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Horrific Discovery Of Mass Grave Site And Other Atrocities In Bucha, Ukraine; Frustrated Ukrainian Refugees Make Difficult Decision To Return Home; Ukrainian Father Documents Life Inside A War Zone; Interview With Rep. Joaquin Castro (D-TX) About Ukraine War And January 6th Investigation; Trump White House Diarist Talks To House Committee On January 6th. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 03, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:08]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. We are following breaking news, a massacre inside the town of Bucha, Ukraine, as Russian forces withdraw from the Kyiv region. New pictures reveal horrific realities of the Russian occupation.

A warning these images are extremely graphic and difficult to watch. But you have to take a look. The streets of Bucha are filled with bodies, some of them killed execution style. One man's hands tied behind his back, and more bodies have been discovered in a mass grave. Local officials saying up to 300 people could be buried there. A CNN crews today saw this with their own eyes.

And despite this evidence Russia is denying they committed these atrocities claiming the scenes are staged. Ukrainian President Zelenskyy today saying what happened in Bucha is genocide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): When we find people with, with hands tied behind their back and decapitated, such things I don't understand. I don't comprehend. The kids who were killed and tortured, so it wasn't enough just to kill for those criminals.

Indeed. This is genocide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Let's go to CNN's Ed Lavandera who joins us from southern Ukraine in Odessa.

Ed, as you know, CNN teams saw these atrocities committed in Bucha firsthand, yet Russia is claiming these reports are fake and staged. What more can you tell us about what was found in Bucha? I mean, obviously this has the potential to really get the world's attention if people have been paying attention up until this point, they really should be paying attention now because what was witnessed there in Bucha is just absolutely unspeakable. ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: And it really kind of

highlights the need for on-the-ground reporting to be able to uncover what has happened in many of these regions that have been impossible to access because of the ongoing war. But now as Russian forces have retreated to the north it's beginning to reveal the atrocities that have unfolded in the last month.

And as you mentioned, Jim, a CNN team reaching the suburb of Bucha, seeing a mass grave with possibly 150 bodies, the mayor of that city says that there's a potential for those graves to hold at least 300 people. This, of course, will take some time to continue vetting and going through to really grasp the magnitude of what has happened. And remember this is just one suburb of a large region of northern Ukraine that had been occupied by Russian forces for more than a month.

And we're just now getting a chance to get into these communities, get into these cities, to see and get a sense of what the horrors these people have been living through for this time. President Zelenskyy saying this evening that it is time for the world to see and bring to an end the war crimes that have been committed. That this should be the last vestige of that and this is sparking a great deal of outrage as people begin to grasp what has happened here, Jim.

ACOSTA: And Ed, I suppose we should underline that the reason why we're able to see this is because the Ukrainians have retaken some of these areas.

LAVANDERA: Yes. Absolutely. This is-- you know, as I mentioned, these are areas that have been inaccessible for the most part because of the ongoing and the raging war in these communities so this is really our first chance to be able to go into the ground, our CNN teams, into these regions to be able to verify and uncover these stories that will begin to manifest.

And you can imagine, given the large amount of territory that Russian forces have occupied for more than a month and how many villages and suburbs and communities that they had occupied that this could be a seen that continues to play out for days.

ACOSTA: All right, Ed Lavandera, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

And with me now is retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, the former commanding general of U.S. Army Europe and Seventh Army, and retired Army Brigadier General Peter Zwack, the former senior U.S. defense attache to the Russian Federation.

General Hertling, I have to ask you about these horrific images that we're getting from Bucha. Mass graves we were just showing this a few moments ago. I know it's Sunday evening for families, but dead bodies in the street, dead bodies with hands tied behind their back. Just unspeakable images. This is just a level of brutality.

I wonder did you expect to see this level of brutality when these areas were retaken?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I did actually, Jim. Not to this degree, though, truthfully.

