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Zelenskyy to Addresses U.N. After Bucha Massacre Exposed; Ukraine Says, Russian Troops Hit Civilian Ship in Port of Mariupol; Ukraine Warns Russia's Atrocities Are Worse in Other Cities. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired April 05, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Tuesday morning to you, I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Moments from now, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will speak to the U.N. Security Council. He is demanding security guarantees for his country, as we are seeing evidence of a massacre in the Kyiv suburb of Bucha. Officials say well over 300 Ukrainians were tortured and killed there.

The Kremlin is, again, denying Russian forces slaughtered civilians even though we see it with our own eyes. This as CNN teams have witnessed bodies being pulled from basements in that town. Secretary of State Antony Blinken spoke about those images just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: What we see in Bucha is not the random act of a rogue unit. It's a deliberate campaign to kill, to torture, to rape, to commit atrocities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Deliberate campaign, that's the basis for war crimes charges.

Also new this morning, the port city of Mariupol rocked once again by Russian troops. It's been suffering as well. Officials say a civilian ship is on fire, sinking into the Sea of Asov, just off the coast from there, all of this as Russian forces continue to block evacuation convoys meant to rescue civilians from that city.

GOLODRYGA: CNN's Brianna Keilar joins us now from Lviv, in Eastern Ukraine. Brianna, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, as we noted, is about to address the U.N. Security Council. What do you expect to hear from him?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: We're expecting, Bianna, that he's going to highlight these atrocities. We are seeing them in Bucha. Hundreds of bodies have been reported. But now, we're hearing about it from other villages, from other cities where Russian forces once occupied. And now that they have withdrawn or been pushed out, you're seeing what they're leaving in their wake, and that's the message that President Zelenskyy is going to be taking to the U.N.

He did say yesterday that these atrocities make it more difficult to negotiate with Russia. He wants to be coming from a position of strength, obviously, in negotiations and so he's going to be pressuring the U.N., he's going to be pressuring the west and his allies to put more pressure on Russia.

I spoke earlier with the deputy prime minister of Ukraine and she said it really comes down to an oil embargo, a gas embargo against Russia on the part of Europe, and here is how she put it.

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KEILAR: What will his call to the world be?

IRYNA VERESHCHUK, DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER OF UKRAINE: I think he will tell the whole world about what's happened and if the world is still thinking how to minimize losses from the sanctions against Putin, whether to introduce an oil and gas embargo imports from Russia, if the world is still thinking about that and how to evade sanctions. Then they are all complicit and they need to realize that these are the dollars that go to Putin and that he uses to kill Ukrainian women and children. And that makes everyone complicit and everyone responsible for these crimes.

I think President Joe Biden and the American people must put all the influence, must put every pressure and use all their influence to make Europe -- to rid Europe of this dependence on Russian oil and gas, which stink, frankly speaking, with the blood of our children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And CNN's Phil Black is with me now. You know, Bucha is going to be obviously the backdrop of his comments. It's just -- it even feels different, quite frankly, than the other addresses that he's given. We're realizing Bucha isn't alone. There are other places like this and what we have seen there is horrendous.

PHIL BLACK, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, yes, that's right. So, what we're seeing in Bucha now is the ongoing process of recovering from what took place there, a long process of recovering from Russian occupation.

[10:05:01]

We are seeing dead bodies still being cleaned up. We're seeing an investigation begin. We are seeing people grieving the loss. Because even in a war, essentially, these are communities, and indeed, this is a country that is trying to understand, come to terms with what happened there, even in a war that has been defined so significantly by horrible indifference to civilian life. The intimacy and the brutality of the violence that appears to have taken place there is deeply shocking, and will take a long time to fully understand. Take a look.

BLACK (voice over): There is little point closing the backdoors of this van. It's stopping frequently, picking up those who didn't survive Russia's brief occupation of Bucha.

Each person is photographed with possible I.D. is checked and when necessary bindings are removed. Their clothes, their belongings and in some cases their restraints all indicate these people were a threat to no one in the moments before they were killed.

In normal time, Vladyslav Minchenko is a painter. Now, he collects bodies. This one was carrying potatoes, he says. You can see they are all civilians. And snipers shot them all in the head. This is how they were having fun. Tatiana Valudmurivna (ph) weeps besides her husband's shallow grave.

