in shelter, bomb shelter, in some spaces below earth, so just to have possibility to survive, not to be killed by airstrikes, by missiles, by shelling. And they're sharing some food to each other. So it's typical food for day is a glass of water with to -- one or two cakes, one glass of soup in afternoon, and also one glass of water and one cake in the evening.

CABRERA: Oh, my goodness. ORLOV: So it's common ration of our citizens. It's a real situation in Mariupol.

CABRERA: What can you tell us about the reports we heard earlier that Russians were forcibly taking residents, including children, from Mariupol into Russia? What exactly is happening?

ORLOV: Yes, it's absolutely true.

In the Mariupol territory, I mean this mostly outskirts which Russia temporarily occupies, they force people to evacuate from here and even make deportation.

CABRERA: And what we have heard from President Zelenskyy is that children have been removed. Are those children with their parents? And do you know, then, what the plans are for them?

ORLOV: We know that some children lost after filtration. We know such situation.

For example, we know that in Donetsk, in Mechnikova Hospital, there are to 2,000 children. And you should understand that it's children with -- their parents were killed by Russian, or they were separated somehow, because, before the war, before 24th of February, we evacuate all children without parents to Ukrainian-controlled territory.

So, at the moment of invasion and war, in Mariupol, we did not have children without parents. So, if they find somehow 2,000 -- 2,000 children without parents, how it's possible? So it's either their parents were killed by Russian. Either they separated them in filtration, so only two answers could be.

CABRERA: Mariupol Deputy Mayor Sergei Orlov, thank you very much for taking the time. Our hearts are with you, and sending you strength and energy to get through this.

ORLOV: Yes, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: And, Ana, we have a lot to unpack this hour.

Joining me now, CNN national security analyst Shawn Turner, a former director of communications for the U.S. national intelligence, and retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson.

Hello to both of you.

General, let's begin with the attack on the Russian fuel depot, 3.5 million gallons of fuel lost. But assuming it's Ukraine, is the strategic blow to Russia much greater than that?

BRIG. GEN. STEVE ANDERSON (RET.), U.S. ARMY: It is a significant strategic event for Russia.

I mean, it's hugely significant. I mean, obviously, it could be. I mean, first, we need to confirm it's not a false flag, because it could be, could contribute to the narrative that Vladimir Putin is trying to paint that Ukraine is the aggressor.

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But, of course, it also shows the vulnerability of the Russian air defense. And I'm not sure that's a particularly good look for Vladimir Putin either. But if Ukraine did this, it's operationally somewhat significant. I mean, any time you can take out enemy logistics, that's a good thing.

But fuel production and storage isn't the issue for the Russian logistics. It's really about distribution, getting it to the last tactical mile. And, of course, the other operational impact that this could create is that now Russia is going to have to divert some air defenses internally within Russia to cover down some of the logistics bases that they previously thought were out of range from the Ukrainians.

But, again, strategically, taking it to the Russians, showing that they don't have complete air superiority, the public appearance (AUDIO GAP) Ukrainians, you're -- now you're providing direct evidence to the Russians that the war is going poorly.

And, of course, that is -- that's without the filter of Russian state media. So, therefore, I would not be surprised if Ukrainians actually did this.

LEMON: Yes.

Shawn, you heard the brigadier general. Russia -- can Russia seize on the attack to support its narrative, laughable that it may be, that Ukraine is a true aggressor in this war?

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, look, I think the general makes a great point, Don.

Look, we just have to remember that, no matter what Russia does, this whole idea that Russia is losing this battle, losing this fight is going to continue to have an implication for troops on the ground. They're going to continue to struggle with morale, their ability to get resources, weapons to repair their gear. And so, as the general said, what Russia wants to do more than anything is not only focus on the kinetic war.

We know how important that is to Russia. But we have seen repeatedly that Russia is very interested in focusing on the information war. And so if Russia is in a position to paint the Ukrainians as the aggressor -- and it matters that this attack was inside of Russia.This is a little different than the attack on the ship. This was inside Russia.

If this is held up as an opportunity for Russia to paint Ukraine as the aggressor, then that's going to matter to the international community, and it's going to matter more than the propaganda that we have seen coming out of Russia. Russia has been saying for quite some time that Ukraine has been an aggressor and is the cause of this conflict.

But this is something that we all see. We see the images. It's a massive explosion. The Russians are saying it's Ukraine, that Ukraine is saying, we're not going to confirm or deny, which I think is smart on their part. But this is something we're going to have to -- that the Russians will be watching.

And if the Russians can determine that this in any way changes the narrative just a little bit, then we will see more of this with regard to Ukraine's actions being painted as aggression towards Russia.

LEMON: What about the idea, though, Shawn, of this as a false flag operation actually committed by Russia?

TURNER: Yes, I think it's a possibility.

As the general said, we know that this is the kind of thing that Russia has done and will do. This is sort of part of Russian tradecraft when they're desperate. We know that Vladimir Putin is desperate right now.

But I think that this is the kind of thing that's normal. It's just a matter of time before we're able to determine whether or not this really did happen.

But to be really candid, Don, I think that Vladimir -- that Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian troops, they have their hands full inside Ukraine right now trying to defend their territory against Russian aggression. I think that just -- and, again, we don't know the facts. But if I were assessing this, I would have to look hard at this.

