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Bucha In Ruins After Russian Troops Retreat From Town; Growing Horror Over Scenes Of Brutality In Kyiv Suburbs; Kharkiv Targeted By Russian Attacks Since War Started; CNN's Crew Close Call With Artillery Fire Near Mykolaiv; Polish Schools Welcome Ukrainian Children Fleeing War; Zelenskyy: Killings In Bucha Are Evidence Of Genocide; Shanghai To Stay Under Lockdown Amid Surging Cases. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired April 05, 2022 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:00:44]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm John Vause live in Lviv, Ukraine. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. Thank you for joining us for our breaking news coverage of Russia's brutal military offensive now in to day 41.

The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy expected to address the U.N. Security Council in just hours, meeting that is almost certain to focus on the apparent massacre of civilians in the town of Bucha, just outside the capital Kyiv.

Zelenskyy visited Bucha on Monday to see the death and the destruction firsthand. He says there's evidence that more than 300 people were killed, tortured, while Russian troops occupied this town, and the White House is warning Bucha will not be the last.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We should be under no illusions that Russia will adjust its tactics, which have included and will likely continue to include wanton and brazen attacks on civilian targets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: This is just some of the destruction left behind in Bucha after weeks of fighting, but it's the human toll which is truly disturbing.

And a warning, the images you're about to see are graphic and hard to watch. Bodies now littered at the streets of Bucha. It looks like many were just left where they fell. This video one of the many showing what Russian soldiers left behind when they pull back from the Kyiv area.

And yet, the Kremlin is claiming its all fake, dismissing these horrific scenes in Bucha as little more than propaganda.

Satellite images, though suggests otherwise. Take a look at this. On the left, still showing a video taken Friday showing bodies in the street. On the right, satellite images taken more than two weeks ago, showing what appears to be those same bodies lying in the exact same (INAUDIBLE).

The images coming out of Bucha has sparked outrage around the world and global leaders say the atrocities will not go unpunished. Officials from the U.S. and U.K. are calling for Russia to be suspended from the U.N. Human Rights Council. The U.S. and its allies also promising additional sanctions, the President of the European Parliament, arguing that those measures need to hit hard and happen soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTA METSOLA, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT PRESIDENT: We need to step up our strategy of making this illegal invasion the costliest mistake that the Kremlin has ever made, and the hit to Russia's economy must be proportionate to the unprecedented atrocities that we are seeing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: The dead bodies piling up in Bucha as official search this one's affluent out a suburb of Kyiv. And increasingly the dead show signs of torture while satellite images show mass graves were being dug in Bucha as far back as March 10th, two weeks after the Russian invasion began.

We have more details now from CNN's Fred Pleitgen, but first, another warning. The images you will see are disturbing and graphic but they reveal the brutality and sheer cruelty of what happened in Bucha under Russian occupation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ukrainian authorities in Bucha lead us into a basement they call a Russian execution chamber. It's a gruesome scene, five bodies, their hands tied behind their backs shot. The bullet casings collected by Ukrainian Police, pockmarks from bullets in the walls.

The Ukrainian say these men were killed when Russian forces use this compound as a military base while occupying Bucha.

An advisor to Ukraine's Interior Minister not even trying to conceal his anger.

After the liberation of Bucha, five corpses of civilians were found here, he says, with their hands tied behind their backs. They were shot in the head and in the chest. They were tortured before.

Even the body collectors find it hard to keep their composure.

PLEITGEN: Vladislav Minchenko (PH) is usually a painter. Now, he collects the dead left behind after Russian forces retreated from Bucha.

This is not what we learned in school, he says. Do you see my hands? Hundreds, hundreds of dead. Hundreds, not dozens.

The Kremlin has denied Russia was behind any atrocities in Bucha.

Now, the Russian say the notion of their troops having killed civilians is all fake news and propaganda, but it does seem clear that they were here. That looks like a sort of foxhole position and over there, they seem to have dug in a tank.