She says he was taken from their home and weeks later found in a basement tortured, mutilated, shot in the head.

Ukraine's Defense Ministry released this video of another basement in Bucha. A CNN team visited the site and saw five dead men, their hands were tied, most were shot in the head and legs.

President Zelenskyy came to Bucha and walked its streets saying, it is very difficult to negotiate with Russia when you see what they have done here.

Ukraine says it will investigates Russia war crime. The European Union says we'll help. No need, says Russia, because all of these has been staged.

A resident says this equally sincere message scribbled with lipstick in a Bucha home by a Russian soldier. Thanks for the warm welcome, it says. Sorry about the mess.

Russia's mess, the extraordinary suffering, deaths and trauma inflicted during just a few weeks of occupation is only starting to be understood. But those who lived through, it is unlikely to ever been forgiven.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACK (on camera): Brianna, when President Zelenskyy speaks to the Security Council, he will be thinking about what he saw there yesterday. He will be thinking about what he knows took place. And he will be demanding a step-up in action by the world that matches the brutality and the horrors that are being uncovered there.

KEILAR: You could see the pain on his face yesterday when he was there. The mayor of Bucha telling us yesterday that it was as if Russian soldiers had been given the green light to go on safari in Bucha and there is going to be obviously a long path to recovery. Phil, thank you so much for that report. Jim and Bianna? GOLODRYGA: An, Brianna, I think the concern is that this isn't an isolated situation, that there are countless more Buchas throughout Ukraine and so much attention is now on the port city of Mariupol, right, Russian forces attacking a civilian ship there as Russian troops are again flocking an evacuation convoy to that city. What is the latest assessment of how difficult things are there right now and what is ahead in terms of what we're going to bear witness to?

KEILAR: I think that's really the thing, Bianna. I think you really hit the nail on the head there, because we can't see it. And here over the last month and change, we couldn't see what was going on in Bucha, right? We couldn't see what was going on in the cities around Kyiv. And now as you're getting in there with cameras and officials are able to look at it, you get a better sense of it.

We understand that it is very much the same but on a larger scale. Mariupol is a much larger city. It's hard to know right now because you still have about 100,000 people who are stuck there and the International Committee for the Red Cross has been unable to get in now. They've been trying to get in since Saturday and they keep being held at bay. This is because they are being stopped by Russian forces. They're not being allowed in.

And this is a city that has been without food, without water, without medicine, without power for weeks and weeks now. We had heard before about mass graves in Mariupol. We now see them in Bucha. I think we are just getting a small look at what is going to be horrific and on a larger scale in Mariupol.

SCIUTTO: We have to acknowledge throughout this that this is a time- worn Russian war plan that we've seen not just in Ukraine, we've seen it in Syria, we've seen it in Chechnya before.

[10:10:06]

It's part of the playbook. Brianna Keilar, good to have you there to help document.

The U.N. Security Council, as we mentioned, its meeting is now under way. Just moments ago, the Russian ambassador finished his comments. We're going to bring you the Ukrainian president when he joins.

We're joined now by two members of the Ukrainian parliament, Lesia Zaburanna and Maria Ionova. They were both part of the Ukrainian delegation that traveled here to Washington last week to meet with U.S. lawmakers. It's good, Lesia and Maria, to have both of you here.

I'm imagining myself, as an American, witnessing pictures in my own country like we're seeing now coming out of Bucha of civilians murdered in areas occupied by Russian forces. Lesia, perhaps I could begin with you, but also I want to hear from you, Maria, what are your emotions right now and what do you want to see done?

LESIA ZABURANNA, UKRAINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: You know, of course, we had really awful emotions and I would like to say that our delegation went to United States and to Canada to highlight that now we have a really terrible situation in our country. It's not a war. It's a genocide of our population.

And I would like to highlight that it's not a road between Ukraine and Russia. It's a war between evil and all democratic world. And now we're fighting for all democratic values, for all democratic world. And You see from Russia what they have done in Bucha and we are waiting for the results of (INAUDIBLE) in Mariupol. I am absolutely sure that very unfortunately we will see more pictures.

So, I hope that all democratic countries, including the United States, will fight in this war with us and Putin has to be punched.

