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National Security Adviser Gives Update On War In Ukraine; Sullivan: Russia Revising War Aims To Focus On Eastern Ukraine; Zelenskyy: Russia Attack About Destruction, Extermination Of A Nation; Sacramento Police Arrest One Suspect In Deadly Mass Shooting; Zelenskyy: Very Difficult To Negotiate With Russia After Atrocities. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired April 04, 2022 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you take on Former President Trump, he said at "Save America" rallies" who are -- he's decrying the Biden administration, decrying the response that you all and the White House have been given to this war in Ukraine. He said if he was in here in office, he would do it better. It wouldn't happen under him. What is are you response to the former President, Donald J. Trump saying these things about the current administration?

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: I don't have a response to the former president. We are focused on getting the job done. Getting the support to the Ukrainian people that they need and applying unprecedented pressure to the Russian economy and building a form of Western unity that no one could reasonably have expected and that we have sustained through the early weeks of the war and will sustain for the period ahead. And I'll leave the commentary on what the former president said to others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks, Jake. To follow up on what you said about Ukraine setting terms for any potential resolution, President Zelenskyy said on "Face the Nation," that with regard to any peace agreement the important thing in this agreement are security guarantees. But he also said the U.S. has not provided any yet. Is the U.S. considering that and what would that look like?

SULLIVAN: So, we are in regular contact. And by regular, I mean near daily contact. I'm personally in near daily contact with my counterpart in the Ukrainian government. And we are talking constantly about how we can support a negotiated solution that defends Ukraine sovereignty and territorial integrity. And we have told them that we are prepared to do our part to support that. Including by ensuring that Ukraine has the means to defend itself in the future. I'm not going to get into the specifics of what those negotiations are because I believe it's very important that they have a protected space to be able to be carried out. But you can rest assure that the United States is actively working in consultation with Ukrainians to support their efforts at the peace table.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then a question on the sanctions. You just said that you're under no illusion that Russia will adjust its target. So, what function will an additional sanctions package have when you announce it?

SULLIVAN: So, I would say two things about the sanctions. One is that sanctions are intended to impose cost so that Russia cannot carry on these grotesque acts without paying a severe price for it. The other is to have an effect on Russia's behavior over time. But as President Biden has made clear repeatedly, we don't expect that that shift in behavior will because by sanctions overnight or in a week. It will take time to grind down the elements of Russian power within the Russian economy, to hit their industrial base hard, to hit the sources of revenue that have propped up this war and have propped up the kleptocracy in Russia. That's going to take some time to play out. But there's no better time than now to be working at that so that the costs and up setting in and that ends up sharpening Russia's choices. So, sanctions are not alone going to solve any of these problems but they are a critical tool in ultimately producing a better outcome to this conflict than would otherwise be produced.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have the revelations about Bucha prompted the administration and its allies to reconsider what kind of military assistance they would provide to Ukraine? Are tanks now part of, you know, the potential transfers that can be provided to the Ukrainian military?

SULLIVAN: So, I'm not going to get into certain specifics systems. Because as I said at the outset, there are operational sensitivities and sensitivities of our allies and partners for why we wouldn't speak about a particular capability like tanks. But I will say this, even before Bucha, the United States was working with the Ukrainians on every item on its priority list and how we could go ahead and ensure that that could be provided to them.

The only capability that we have discussed with them where there's been a difference in perspective that has been played out in living color and this podium many times over has been the question of direct facilitation from a U.S. air base in Germany in the contested air space over Ukraine and MiG-29s. Otherwise, before Bucha, we were working with them on a wide range of capabilities, including some capabilities that people here writing we weren't prepared to provide. That wasn't right.

Now it's hard for me to correct the record in every case. Because for very good reasons, some of these systems, we cannot advertise. We cannot talk to you about. But what I want to make clear as I said at the outset is the extent and depth of effort to acquire and transfer a variety of advanced weapons capabilities is extraordinary. It is unprecedented and it has been ongoing from well before the terrible images?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then a question on criminal court. Is one the reasons why the U.S. considered alternate venues because the U.S. is not signatory? And is that undercut the U.S. push to hold Putin accountable with the war crimes trial.

[15:35:00]

As to a time when the U.S. not a signatory of the International Criminal Court?

