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Satellite Images Show Russians Have Withdrawn From Airport Near Kyiv; Russian Forces Target Major Ukrainian Oil Refinery; Russian Forces Shifting Focus From Kyiv; Ukrainian Negotiator Says Advances In Talk With Russia, Possibly Of "Direct Consultations" Between Zelenskyy, Putin; Western Spy Agencies Weaponizing Intel To Undermine Putin; Ukrainian MP Speaks To CNN About Life During Russian War. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 02, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:54]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Welcome to this Special Edition of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Christiane Amanpour live in Kyiv.

Liberated: That is how one senior Ukrainian Defense official is describing the situation in the Kyiv region. That's where I am, the capital. This, after weeks of relentless attacks across the area.

Here in Kyiv, Ukraine has regained control of the nearby Antonov Airport. Russian forces stormed that airfield on the first day of the war. But new satellite images show that it is now completely deserted.

Now Russian forces are repositioning their efforts and U.S. officials say they are revising their war strategy to focus on the east, trying to take control of the Donbas and other regions in that part of the country by early May.

Still, negotiations between the two countries appear to be gaining momentum at least according to a member of Ukrainian negotiating team who says that Russia has responded positively to several Ukrainian positions.

He now says there is a possibility of quote, "direct consultations" between Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and the Russian President Vladimir Putin.

That is likely little comfort though, for civilians trapped in cities like Mariupol in the south. For the second straight day, the Red Cross has been trying to reach the devastated city, 100,000 civilians are still trapped there.

But let us begin right here in Kyiv with senior international correspondent, Fred Pleitgen and he is here with me.

Fred, it is pretty amazing after all of this that we've been covering to hear a senior official say liberated around here.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

AMANPOUR: But you've been out and about, we've been out and about. Just explain what you've been seeing.

PLEITGEN: Yes, and certainly it seems to be real. I mean, it seems -- it certainly seems to be the case that the Russians are simply gone, that they've withdrawn from this area, but they did so under a hail of fire. That's one of the things that we always have to point out, that when they were withdrawing, they just unleashed this massive artillery fire, especially on the outskirts of Kyiv as they were probably trying to cover their retreat.

And what you see that in the aftermath is first of all, that the Ukrainian seem to not have been under estimating the amount of Russian armor that was being destroyed. I mean, when we were going around, you see it everywhere. You see destroyed tanks, armored vehicles, trucks -- everything. The Russians seem to have taken a massive beating here.

And the other thing, unfortunately, is you see a lot of dead bodies everywhere. It's a really gruesome thing, but it does seem as though a lot of civilians have been killed.

AMANPOUR: I mean, there was even some talk, you know, in the town of Bucha, there might be a mass grave.

PLEITGEN: Yes. This is what the Ukrainians officials are saying. They are saying, it is around 300 bodies, I they're still trying to sort of come to terms with that. And it's not the end of it, there are still more bodies in the streets there as well.

AMANPOUR: Can we just take a reality check here. I mean, you've seen the videos, we've seen drone footage that the Ukrainians have provided, we've seen overhead satellites and stuff. It is actually extraordinary to see how they did target civilians in real time on video. The evidence is there.

PLEITGEN: Absolutely. The evidence is there. There's one incident that took place at the beginning of March where you saw, there was a drone crew from the Ukrainians, which is a Civil Defense Force, and you see a tank shooting a civilian. You see civilians getting out of a car, raising their hands and getting mowed down by a Russian tank, and two people were killed in that incident.

There are others as well that we've seen that we've been able to geo locate and verify, of course, geolocation is so important in this conflict. But yes, it is something that has happened. And in other cases, I mean, those were the most blatant cases. But there's other cases where just recklessness, carelessness and it led to civilians dying.

And I think one of the things that we always have to keep in mind, we always have to take a step back in all of this and remind ourselves, at the beginning of this, the Russians claimed they were only here to target Nazis or something, they would not harm the civilian population.

Look at these places.

AMANPOUR: And actually, it's important also to say that the Ukrainian officials say look, they're not just running away because they're trying to regroup or whatever. We have pushed them out. And actually we have got some very exclusive video and access to some prisoners of war.

We're hearing now from two former Ukrainian prisoners of war, let's just listen to them.