SCIUTTO: Maria, we were just showing pictures from the U.N. Security Council. We saw the Russian ambassador giving his comments now. Ukrainian and Russian officials have been negotiating.

As you see aggression like this, brutality like this by the Russian military under the command of senior Russian officials and the president, Vladimir Putin, can Ukraine still negotiate with Russia?

MARIA IONOVA, UKRAINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: First of all, let me also express my emotions, but, of course, we are very grateful to the America nation with the support and also American authorities with the support we have had, but it's not enough. And we also appreciate U.S.'s initiative together with Brits to exclude Russia from the Human Rights Council.

And we really are looking forward about the results, because U.N. must be held accountable when we see a lot of countries they abstained and we just would like -- I'm addressing (INAUDIBLE) that now, like supporting criminals is also a crime. And that is why, regarding your question, for example, Bucha, it's my native land because my childhood was in Bucha and Irpin. And, of course, I'm full of rage that all these criminals have to be punished.

But at the same time, of course, I'm full of love to my nation, our nation, which is so great, and when the whole world is shocked by the crimes in Bucha, even today, the services find, still killed people in Bucha in the houses, in the yards. They were tortured, raped.

And our criminal specialists, they document these crimes but the atrocities against -- they are shocked by these atrocities against girls, girls who were raped, women killed and also, we saw all the videos. And that is why these are really crimes against humanity.

And we would like -- the whole world cannot also imagine what we will see in Borodyanka today. It's the next town after Bucha. It's even worse. The General Prosecutor's Office has mentioned this. And, of course, Mariupol, I mean, we even cannot imagine these horrible things. That is why all of these facts are gathering.

And when you're asking me about negotiation, of course, the president is trying to do and political leaders, they are trying to deliver all the messages that we need to punish and to kick out, to push out Russian troops from our territory.

I think that, of course, now, I mean, for me, I just can't imagine these negotiations with the terrorists.

[10:15:05]

That is why I think that, first, cease-fire, because just -- we have just got against (INAUDIBLE) the whole regions of Ukraine, and at least negotiations probably on humanitarian corridors. But when at the beginning of your program, all withdraw or push out, I would like to underline, Russian's troops were kicking out from Kyiv region to Belarus. They did not withdraw. Do not believe them. I kindly ask you, because we know all the manipulations and lies, which will, by the way, also in U.N. now.

SCIUTTO: Yes. We've reported many that times that this was the result of Russian losses around Kyiv and not any of them discovering God, right, suddenly.

Lesia, I do want to ask you given what they've seen and the world is witnessing in Bucha and we may see in Mariupol and other parts of Ukraine, who do you trust to investigate and prosecute any war crimes? Is it the U.N.? Is it a Special Tribunal? Do you trust the E.U.? Is it Ukraine on its own?

ZABURANNA: You know, of course, I support that opinion, that it could be a common investigation with Ukraine, of course, first of all, and it could be American prosecutors, European Union, but we need to investigate all cases.

I absolutely agree with my colleague, Maria Ionova, that I suppose this is the biggest genocide and the biggest crime in the 21st century. So, we need international approach, international community to investigate all these cases.

And I believe in commonwealth in this sphere from the Ukraine side, American side and maybe European Union also.

SCIUTTO: Yes, crime of the 21st century, with echoes of the 20th century with World War II.

Lesia Zaburanna, Maria Ionova, thanks so much to both of you. Please, quickly, before we go.

IONOVA: Yes, thank you so much. I just want to say that, unfortunately, Russian nation is sick because -- and only altogether, we have to stop them and to stop in Ukraine because he will go further, and now our nation is bleeding. And I just want to say that it's really a genocide, because Ukraine, it's a multinational country. We have more than 100 national minorities. And we see that that's why we have to stop Russians because it's a terrorist state and also we kindly ask U.S. government to push Germans on the oil and gas embargo. Thank you so much. And more weapons for Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: We will continue to report and I'm sure we'll hear similar requests along similar lines from the Ukrainian president any moment now. Lesia Zaburanna, Maria Ionova, members of the Ukrainian parliament, thanks so much. As we mentioned, at any moment, President Zelenskyy will address the U.N. Security Council, this after the world is learning, seeing evidence of a massacre in Bucha just outside the Ukrainian capital. We're going to bring you those comments and address live when it begins.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, as Russian forces refocus their strikes in the south and east, a CNN team experiences a close call with Russian artillery fire. Their encounter is just one example of what Ukrainian civilians are dodging every day.