[00:05:08]

On the outer wall, the letter V, a symbol that Russian forces painted on their vehicles before invading this part of Ukraine.

Now, a lot of Russian military hardware lies destroyed in the streets of Bucha and other towns around Kyiv as the Ukrainians made a stand and prevented Vladimir Putin's army from entering the capital city.

Images published shortly after Russian forces left Bucha show many corpses lying in the streets. Some bodies had their hands tied behind their backs. President Biden calls what happened here a war crime.

While visiting Bucha, Ukraine's President vowed to bring those behind the violence against civilians to justice.

These are war crimes, he says, and they will be recognized by the world as genocide. You are here and you can see what happened. We know that thousands of people were killed and tortured, tared limbs, raped women and killed children.

And still, the dead keep piling up. Many lay in this mass grave behind the main church and Bucha. Local authorities tell us around 150 people are buried here but no one knows the exact number and here, too, the scenes are tragic.

Vladimir (PH) has been searching for his younger brother, Dimitri (PH). Now he's convinced Dimitri lies here, even though he can't be a hundred percent sure.

The neighbor accompanying him has strong words for the Russians.

Why do you hate Ukraine so much, she says, since the 1930s, you've been abusing Ukraine. You just wanted to destroy us. You wanted us gone. But we will be -- everything will be OK. I believe it.

But more corpses are already on the way. At the end of the day, we meet Vladislav and the body collectors again. Another nine bodies found in this tour alone and it's unlikely there'll be the last.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Bucha, Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Let's bring in Samir Puri. He is a Senior Fellow in Urban Security Hybrid Warfare at the International Institute for Strategic Studies. Thank you for being with us, sir.

The word genocide is often misused is often overused. Here in Ukraine, there appears to be intent, there are actions and there are dead bodies, many showing signs of torture. From what we've seen so far, and what we're likely to see in coming days, is the Russian military guilty of genocide? And does that go all the way to Vladimir Putin?

SAMIR PURI, SENIOR FELLOW IN URBAN SECURITY HYBRID WARFARE, INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES: Well, absolutely, a centralized decision making system in Russia means that Putin clearly personally ordered this invasion and the bucks stops with him and his senior leadership.

I mean, if these are mass, you know, human rights abuses, if these are mass killings, it is genocide. In some respects, the semantics don't matter. What matters is the brutality that has been brought to the outskirts of Kyiv, these areas in which the Russian advance was halted. And this has huge implications for how Russia prosecutes the rest of this war, especially in the East, but also, for the international legitimacy. If there's anything left of that, of Vladimir Putin and his senior leadership.

VAUSE: Speak to that for a moment because clearly, many people will say, well, what does it matter if it's a genocide of its war crimes? The Russians won't pay any attention to it. They never have in the past, they never will in the future.

PURI: Yes, and I think one of the big on the ground implications is that Russia has said in the last couple of weeks, it wants to reorient its military offensive to the Donbass, to the East of Ukraine, where I served for a year as a ceasefire observer, in the first incarnation of the war.

And back then, in Donetsk and Luhansk, there was still some sort of support for the idea of Russia, presiding over these regions. But now, if you're in Eastern Ukraine, from Southern Ukraine, and you're seeing this footage, even if the war hasn't come to your doorstep, would you honestly accept a Russian occupation and that has a big implication for whether Russia can actually take these territories and occupy them, or whether it will face sustained insurgency and civil resistance?

VAUSE: Do you think Putin has completely redefined what was considered a victory here as he changed the goals to something which is more attainable being the Donbass region? Or does he still have designs on all of the country?

PURI: That's absolutely right. And clearly, he's withdrawn from the surrounding outskirts of Kyiv. He's obviously surrendered the military objective of regime change, which would have involved moving into Kyiv and forcibly evicting or killings Zelenskyy, that's no longer possible, you're seeing where Russia's advance was halted.

So, Russia has indeed reoriented its goals to take in the Eastern and Southern parts of Ukraine. And I have to say, even though it's going to be harder to occupy these territories, simply taking them and holding them is more of a manageable objective than taking Kyiv.