[18:05:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANYA, EX-PRISONER OF WAR (through translator): At first, they took us very aggressively and made us shout "Glory to Russia." And whoever didn't want to do that, they used physical measures were.

GLEB, EX-PRISONER OF WAR (through translator): They hit me in the face with machine gun butts and kicked me. My front teeth were also chipped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I mean, it's pretty amazing to hear that and it appears that the Ukrainians managed to get some 83 to 86 POWs back in return for sending some Russians back.

PLEITGEN: Actual negotiations that have been going on.

AMANPOUR: Yes, exactly.

PLEITGEN: The negotiations that continue -- that continue to go on, but there are other harrowing stories from these people. You can see some of the video here, obviously, they are very relieved to finally be out of there, getting greeted by some of their comrades, some of their friends. You know, and they came -- they were taken prisoner in various places along the frontlines, and then brought together and brought over here.

But a lot of them did say that they had been harmed, and you see people here on crutches, unclear where that came from. But there are others who said that their legs were beaten, that they were humiliated. The things they said was really bad. They had to watch Russian TV all day, which they said was bad.

But in general, look at this. I mean, look at that leg.

AMANPOUR: Can you say anything about the morale of the Russians?

PLEITGEN: I don't think they said much about that. But I think that the Russians, they did say that the Russians believed that they were all Neo Nazis, and I'm sure we're surprised to find that that isn't the case and it is the big lie of this war that the Russian troops come here, they think they're liberating these people and these people don't want to get liberated, they're fine. And that's just one of the big things where you just see the reality

gap that the Russian government has just lied to its own troops, to its own people, is lying to them, and then obviously, that's probably one of the reasons why they walked into this disaster.

AMANPOUR: It is extraordinary, and we've still got weeks of this to play out. Fred, thank you so much, indeed.

PLEITGEN: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Now, let's talk more about the state of this war right now, because I'm being joined by the CNN military analyst and the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, General Wesley Clark.

Welcome to the program, General Clark.

We go back a long way. We've covered a lot of wars together, and I just wonder what you're seeing now with this claim of liberation around Kyiv, obviously redirection of forces to the east, but how you see the momentum, country-wide, potentially, you know, playing out over the next few weeks.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's on a knife edge, Christiane. I mean, it's really reassuring to see the liberation of the Kyiv area. On the other hand, if the Russian forces that are building up in the Donbas are not eliminated, this moment of exultation could be very, very temporary.

There is a lot of Russian combat power there. And remember, the Ukrainians don't have their own military industrial complex. They're dependent on assistance from other countries, not only the U.S., but from our NATO allies, because they need that kind of old Soviet equipment. They can't use our M-1 tanks and so forth. If they don't get what they need, they could be quickly overwhelmed by the Russians in the next offensive.

AMANPOUR: So certainly, the Ukrainians are not feeling exultant at all as you say. They are also saying that the next phase of this, the east and the south, is going to be very, very difficult is what the senior Defense officials said here.

Now you talk about this equipment that they need that they can use. So the U.S. has announced a lot more aid, military aid, including heavy armor and Soviet-era tanks. Tell us what they might be and how they might play into this.

CLARK: Well, of course, we don't have those Soviet-era tanks. Our Polish allies, Bavarian, Czechs, Slovaks, people in Eastern Europe have those tanks, how many do they need? Several hundreds, maybe more.

If you look at what the Russians are prepared to throw against them, it can be as many as another thousand tanks, 2000, 3000 tubes of artillery coming in in Donbas. You can't have 40 tanks against 700 tanks and expect to succeed on this.

The Ukrainians do have some tanks, but they've got to fight. They've got to still protect Kyiv. They've got a problem in the south. They've still got Russians in the south.

In the Donbas area, it may look a little on a mount, but when you're there, that's a big, wide open area. And so we've got to appreciate this.

Christiane, we're having a slight problem. We, the Americans. We've been advising people for years that don't really want to fight. I mean, the Afghans, the Iraqis -- we've tried to train. Before that, the Vietnamese, but these people want to fight. They know how to do it. We've got to listen to them and give them what they need to win.

AMANPOUR: And you know, you raise a good point, General Clark, because frankly nobody thought including U.S. Intelligence that actually the Ukrainians would be able to hold out and would have the heart to fight.