[18:05:02]

I mean, I have to react to Ed's comment or your comment that the Russians have said these scenes are staged. It actually seems to be completely in line with the other things Putin and his generals have done throughout this campaign that's over a month long in attacking civilian targets, bombing schools, targeting shelters. Not caring if they kill women, children, old men. And the world has seen Russian forces do this in other places with similar results. The shoot down of MH-17, attacks in the Donbas and Chechnya, in Syria, happily at the behest of the dictator Bashar al-Assad.

Jim, what I'd say is anyone, you know, we in the miliary, the U.S. military are trained on the laws of land warfare, and they prohibit the willful killing, torture, pillage, rape, looting, or inhumane treatment, which are all defined by law of captured combatants or civilians. We have seen the Russian forces under the direction of Putin and his generals commit all of those crimes. And anyone who orderly or deliberately commits these kind of crimes is responsible for war crime and should be held accountable by the Hague and the ICC.

ACOSTA: And General Zwack, I want you to weigh in on what the Russians are saying, you know, accusing the Ukrainians of staging this, faking this. I have to assume as dispassionate as you guys can sometimes be when you come on and do these interviews with us, this has to make your blood boil. It makes my blood boil to hear the Russians say this sort of thing. I mean, how is it that the Ukrainians are going to stage these kinds of atrocities and this level of devastation? I mean, it's ridiculous.

BRIG. GEN. PETER ZWACK (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Jim, I'm quietly seething. This is -- I went back and reviewed the Geneva Convention and the International Criminal Tribunal linked to the Hague, and the Russians are basically just playing -- just conducting all of the things that whether a state level aggression down to the atrocities to civilians and wanton destruction of villages and towns that -- they've done it all.

So, yes, I am definitely seething on this. Trying to stay -- I want to see the world now, not just the West, and I want to see those fence- sitting nations now that abstained in the United Nations become outraged about this. I think of India, I think of Brazil, I think of South Africa and many others, and the United Nations and organizations have got to now put their mettle forward and not ultimately be seen like the League of Nations was before World War II that felt it helped rein in Adolf Hitler and the dictators of that time.

ACOSTA: Right. And General Hertling, Bucha is just outside of Kyiv. And U.S. intel assesses that the Russian military is shifting its focus to the south and the east, at least that's what they're picking up on at this point. As the Russian troops move, do you think we're going to see more atrocities like this and other cities, and to jump off of what General Zwack was saying a few moments ago, doesn't that escalate the conversation?

Doesn't that take the conversation to a different level where the international community is really duty bound to do more?

HERTLING: Jim, I think, to answer your first question, yes, we will see more of this. In fact, you know, you and I were having this discussion last week, last Sunday, where we said we are going to see increasingly the reports of these kinds of war crimes as the Russians depart the area and the civilians are allowed to speak of the horrors that they've been through.

This is just one area. This is just Kyiv and the suburbs surrounding it. When we get to Kharkiv, when Mariupol is liberated, Mykolaiv, name the city, you're going to see these kinds of things. We're already getting reports of mass rapes of both women and children by Russian forces. The commanders know these things. So like General Zwack, I'm furious about this.

The American army has had instances, minor instances, of a few soldiers committing war crimes or accidental shelling or targeting of villages. But in every instance there are people, you know, held accountable. In this case, this case, they are -- the Russians are doing this purposely. It is part of their campaign plan of terror. And to answer your second question, I believe, yes, there is certainly going to be the potential for a greater reaction by the West, as Peter just said.

[18:10:06]

There are going to be a lot of people seething about this. But I think one of the things we have to do is continue -- you know, I firmly believe that the president, President Biden and other national leaders have actually war gamed this, if you will, have prepared the reaction to these kinds of things, and I think we're going to see additional action taken by the West and by NATO.

I'm not sure what those actions are going to be but I think it's going to be very detrimental to Mr. Putin and he will no longer be able to stand on any world stage in the future.