So, I think we should be really concerned that Putin might actually resigns Russia's military ambitions to something that's a little bit more capable -- that the Russian military more capable of achieving, which is to take the East and the South, the whole sum of those territories forcibly.

[00:10:15]

VAUSE: Well, it seems unlikely the Ukrainians will force every last Russian soldier out of this country, especially on their own. The U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan would not say if the Ukrainians can actually win this war. Here he is, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: We believe that our job is to support the Ukrainians, they will set the military objectives, they will set the objectives at the bargaining table. And I'm quite certain they are going to set those objectives at success. And we are going to give them every tool we can to help them achieve that success.

But we are not going to define the outcome of this for the Ukrainians, that is up for them to define in us to support them in, that's what we're going to do. And we do have confidence in the bravery, skill and capacity of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and the resilience of the Ukrainian people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: So, what does winning actually look like for the Ukrainians? What's the victory here?

PURI: Well, so there's -- the U.S. has been tentative in making specific claims as to what victory could look like, because it's now going to come down to the battlefield performance of Ukrainian Armed Forces in counter attack. And this we don't know.

We do know, of course, that NATO nations, the U.S., the U.K., Poland, and others are providing support, they're providing military support, there might be more military equipment, Ukrainians crew Soviet star military equipment from Eastern European NATO countries. All of this plus moral victory, Ukraine has had of retaking environments around Kyiv might give them a push to build and retake more territory through counter attacking.

But warfare, all warfare is a gamble, ultimately, and these counter attacks could fail. They could succeed in some areas and not others. So, we just don't know how much of its territory Ukraine can retake.

But one very quick final points on this. Ukraine has got the double issue of retaking territory it's lost this year since February 24th. But also, the territory lost in 2014. Further in the Donetsk and Luhansk in the East of Ukraine. And so, there may be a case that Ukraine takes back some but not all territory, and that may be where the war is headed in the coming weeks. VAUSE: Samir Puri, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate your time and your insights. Thank you, sir.

Well, Ukraine's Defense Ministry warning Russian forces are attempting to capture Kharkiv as they shift their offensive towards the East, Ukraine's second largest city is located nearly at Russia's border. Russian forces tried to take Kharkiv in the early days of the war, but they were pushed back by Ukrainian defenders.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour traveled to the city, she met with residents who've been sheltering underground to see firsthand the devastation left by Russia's previous assaults and a warning again, some images in her report are graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Here in Kharkiv, former Ukrainian capital, second biggest city and one of the most important cultural sites, the great 19th century poet Taras Shevchenko is hunkering down for the rest of this war. Workers covered him in sandbags against the kind of destruction that's pounded the city center since the start.

The most spectacular strike was this one. A month ago, a Russian missile slams low and hard straight into the corner of the regional administration building.

The missile struck right here. And the idea of hitting a building like this is to deny the legitimacy of the state. But the terror against civilians continues, playground by playground, mall by mall, park bench by park bench.

Which is what we find in this residential neighborhood. People were sitting outside chatting on a Sunday afternoon, kids were playing, we find the telltale pattern of a mortar that landed right here. Authorities say seven people were killed in this neighborhood, many more were injured.

Kharkiv sits 40 miles from the Russian border. It is the last major city before Donbass, where Russia is directing its war effort to the East.

Just last week, the nearby village of Malaya Rohan was liberated from the Russians. This civilian says he was captured and held.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was taken hostage and they took me to the office for interrogation. The office said: You are a saboteur. No, I am a civilian, see all my documents, my registration. I live here. I came just to ask: Don't shoot at our houses.

AMANPOUR: When dusk falls, children are outside playing and getting the last bit of fresh air before descending underground into one of the capitals many subway stations.

After 40 days of war, they have turned their temporary homes into a neighborhood. Some have even decorated with fresh flowers. Zena (PH) says she's been living down here since the beginning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, this is my house. This used to be my house. Now, we cannot live here, obviously because it has been bombed three times in a row.