SULLIVAN: The U.S. has been in the past been able to collaborate with the International Criminal Court and other context, despite not being a signatory. But there's a variety of reasons one might consider alternative venues as well beyond the specific relationship between the U.S. and the ICC. Most importantly, this is not a decision the United States will make by itself. We're not going to make the call out of Washington for the appropriate venue for accountability. That is going to be done in consultation with allies and with partners around the world and I don't want to prejudge those conversations. They're ongoing. What I can communicate is the very real sustained and committed proposition that the United States has that we are going to ensure there is accountability. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The U.S. has rejected Poland's plan for a peace keeping force to protect civilian. Is that something that's being considered given what we've seen of these atrocities. And is there any talk among the allies to do some sort of (INAUDIBLE) to protect the civilian population.

SULLIVAN: So, I don't quite accept the premise of the question. There had various peacekeeping proposals floated. None of them have ever been given full shape or been kind of formally put forward and suggested should actually be implemented. And so, we continue to consult with our allies and partners including Poland on what makes sense going forward.

We have not yet seen a proposal that actually has been flushed out that could be operationalized. The one thing that United States has made clear throughout this is that it is not our intention to send U.S. soldiers to fight Russian soldiers in Ukraine. But in terms of the supply of capabilities, in terms of other steps to support the Ukrainians and to do our best to protect civilians in Ukraine. We continue to look at every possible option including in consultation with our partners on that.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, we've been listening there to Jake Sullivan talking, the National Security Advisor, talking about what their assessment is today of the situation in Ukraine.

So, joining us to talk about all of this, and help us analyze it, we have CNN senior correspondent Ed Lavandera. He's in Odessa, Ukraine. CNN senior White House correspondent Phil Mattingly and CNN senior military analyst retired Col. Cedric Leighton.

And Colonel, I want to start with you because the assessment sounded more definitive than it has at some points in the past. Basically, what we heard Jake Sullivan saying there is that it is their assessment that the Russians have basically their -- their kind of redeploying to the eastern and southern region of Ukraine, moving away from Kyiv. But that they expect the Russians to continue launching missiles on cities outside of the eastern and southern region, meaning Kyiv, Lviv to continue causing economic destruction and terror in Ukraine. What did you hear that was significant?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Alisyn, that's right. And the other thing that I heard significant is that Jake Sullivan used the term retreat when describing the Russian movement of troops. So, it's not a redeployment, you know, not a refurbishment or any other term but a retreat -- according to the White House. And you know, I think that's a very important distinction that he made there. So, what the U.S. is doing is they're painting this Russian action as an actual military defeat for the Russians in a Ukrainian victory. So, that has significant impact I think both diplomatically as well as militarily. And it also has an impact on the morale of the Ukrainians. And I think they'll welcome that kind of distinction. So, I think that was one of the key factors there -- Alisyn.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Phil, to you at the White House. President Biden says -- and we heard from Jake -- that there are new sanctions that will be coming. But also acknowledged throughout the administration was that these sanctions do not deter. That this is not going to have an impact over the next few days, the next few weeks and it seems to be -- I won't say resignation -- an acknowledgement that this will take time. Even as Jake Sullivan says that this could be a protracted war that goes on for months.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, protracted and months were kind of the two terms that stood out to me as Russia moves into this new phase -- as was described in detail by the National Security Advisor there.

Look, I thought Jake did kind of one of the more detailed layouts of how they see this sanctions regime working. Very clearly it didn't deter a preinvasion. Very clearly it hasn't changed President Putin's strategic goals or objectives as the invasion has gone on. But when you talk to U.S. officials who are involved in the sanctions process, particularly in the multilateral effort that's been underway now for several months, the goal is to have them bite over the long term. Right.

If this is going to be a protracted fight, if this going to take months at a time, the longer the sanctions are in place and particularly as they start to dial them up over the course of the next several day -- as the National Security Advisor previewed there.

[15:40:00]

What these sanctions are designed to do is essentially start to cut off more and more critical components of how the Russian economy operates. Perhaps most importantly, how the Russian industrial base operates. Whether it's aerospace, whether it's biotechnology. We've seen a lot of sanctions targeted at the defense industry itself.

