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Treasury Official: Russia Facing Recession That Will "Only Get Deeper"; Kremlin: Fuel Depot Strike Could Hurt Ukraine-Russia Talks; Regional Military Governor: Missiles Strike Odessa Region; Ukrainian Negotiator: Talks Between Russia And Ukraine Enabled Prisoner Swap; Mayor: Ukraine Retakes Irpin' From Russian Forces But It's In Ruins; Iulia Mendel, Former Spokesperson For President Zelenskyy, Discusses Attack On Russia Fuel Depot, Zelenskyy Reportedly Firing 2 Generals He Called Traitors; U.S. And Its Allies Weigh Security Guarantees For Ukraine. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 01, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

MATT EGAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: Let me read you a key line from the Treasury Department. This is from a senior treasury official, who said, "The economic consequences Russia is facing are severe -- high inflation that will only get higher, and deep recession that will only get deeper."

And this is no coincidence. The United States is saying this is the goal of sanctions. They're trying to decimate the economy to degrade their military capability.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: So this is not sustainable at all?

EGAN: Right. You've got it.

BLACKWELL: Matt Egan, thank you.

EGAN: Thanks.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We begin this hour with breaking news. Ukrainian military officials say three missiles have just hit a settlement in the Odessa region. That's in the south. They say there are casualties. We'll take you live to Odessa in just a moment.

But there are also reports of possible Ukrainian gains this hour. The mayor of Bucha, near the capital, Kyiv, says that Ukrainian soldiers have recaptured their town from Russian occupiers.

CAMEROTA: And the Kremlin is accusing Ukraine of launching a missile and striking a fuel depot inside Russia. New video shows a fire and huge plumes of smoke in Belgorod. This is just over the border into Russia.

The Russian Defense Ministry says two Ukrainian helicopters entered the territory, flying at a low altitude, and attacked.

CNN cannot confirm this claim.

And the Ukraine defense minister would neither confirm nor deny this report.

A spokesman for the Kremlin says this strike could negatively impact peace talks between Russia and Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Don Lemon joins us live from Lviv in the western part of the country.

Don, a lot of developments there at this hour.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Indeed, there are, Victor and Alisyn. Russian missiles have just hit near Odessa in southern Ukraine. That's according to local officials.

CNN's Ed Lavandera joins us now live from there.

Ed, what more do we know about these strikes?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Don. About an hour and a half ago, we heard a barrage of air defense fire here in the Odessa region. It lasted several minutes.

Then within the last 30 minutes, the regional head of the military here in Odessa confirmed, quote - and this is from a statement they just released - saying:

"The enemy has just struck with three missiles at a settlement in the Odessa district from the Iskander Missile System launched from the Crimea peninsula. There are casualties."

That's as much as the statement says this evening. We're trying to determine the exact location of what area of this region was struck and the extent of the casualties.

And what kind of area was struck. Was it residential or was it a strategic target? We don't know at this point.

What we can tell you is, about an hour and a half ago, we heard the blast of these air defense systems going off for several minutes.

And it comes after several days of rather peace and quiet here in the Odessa region. We hadn't heard much of anything. In fact, just a handful of air raid sirens over the course of the last few days.

But that dramatically changing here tonight -- Don?

LEMON: All right. Ed Lavandera with the very latest on that.

We want to get more context now on what happened across Russia's border.

CNN's senior international correspondent, Fred Pleitgen, joins me now live from Kyiv.

Fred, what is each side saying happened? And is there any chance this is a false-flag operation on behalf of the Russians?

FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's that chance, even though the Russians are saying that the Ukrainians are behind this.

Ukrainians so far have been very coy about it and said they can't confirm or deny that the Ukrainians would have been behind this.

I mean, you see that giant fire there at that facility in Belgorod.

It could be quite difficult for the Ukrainians to pull this off. I'll tell you why. I was in the Belgorod region for a very long time when this war started.

Belgorod is very close to Kharkiv on the other side of the Ukrainian side of the border. But it is still about 70 Kilometers, about 50 miles away from the border.

So for a helicopter to be able to launch from Kharkiv, which has been under massive attack by Russian forces, fly all the way to Belgorod, hit the target and fly all the way back certainly would be very difficult.

You see the video there of what seems to be missiles striking at the fuel depot. And the Russians are saying this happened at 5:00 a.m. local time.

They say it was an MI-8 helicopter -- MI-24 helicopter -- I'm sorry -- which are sort of a mix of gunships and transport helicopters. They came in, fired those missiles. There was a giant fire.

The Russians are saying that this is a civilian facility.

But when you go down in the Belgorod region, that is the main entry point that the Russians use to attack the town of Kharkiv. And that is just littered with military facilities.

In fact, that entire city has a lot of military bases around it. And that, alone, would make it difficult for choppers from Ukraine to be able to fly across the border and hit that facility. Nevertheless, that's what the Russians are saying.