ACOSTA: And General Zwack, we're also hearing from two former --

(CROSSTALK)

ZWACK: One other point on your question. Will the Russians continue to do this? It's what they do. It's the disinformation. It's the whole -- it's everything we saw. They are going to -- of course they're going to transmit to their population that this is a lie and this is Ukrainian, because they are so out of line and they know that if they can't sell their population, they're ultimately going to go down.

ACOSTA: And I was going to say, you know, we're also hearing from two former Ukrainian prisoners of war. Let's listen to that and get your quick reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): At first they took us very aggressively and made us shout, glory to Russia. And whoever didn't want to do that they used physical measures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They hit me in the face with machine gun butts and kicked me. My front teeth were also chipped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And General Zwack, I mean, these two prisoners were part of a group that were exchanged during negotiations between Russia and Ukraine. There are international rules about treatment of POWs. I suppose, you know, again, shocked but not surprised that the Russians are behaving this way with their prisoners.

ZWACK: Yes, I mean, it's just ugly all around and the way things are emerging, God forbid, those prisoners were lucky, I would hate to say, based on what we're seeing. We are now in a phase and the world is watching. Russians devolving even more this conflict into something ferocious of the type you would have seen in the eastern front in 1941 to 1945 which was just unbelievably horrific warfare. And we may be on the front edge as we go into a new phase in Donbas.

ACOSTA: All right --

HERTLING: And, Jim, if I can add, we had the cataloging of these crimes in these cities. Now with those first-hand accounts, with the shaved head of that woman, with the accounts of being beaten by those prisoners, that is firsthand accounts, the kind of which that were offered for the Nuremberg trials in the late 1940s. I think Russia has got a lot to pay for in these things.

ACOSTA: No question about it. All right, Generals Mark Hertling, Pete Zwack, thank you very much, gentlemen. We appreciate it.

And coming up, almost 4.2 million refugees have left Ukraine fleeing the war. But some are now returning to the war-torn country. Why they are making that difficult decision, that's next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:17:33]

ACOSTA: In the 39 days since Russia's brutal and unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, the U.N. Refugee Agency estimates that more than four million people have fled that country and their homes. Of that number nearly 2.5 million have crossed the border into Poland. But now some frustrated refugees are making the difficult decision to risk it all and go back home to Ukraine.

CNN's senior correspondent Kyung Lah joins us from Warsaw.

Kyung, I can't imagine somebody making this very difficult decision. What are you hearing from folks?

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: What we're hearing and what we're seeing here, Jim, on this platform here in Warsaw is something that now has become a bit of a familiar image. People who carry their dogs, who have all their belongings with them. They've already loaded them onto the buses. Buses getting ready to head out back into Ukraine. They say they feel they must go home because they can no longer live life as a refugee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAH (voice-over): At the bus station in Warsaw, Poland, the platform is packed. But not with people arriving from Ukraine. They're heading back. The reality of life as a refugee more unbearable than war. Katarina (INAUDIBLE) says after two weeks she's returning to Kyiv.

(On-camera): What is it like trying to live away from home all this time?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So bad. Because you don't know what's wrong with your relatives, with your family.

LAH: It's not a permanent way to live.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

LAH (voice-over): The Polish government says 2.5 million Ukrainians have come in since the war began. As of this weekend 442,000 have gone from Poland back to Ukraine.

Housing is a problem as Poland struggles to absorb the influx of women, children and the elderly. Poland's residents have welcomed Ukrainian families into their homes but living on strange floors and out of bags can only go on for so long.

Poland allows Ukrainians to work and collect government assistance but there's the red tape, standing in long lines with fellow war refugees to file the proper papers. And then there's child care and schooling, trying to raise kids with new language and cultural barriers. Poland wants to help but nearly six weeks into this war, the signs of strain are getting harder to ignore.