[00:15:07]

AMANPOUR: But this is a safe space for you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, absolutely.

AMANPOUR: And for the kids?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, absolutely.

AMANPOUR: Kids do what kids do, homework and handicrafts. Even this is organized. Marina (PH) works for an organization that plans ways to keep the children busy, entertained and their minds off the trauma.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here, we are equipped the playing grounds, this place for kids, where they can play with the toys, we've been practicing, make puzzles and to do the things they did in their usual life before the war.

AMANPOUR: But the trauma is never far away, as we found in this underground station, where civil defense are teaching kids how to protect themselves, how to recognize weapons and ordnance, and to remember never to touch. The adults are shown how to protect themselves in case of a chemical weapons attack.

Even this maternity hospital was damaged in a mortar strike. Now, the basement has been turned into a shelter and delivery room, if necessary. Birth, life continues. We met Alina (PH) 30 minutes after she had delivered baby Yaroslava (PH).

How are you feeling?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, she's (INAUDIBLE) my first daughter.

AMANPOUR: Your first daughter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: Your first child?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: As we are leaving, she tells us: I love my country. I love my daughter, my family, my husband. And in the delirium of new motherhood, she says: Everything will be great for us.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Kharkiv.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: Still to come this hour, the sign there is evidence that the horrors of Bucha will not be the last. There are new images emerging from the outskirts of Kyiv as Ukrainian forces retake territory. We'll have details ahead.

But first, reporting on the war and getting a little too close to the incoming fire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down here, John, down here. Keep on rolling.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[00:20:21]

VAUSE: For weeks, the southern city of Mykolaiv has endured relentless Russian bombardment. The latest strikes hit a residential neighborhood. The mayor says at least 10 civilians were killed on Sunday and Monday. Nearly 50 others were wounded. Were told some victims are in very severe condition and the death toll is likely to rise.

The mayor added that Russia's targets so far include the Mykolaiv hospital, kindergartens, and schools.

And not far from Mykolaiv, CNN's Ben Wedeman and his team were a few 100 feet away from incoming artillery fire. They stopped to talk to Ukrainian soldiers, they're out in the open with little cover and to be sure this was a close call. One crew car so badly damaged it was un-drivable, the other also damaged would still they are able to reach safety. Here's Ben's report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): This is an area where there's been a fair amount of outgoing as well as incoming artillery. Down the road is a town that has been fought over for several days by Russian and Ukrainian forces.

WEDEMAN (voice over): In these vast open spaces, the Russians seem far away, they're not.

Down here, John, down here. Keep on rolling. You see it over there?

We hugged the earth. Two more artillery rounds. Cameraman John Torigoe keeps rolling. Already, so we had two incoming rounds responding to artillery that's been firing in the Russian directions. Those shells came pretty close to us.

No one has been injured. The officer tells translator Valeriia Dubrovska we need to go now.

VALERIIA DUBROVSKA, TRANSLATOR: Go away, you need to run (PH).

WEDEMAN: OK. (INAUDIBLE). And so, we run with full body armor to the cars. One car can't move, peppered with shrapnel.

We're losing petrol.

No time to lose. Throw it in the back. Driver Igor Tiagno (PH) razor focused on getting us to safety. His car also hit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go.

All right, we're now we're trying to get out of this area as quickly as possible. Our other car completely destroyed.

[00:25:01]

WEDEMAN: Crammed into this small car, we approached safer ground.

KAREEM KHADDER, CNN PRODUCER: We're going to (INAUDIBLE) cover that village and then, we'll take a breather.

Producer Kareem Khadder checks the damage to the car. The soldiers we left behind are still out there. We could leave, they can't.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, outside Mykolaiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: OK, coming up here, a Polish teacher, Ukrainian children, Google translate to the rescue, more on that in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VAUSE: Welcome back, everybody. Wll, the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is set to address the U.N. Security Council in the coming hours. As shocking images from Bucha continue to spark a global response.