[15:05:05]

And as you guys have already noted as well that Dmitry Peskov, the Kremlin spokesman, also said this could negatively impact talks between Russia and Ukraine as well.

Certainly, if the Ukrainians pulled this off, it would be a brazen counterattack by them against these Russian facilities -- Don? LEMON: Yes.

Fred, last hour, the Ukrainian minister told Christiane Amanpour that peace talks did, indeed, take place today. Do we know anything about that? Because there wasn't a readout. But what do we know, anything?

PLEITGEN: No. Yes, there wasn't a read out at all.

But we know there seems to be some achievements, if you will, from the talks. Not just the ones that took place today but the ones that have been taking place throughout the course of the week.

One of the things we have to keep in mind is that there's these talks, for instance, when the two sides meet in places like Turkey, with the Turks helping to facilitate those talks.

But they go on as well in a virtual format. The two sides talk to one another.

Now the Ukrainians are saying that a prisoner swap has now happened thanks to those talks. They say they got 86 servicemembers back, including several female servicemembers as well.

And they hope to continue that and get more of their people out of the hands of the Russians. So it certainly should seem to be incredible gains.

While, at the same time, the Kremlin is now saying, with the chopper attack that happened, they think that does not help move any sort of talking forward.

So it seems as though the Russians are quite angry about that attack, saying it could impact those talks.

But it does seem it has at least yielded something when it comes to getting prisoners released -- Don?

LEMON: Yes. As Christiane was saying, the talks happened and we just don't know. Obviously, the Russians have not been consistent in anything they're saying.

Just sort of inconsistent with reality for them to take umbrage with bombing after the assault that they had on Ukraine. And if the Ukrainians pay it back.

Listen, Ukrainian officials said today, Fred, that the city of Irpin -- let's talk about that -- is back in their control.

You took a very dangerous trip that I've been watching here inside the city to get a look at the damage. What did you see what did you see?

PLEITGEN: Yes. Look, Irpin is one of those suburbs of Kyiv. That was really the place, Don, where the Russian army tried to blast their way into the Ukrainian capital.

You can see some of the destroyed armaments, the destroyed buildings. Massive destruction through that entire area.

The mayor of Irpin estimates that about 50 percent of the buildings in that place were destroyed. We believe that is actually underestimated damage simply because we saw so much destruction on streets.

Unfortunately, still a lot of dead bodies also littering not just the streets but it seems as though some of the buildings there as well.

And what you're seeing there, destroyed Russian military vehicles. The Russians obviously were inside Irpin. There was some fierce fighting but then they were pushed back.

Now we have gotten the news -- I think they were just talking about -- that the city of Bucha has now apparently also fallen back into the hands of the Ukrainians. That's a pretty big thing. That's right next Irpin.

So it really shows how to Ukrainians are gaining ground and the Russians possibly withdrawing back to Belarus, losing a lot of ground very quickly -- Don?

LEMON: All right, thank you, Fred Pleitgen. I appreciate it.

I think, Victor and Alisyn, that video up now, it just looks -- the burned-out cars. There are refueling vehicles that are completely burned and scorched. There are tanks that are completely burned and scorched.

And we're getting reports from people here whose relatives are on the front lines and they are saying, as Fred said, bodies lying in the middle of the street. I mean, it's just decimated.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And these were suburbs.

BLACKWELL: You look at some of munitions, they're essentially mines that have not detonated throughout the city. We saw one in the playground there.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

Don, we'll check back with you.

Let's bring in now former spokesperson for President Zelenskyy, Iulia Mendel.

Iulia, thank you so much. I know you're joining us from Lviv in Ukraine.

That report that our reporters just brought to us about the helicopters attacking the fuel depot in Russia. Do you think those were Ukrainian helicopters?

IULIA MENDEL, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: Thank you for having me. We're saying they are not responsible for what is happening in Russia.

And different sources inside the government say this might be Russian propaganda that Russia was generously -- (AUDIO PROBLEM) -- toward Ukraine.

Actually, the Ukrainian minister of defense, several days ago and even a week ago, was saying there would be a provocation from the Russian side to try to escalate the situation and try to justify the illogical and brutal invasion of Ukraine.

(CROSSTALK)

[15:10:00]

MENDEL: I'm saying that Ukrainian authorities right now are, from the government, say that it's not likely that this would be a Ukrainian attack because Russia used disingenuous information to try make provocation and to just provide escalation for the invasion that has happened in February.

CAMEROTA: Iulia, because you worked with President Zelenskyy for years, I wanted to ask you about his firing, his getting rid of the two top generals that he called traitors.

What do you think they did that forced him to come out to talk about them as not knowing to which homeland they belong?

MENDEL: That's quite a story. President Zelenskyy actually said overstaying on the positions is his value as a person and as a president and manager.

