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U.S. Tested Hypersonic Missiles; Ilyn Ponomarev is Interviewed about Russia; U.S. Calls for Suspension from U.N. Human Rights Council. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired April 05, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:18]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Just moments ago, Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke as he departed for a NATO meeting in Brussels, commenting on the potential evidence of war crimes in Ukraine.

Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: As this Russian tide is receding from parts of Ukraine, the world is seeing the depth and the destruction left in its wake. And we're seeing in particular the horror that has been left behind in Bucha. Something that is touching people literally around the world.

What we've seen in Bucha is not the random act of a rogue unit. It's a deliberate campaign to kill, to torture, to rape, to commit atrocities. The reports are more than credible. The evidence is there for the world to see.

This reinforces our determination and the determination of countries around the world to make sure that one way or another, one day or another, there is accountability for those who committed these acts, for those who ordered them. There's also a strong determination to make sure that we're doing everything we can to continue to support Ukraine in its brave fight to push the Russian aggression out of Ukraine, and, of course, to sustain and increase the pressure on Russia to stop this aggression.

We're heading off to Brussels now for a meeting of the NATO foreign ministers for a meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers, the leading democratic economies in the world, all of which will go to supporting the efforts of accountability and support for Ukraine, increased pressure on Russia.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, you talk about that this is a deliberate campaign to kill civilians. Does the U.S. have evidence linking senior Russian officials in Moscow to either ordering or knowledge of the acts being committed in Bucha?

BLINKEN: We're working, as are others, to put the evidence together to support the efforts of the Ukrainian prosecutor general, to support the efforts of the U.N. Human Rights Council's Commission of Inquiry that we helped establish. Marshalling all of this, putting all of this together.

We said before the aggression that we anticipated that if it went forward, there would be atrocities committed. Information that we have seen going in the aggression suggested that this would be part of the Russian campaign. Horrifically, tragically, what we're seeing in Bucha and in other places supports that.

But, in all of these instances, there's a very important effort to put the evidence together, to compile it, to document it, to support the different investigations that are going on. That's what we're doing. That's what others are doing. This will play out over time. Meanwhile, what's vital is to sustain and build on the support for Ukraine, to sustain and build on the pressure against Russia, to bring this war to an end, to stop the death and destruction that Russia's perpetrating in Ukraine.

Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Secretary of State Antony Blinken there commenting as he leaves Joint Base Andrews for Brussels. His words there, Bianna, clear and distinct. He says, what we've seen in Bucha, in Ukraine, is not the random act of a rogue unit. He calls it a deliberate campaign to target and kill civilians. That, of course, is the standard for a war crime.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, and he alludes to what will likely be many more crime scenes like Bucha, right? You had President Zelenskyy say that he now believes Russia will try to cover up more of these scenes and atrocities as so much attention has been focused on Bucha given what we don't yet know has happened in Mariupol, right, and what the ground looks like there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: So, clearly, this is something that the U.S. administration and its allies believes is not an outlier, but sort of a method of operation for the Russian military as they move forward with this campaign.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Also new this morning, a Defense Department official is telling CNN that U.S. military successfully tested a hypersonic missile, but hid it for weeks to avoid escalating tensions with Russia ahead of President Biden's trip to Europe.

CNN's Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon.

Barbara, what more do we know about this missile test? We didn't know about it. I'm just curious, did the Russians know?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know whether they knew whether they had any classified sensor that could detect this, but the reason this missile was so important, this is a so- called hypersonic missile, traveling at speeds up to Mach 5 and above.

[09:35:03]

Very difficult in a combat situation to shoot down if an adversary has that missile and if it's coming at you because of the high speed it travels at when it's launched from an aircraft, as it was in this test.

Here's the problem, the Russians have this missile. This kind of technology. They've already used it in Ukraine. The U.S. says, oh, it's not a game changer but the U.S. has not been able to successfully field a hypersonic missile. It's still in the test phase in the U.S. military. So very important that they were able to have a successful test.