[00:30:10]

Some countries are expelling Russian diplomats, while others are vowing further sanctions, and that includes the United States, which expects to add some new sanctions this week.

All this as more horrific images emerge. And a warning. You're about to see some graphic pictures.

Bodies can be seen lying on the streets, on a number of them with their hands tied behind their backs, bullet wound to the head. Ukraine's foreign minister warns scenes like this are just the tip of the iceberg. And the head of Human Rights Watch fears, these images could be, quote, "replicated on a very large scale."

Ukraine's president says more than 300 people were killed in Bucha but expects that number to rise as the entire city is checked. And he warns civilian casualties may be even higher in other liberated cities. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): There is, already information that the number of victims of the occupiers may be even higher in Borodyanka and some other liberated cities. And many villages have deliberated districts of the Kyiv, Chernihiv, and Sumy regions. The occupiers did things that the locals are not seeing, even during the Nazi occupation, 80 years ago. The occupiers will definitely bear responsibility for this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VAUSE: And these images just keep coming from the outskirts of the Ukrainian capital. And, again, a warning: what you are about to see is disturbing. It appears to show the bodies of the town's mayor, her husband, and son.

The Ukrainian deputy prime minister telling CNN earlier, the three were brutally murdered by Russian forces. All three, she says, were shot in the head.

Well, Poland has taken in more Ukrainian refugees than any other country. Most of them, women and children. Now, many of those children are trying to head back to school. But, many teachers in Poland don't speak Ukrainian, and students don't speak Polish. So they found a way to work things out.

Here's Kyung Lah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To learn of (ph) the full scope of war, take a seat in Miss Magda's (ph) classroom. She's a Polish teacher, using Google Translate to communicate, in Ukrainian, with her new foreign students.

Her class has grown by 40 percent this month. New children, who've just fled the only home they've ever known.

(on camera): They're translating, on the Internet, as you teach.

MAGDA (ph), TEACHER: Yes, because I only know the Polish language.

LAH: How important is it for you, as a teacher, to help these kids?

MAGDA (ph): (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) Very important.

LAH (voice-over): Primary school 157, with bilingual classes, has welcomed every new refugee. Classes are more cramped, but these public-school students don't complain, because they feel they already know the strangers sitting next to them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, a lot of kids have come to our school, and some of them have told stories about what happened. They've left people that they left behind.

LAH: Edward Shuschevsky (ph) is 13 years old, a Polish student, seeing the influx of war survivors come through his school doors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The more we take in, the better we're doing.

LAH (on camera): The better?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mm-hmm.

LAH: So, you don't mind that the rooms are crowded?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. It's for a good cause.

LAH: So, these are all Polish kids?

(voice-over): Eva Grunate (ph) is the vice director.

EVA GRUNATE (PH), VICE DIRECTOR: It's hard.

LAH: She feels for every child in the building and only wishes she could do more.

GRUNATE (PH): Especially when I see people helping. I just don't know if we can help in only a small part.

LAH: Warsaw's mayor tells us the strain on his city's schools is enormous. The 100,000 additional refugee children in Poland's capital need an education. It's an increase of 30 percent, just this last month.

Lazar Tomodenko (ph) is 13. He's from Kyiv.

(on camera): Your mom is here.

LAZAR TOMODENKO (ph): Yes.

LAH: Your father?

TOMODENKO (ph): No, he's still in Ukraine.

LAH (voice-over): Lazar's (ph) father is a minister, helping fight in the war. It took a week for Lazar (ph) to escape Ukraine with his mother. School offers the structure of a life he's lost.

(on camera): Your favorite subject is?

TOMODENKO (ph): Math.

LAH: Math. You like math.

TOMODENKO (ph): Yes.

LAH: Is it easier being around other Ukrainian kids?

TOMODENKO (ph): Yes, he says. We can talk. They understand.