And so, when you combine that with what we have seen in terms of the Russian losses and materials in terms of vehicle, in terms of tanks and you start to lose the ability to produce those things because of the sanctions that are put in place, the strategy from the U.S. perspective and the U.S. and its allies perspective, is over time the abilities for Russia to continue with the full force of the attacks that they've been laying out over the course of the last five or six weeks will decline rapidly. I think that the question right now -- and I think this is kind of what Jake was getting at there -- and to Victor, I think this also gets to your question is, it's not rapid enough given how things are moving. What we saw and the atrocities over the course of the last several days. However, that is the structure of how these sanctions are supposed to work and why they will be ramped up in the days ahead.

CAMEROTA: Ed, you're in Odessa, Ukraine and if that in fact is where the Russian soldiers are now going to be concentrating their fire power -- meaning in the east and the south of the country -- are the Ukrainian soldiers ready for that?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: I mean, I think there's a great deal of motivation from Ukrainian forces. You see it when you see them on the street and you see their demeanor. You talk to volunteers and activists who have been supporting the soldiers here on the ground. Motivated in large part by what they have seen happen in Kyiv.

But As you listen to the briefing there and you heard the descriptions of what they believe Russian forces are up to, to come in through the east, essentially encircle Ukrainian forces that are already fighting battles in the south and southeast of this country. You know, the Ukrainian forces are going to have to redeploy as well.

And you know, so there's a great of concern about how they will be able to do that. How quickly can they do that? And to the extent to how far south do the Russians plan on pushing this.

We heard from the U.S. official today, assessing -- you know, we saw two different air strikes here in Odessa yesterday -- one early morning, one in the evening. What is the motivation of that? Is it a distraction? Is it a way of keeping Ukrainian forces trapped down here to have to defend the city? Or do the Russians have a larger plan in place for this city here on the key southern port. So, you know, a bunch of different strategies in effect and a lot of reassessment based on what Russian forces are doing right now and how the Ukrainian forces are going to respond to that.

So far, Russian forces have only been able to make it halfway between Mariupol and Odessa. They have been kind of stalled out in that Kherson area. But remember, these are areas that have been devastated. In fact, the Ukrainian Prime Minister was saying in Poland today that the stories that will emerge from what has happened in Mariupol will be far worse than what we're seeing in the suburbs of Kyiv right now.

BLACKWELL: All right, Ed Lavandera, Phil Mattingly and Col. Cedric Leighton, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Let's bring in Igor Novikov. He's a former adviser to President Zelenskyy. He is joining us from Kyiv. Igor, thank you very much for being here. You just heard the U.S. National Security Advisor talking about how this could be a protracted battle. Is Ukraine prepared for that?

IGOR NOVIKOV, FORMER ADVISER TO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: I would say militarily, yes. But I think we're going to run into trouble with our economy. Because what Putin is trying to achieve here is to starve Ukraine to the point of basically being subjugated. So, we're under immense economic pressure. He started doing those airstrikes against our fuel depots and against food storages. So, you know, he wants to disrupt the agricultural season, so thus creating a food crisis. Not only in Ukraine but I would say globally. And because Ukraine is a major powerhouse in that area. So, yes, this war, if it goes on for months, if not years, will be very difficult for Ukraine.

CAMEROTA: There had been talk that President Zelenskyy of Ukraine might meet with President Vladimir Putin of Russia. There might be, you know, there was some hope last week that maybe the peace talks were making some sort of progress. Given what we have seen now in Bucha, the level of human atrocities, would President Zelenskyy still meet with Vladimir Putin?

NOVIKOV: He himself today said that he would, even though it would be difficult. But look, I mean, there's only one way to prevent things like Bucha from happening elsewhere. Although you know, I agree with our Foreign Minister, unfortunately Bucha is very graphic. There are many pictures coming out.

[15:45:00]

But in terms of numbers, it's just the tip of the tip of iceberg. What we're going to see in places like Bryanka, in Mariupol, in Kherson, that's currently occupied by Russian forces, I think will be far worse and far more dangerous.

But what I think President Zelenskyy will have to meet with Putin if the opportunity arises because like, look, any war against -- gets ended with an agreement. So, you know whether that agreement is favorable for Ukraine or not will be determined by the armed forces of Ukraine but, yes, he you will have to meet him.