And I need -- I would need to see some really clear intelligence evidence that the Ukrainians made a decision to go across the border and launch this strike. I think strategically, as the general said, it does give some advantage here. But I think that their resources, their effort is better focused inside Ukraine.

LEMON: General, the Ukrainian president -- speaking of Zelenskyy, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says that he fired two top generals. What do you make of that?

ANDERSON: Don, I think this is really important.

First of all, dissension in the ranks within the Ukraine army, it's not a new thing. I mean, loyalty to mother Russia and the old Soviet regime, that has been something that Ukrainians have been dealing with for three decades. So, it's not surprising that there's some senior leaders that have mixed loyalties, because many of these leaders grew up in the Soviet era, and perhaps even share Putin's desire to restore the Russian bloc, the Russian empire.

But I think this is profoundly important because it shows Zelenskyy's internal political strength, first of all, that he could identify these disloyal leaders and, second, that he would take appropriate action against them. I mean, it shows transparency. And that's really important. It sends a

powerful message to the Ukrainian people, to the rest of the world, that he is willing to share bad news, because war is like that, and the fog of war and all that. There's going to be bad news.

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But he's not sugarcoating it. He's willing to share bad news. And he wants to make sure that he can do that and build credibility, ensure that he maintains the support of U.S. and NATO in the rest of the war in this illegal war against his country.

LEMON: Shawn Turner and Brigadier General Steve Anderson, thanks so much -- Ana.

CABRERA: The U.N.'s top nuclear watchdog is now racing in to Chernobyl, after Russian troops occupying that disaster site seemed to bolt out. Were they exposed to radiation, and just how much? A top Chernobyl expert joins us next.

Plus, today's jobs report shows more proof of a recovery, but it is the other R-word that has some experts worried, recession.

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CABRERA: The United Nations nuclear watchdog says he's leading a mission to Chernobyl as soon as possible amid reports that Russian troops who invaded that site are now suffering from radiation poisoning.

Ukraine's nuclear operator says Russian forces have now abandoned Chernobyl marching into columns north toward Belarus, but not before receiving -- quote -- "significant doses of radiation." The site director says Russians not only created thick and potentially radioactive dust driving their vehicles around this area, but also dug trenches in what's known as the Red Forest.

That's the most contaminated part of the entire exclusion zone from the worst nuclear disaster in history.

Dr. Lydia Zablotska is a leading expert on radiation exposure. And she also grew up in Ukraine. She has visited Chernobyl and led studies on the nuclear fallout there.

So, Doctor, I'm so grateful to have your expertise.

Today, Russian troops were in control of Chernobyl for five weeks, reportedly creating and breathing in dust clouds and digging in the soil on the Red Forest. So, in layman's terms, how much radiation may these soldiers have been exposed to?

LYDIA ZABLOTSKA, UCSF SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Thank you for inviting me.

We don't know. The minute Russian troops entered the Chernobyl zone, they switched off their radiological meters. So, we sort of lost the data points from there. But from anecdotal evidence, and from interviews, and published reports, my understanding is that they may have some exposure, but I don't think it will be in such a substantial amount of radiation that would cause radiation sickness or any other substantial immediate reactions.

CABRERA: That's interesting, because the state-owned operator of Ukraine's nuclear power plant says that Russian troops were showing signs of illness, and they started to panic. There was almost a riot among them, according to this official.

What would be the initial symptoms of radiation exposure?

ZABLOTSKA: For your audience, acute radiation syndrome could have different manifestations. And it depends on the dose.

So they could have hematopoietic type. This will usually be something above one gray, a tremendous amount of radiation, and they will be having symptoms of nausea, vomiting, general malaise. And then, if you have -- if -- people who are exposed to higher doses, 10 gray and above, will have gastrointestinal symptoms.

So they're vomiting and others. And then, at very, very high doses of radiation, there could be effect on cardiovascular and central nervous system.

Just to give viewers an idea, after the Chernobyl accident, people who went into the reactor, the cleanup workers, and had really high doses of radiation, we know that about 130 or so people overall developed acute radiation symptom -- syndrome.

And the whole situation is Chernobyl was very high doses. So I don't think this is something that could happen here. But, of course, we have to wait and listen more reports and look at the actual data points that will be coming, I hope soon, when they reconnect the meters.

CABRERA: Yes.

So, I mean, if there was a release of radiation, even from digging in the Red Forest, for example, would that put people in that area who live near Chernobyl or Ukrainian workers Who are at that site, would that put them in danger right now?

ZABLOTSKA: I don't think so.

So the people who were standing immediately around contaminated soil could get substantial exposures. They probably would not have acute radiation syndrome. I think it's unlikely. It's possible, but unlikely.

But what could happen is that, after receiving the substantial doses of radiation, later on in life, they -- do to DNA damage, they could be at risk for cancers and non-cancer diseases. This is probably the most likely scenario.

CABRERA: Dr. Lydia Zablotska, I really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much for enlightening us.

ZABLOTSKA: Thank you.

CABRERA: All right, here's some good news: Unemployment just dropped to a new pandemic era low. The bad news, Americans are still feeling serious economic pain and experts say a recession could be ahead.

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Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Welcome back.

New numbers out today show the job market is red hot. Employers added 431,000 jobs in March, and the unemployment rate is now at a pandemic era low, 3.6 percent.

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