But, indeed, this happened back in mid-March. And my colleague Oren Lieberman has been told that the U.S. military decided not to publicize it because of concerns that it would potentially escalate tensions with the Russians. The Russians very sensitive about any U.S. weaponry.

And it is not the first time we know that the U.S. military has reacted this way. Already they have canceled and made public actually a so-called routine test of an intercontinental ballistic missile because they were concerned that that too could enflame tensions with Russia.

Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, Barbara Starr, as you noted, the Russians have already used a hypersonic missile in their war in Ukraine. Thank you so much.

STARR: Sure.

GOLODRYGA: Straight ahead, Russia is now banned in using U.S. dollars stockpiled at American banks to pay down its debt, but will this move actually impact Putin's invasion of Ukraine? We'll talk to an exiled Russian now helping Ukraine. That's up next.

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[09:41:13]

GOLODRYGA: The U.S. has now banned Russia from using funds held in American banks to pay down debt, cranking up pressure on Russia's already fragile economy. The cash reserves are frozen under sanctions put in place back in February, but the U.S. was allowing Russia to use them on a case by case basis.

SCIUTTO: Russia does now face the risk of default.

Joining us now to discuss the effect of those sanctions on Russia and the future of Putin's leadership is Ilya Ponomarev. He's a Russian dissident, former member, actually, of the Russian parliament, forced into exile of being the only Russian politician to vote against the annexation of Crimea after Russia's first invasion in 2014. He's now in Kyiv.

Ilya, good to have you on this morning. You said --

ILYA PONOMAREV, FORMER MEMBER OF RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: You said and you wrote that you think Putin will die this year because he started a war he cannot win. And after losing a war, that would mean death for him personally. There's been a lot of speculation in this country, and granted genuine investigation by foreign intelligence services as to the strength of Russia's leadership. Do you see any real realistic challenge to Putin's leadership from inside the Kremlin, from inside the Russian military, for instance?

PONOMAREV: I think it's growing. Growing every day. And I think there is a historic logic.

When I was saying that, I was saying that I don't know where Putin's death would be coming from. Whether it's -- it would be coming from Russian people or whether it would be coming from his inner circle, or whether it would be coming from Ukrainian soldiers. But it's inevitable that it will come because no dictator yet to lose the war stayed in power.

GOLODRYGA: Ilya, there's a debate going on now as to whether the sanctions, and we should note they are unprecedented sanctions that the U.S. along with its allies has imposed upon Russia, is acting more as a deterrent or as a punishment. Regardless of how you term it, though, Russia and Vladimir Putin is still pursuing his objective and his war in Ukraine. One thing we haven't seen is banning oil imports into Europe.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: We haven't seen the Europeans take that step yet. Regardless of whether it's a deterrent or punishment, do you think that that's what it will finally take to get Vladimir Putin to pull back?

PONOMAREV: I can give you one very simple tool how to ban exports in Russian oil and gas without actually banning it, without an embargo. Prohibit the (INAUDIBLE) with Russian ruble and then it would be stopped anyway because then taking dollars and euro means that they would be risked to be frozen because of the previous sanctions, and rubles would be illegal. And that's the end of the story for this regime. SCIUTTO: You have joined Ukraine's forces, its territorial defense

forces in Ukraine. Something of a citizens army here. And part of your role there, as you explained to us, is to try to get accurate information about this war into Russia. The fact is, though, Russia is increasingly a closed information environment. At least the public polling there shows that Russians largely support this war, even more so than when it began.

I wonder, is it possible to pierce that bubble in any great numbers to change -- to change the public's view, or at least to get the public to be aware of what's actually happening on the ground there?

PONOMAREV: No. Speaking about public opinion, the situation is way more complex than what lies on the surface. Firstly, most of pollsters, they cannot speak with the majority of people because they simply are afraid. And they are refusing to participate in any polls. And without knowing what they would be asked about, they just simply do not participate.

