Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Russia's Shifting Strategy; President Zelenskyy Addresses United Nations. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 05, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:01]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Ivanka Trump will meet with the House committee investigating the January 6 insurrection.

Sources tell CNN Ivanka Trump, who, remember, we all know, served as a senior adviser to her father, is appearing voluntarily and that that conversation will be conducted virtually. Her husband, Jared Kushner, met with the committee for six hours last week.

Hope to see you back here this time tomorrow.

Ana Cabrera pick up our coverage right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, and thank you for joining us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

The full depth of human tragedy, the scope of unthinkable human cruelty and unbearable pain inflicted by the Russians on the Ukrainian people has yet to be entirely revealed.

But what we know right now is hard to even put into words. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy tried to do just that as he addressed the United Nations today, describing in horrific detail what took place in Bucha and pleading with the world to punish Putin for war crimes.

A warning: His words and the images are disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Civilians were crushed by tanks while sitting in their cars in the middle of the road, just for their pleasure.

They cut off limbs, cut their throats, slashed their throats. Women were raped and killed in front of their children. They were -- their tongues were pulled out only because the aggressor did not hear what they wanted to hear from them.

The massacre in our city of Bucha is only one, unfortunately, only one of many examples of what the occupiers have been doing on our land for the past 41 days. And there are many more cities, similar places, where the world will -- has yet to learn the full truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: That truth that more cities will be found like Bucha now confirmed.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen and is on the ground in Makariv, a city about an hour's drive west of the capital. And, again, this report is so disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We came into Makariv, and the folks immediately said that we need to go here to the outskirts of it, because actually what's going on here right now is unfortunately more of the same.

And I'm sorry to have to show you this. There's a body collection team that they brought us to. And they found a body here. It was someone who apparently was riding his bicycle here when he was gunned down. The Ukrainians say he was gunned down by Russian forces.

Obviously, for us, it's very difficult to tell. But the teams here are doing something very similar than what we have -- as we have seen in Bucha as well, in that they're going around. They're getting called to places now the Ukrainians are back in control of this area, and being called to pick up the dead.

And they say they have already today picked up 15 dead bodies. And as you can see, in the car there, there's several of those sacks, which are unfortunately also filled with corpses.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Now, Russia keeps denying these horrors.

We're on the ground to uncover the truth.

Let's get to CNN Ed Lavandera in Southern Ukraine.

And, Ed, we just got an additional video from yet another city destroyed. Fill us in.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Ana, remember, Ukrainian officials have been saying that what we have seeing in Bucha is just the tip of the iceberg.

All of this continues, as video is beginning to emerge now from a city not too far from Bucha and from where Frederik Pleitgen is reporting, a city called Borodyanka. And video and air -- and drone video of this scene is just devastating.

It's almost as if the city no longer exists, the main thoroughfare from the city, every building demolished in some sort of way. There's a sign that reads civilian traffic is prohibited. This is just devastating, entire apartment buildings reduced to rubble. It goes on for block after block after block.

This is the devastating reality that cameras are now able to capture, as Russian forces have evacuated these areas north of Kyiv, and journalists, independent journalists from around the world are able to get in there and see the devastation and the havoc that was wreaked by these forces on these communities.

And it is just devastating to see these pictures emerge and the horrific stories that will continue to emerge, but vitally important to tell all of this that is going on. And, again, this is the city of Borodyanka just in that area, that suburban area, about 30 miles northwest of Kyiv -- Ana.

CABRERA: It is so incredibly sad, so disheartening. It's heart- wrenching, Ed.

And that's where Russians have left. But in towns like Mariupol, they're not done. The bombing is still relentless in that decimated city. An estimated 100,000 people are still believed to be trapped. The aid can't get in. What more are you learning about the situation there right now?

LAVANDERA: Well, it still remains a humanitarian disaster.

[13:05:02]

The International Committee of the Red Cross has been trying since Saturday to take a fleet of buses in there to begin removing civilians that are still trapped; 100,000 people, according to officials, need to be evacuated from that city.

And, right now, the only way out is for civilians to drive themselves out to get to a city, I believe, that is about 20, 30 miles away. That is incredibly dangerous to do in a Russian-occupied area. We have heard over and over from people who have escaped villages and small cities like this who say driving these roads with Russian forces surrounding you is a death sentence, that it's just incredibly troubling to do.