[18:10:07]

AMANPOUR: So you're right. I mean, these people have actually shown what they are willing and capable of doing, and I hear you saying has to be defeated. We talked to the General Hodges last hour who said, "This is the moment to break the back of the Russian military machine." And in terms of the Russians who say that looking at a May, early May victory. What is it going to take them right now? Do you think it's possible to break that back, as you say, in several weeks, or is it going to take a long time?

CLARK: It depends on the rate of resupply and the rate of the provision of this heavy equipment that we can get into Ukraine.

They've got lots of troops. They've got a lot of people who aren't well-equipped, who know how to use this equipment. They're very technologically savvy, they can take our equipment and rewire it and make it work better than it works for us, some of our counter battery radars, for example. So we're not dealing with a third world country here, but we are dealing with a country that doesn't have its own defense establishment, and it's critically relied on us.

They believe they're fighting for us, and I believe that, too.

Ukraine is the toughest opponent Russia will have to fight. If it gets through Ukraine, NATO and these countries in the frontline, don't have the experience. They don't have the size of the forces. They don't have the same population. This is for all the marbles here in Ukraine. This is the future of the international system.

I think the United States has come to realize this. We've just got to break the log jam in getting them the full array of equipment they need and not prejudging it and thinking we know better than they do. We probably don't, not on this battlefield.

AMANPOUR: It's remarkable and the stakes, as you say are so massively high. General Clark, thank you for joining us.

And still to come after a break, a church in a small Ukrainian town has become a temporary home for refugees fleeing Russia's attacks. How they made the daring escape. That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:22]

AMANPOUR: Ukraine says more than 4,000 people were evacuated through humanitarian corridors today, but with Russian attacks making it hard to keep the corridors open, some refugees are finding their way to safety through more unconventional methods.

CNN's Ben Wedeman joins me now. Ben, what are you learning about how some of these poor people are actually getting out of the way of the fighting?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, we were in town about an hour's drive from Mykolaiv where we found some drivers who are transporting civilians from behind Russian lines and they're using the hunger of Russian soldiers to their advantage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE singing in foreign language.)

WEDEMAN (voice over): "Everything will be all right," he sings, "For every one of us." Words of comfort for those desperately in need.

Popular singer and former lawmakers, Sviatus Lavakurchuk (ph) goes from village to village with a simple message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just be glad. Smile.

WEDEMAN (voice over): This church in the village of Bashtanka is now home, temporary home for those who have managed to flee Russian- occupied territory.

Volunteering in the kitchens Svetlana Lyashuk finds peace, but not peace of mind.

(SVETLANA LYASHUK speaking in foreign language.)

WEDEMAN (voice over): "It's really hard," says Svetlana. "People here are very nice, but I just want to go home."

Vitaly Butuchel, a mechanic in peacetime now runs a complex operation feeding and housing the displaced.

VITALY BUTUCHEL, VOLUNTEER: This all make us like a family very closer.

WEDEMAN (voice over): The church feels like an oasis of the ordinary far from the madness outside.

Early evening and a bus approaches marked "deti" Russian for children. Alas, no guarantee of safety.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.) WEDEMAN (voice over): It's coming from the town of Snihurivka under

Russian control. But it didn't pass through a humanitarian corridor negotiated by the Red Cross.

WEDEMAN (on camera): The arrangement whereby these people are able to get out of the Russian occupied areas to hear is very simple.

The men on the bus give Russian soldiers food and cigarettes and the Russian soldiers let them pass.

WEDEMAN (voice over): Larisa Shevchenko made it out, but remains tormented by fear for those who couldn't get away.

(LARISA SHEVCHENKO speaking in foreign language.)

WEDEMAN (voice over): "Everything is really bad," she says. Her parents in Snihurivka are still hiding out in the basement. She hopes they'll get out tomorrow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (on camera): And what we're hearing from the people who are getting off these buses is that in the towns occupied by Russian forces, Russian troops are basically looting stores, breaking into people's homes.

There doesn't seem to be any attempt even to establish any order, and many of the people said that it doesn't even appear that they plan to stay there for very long, but the soldiers are simply taking advantage of their absolute power to take what they can -- Christiane.

[18:20:03]

AMANPOUR: Ben, the absolute power but also a slight desperation, I mean, do they just not have -- they're not being supplied by their own Commanders and their own logistics?