CAMEROTA: President Zelenskyy gave a poignant and in fact, poetic speech at the Grammys last night. Talking about the power of music and basically the juxtaposition between what musicians in the U.S. are able to experience and what musicians in Ukraine a experiencing. So, let me play this for you?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Our musicians wear body armor instead of tuxedo. They sing to their wounded in hospitals, even to those who can't hear them. But the music will breakthrough anyway. We defend our freedom to live, to love, to sound on our land. We are fighting Russia which brings horrible silence with its bombs, the death silence, fill the silence with your music. Fill it today to tell our story.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: What is he trying to get the international community to do today?

NOVIKOV: Well, first of all, I mean, I've been saying for a month now, that anyone with family in Russia should feel, you know, the void left by Putin's propaganda with the message of truth -- and that includes musicians, that includes artists. So basically, everyone should follow Arnold Schwarzenegger with this example. Because like look, at the end of the day what happened in Bucha, although Putin ordered it. It wasn't Putin carrying out the killings. It was just the ordinary Russian soldiers from the far east to Russia. And you know, we need to fight them, we need to win against their propaganda first and foremost.

By the way, in terms of Bucha, what I expect to happen next will be a massive propaganda campaign by Russia trying to divert attention and to confuse people. Similar to what we saw after Russia shot down Malaysian Boeing 777. So, look out for that. And you know, there will be plenty of lies spread in the next few days.

CAMEROTA: Well, yes, I mean, we can prepare for that. But of course, we have the video and pictures and our correspondence have seen things with our own eyes. Igor Novikov, thank you very much. We'll speak to you again.

Back here, we have breaking news in California. Police say they've made an arrest in that shooting that killed six people. But there may be more suspects. And we have the latest for you, next.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Sacramento police have arrested a suspect in connection with this weekend shooting that killed least six people. At least 12 people were injured. The police say that shots were fired in downtown Sacramento after a fight broke out early Sunday morning.

CNN's Natasha Chen following the story for us. Natasha, do police think there are other suspects at this point?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn and Victor, police did describe multiple shooters when they told everyone about this incident initially on Sunday. This happened around 2:00 a.m. downtown Sacramento at 10th and K, just a few blocks away from city hall and the basketball arena where the Sacramento Kings played.

A lot of people having fun coming out of the clubs. And police actually heard the shots fired, came rushing to the scene, offering medical aid. Now, the update they gave us within the past hour is that police have arrested 26-year-old Dandrae Martin. They call him a related suspect. Police say he was arrested and booked for assault and illegal firearm possession charges.

In that last update, police also described how they worked through the night. SWAT and detectives serving search warrants on three homes and that's how they found at least one handgun. They also talk about receiving more than 100 video or photo files provided by the public. They've been asking for that because they know that there may have been a fight that occurred before this shooting and they were asking the public for help for more information about that. They also say that three buildings, three vehicles had been struck by

gunfire and that there were over 100 expended shell casings that they found so far. You can see all the markers on the ground there. We're also hearing from the families of victims who are grieving right now, including the mother of Sergio Harris. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA HARRIS, MOTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM, SERGIO HARRIS: My son was a very vivacious young man. You know? Fun to be around. Life of the party, have fun, smiling all the time. You know, don't bother people. And for this to happen is crazy. It's crazy. And I'm just to the point right now, I don't know what to do. I don't even think this is real. I feel like it's a dream.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: And so, a father of three children there. The mayor of Sacramento also spoke yesterday saying that the response here has to go beyond thoughts and prayers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR DARRELL STEINBERG, SACRAMENTO: It is beyond time to have a sane conversation about guns in America. We have a sickness. It's a sickness in our country. A sickness in our culture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: And President Biden also acknowledged that this problem, of course, goes far beyond Sacramento. He offered a statement of condolences and added, too, that his administration has been standing up gun trafficking strike forces to help cities across the country expand community violence interventions, hire more police officers. And he also calls on Congress to act, to ban ghost guns, require background checks for all gun sales, ban assault weapons, and high- capacity magazines. So, Victor and Alisyn, a lot of work to be done here to the respond to this tragedy that has become all too common in this country.

CAMEROTA: OK, Natasha Chen, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Minutes ago, U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan spoke about the possibility of a war crimes trial for Vladimir Putin. He said the U.S. will consult with allies about how such a trial would move forward. Ukraine's president visited Bucha today. The mass grave, he saw one there. Bodies were lying in the streets after occupying Russian forces retreated.