[18:20:08]

RAFAL TRZASKOWSKI, MAYOR OF WARSAW, POLAND: The Polish people will welcome Ukrainians whatever happens because they are fighting for our freedom and we do understand that. But of course there is a certain limit, human limit, of what we can do.

LAH (on-camera): When you say you're at capacity, what do you mean?

TRZASKOWSKI: The population of my city has grown almost by 20 percent in a month. So of course it puts an enormous strain on the city, on its services. And we are doing our best. We are welcoming everyone who needs help but, you know, improvisation has to end.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LAH: There are a lot of people on this bus as we've seen throughout the day here at the train station. You see this little child sitting here. The people who are returning to Ukraine are women, parents, generally all women. Some elderly people. The same ones we've seen coming out of Ukraine. And there are now some who are going back in. So these are vulnerable people and they say that they just need to go back even though they may be pregnant because they want to be home -- Jim.

ACOSTA: I certainly understand that, Kyung. That precious girl's face you were showing just a few moments ago, my goodness, just sums up everything that these families are going through. What a great story.

Kyung, thank you so much. Live on the scene for us in Warsaw with the brave Ukrainians trying to get back home. Thank you, Kyung. Appreciate it.

The heartbreaking reality of everyday life amid war in Ukraine including a young infant becoming used to air raid sirens.

Bless his heart. We will have that story, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:26:13]

ACOSTA: Just outside of Ukraine's capital Kyiv, the suburb of Irpin is finally free of Russian troops, but the city lies in ruins, too dangerous for civilians to return.

My next guest made it out of Irpin just before Russian strikes destroyed his apartment building. Since then he's been recording videos of life inside a war zone all while taking care of his infant son.

(ALEX DAYRABEKOV SINGING "YESTERDAY")

ACOSTA: And Alex Dayrabekov joins me now.

Alex, first of all, that was beautiful what you did there for your son. Your son was born just two weeks before the war started. Tell us about how life is going for you right now. Why has it been important for you to document your daily life for the world to see?

ALEX DAYRABEKOV, FATHER OF INFANT, IS STAYING IN UKRAINE: Well, "Yesterday" is the right song for this situation. You know, I've been singing it to my first son, who is 25 years old now, and I sing it to this kid as well. And while I'm singing it now, I really, you know, reflect on it, and I was really shocked and I started crying that, you know, some of the words really are about this situation. And they have and then I used to be. You know. "There's a shadow hanging over me." This is all about the situation now. The life changed completely within this time. Completely.

ACOSTA: Yes. And it makes you think about, if you're a parent, it makes you think about your own kids and how you would be able to handle things going through what you're going through, Alex. And, you know, we just reported about these horrific images coming out of Bucha where Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says people, including children, were tortured and killed, your own city of Irpin lies in ruins. We've seen that video time and again. It's just awful.

What is it like for to you see these reports day after day knowing that you're one of the lucky ones?

DAYRABEKOV: Well, yes, my place is in Bucha, Hostomel, that's where the war actually started from the north, and you know, my heart is tearing into pieces. We were lucky to escape in the first days. I actually evacuated one family but three days later it was already impossible to evacuate, and the people who I know, my neighbors, tried to escape in caravans of cars and they were killed. Civilians with kids, with signs children on the cars, were killed.

You know, there's eyewitnesses. I am now -- I feel like this is my mission to collect those evidences, testimonies, and I help them talk to international lawyers and to give their testimonies. And you know, I'm present at those talks. I really sometimes just -- I can't stop not crying. You know.

ACOSTA: Of course. And what do you have to say to, you know, the Russians, who are claiming that, you know, the images that we're seeing of atrocities are staged and fake and so on?

[18:30:05]

I mean, obviously what they're saying is ludicrous. But from your perspective, what is your response when you hear that sort of thing?

DAYRABEKOV: Nothing. I will tell them nothing. I tried for the first week to talk to my relatives, to the ones who I know in Russia, and they are completely silent. They are completely brainwashed, and I don't want to spend my nerves and energy on that. I'm going to collect the evidences, I'm going to help the victims and the eyewitnesses, and I'm going to do everything possible that the international trials will happen, and those who did it will pay. This is what I'm going to do. But I will not talk to them.