LAH (voice-over): Of the 4 million refugees fleeing Ukraine, half are children, paying the price of adult sins. (on camera): How hard is it for kids your age to live through this?

[00:35:03]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's practically impossible to go through this. It's just mind-boggling how this could happen to someone that young.

LAH: The school told us they're not experts in dealing with war trauma. And there just isn't a system yet in place to deal with these kids who are coming into the school. Despite the strain, they say not one single child will be turned away.

Kyung Lah, CNN, Warsaw, Poland.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: If you would like to help the people of Ukraine who are in need of shelter, food, water, medical supplies, pretty much everything, please go to CNN.com/impact. There, you'll find ways to help, and you can be confident that the money you give will go to the people in need.

A lot more from Ukraine at the top of the hour, but for now, let's hand it over to Rosemary Church, live at CNN world headquarters there in Atlanta.

Rosemary, good to see you.

ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And good to see you, too, John. Take care. We'll see you at the top of the hour.

Well, authorities in Spain have seized the yacht of a Russian oligarch at the request of the United States. On Monday, Spanish and American officials raided the vessel, which belongs to Viktor Vekselberg. He is a close ally of Vladimir Putin and had been sanctioned by the U.S. over Russia's war on Ukraine.

The seizure of his yacht was the first one conducted by a U.S. task force which cracks down on sanctions violators.

Well, time for a short break. When we come back, horrific scenes in Bucha, Ukraine, are fueling global calls for war crimes charges against Russia. We will have more on that when we come back.

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[00:40:43]

CHURCH: You are looking at drone footage of destruction in Mariupol, Ukraine, a city under siege for weeks now by Russian forces. The mayor says Mariupol is on the brink of humanitarian catastrophe, with more than 100,000 people in need of evacuation.

He says the city hasn't had food, water, or medicine in more than a month. And the situation is, quote, "very difficult." The Red Cross says another attempt to reach Mariupol failed on Monday,

due to security issues. A Red Cross team has been trying to enter the city since Saturday to provide humanitarian aid and help with civilian evacuations.

Well, the horrific scenes coming to light in Bucha, Ukraine, are prompting calls from around the world for war crimes charges against Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, you have to get all the details, so this can be -- we'll actually have a war crime trial. This guy is brutal, and what's happening in Bucha is outrageous. And everyone's seen it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHURCH: The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court defines a war crime as a grave breach of the 1949 Geneva Conventions, or the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict. Civilians, prisoners of war, wounded members of the armed forces, and those who have surrendered, can be victims.

Offenses include murder, mutilation, torture, intentionally attacking civilians, rape, hostage taking, and the destruction of property without military justification.

So let's turn now to Beth Sanner. She's a CNN security analyst and a former U.S. deputy director of national intelligence. Thank you so much for joining us.

BETH SANNER, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Thanks for having me.

CHURCH: So Ukraine's President Zelenskyy is calling the brutal murders in Bucha evidence of genocide. But U.S. President Joe Biden isn't willing to go that far just yet, although he call these killings war crimes, and he wants a trial to hold Vladimir Putin accountable.

Why is this distinction between genocide and war crimes so critical when we're dealing with the brutal execution of civilians, some found with their hands tied behind their backs?

SANNER: I'm not sure, in some ways, that it is important, in one aspect. And clearly, when someone like President Zelenskyy is talking about genocide, it is meant in the way that, I think, all of us look at what's happening and just say, you know, there are terrible things happening here. These are atrocities, and clearly, the wanton destruction and attack of civilian infrastructure of hospitals, all the things that we've seen, it looks and feels like genocide to all of us. Right?

But, you know, from a technical standpoint, it's about legalities. Right? And so scholars will tell us, what is genocide? What isn't? What are the terms? And there has to be a process.

And the key part of that process is to determine whether there is intent by leadership to destroy a nation or a people, or part of it.

And so this distinction becomes important when it's an illegal issue. And you know, so, in some ways, of course, that -- that matters. But not right now. I think what matters is this sense of outrage.