It's not possible in many cases. But humanitarian organizations have been pleading for weeks now. And attempts to open up these corridors to get to Mariupol have failed day after day after day. This is a place where officials are saying that they have run out of adjectives to describe how bad the situation is in that city.

CABRERA: Ed, thank you. Stand by.

Let's head to Brussels now and Nic Robertson.

Nic, Russia continues to say these inhumane atrocities that we are now seeing in cities like Mariupol, like Bucha and others, are forgery, their words. But the proof and all the evidence against them is solid. Do they think they can just lie their way out of this?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: The satellite evidence that corroborates the facts on the ground absolutely pinpoint in Bucha that Russian troops were in control when those civilians were shot.

On the 18th of March, bodies were spotted by satellite lying on the ground. They were in the same places when the recovery teams went in after Russian forces pulled out. Their ambassador at the United Nations today saying they had gone into Ukraine as peacekeepers, not as aggressors.

And he said to the gathered chamber at United Nations, there isn't -- there aren't any eyewitnesses for this. It is groundless and baseless.

Russia continues to throw up these denials. This is their default position. It's what they have done in Syria. It's what they have done in Georgia. It's what they have done in other conflicts they have been involved in, which is deny, obfuscate, dissemble, tell lies, so that people are told false narratives, and it becomes -- they want it to become a situation where it's so confusing, people don't know what the truth is.

But the technology has shown that. And Russia doesn't seem to care that it's ultimately going to be found out or it even may be ultimately punished. Why?

Because all they are trying to do is buy enough time to limit the support for Ukraine, to limit the sanctions on them. This is what they're trying to do through their lies, so they can continue their land grabs in Ukraine. They want to go to a negotiating table over Ukraine, with the land that they are setting out to get, which seems to be the south and the east of the country.

This is why there lies, their bold-faced lies are being told against all the evidence to the contrary, because they're just buying time, it seems, nothing else, not credibility.

CABRERA: Nic Robertson and Ed Lavandera, thank you both for your ongoing reporting.

We have breaking news now out of the White House.

Phil Mattingly is joining us.

What can you tell us, Phil?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, the horrors of Bucha have really accelerated nonstop negotiations and conversations between Western officials, Western leaders about what to do to impose costs on Russia because of what they have put into place in Ukraine.

And we now know that, tomorrow, according to an administration official, the U.S., in coordination with the E.U. and their G7 allies, will roll out a sweeping new sanctions package, a package that will ban all new investment to Russia. It will also ramp up sanctions, many of which are already in place at a lower level.

They're going to scale those sanctions up on financial institutions, on state-owned enterprises, really the critical industrial capacity of the Russian economy up to this point. This comes just a couple of hours that the Treasury Department announced that Russia can no longer pay -- use dollar denominations held in U.S. banks to use to pay off its debt payments.

These are all really critical steps that are being taken. And you're seeing immediate action a global stage in response to Bucha, Ana.

CABRERA: All right, Phil Mattingly at the White House for us, thank you.

Again, those sanctions expected tomorrow. Secretary of State Antony Blinken did not mince words when he talked about the horrific acts carried out in Bucha.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: What we have seen in Bucha is not the random act of a rogue unit. It's a deliberate campaign to kill, to torture, to rape, to commit atrocities.

The reports are more than credible. The evidence is there for the world to see. This reinforces our determination and the determination of countries around the world to make sure that, one way or another, one day or another, there is accountability for those who committed these acts, for those who ordered them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:10:10]

CABRERA: Let's discuss this with Ambassador Stephen Rapp. He is the former U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes issues. He is now a distinguished fellow for the prevention of genocide at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum.

Ambassador, thanks for joining us.

You just heard the secretary of state there. How will Russia be held accountable?

STEPHEN RAPP, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR-AT-LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES: Well, they will be held accountable in the court of law.