ACOSTA: And you shared another video of how your son has gotten so used to hearing the air sirens going off that he barely reacts anymore. We want to show our viewers that and we'll talk about it after we play it.

(VIDEO CLIP OF DAYRABEKOV'S BABY)

ACOSTA: Alex, what do you think you're going to tell your son about all of this in the future when he -- you know, when he can, I guess, possibly understand what was going on during this terrible, awful time?

DAYRABEKOV: I will tell him that he started his life in the time, in the historic time when the entire country got together against this evil, against this devil, because this is not even a war. It's a massacre. It's a genocide. They came to erase our nation. And everyone is fighting. Everyone is fighting in this country for our country, for our land, and for human values and for freedom. And I'm sure that what is happening now will change the entire history of the country, of Europe, and of the world. ACOSTA: Alex Dayrabekov, our hearts go out to you and your son. And

keep singing as best as you can. That was beautiful, what we heard earlier, and we appreciate your time. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

DAYRABEKOV: Thank you, Jim.

ACOSTA: And our thanks to Alex for that.

Coming up, is Vladimir Putin getting honest information from top aides? U.S. intelligence isn't so sure. I'll talk to a member of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Joaquin Castro, there he is. We'll talk to him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:37:32]

ACOSTA: Vladimir Putin may not even know how badly his troops are doing. That's according to U.S. intelligence which believes Putin's advisers may have not fully informed him about what's really going on on the ground in Ukraine. Pentagon spokesman John Kirby says the idea that Putin is misinformed is concerning to the U.S. and its allies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: If Mr. Putin is misinformed or uninformed about what's going on inside Ukraine, it's his military, it's his war. He chose it. And so the fact that he may not have all the context, that he may not fully understand the degree to which his forces are failing in Ukraine, that's a little discomforting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And Congressman Joaquin Castro joins me now. He's a Democrat from Texas.

Congressman, good to see you. Thanks so much. You sit on the House Intelligence and Foreign Affairs Committees. Do you believe that Putin is misinformed and doesn't know what's going on on the ground in Ukraine? That is a concerning thought, although I have to think that he does know about the atrocities that are occurring. What are your thoughts?

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): It's very likely that Vladimir Putin is existing in an information world that the rest of us, especially in the West, are not. We've seen the stalled Russian military. We've seen the tanks that have been destroyed. We know that the Russian military is in retreat. We know now about what looks like, could be genocide committed in Ukraine by Russians.

But Vladimir Putin over the years, because he's had such a firm hold on Russia and the nation and its people for so long now, has not only surrounded himself with yes-men who tell what he wants to hear. If he wants to hear that they're winning the war, the people under him are so afraid of him that that's what they're going to tell him. He's also set up a media infrastructure that's completely controlled

by the state that's only going to celebrate whatever victories and footage they can pull that shows that Russia is being successful. And so I'm not surprised I saw numbers, for example, that he continues to be very popular in Russia because the people of Russia, number one, they're penalized and imprisoned if they protest, but they're also fed a steady diet of misinformation, disinformation and propaganda by the media infrastructure that Vladimir Putin has set up to convince them and also to convince himself.

ACOSTA: Yes. We were just talking to a Ukrainian father in the previous segment who says he speaks with relatives in Russia and he described them as brainwashed because of exactly what you're talking about.

[18:40:04]

And we're seeing these horrific images coming out of Bucha, Ukraine, and we do want to again warn our viewers these images are disturbing. If you're just tuning in, civilians bodies strewn in the street, mass graves with possibly hundreds of people.

Congressman, I mean, I assume this is something that the Congress is going to have to deal with. What is your reaction?