[09:45:03]

So, the results that we see right now, that's by polling one of citizen and other nine refuse to take part in the survey. That's the first thing.

The second thing is that when you look at the responses on the support of this special military operation, then you would see 80 percent saying, yes, we support it. But when they didn't ask who (ph) support President Putin, the same poll, says 44 percent support President Putin. When they've been asked among the Russian politicians, who do you trust, approximately 24 say they trust President Putin. So that gives you an idea of the actual support of this inside the country.

Plus, additionally, what is important is how much passionate people actually support or disapprove of what's going on. And we see that to the country, to the situation with Crimea when actually, yes, majority of Russians did support the annexation of Crimea. This horrible tragedy has been supported by a tiny minority of Russians. It's a tiny -- it's tiny minority. All others they just conformists (ph).

GOLODRYGA: So it's just a matter, I guess, of how the country will ultimately respond when some day, sooner or later, they're going to have to come to terms with the fact that they've lost thousands of their own sons fighting there in Ukraine.

PONOMAREV: That's -- that's correct. And you should understand that they currently see only one force in the country, which is Vladimir Putin. And that's the true force. And they don't see any alternatives. There is no political alternatives. So, they don't have a choice. If not Vladimir Putin then whom because Vladimir -- Alexei Navalny's in prison.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

PONOMAREV: Mikhail (INAUDIBLE) is in exile. So they don't -- they don't see the side they can switch on (ph). GOLODRYGA: Yes, Putin designed it that --

SCIUTTO: Yes, mothers -- if mothers lose sons, they can't be lied to, right?

PONOMAREV: That's correct.

SCIUTTO: That's a fact that can't be -- can't be hidden from Russian mothers or any other mother for that matter.

Ilya Ponomarev, thanks so much.

GOLODRYGA: Thank you.

PONOMAREV: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And straight ahead, as the U.S. calls for Russia's removal from the United Nations Human Rights Council, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. has been touring Moldova, visiting refugees who have endured weeks of Russia's attacks. I speak to her one on one up next.

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[09:51:46]

GOLODRYGA: Minutes from now, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will address the United Nations. This as the U.S. pushes to have Russia suspended from the U.N. Human Rights Council.

I traveled with a U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas- Greenfield, as she toured refugee sites in Romania and Moldova, which also happens to be the country where I was born. It was on this trip that she, like much of the world, first saw the devastating images out of Bucha.

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LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We're going to seek Russia suspension from the U.N. Human Rights Council.

GOLODRYGA (voice over): Linda Thomas Greenfield the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., addressing the horrifying images out of Bucha.

GOLODRYGA (on camera): You think you're going to get the two-thirds needed?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: I know we're going to get it.

GOLODRYGA: Sergey Lavrov, foreign secretary of Russia, Dmitry Peskov, have both called what the U.S. and what the world has seen as lies. How do you expect to respond to your counterpart at the U.N. who will likely say the same?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Well, he's said that time and time again when we have exposed their actions, and we will continue to expose them for the liars that they are. They told us that we were seeing actors. Dead bodies acting. So, I expect that I will hear that in the Security Council.

No one will believe them. And we will continue to isolate and expose them in the Security Council and around the world.

GOLODRYGA: Do you expect that China will believe them?

THOMAS=GREENFIELD: I can't speak for the Chinese. I would hope that the Chinese will see what we're seeing and also join us in condemning these horrific actions.

Hi. How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. Good.

GOLODRYGA (voice over): Six weeks into Russia's war in Ukraine, CNN accompanied Thomas-Greenfield as she toured refugee sites in Romania and Moldova. Just over a million Ukrainians have flooded into these countries in the west. Ninety percent of them women and children.

GOLODRYGA (on camera): What made you decide to come to Moldova?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: You know, I have been watching the news reports of refugees crossing borders into Poland. And as I looked at the map, Moldova is the smallest country, it's the poorest country, and per capita it's taking the most refugees. So I felt it was important to come here to thank them.