WEDEMAN: Yes, it seems that, I mean, for instance, this whole arrangement, I mean, these buses go back and forth inside Russian territory several times a day, and when they go back into Russian territory, they are taking food to distribute to people inside, and it seems to be fairly open. And what makes it possible is the fact that these Russian soldiers, they want cigarettes, they want food, and perhaps they're sharing it with their fellow soldiers inside.

There does seem to be the sense that they're not doing well and they're doing it sort of the old fashioned way as we saw 200 years ago, when a conquering army would live off to the best of their ability, the land rather, than bring their supplies with them -- Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Incredible. Ben Wedeman, thank you so much.

And still ahead, Vladimir Putin appears to be changing the minds of some in his country as more Russians now rally behind the Ukraine invasion. So is this the work of Russian propaganda? We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:47]

AMANPOUR: Vladimir Putin has launched his war and he has been very busy selling it to his people. Russian airwaves are clogged with propaganda, and the Kremlin has passed laws making it difficult to report on this unprovoked invasion much less criticize it.

Joining me now are Angela Stent, Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution and the author of "Putin's World." Plus, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine John Herbst.

Welcome to the program. Can I ask you, Angela Stent, because you know, you've really dug into, I guess, Putinism, as well as the man himself. What do you make of how it is going down in Russia? Are you seeing anything other than, you know, acceptance, and sort of a rallying around the flag, so to speak there?

ANGELA STENT, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Well, Putin has sold this very successfully, by appealing to Nazism, right, he is saying, this is like World War Two when we defeated the Nazis, and now we're defeating the Nazis in Ukraine. And those Russians who oppose the war, many of them have left, I think over 200,000 people have left, there are obviously people who remain in Russia who do oppose it.

But you know, he has an 83 percent popularity rating, almost as high as it was after the annexation of Crimea, and I have to say, there are some Russians who have relatives in Ukraine, their relatives tell them what's really happening, they don't believe it, they don't want to believe it. They want to buy into this myth that Russia is strong, that after all the humiliation as they see it, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the West is out to get them as Putin tells them, they're finally strong again.

So I have to say, even if some Russians knew the truth, they would still support this war, because they think it's Russians revenge against the West for what's happened in the last 30 years.

AMANPOUR: And we're actually seeing images now where that famous Z -- the letter Z or Zed -- is being put on various places in Russia, we understand, sometimes, you know, on critics' doors and in windows, but it's incredibly prominent now.

So Ambassador Herbst, do you think this skyrocketing popularity of Putin is real? Or is it because people don't dare say anything else, particularly in the midst of a war, when pollsters come knocking?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: I'm a bit more skeptical. I don't think the Russian people are fools. And when someone they don't know, ask them either at the door on the phone, if they support President Putin's Special Military Operation Ukraine, they look around when they know that there's only one answer that is acceptable. And it is true these reports, we have seen real of Russians listening to their relatives in Ukraine and not believing it.

But as Angela said, maybe they don't want to believe it, because they don't like the consequences. So this is a very flimsy house of cards that Putin has built with his information system, which could easily come crashing down, especially as the extensive Russian casualties become known.

AMANPOUR: So just to pursue that with you, quickly, Ambassador, what about this whole notion that he is isolated? That he is being you know, not told the truth? He completely miscalculated everything, maybe he doesn't even know what's happening on the battlefield. Do you actually think that's possible that he might not know how bad things are going?

HERBST: I think it is plausible for the following reason. I talked to many people who've had access to the Kremlin, and I would say over the past six or seven years, they all tell roughly the following story. That, you know, 15 to 20 years ago, there were people around Putin who were more or less his equals, his peers, and he listened to them.

But as early as say, you know, 2013-2014, after he came back to the presidency in 2012, he set things up, they removed a lot of those peers, and the even folks who are close to him think carefully about what they tell him because he wants to hear something, and they don't want to disappoint him. So the notion he is not well-informed, I think is a plausible one.

AMANPOUR: Angela Stent, I've spoken to foreign leaders who tell me that they tell Putin what is going on, but he comes back at them with all sorts of I guess, conspiracy theories and his own agenda and ideology talks about terrorists, and you know, extremists inhabiting Mariupol for instance.

[18:30:16]

A lot of people have posited that his real aim, his real ideology right now is about reconstructing empire, not the Soviet Union, but the idea of empire or at least dependencies. What do you think? What do you think is his motivating purpose right now?