It's like it's kind of a tradition if he save the injustice and politics and people do not cope with their obligation. He doesn't doubt to what the resignation.

But in this case actually, there's a good justification for this story.

One of the people who was fired from quite a top position from security service of Ukraine was already known publicly for accusations of abuse of authority and even corruption.

The investigation was ongoing. I do not know if this investigation has been finished.

What we know is this person left for his family, Ukraine, just a few hours before the invasion started.

Being on such opposition in law enforcement and security forces of Ukraine, he had the information about the invasion information about the invasion.

Ukrainian martial law says that men must stay in Ukraine. They must stay in Ukraine to protect.

I must tell you that around 500,000 of Ukrainians have evacuated to Poland and 80 percent are mean.

So it's kind of moral conflict when he left Ukraine before invasion and being involved in an investigation about of abuse of power, of his authority and corruption.

The second guy was responsible for the internal security in the south of Ukraine. This is the region which is occupied by Russians. Obviously, he did not manage to keep the internal security of the region, which is very important. (AUDIO PROBLEM)

So for President Zelenskyy, is say that politics need to follow doctrine. And doctrine very important for the society.

So these two resignations were pretty just right and obviously that was -- (INAUDIBLE).

CAMEROTA: That's really helpful. That's more information than we knew about what was happening behind the scenes there.

On a personal note, I know you recently had to say good-bye to your fiance. He was the adviser to the Ministry of Energy a month ago. And now he is going to the front lines to fight.

I can only imagine how scary that is for you. Are you hearing from him?

MENDEL: Yes, we stay in touch with him but not as much as we used to stay in touch. I worry what he is not saying to me than he is saying. He is not saying much.

We cannot reveal information. He cannot speak over the phone so much. He send me short messages. And I just pray he will be safe.

But he's in a fight right now. And every day, I really hope that this will finish soon and we can be together.

But I understand this was a difficult decision. But I understand this is the fight of so many families and so many people. We are Ukrainians. We must defend our hope.

He could avoid going to the army but he decided to do this and join the Special Forces to help to do what is needed and what he can contribute. So I was happy -- (AUDIO PROBLEM).

CAMEROTA: I know how hard it is, even though you respect it. And everyone prays that this ends soon.

Iulia Mendel, thank you very much. Great to talk to you.

BLACKWELL: A personal and professional connection. When she said his name, I don't know if you noticed, but she took this deep long breath before she got to that answer. It was good to hear from her about that angle as well.

Listen, the U.S. and Western allies are considering how best to provide security to Ukraine if the country foregoes the bid for NATO membership. We have new reporting on what is being considered.

[15:14:49]

CAMEROTA: And more than four million people have fled Ukraine, mostly women and children. We'll bring you inside a women's hospital in Poland where many new mothers are having to live in limbo.

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BLACKWELL: The U.S. and allies are exploring ways that the West could provide Ukraine with security guarantees. That's according to multiple sources.

CAMEROTA: In peace talks with Russia this week, Ukraine said it could be willing to drop its bid for NATO membership but only if the West provides legally binding protection from any future Russian attack.

CNN's Natasha Bertrand joins us now.

Natasha, how is that different than NATO protection?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, it's really not, Alisyn.

Obviously, what the Ukrainians are asking for are legally binding guarantees from the West, including the U.S. and the U.K., that would force them essentially to defend Ukraine in the event of another Russian invasion.

[15:20:01]

For example, in these peace talks were successful and if Ukraine did give up its NATO membership member, then, in exchange, what they would want is some kind of protection from the West because they will not feel secure as long as Russia is on the border.

They feel this is a very menacing figure and they will have to deal with that for the entirety of their existence. So they do not feel that because of peace negotiations that that will be the end of this conflict, of course.

So what they want from the U.S. and the U.K. and the Western countries, writ-large, is some kind of guarantee that troops from the Western countries will be placed on their territory and will defend Ukraine against any Russian aggression should that occur in the future.

Now obviously, this is very unlikely to happen. These talks are still in preliminary discussions.

But the United States and its allies have said they are not willing, at this point, to put their forces in direct confrontation with Russian troops. That is simply not on the table at this point.

There are some discussions, some conversations about perhaps kind of a middle ground here whereby the United States could perhaps engage in some kind of political agreement with Ukraine guaranteeing that they would ensure their security in a way that's not legally binding.

But the Ukrainians are saying they don't want any middle ground here. This is existential for them.

That is, their security is going to be protected, if they're going to protect the West and Europe from a Russian onslaught, they say, of course, they have been a buffer in that, then they need those guarantees.

Some members of the European Union say that they E.U. membership could be that kind of middle ground for the Ukrainians, that joining the E.U. could provide them with a layer of security.

But Ukrainians are saying, no, we need a real hard military security guarantee.