GOLODRYGA (voice over): Nearly 400,000 refugees have crossed Moldova's border with Ukraine since the war began and 120,000 of those remain in the country of only about 2.5 million people. Each one of them with a story, a history, a life abruptly uprooted and left behind.

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: What messages do you want me to carry back?

GOLODRYGA: Like 19-year-old Lina Mencheva (ph). She and her mother left her home in Mykolaiv nearly one month ago, leaving behind her grandmother and boyfriend.

GOLODRYGA (on camera): So it's been almost a month since you left.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it's crazy.

GOLODRYGA: What has this been like for you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been so challenging because, first -- like my first emotions, I didn't really have them because everything was so fast and quickly, I couldn't really understand myself. But then I thought that maybe I shouldn't have left. Shouldn't have left.

[09:55:01]

GOLODRYGA: Why?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I don't have any children and I'm young and I can help more. I could have helped more if I stayed in Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA (voice over): We also met 74-year-old grandmother Valentina (ph) from the nearby port city of Odessa.

She left behind her daughter and grandson who refused to leave the country. She worries about the recent Russian bombing in Odessa, but also says that she's so appreciative of how Moldova has opened its borders and arms to people like her.

What Moldova doesn't have to offer is much financial assistance, which is one of the reasons for the ambassador's visit.

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: We will be announcing an additional $50 million in support to Moldova for their efforts supporting refugees here.

GOLODRYGA: But Moldova needs more than just financial support.

GOLODRYGA (on camera): What more can the U.S. do and is willing to do to support this country, not just financially but its own security?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: You know, I will be meeting with the president and the prime minister later today and that will be part of the discussion I will have with them in terms of what else can we do to give you more confidence about your security, to address the problems that you might foresee in the future. And I will take that back to Washington and share it with other cabinet officials to see how we can better support them.

GOLODRYGA (voice over): Moldova's prime minister acknowledged Russia's presence along the breakaway region of Transnistria, but says that, for now, their intelligence shows no signs of additional Russian troop build-up.

Thomas-Greenfield's final stop was in Romania, where some 600,000 Ukrainian refugees have come through the main train station in the city's capital of Bucharest since Russia's invasion. Unlike Moldova, Romania is a member of NATO and thus is protected by the organization's Article V charter. Still, signs of concern and vulnerability are becoming increasingly evident.

GOLODRYGA (on camera): Starting this month, I just read that here in Romania those under the age of 40 will be given iodine pills in anticipation. This is Romania, a NATO nation, protected under NATO, a member of the EU. What does that tell you about the trepidation and fears among European allies?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: I mean it just tells you how much fear people have and what they know Putin is capable of. And so that's why we have to stay unified in our efforts to stop him from going any further.

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GOLODRYGA: And, Jim, just moment after that interview, I met a Romanian woman who opened her purse and showed me her iodine pills. I mean this is the life they are living right now, not knowing what will come next and what aggression Putin will do, and what actions he will take, not only, obviously, on Ukraine, but on neighboring countries.

But I just have to say, as somebody who was born in Moldova, I used to tell people I was born in Russia, the Soviet Union, because not many people knew what Moldova was.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: And now, for the first time, coming back after 35 years, to see this country go above and beyond, right, in welcoming these immigrations, really putting -- and refugees, really putting its name on the map here for all the right reasons.

SCIUTTO: Listen, that's a good side, a silver lining, if you want to call it to this horrible story, and that is the generosity, the hospitality of those neighboring nations, including Moldova, taking in millions.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: You know, far outpacing, for instance, the most recent exodus of migrants we saw from the Syrian war by multiples, right? So that's -- that's good to see. The trouble is, of course, those people are fleeing for their lives.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But it was great to have you there. It was nice, I'm sure, to have you home after all these years.

GOLODRYGA: It was nice.

SCIUTTO: Well, just minutes from now, we will hear from Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield at the U.N. Security Council, as well as, as we've been saying, the Ukrainian president himself addressing world leaders. We're going to bring you those comments live.

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