The case is before the ICC. Jurisdiction has been given by Ukraine; 41 countries that have moved the case then before the prosecutor. These are war crimes. There's no question about it, killing people on bicycles, old ladies in the backyard, the horrendous crimes of people's hands tied behind their back. Of course, the challenge will be attributing these up the chain, but

what Russia is doing, in its denials, actually is, it's implicating itself, even at a higher level, because, if a country fails to punish these acts, the leaders are responsible for the acts directly in an international court.

I would note also the Ukrainian prosecutor. And we look for Ukraine to remain independent and to be prosecuting other people at a lower level. And all of us have to work very hard with them and with the actors on the ground to develop the strongest evidence to make possible these cases. But they will happen.

CABRERA: But what's so painful and the thought of it eventually coming is a hard pill to swallow right now, when these horrors may be continuing.

Russia is still there. And they still have cities like Mariupol cut off from the rest of Ukraine. Things could be uncovered there that are worse than we have already learned in cities like Bucha. So what could be done to stop the potential war crimes that are ongoing, not to be retroactively punishing and holding people accountable, but to be ending and preventing more crimes from being committed?

RAPP: Well, obviously, we want to see the Russian forces defeated and defeated according to the laws of war and stopping these crimes.

But it's important to note that the international system of justice involves prosecuting crimes that have already happened. But by doing it in a consistent way, you send a message to actors not to commit them in the future. And, frankly, Russia's gotten away with murder in other situations of individuals through poisonings in the West and the way in which it participated in the attacks on the civilian population and the destruction of Aleppo and Darayya, and the attacks on hospitals and humanitarian infrastructure.

All of those things, they got away with. And that's part of the problem. We can't -- if we didn't -- if we focused more on Syria, and making sure there was accountability for that, we wouldn't have perhaps these crimes today.

But all we can do now is to build the solid cases, and then press the advantages that we have with these sanctions. If they don't answer the arrest warrants, the sanctions don't come off. But that's the kind of leverage that worked when we brought Milosevic from Serbia or Charles Taylor from Liberia to justice.

And it could happen even at the highest levels here, hard as that is to imagine today.

CABRERA: We just reported that new U.S. sanctions are coming. We have seen countries like Italy and the Netherlands today just expelling Russian personnel.

Why is that just happening now? Why hasn't the world levied the maximum penalties at this point? RAPP: Well, I mean, there was hope, I suppose, that there would be

graduated sanctions and that, as things got -- if they got worse, there would be another step and another hammer to fall.

And, of course, we all know that these things are a two-way street. We obviously see it at the gas pump. When you do take action against a powerful country like this, there's going to be a rebound and effect on us. But we have got to be prepared to pay the price.

It's nothing like the price that the people in Ukraine are paying with their lives and their blood and the destruction of their country with death raining out of the sky, when they haven't done anything to Russia. I mean, what did these people ever do to Russia? And, suddenly, it happens to them.

We need to be prepared for the dislocation. And that's a difficult political calculation for every country, certainly for those countries like Germany that depend heavily on Russian oil and gas.

But I think that will have to come too if we really want this to stop. Of course, essential that we provide the defensive weapons to prevent the Russians from succeeding in Ukraine, and then -- and then not require Ukraine to accept the occupation of their territories in return for peace, because we see what happens when Russians occupy these territories.

[13:15:04]

CABRERA: Yes.

RAPP: People don't accept it. And the answer is horrible, brutal action, torture, rape, murder.

CABRERA: Ambassador Stephen Rapp, thank you very much for joining us. It's such an important discussion...

RAPP: Good to be with you.

CABRERA: ... one that is not over yet, obviously, as we continue to cover the atrocities happening in Ukraine right now.

Thanks again.

An unsettling warning from a top us general. Joint Chiefs Chairman General Mark Milley says the world is becoming more unstable.

And it has been more than five years since former President Obama stepped foot in the White House. That all changes today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We are witness to the greatest threat to peace and security of Europe and perhaps the world in my 42 years of service in uniform.

The Russian invasion of Ukraine is threatening to undermine not only European peace and stability, but global peace and stability that my parents and a generation of Americans fought so hard to defend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley there, testifying on Capitol Hill earlier today.

Let's discuss with Major John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute, and CNN military analyst Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Colonel, first, your reaction to General Milley's testimony there calling this invasion the greatest threat to peace and security of Europe and perhaps the world in 42 years of his service in uniform. Do you agree?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I do, Ana.