CASTRO: Well, the United States Congress absolutely should investigate this. There were many of us who sent a letter early on in this invasion to the intelligence community asking them to preserve everything, every piece of information that they have about what happened in this invasion. That's going to be critical. But the United Nations and the International Criminal Court also need to take a look at this.

You look at those images not only are they're horrifying and dehumanizing, and you have images of mass graves, evidence of mass killings, reports of rape, forced deportation, all of these things that suggest or actually are clear evidence that Vladimir Putin is a war criminal and should absolutely be investigated.

ACOSTA: And I want to ask you about the January 6th investigation because there's a lot of criticism of how Attorney General Merrick Garland has handled prosecutions, although he himself has brushed that off. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The only pressure I feel and the only pressure that our line of prosecutors feel is to do the right thing. That means we follow the facts and the law wherever they may lead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And "The New York Times" is now reporting, Congressman, as recently as late last year President Biden confided to his inner circle that he believed former President Trump was a threat to democracy and should be prosecuted, and while the president has never communicated his frustrations directly to Mr. Garland, just quoting from the "Times" here, he has said privately that he wanted Garland to act less like a ponderous judge and more like a prosecutor who's willing to take decisive action.

What do you think? Is Merrick Garland going fast enough if these concerns, if they're being reported accurately by "The New York Times," have no reason to doubt that? Do you share some of the president's frustration if, in fact, he is as frustrated as he sounds?

CASTRO: Yes, if that reporting is accurate, I agree with the president. And look, I think many people believe that Merrick Garland is a good person with a good heart, with a good head on his shoulders. But so far Merrick Garland is failing the United States of America.

How many crimes does somebody have to commit to get prosecuted in this country, at least investigated by the Department of Justice? Whether it was the efforts to not allow for the certification of the election, putting pressure on election officials in Georgia, putting pressure on Mike Pence, the possible obstruction of justice or at least worth an investigation about what happened in that gap where we can't find his phone calls.

Even if you go back before that, taking money from his own charity, issues with his taxes. I mean, all of these things in different areas of the law you would think that the Department of Justice would take up at least one of those things, and it's just shocking at this point that the attorney general and the Department of Justice have failed this badly and, you know, obviously Donald Trump is a clear threat to American democracy.

And for the attorney general and for the Department of Justice to just sit there and do nothing while we watch this in real time is just shocking.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Failure is a strong word.

CASTRO: Yes. They've failed the country. They have allowed Donald Trump to go to commit these acts without consequence. Again, Jim, you know, I'm talking about prosecute. As far as we can tell there's not even investigations on these things. Just investigations. That, to me, is shocking.

ACOSTA: All right, Congressman Joaquin Castro, thanks very much for coming on with us. We appreciate it.

CASTRO: Thanks.

ACOSTA: Coming up, what a White House diarist told the January 6th Committee about former President Trump and the days leading up to the January 6th attack at the Capitol.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:48:47]

ACOSTA: We have new details in the January 6th investigation. Sources tell CNN Donald Trump's presidential diarist testified to the House Select Committee that in the days before the riot White House officials started providing fewer details about Trump's calls and meetings. CNN also learning there was significantly less information being shared with White House record keepers who were basically iced out.

From one source, this is according to our reporting, the last day that normal information was sent was the 4th. So starting the 5th the diarist didn't receive the annotated calls and notes. This was a dramatic departure. This is all out of the ordinary.

And I want to bring in CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin. And Jeffrey, you know, this seems to fit into a pattern. One day we're hearing about Trump flushing documents down the toilet or borrowing the cell phones of aides and so on. How significant might this be what this diarist is saying?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's all, as you say, part of a pattern, Jim. But the key issue here as far as I'm concerned as an investigative matter is that the January 6th committee and, as far as I know, the Justice Department, does not yet have an insider who can explain what was really going on with all of this. All of this is suspicious. You know, were did the documents go at Mar-a-Lago?