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[10:20:00]

SCIUTTO: Russia's invasion of Ukraine, of course, continues. Russia's military now claiming long-range missiles launched from vessels in the Black Sea hit what Russia says is a training center for Special Operations Forces in Southern Ukraine. Russia claiming the center was used among other things to, quote, accommodate foreign mercenaries, as we've reported a number of foreign combat veterans have volunteered to fight for Ukraine. CNN could not immediately verify Russia's claim.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, a dangerous scene played out for one of our own CNN crews near Mykolaiv. Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman and his team had just stopped to talk to some Ukrainian soldiers yesterday when Russian forces began to fire in their direction, and it was all caught on camera.

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BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is an area where there's been a fair amount of outgoing as well as incoming artillery. Down the road is a town that has been fought over for several days by Russian and Ukrainian forces.

In these vast open spaces, the Russians seem far away. They're not.

Down here, John, down here, keep on rolling. You see it over there?

We hugged the earth. Two more artillery rounds.

Cameraman John Torigowi (ph) keeps rolling.

[10:25:00]

All right, so we have had two incoming rounds responding to artillery that's been firing in the Russian directions. Those shells came pretty close to us.

No one has been injured. The officer tells translator Valeria Dubrovska (ph) we need to go now.

I hope the car is okay. Yes, let's go.

And so we run with full body armor to the cars. One car can't move, peppered with shrapnel.

We're losing petro.

No time to lose.

Throw it in the back.

Driver Igor Tiyagno (ph) razor focused on getting us to safety, his car also hit.

CRENDON GREENWAY, SECURITY ADVISER: Go, go, go, go, go.

WEDEMAN: All right. We're now trying to get out of this area as quickly as possible. Our other car completely destroyed.

Crammed into this small car, we approach safer ground.

GREENWAY: We're going to all the way into that hard cover of that village and then we'll take a breather.

WEDEMAN (voice over): Producer Karim Hadar (ph) checks the damage to the car. The soldiers we left behind are still out there. We could leave. They can't.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (on camera): And we were able to speak with some of those soldiers this morning. They said they came under bombardment once again, but they're okay. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Listen, this war is bigger than ones we've seen recently, the weapons are bigger, the artillery barrage is bigger and the threat bigger to folks like you. Ben, we're glad you and your team are safe.

GOLODRYGA: Well, joining us now is retired Army General and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General George Joulwan, along with Shawn Turner, former Director of Communication for U.S. National Intelligence. Welcome both of you.

General, let me begin with you. What is the next what Russia calls phase in this war look like? What can we expect to see on the ground there as Russia refocuses to that Donbas eastern region and obviously there to the south as well?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes. So, I think you're going to see that and Odessa is going to be also very important. I don't think they've taken can take their eye off of Kyiv, the main objective, the one they want to get to, but I think they'll come at it from the Donbas area and Mariupol and the Odessa. But don't roll out Belarus because I really think that's another threat hanging or looming on the horizon.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a lot of the Russian forces who left the Kyiv region went up to Belarus, presumably, to attempt to resupply. General, and I want to get to Shawn, just a question for you about what we've seen in Bucha now, evidence of war crimes there, because you were involved in the Bosnia war where, of course, there were similar war crimes and later investigated via special U.N. tribunal. Is that a model for investigating and potentially prosecuting what we're seeing now in Ukraine?

JOULWAN: It could be. And I would take a hard look. What we had, Milosevic and Mladic, when they loaded all the men and boys on buses and took them in the woods and killed them, they were toasting with champagne, so it was on television. And so we had a very clear picture of what was happening at the beginning as well as at the end.

So, I think what we called for then was for Milosevic, in particular, to go to The Hague and I've been calling for Putin to go to The Hague because I think that's what needs to be done.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. In the meantime, as this war continues, Shawn, it's interesting because satellite images, technology, I mean, even our own phones really play an integral role building up to Russia's invasion over the past year, right? We saw Russian troops amassing around Ukraine for months in advance.

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