I think it's one of the most important statements that the chairman could make. And, quite frankly, when you look at the atrocities that have occurred in Ukraine, what you're looking at is a complete game- changer in not only the way we are going to be reacting to this war, but also in the way these wars are fought.

So it's going to require a major relook at the way we do things and a major relook at how we posture our military for these kinds of conflicts.

CABRERA: What do you mean it's going to be changing how wars are fought?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think one of the big things, Ana, that we're looking at here is not only do we have to worry about counterterrorism efforts, like we did in Afghanistan and Iraq, but we also are going to have to worry about conflict in places like Europe on broad plains like this, where we thought that this kind of thing was not going to happen, because we had assured peace after the Second World War and then after the Cold War.

But that's, in fact, not the case, as we see with everything that's going on here and what could happen in the future. And then, of course, we have got Major Spencer here to talk about the urban piece of this.

CABRERA: Yes.

LEIGHTON: That's going to be a major factor, I think, in the future.

CABRERA: The battle in Ukraine is entering a crucial phase, NATO says with a very concentrated attack in the east expected now, Major Spencer.

The Donbass region there is vastly different from the big city urban warfare that we saw around Kyiv. What's Ukraine's best strategy out there? How do they avoid getting pinched?

MAJ. JOHN SPENCER (RET.), MODERN WAR INSTITUTE: Yes, so one is, you need intelligence.

And the Ukrainians are being fed the best intelligence in the world. And that's their -- one of their biggest weapons is just to prevent the Russians from doing what we know they need to do. They need to surround those elements, and they need to defeat them.

But Russia already lost the war to take Kyiv. So, they're trying to do anything they can to create some type of win. So there is plenty of urban, to be clear, in the Donbass. So -- and defense is always the strongest form of war.

But the Ukrainians have also shown the ability to be effective at counterattacks and to attack logistical supplies. And one of the things that this has taught us is that terrain still matters. Urban defense really matters, but there's only a few roads going to where the Russians need to go. So tear them apart.

CABRERA: Colonel, you are there at the map. What areas or cities are still in the most danger right now, based on what we know of Russia's strategy?

LEIGHTON: Yes, Ana, the -- so, right now, I would say Kharkiv, Izyum, Mariupol, of course, as being the area that has the most destruction that we know about right here, and Odessa. I would pick these four cities as being in the most danger at the moment.

The other thing that I would say is that this area right here, the city of Dnipro, is probably the most suspect in terms of where the Russians may go, because that would then -- if they go here from either the north or the south, they could then cut the country in two. And that is one of the biggest dangers I see from a strategic perspective at the moment.

CABRERA: Major Spencer, I want to talk about Mariupol, that city that's been under constant Russian bombardment, cut off from the rest of the country. People are trapped there. Red Cross officials can't get in.

And yet U.S. defense officials say that city isn't under complete Russian control yet. So what does that signal to you about strategy and the strength of the Russian forces?

SPENCER: Well, one, it shows is, the Russians are really bad at urban warfare.

They have had weeks to surround and cut off that city. And they're committing war crimes. They need to let the civilians out. They need to let aid get in. But they're showing that they can't even -- when they have overwhelming numbers and the tactical situation, that they can't do urban warfare.

One of the paradoxes of urban warfare is that the more you bomb an urban area that you need to take, the harder it's going to be. And that's the lesson they're learning really fast, because, in Mariupol, a bombed-out building is easier to defend than a not-bombed-out building. Rubble is a natural military bunker.

[13:25:06]

So the defenders are in a rough place. And any aid and anything that we can do in all forms of our power, national power, whether that's diplomatic information, military, needs to go there. But the Russians are going to pay a very high price to take Mariupol, even to this day.

CABRERA: Well, Major John Spencer and Colonel Cedric Leighton, I appreciate both of you. Thanks so much for sharing your expertise with us.

It has been more than 10 years since former President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act into law. And who could forget that moment?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ladies and gentlemen, the president the United States of America, Barack Obama.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BIDEN: This is a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Former President Obama's back at the White House today for the first time since he left office to celebrate one of his administration's key accomplishments.

We will take you there live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)