[18:50:03]

Why were documents apparently hidden? Why were the records not kept correctly at the White House? All of that is suspicious, but until you have an insider, until you have a modern-day equivalent of a John Dean who can say, look, we knew that what we were doing was wrong. It's all just suggestive and it's very hard to prove anything untoward that was going on.

ACOSTA: And I doubt very much that Jared Kushner is the John Dean in all of this, but just a few moments ago, we were talking with Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of the January 6th Committee and she was talking about Kushner's testimony before the committee for some six hours last week last week. And she said that Kushner was not combative with his answers, he was precise. I wonder what you make of that, Jeffrey?

TOOBIN: Well, it's very hard to know in the abstract.

ACOSTA: Yes.

TOOBIN: I mean, I think, to Kushner's credit that unlike so many people around Donald Trump, he's at least showing up and answering questions of the January 6th Committee, but it's really hard to evaluate his answers without knowing what they are. You know, the fact that he was precise can mean a lot of different things and I wouldn't want to speculate exactly but it is good that he answered questions, and we'll see if there's anyone there. And I agree with you, Kushner is unlikely to be that person who will simply say, look, all of this that was going on was wrong.

ACOSTA: Right. And, you know, Jeff, the committee will seek an interview with Ginny Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. I have sort of dying to get your take on all of this because of these text messages that Ginni Thomas sent to then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, including this one, "Do not concede, it takes time for the army who is gathering for his back."

What do you think Ginni Thomas could offer and, I mean, your -- just overall view on, you know, does this matter? What about the refrain that you hear from some on the right that, you know, the wife of the Supreme Court justice ought to be able to believe whatever she wants to believe even if it's a fantasy?

TOOBIN: See, I look at it from the Supreme Court perspective, because, you know, that's what I've been covering for all these years.

ACOSTA: Right.

TOOBIN: And it is completely outrageous that Justice Thomas, Clarence Thomas, continues to sit on cases relating to January 6th when his wife was so intimately involved in the planning for the protest if not the insurrection. You know, the Supreme Court has exempted itself from the ethics rules that apply to all the other federal judges. If Clarence Thomas were on the appeals court or on the district court, there would be no question he would have to recuse himself and he would be subject to discipline if he didn't.

But because the Supreme Court is off limits by its own decision he can do what he wants. And I just think it brings discredit on the Supreme Court. Yes, it's true, she is entitled to have whatever public career she wants. She's entitled to believe all these lunatic conspiracy theories that she was spouting with Mark Meadows, but Clarence Thomas is not, should not be ruling on cases when his wife is intimately involved in the underlying facts.

ACOSTA: And what about all this pressure on the Attorney General, Merrick Garland to get going with the January 6th investigation, bring some indictments? We just had Joaquin Castro, congressman from Texas on a few moments ago, who said that the attorney general failed. That -- his words, that the attorney general has failed in this investigation.

TOOBIN: I think that's a very premature judgment. In the first place, I think there's more of an investigation of the White House and the people directly around the president than many people believe. Rudy Giuliani is actively under investigation. Remember, there was a search warrant for all his electronics. That is a very significant fact I think that a lot of people forget.

You know, the Justice Department does not announce when it is conducting an investigation. I think there is an active investigation of everything related to January 6th and I think the attorney general is right not to broadcast what he's doing in advance. Let's see if there are cases. I really just think it is unfair and certainly premature to announce that Attorney General Garland has failed when this investigation, which is a complex, big investigation, already involving hundreds of defendants, is still in its middle stages.

ACOSTA: All right, Jeffrey Toobin, great to see. Thanks so much.

TOOBIN: All right, Jim.

[18:55:00]

ACOSTA: And coming up, horrific images out of Bucha, Ukraine. Mass graves, dead bodies strewn across streets, people killed execution style. But will the West respond? That is the key question tonight.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington, and we are following breaking news on a horrific discovery in Bucha, Ukraine, as Russian troops abandoned northern parts of Ukraine.