Let's bring in Richard Haass, president of the Council on Foreign Relations, also the author of the book, "The World, A Brief Introduction." Richard, welcome back. Let's start with what we heard from President Zelenskyy. He says that this is genocide. The White House is not going that far.

[15:55:00] We heard from Jake Sullivan that they don't believe it meets the criteria. Do you believe that what's happening there, have you seen enough to say that it is genocide?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: It's not clear to me it meets that threshold. What is clear, these are war crimes. And also, as the National Security Adviser pointed out, these are not simply the acts of undisciplined, unprofessional troops. Troops like that tend to steal things. Even worse, they do things like rape. But these were mass executions of civilians. This looks to me that something was clearly ordered and organized.

The only policy question for us right now, is whether we ought to be talking about it the way we are, as much as we are. Don't get me wrong. Again, these are war crimes but that's the sort of thing we can and should pursue once this war is over. Right now, I would argue the focus ought to be figuring out how to end this war before any more Ukrainians lose their lives, before any more of that country is destroyed. And I'm not sure this conversation necessarily gets us closer to that goal.

BLACKWELL: So, let's talk about sanctions then. And the president says that more sanctions are coming. If the expectation from the White House -- and this is what we heard from Jake Sullivan and heard from others -- that these sanctions do not deter. They are to impose a cost and it won't come in days. It won't in weeks. It will happen over maybe months, happen over time. What is the argument for incrementalism?

HAASS: Well, often incrementalism is all you can get political support for. Unilateralist sanctions are not nearly as effective as multilateral sanctions. I would say that sanctions can shape behavior. The problem with these sanctions is they simply don't go far enough.

The biggest hole in the sanctions is the European continued importing of Russian energy sources. If we could tighten that up significantly, that would make a difference. That would be something that would really put serious pain on Russia's economy. And also, I'd say one other thing about sanctions, they do send messages to other would-be invaders, if you will. It basically says, what you do won't be cost- free. So, even if sanctions can't turn Russia around on a dime, they hopefully discourage others from following suit.

BLACKWELL: So, let's talk about the East and the West. First the West and you talk about Europe. Is this, as I asked Susan Glasser at the top of the show -- a tipping point? Are you seeing indications that some who have been a bit reluctant, a bit hesitant, are now more aggressive in what they're willing to exact or impose on Russia for what we're seeing in Bucha?

HAASS: Quite possibly. There is a graphic quality to this. There's a human quality to this. But these are not policy abstractions. We're seeing innocent civilians being executed and massacred. But we'll see. We'll see, for example, whether this gets Germany and other Europeans to dramatically accelerate their willingness to see their energy imports from Russia go down. That to me will be the test. Not whether it affects them emotionally, to be blunt.

BLACKWELL: And now the East. China, India specifically. Is their political support, sustainable, if we continue to see these pictures of executions, execution style killings in Ukraine?

HAASS: Again, sorry to be so blunt and so down beat but yes, it is. These are countries themselves that have committed, shall we say, done in the course of the history, some nasty things. China is obviously dealing brutally with the Uyghurs in their own country. This is a repressive society.

India has important strategic and economic links with Russia. I just don't see them fundamentally changing their policy because of these images or these principles. Sorry, I wish I could sit here and tell you otherwise. But I continue to think Russia will have a lot of active or passive support. Not just from the Chinas and Indias, but from countries in Africa, the Middle East and Latin America.

All right Richard, Haass, from the Council on Foreign Relations, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now to this. A landmark climate report warns that the world is heading toward levels of global warming that will cause irreversible impacts. The U.N. report calls for a rapid phaseout of fossil fuels and it highlights how affordable renewable energy from wind and solar sources are now becoming.

BLACKWELL: The report notes that political interests in fossil fuels are preventing the world from scaling up the use of reusable energy. Now, the U.N. Secretary General called the report a damning verdict and he said, we are on a fast track to climate disaster and an unlivable world.

CAMEROTA: Well, on that uplifting note -- sometimes we like to end with a kicker. That was not one.

BLACKWELL: We got kicked.

CAMEROTA: That's right.

BLACKWELL: All right.

CAMEROTA: All right, "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper live from Ukraine starts right now.