STENT: Well, he said in 2005, famously, that the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. He has been determined to reverse that in some form, not reconstruct the Soviet Union but certainly rebuild part of the Russian Empire.

Ukraine was supposed to be the first step on the way, first of all, to create a new Slavic union between Russia, Belarus and Ukraine, and then possibly move further westward and recreate a sphere of influence in Central and Eastern Europe. He really wants to reverse the results of the Soviet collapse to revisit the settlement that was agreed upon in 1991. That's his ultimate aim.

Of course, it's going much more difficult for him in Ukraine than he thought, but he has broader ambitions than just 'swallowing Ukraine'.

AMANPOUR: And to both of you, let me ask you, first Ambassador, we got a short time left. Do you think that there's any mileage in what the Ukrainians keep saying and that they want to direct face-to-face between the two presidents? I mean, Putin has said no, do you think he - I mean, does he consider Zelenskyy His equal? I mean, he's very dismissive.

JOHN HERBST, FMR. U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: No. He consider Zelenskyy to be clearly subordinate to him. I now I understand why Zelenskyy wants it, but I don't think there's going to be anything that comes of it. Putin will have to understand at some point that his military ambitions in Ukraine were a failure, at which point real negotiations, not the show we've seen thus far, might begin.

AMANPOUR: And last word to you, Angela Stent, what do you think? Can you see any room for negotiation?

STENT: Well, not at the moment. The Russians aren't serious about it and what - and the Kremlin keeps saying that nothing has progressed there. Maybe down the road, there will be but that will only be when the Russians realize that they their military defeat is imminent or at least they're not doing nearly as well as they wanted to. They're not ready for real negotiations now.

AMANPOUR: Interesting the U.S. intelligence says that they think Russia is aiming for an early May victory somewhere in the east, which who I've just been told corresponds to Victory Day back in World War II. Angela Stent, Ambassador John Herbst, thank you very much, indeed, for joining me.

Now, still ahead, dysfunctional and demoralized. New intelligence indicates that some Russian soldiers are refusing to carry out orders, some even lying to Vladimir Putin. Now, the West could be using that against him. We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:37:45]

AMANPOUR: Now, the U.S. and its allies are using a different tactic to fight President Putin. They are using intelligence as a weapon. And officials this week chose to declassify several damaging and damning reports about how misinformed, dysfunctional and demoralized Putin's army really is.

CNN National Security Analyst Steve Hall is joining me now. Steve, welcome to the program. You have so much experience being former CIA, Russia being your area of expertise. Does this ring true to you the idea that even now in global communications with everything out there in real time that the president can be misinformed about what's happening on the battlefield that he started?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's really difficult to say, Christiane, with regard to what's going on inside the Kremlin. It's an incredibly byzantine type of structure. And I think most of us are familiar with staff meetings, we all sit around the table in our western backgrounds and try to speak openly with one another. And that's, of course, not at all what it's like in Moscow and in the Kremlin.

Vladimir Putin will say whatever he needs to say to get his point across his subordinates, I think pick up on that and know that they need to say to him what he needs to hear unless they want to risk something terrible. But Putin is a smart guy. He's a former KGB officer himself. And so he's got to try to wire those individuals, even if they're sitting around the table, supposedly helping him understand what's going on his intelligence officers. He has to have penetrations inside of the people that are in the room to try to best understand what's going on.

So it's a really convoluted mixed up situation. They're difficult to say what he's really understanding what his intelligence people are actually telling him.

AMANPOUR: So what about in the last couple of hours, U.S. officials of intelligence has basically said that they believe that he has set his next target or his new target on the Donbas in the east and on consolidating winning there, maybe to the south as well by early May. And then I was reminded by one of our guests that May 9th is the day they celebrate every year of the end of the Great Patriotic War.

[18:40:04]

They've been doing that since, obviously, the end of World War II, it's a major date for them. Is that even possible? Do you think that given what you've seen unfold on the ground over the last six plus weeks that they could secure that kind of victory in that period?

HALL: It doesn't seem likely that they're able to get anything close to the type of victory that Putin has promised, not only Russians, but that he's been promised also by his military. So it's difficult to imagine how that could happen. What's not at all difficult to imagine, is Putin's propaganda machine and his misinformation and disinformation operations, basically, lauding the fact that, yes, that's what's happened.