CAMEROTA: OK, Natasha Bertrand, thank you for explaining all of that.

BLACKWELL: All right, with me now is Ian Brzezinski, former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Europe and NATO policy. He's also a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

Ian, welcome back.

Let's start here with the Ukrainians don't want a middle ground because that's what they have already. They have the security assurance assurances from the Budapest Memo in 1994 when they gave up their nuclear weapons.

The U.S., the U.K. said there would be security assurances if there was a breach of their territorial integrity. They now want some legal, binding guarantees, which could mean troops.

Should the U.S., the U.K., the West provide that?

IAN BRZEZINSKI, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL & FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR EUROPE AND NATO POLICY: I think they have to.

I mean, when you think about it, first, we should point that, why is Ukraine flirting with neutrality? It's not because of Russian aggression. It's because NATO won't open its doors to them.

So Ukraine feels fear that it will be back in the situation that it was before this war started.

So when it talks about neutrality and security guarantees, it's bringing into play some contradictions and some tensions.

Neutrality is parament, in its purist form, paramount to isolation for Ukraine. It's the West on one side and an unarmed and alone Ukraine on the other. And that's a bad situation. It's paying the price for that now.

Security guarantees, by the way, contradict neutrality but only from one side. And if you have security guarantees from Russia and the West, kind of

like with -- it sounds like division, like what we had with Germany after World War II.

Security guarantees are meaningless unless they're actuated with military presence.

The challenge is how to ensure Ukraine is not banished to a gray zone of insecurity like it was found before.

I really feel it's hard to do that without some sort of Western military presence in Ukraine after this war is over.

BLACKWELL: So western military -- are you talking about permanent U.S. troops in Ukraine?

BRZEZINSKI: I mean, think about what we're doing with the Baltic States, with Poland and now with Romania.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: But they're also NATO members.

BRZEZINSKI: -- provide Ukraine security that's going to be meaningful, it's going have to be actualized by military presence. Otherwise, we're back where we were in 1994 with paper guarantees.

BLACKWELL: And the Ukrainians obviously not satisfied with the assurances they've got. They got the military assistance but not a single U.S. military person on the ground helping them fight.

Let me ask you about the possibility, the plausibility of a negotiated end to this if the U.S., if the U.K. are not willing to offer those guarantees of security. Can it happen?

BRZEZINSKI: Anything can happen. I mean, but we have to realize that, first, Ukraine will be making its own decisions about its sovereignty and security.

But what the West does and does not do in this conflict, what it's willing today tomorrow and the next day after this conflict profoundly shapes Kyiv's decisions.

So we've not just bystanders. We're actually shaping the outcome of these negotiations. We're parties to it whether we like it or not.

[15:24:57]

I just don't see how you can have Ukraine really being security and Russia really being deterred if there isn't some sort of Western military presence backing up an agreement that provides security guarantees for Ukraine that are viable, believable, and particularly resonate with the Russians.

BLACKWELL: I really just done see how that is possible considering the reluctance from the West to even supply planes to the Ukrainians. That now that there would be any way that there would be a commitment of U.S. forces in Ukraine when we know Russia sees it as an existential threat that Ukraine would be welcomed to join NATO, that there would be U.S. troops next door.

Let me get your thoughts on this last element, actually what is the biggest story that happened that we saw this morning, this attack on the fuel depot in Belgorod.

The Ukrainians will not confirm or deny. The Russians say the Ukrainians are responsible.

And the Kremlin says this could hurt peace talks. Well, there wasn't much confidence that the peace talks would end the war.

If you're in Washington, what's your view of this?

BRZEZINSKI: Of this raid?

BLACKWELL: Yes. Go ahead.

BRZEZINSKI: Victor?

Yes. I mean, if you're talking about this raid, this is a David-and- Goliath moment of war, another one of these remarkable demonstrations of Ukrainian courage and tenacity.

I mean, this involved helicopters flying 30-mile into Russian territory, 30 miles across enemy lines, probably flying at tree-top level.

That probably reflects also Ukrainian capacity to get real solid intelligence about the location of air defense systems and servers, things that these helos would want to avoid.

You know, again, tremendous tenacity and courage of Ukrainian air crews.

And while this might not have a strategic effect on the war, if it's, in fact, a Ukrainian raid, it's another act of valor and courage, which will motivate Ukrainians.

It'll bring the war in a tangible way into Russia in a way that will chip away at the narrative of the war that Putin has imposed on the Russian people.

So it's daring raid but potentially one that will have impact beyond the actual tactical effect it has on the fight.

BLACKWELL: All right, Ian Brzezinski, always good to have your perspective. Thank you.

President Biden is tapping into emergency oil reserves to try to curb gas prices. He will release one million barrels of oil each day for the next six months.

CAMEROTA: So, when will prices come down? Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm here next.

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