Because, of course, as your previous guests were indicating, the vast majority of Russians get no other information aside from what Vladimir Putin's government gives them and so it would be a relatively simple matter for them to say, yes, we have captured - fill in the blank - large portions of the eastern part of the country, the entirety of the Donbas, Kyiv itself, whatever he wants to make up, the Russian people are going to believe what he says and that I think is a good deal more important to him than what the international community actually thinks and indeed knows.

AMANPOUR: And what he actually might have or not have on the battlefield. I mean, he started this with a maximalist goal, he still apparently spouts his mass maximalist demands to any of these international interlocutors. And he might get to hear what he wants to hear, but what about when the mothers start complaining about where are their children or what about when the bodies start coming back? Can you close yourself off to that even in that kind of dictatorship for a significant period of time? HALL: Yes. It's a fascinating issue, because look at what's happened

just around the world and just really the last couple of years. So in this country and other Western democracies, you've had this call for - police warn body cameras to make sure that the police are not up to no good. You have everybody basically walking around with a TV camera, essentially in their pocket in the form of their cell phones.

And so you are seeing firsthand, I think in a way that we really haven't seen before, some amazing images, photography, a lot of cases, audio as well. And that is something that that Putin will not be able to filter, not only from his own population, but really from himself as completely as he could say just a few years ago.

Of course, you also allude to the fact of what was really a big problem for the Russians in the Afghan war, which is when the body bags started coming home and you had the formation of these groups like the concern mothers. And so even if the repressive regime, which is extent right now in the Kremlin, represses those organizations in those people.

You are still going to get people in the streets of Moscow families saying, "Have you heard from your son?" "What about your cousin?" "What about your brother?" That sort of thing is extremely difficult to control and I anticipate it's going to cause some real problems for Putin down the road.

AMANPOUR: Right. We already hear anecdotal evidence that those questions are being asked in Russia now. Steve Hall, thank you so much.

And ahead, I speak to a Ukrainian Member of Parliament. She is a mother of three and she's carrying a gun these days. It's next to her heart, what she wants President Putin to know.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:47:52]

AMANPOUR: Today Ukrainian officials urge all citizens living in liberated and safe areas to get back to normal life. The officials say it is important also for the psychological health of this nation. Now, at the beginning of this week here in Kyiv, I met Lesia Vasylenko. She is a member of parliament. She's determined to do just that, get back to normal life. We spoke about Putin's ongoing demands, even as his forces face major setbacks.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

LESIA VASYLENKO, UKRAINIAN MP: One country cannot declare itself more sovereign than another country and Russia tried to do just that. They decided that their sovereignty is more important and is bigger than the sovereignty of Ukraine. So they said to us, "You cannot join NATO." Before in 2014, they said you cannot join the EU. We have eight years of war and an escalation of atrocities over the last 34 days.

We cannot go for that compromise, because that compromise to Putin would also mean a compromise of the general framework of defense and security of the world. Giving in to dictators means incentivizing them to grab more land and to make more ridiculous demands. And that's not just how it's going to work. This place is all about freedom and Ukraine will continue to fight for its own freedom, and for the freedom of all nations across the world.

AMANPOUR: Lesia, we spoke before I got here and in the first week of the war, and you said we are going to fight and everybody will do too but nobody knew that you would put up such a resistance you and your country and your president. It's really surprised the world and Putin obviously.

VASYLENKO: Yes. Three days they gave us right Putin thought he would be here in a matter of hours. But then here we are, 34 days, Ukraine is still standing, Kyiv is beautiful, a fortress now, quite changed, but still standing and we will continue to do so. The difference is that we are fighting for our existence. We are fighting for our lives and for our families and this is what drives us. I'm not a military expert, not at all.

[18:49:59]

But I've read somebody commenting from the military side saying that the morale of the troops is always three times more important than the actual physical, the actual numbers of the troops. So sometimes it's 200 people, who can take on 200,000 Just because they have a cause and we have a cause for sure.

AMANPOUR: How long though do you think this resistance, this spirit this morale will last? Do you ever see a day when maybe Putin reinforces, maybe the ground battle goes better than it's going now?

VASYLENKO: We don't think about those in those terms in Ukraine. We know that we are doing this for our very survival and when the survival instinct kicks in, people can do amazing things, people become superheroes, and this is what you're witnessing in Ukraine. And at the end of the day, I hope that the West will wake up and get their - raise colored glasses off and actually start doing something here on the ground.

AMANPOUR: Do you think they still have colored glasses on?

VASYLENKO: I do.

AMANPOUR: About?

VASYLENKO: I do. About the fact that we can solve this in a diplomatic way and that Putin will back off and the reason can be found behind all of this. Well, no, Putin's aggression is of such a level that it can only be hit back by force and the force bigger than its own.

Ukraine is doing fine with all the weapons coming in from the west, but eventually, if we are to get rid of it once and for all, and to make our world a safer place for everyone, and send a strong message to dictators out there as well, then we must unite efforts and the international community must be here on the ground pushing back with us on this aggression.

AMANPOUR: Lesia, when we spoke in the first week of the war. Before I got here, you said, "I've got my machine gun." And you've tweeted that I've also got my manicures.

VASYLENKO: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Your resistance takes many, many forms. And you're actually carrying your pistol right now.

VASYLENKO: I am. I am. I do have my PM with me and I carry it actually with me all the time. It's become my best friend.

AMANPOUR: And as we speak, we can hear the multiple--

VASYLENKO: Yes.

AMANPOUR: --anti-aircraft or anti-missile batteries going on.

VASYLENKO: Yes. Yes. But to be honest, it's - yes, it's small, it's compact, it's comfortable, you can carry it in the sort of backpack or bag. Also, when I had a big puffy coat, I used to carry it with me like this.

AMANPOUR: And did you ever imagine in your life that as an MP in 2022 in Ukraine, you'd be forced to carry a gun around?

VASYLENKO: No, never. Never. I'm actually very much anti-gun. And this gun caused a lot of problems for me, because in order to recharge it, you have to sort of like do this thing and with the nails, they had very nice, beautiful long nails. It was impossible to do. So they had to come off.

And yes, in order to recharge it, you have to sort of like do this. It's okay, like when you put it back in, but this thing took me a long time to learn how to do especially with the nails, so they came off.

AMANPOUR: And this is government issue, right?

VASYLENKO: It's a government issue.

AMANPOUR: I mean, you've all been issued with self defense.

VASYLENKO: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Self-protection.

VASYLENKO: Yes. Yes.

AMANPOUR: And so the nails, I mean, seriously.

VASYLENKO: Yes.

AMANPOUR: They're all--

VASYLENKO: That's it. They're all gone. They're all gone. I had like - it took me 30 years of my life to grow nails, long nails. I had a very bad habit of biting them, a lot of anxiety and then suddenly, I was able to do that. I had them for about half a year and then this started. So maybe one of the things that I hate Putin for most is that I lost my nails because of that, but at least I learned how to use a gun, so there's pros and cons everywhere.

AMANPOUR: And just so people are clear, the idea of beauty self maintenance is also resistance.

VASYLENKO: Yes. All jokes aside, it's an important element for all women who are fighting alongside demand for care, the women still want to be beautiful, they still want to have dignity as women.

AMANPOUR: And to be human.

VASYLENKO: And human and it's a sign of humanity that you know life is coming back and life is worth living. So actually along with the many cafes which are starting to reopen in Kyiv, the salons are starting to reopen as well. You can get your hair done, you can get your nails done, I have a wonderful manicurist, Yulia (ph), who herself carries a gun and she says my salon is the most secure of them all. I can provide safety for my clients and do the nail.

AMANPOUR: And what message are you sending to the other side when you act like human beings and you're not (inaudible) he basically said, Putin, that Ukraine doesn't exist as a nation. You don't exist as a people.

VASYLENKO: And we say to him life goes on, we carry on living, your war, your fighting against us is in the background now and we'll go on fighting it for as long as we have to, but we will go on living at the same time.

AMANPOUR: Would you shoot somebody with that gun?

VASYLENKO: I would. I would for sure, because it's your way to life. When you hear stories of Russian soldiers kicking doors open, raping the women, killing the man, then you realize that that's the choice you have to make. You sleep with the gun you stay alive. You take it for granted and that's it. You can be a victim.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

[18:55:03]

AMANPOUR: And they won't be victims. That's it for now. Thank you for joining me. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Kyiv. And Erica Hill takes over. CNN NEWSROOM live after a quick break. Have a good night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So we're in a bomb shelter in Odessa and this is where they're making bulletproof vests.