CHURCH: Yes. Absolutely. And White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan says Russia is now repositioning its troops to concentrate its operations in the East and parts of Southern Ukraine. He says all indications are that Russia's military will try to surround and overwhelm Ukrainian forces and says the next stage of this conflict may be protracted.

Do you agree with his assessment there?

SANNER: I do. I think that, you know, right now, the idea of a negotiated solution, given what has happened, and President Zelenskyy's remarks saying, you know, it's kind of hard to see how one can negotiate in the wake of -- of these atrocities, with perpetrators.

[00:45:14]

So there's that. And there's the idea that Ukrainians, given this in particular, but already, were not willing to give up an inch of Ukrainian territory.

And so, that leaves us back to the battlefield. And Putin needs to create some facts on the ground that look like winning. And that means a concentration of forces, where they can actually try to capture more territory. And so we're going to see a lot more fighting.

The Russians are in no mood to compromise.

CHURCH: And on that subject, U.S. intelligence suggests that Putin is hoping to declare some -- declare some level of progress, perhaps even victory, on May 9.

How would that be received, given what we've all witnessed in terms of Russian troops deaths, failures, withdrawals on the battlefield and, of course, civilian rapes and executions as they retreat? And what does Putin think victory looks like?

SANNER: Well, I think something like the May 9th parade, which is the celebration, which is the celebration of the defeat of the Nazis during World War II, at the end of World War II. That has made for a domestic audience and is part of the narrative that Putin has.

Putin doesn't have a narrative of killing civilians. He has a narrative of glory over neo-Nazis. And so that is why, you know, it's going to be defined for that -- that domestic audience.

Putin doesn't care what the world things right now. We've already declared him a war criminal. We have -- we're talking about adding sections, not taking them away if there's a peace settlement. So this really isn't about us.

CHURCH: All right. Beth Sanner, thank you so much for talking with us. We appreciate it.

SANNER: Thank you.

CHURCH: And still to come, Shanghai extends its lockdown as it waits for results from the latest round of mass COVID testing. How the city is faring against its worst outbreak yet, when we return.

Plus, the North Carolina Tarheels versus the Kansas Jayhawks with everything on the line. We'll tell you who made March Madness history.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [00:51:47]

CHURCH: Officials in Shanghai say the city will stay under lockdown as new COVID infections continue to surge. The Chinese city is in the midst of its worst outbreak since the pandemic began.

Authorities finished a second round of city-wide testing on Tuesday with the help of more than 10,000 healthcare workers brought in to help manage the outbreak.

CNN's Selina Wang joins me now from Tokyo with the latest. Good to see you, Selina.

So, how have people in Shanghai been coping with this lockdown? And now, of course, news that it will be extended in the midst of surging cases?

SELINA WANG, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rosemary, it's been incredibly frustrating for the Shanghai residents. They've already been angry before this latest announcement. Now there's no end in sight for this lockdown.

The city-wide lockdown that went into effect last week was only supposed to last a few days. And now authorities are saying that, as these cases continue to skyrocket, reaching record highs in Shanghai, that this lockdown will continue until further notice.

And Rosemary, many of these residents, Shanghai's 25 million people, many of them have already endured weeks of strict home confinement, have been desperately trying to seek medical care. They've been struggling to get daily essentials. There are countless complaints online of people waking up at 5 a.m., just trying to buy some groceries online, only to see that everything has already sold out.

The medical system, as well, is being stretched to the limit. Now, while China has recorded most of its COVID cases as asymptomatic, or mild, every single COVID case, symptomatic or not, has to go to a hospital or to a centralized quarantine facility.

And many residents have complained about the conditions at these facilities. There are social media online in China that shows a chaotic scene outside of a makeshift hospital in Shanghai.

We spoke to a woman who was actually there. And in the video, you can see patients literally battling each other for blankets and food. There is no medical staff in sight.

There have also been video circulating online, showing children, even infants, being separated from their families after testing positive for COVID-19. That has sparked further outrage. And we don't know how many families have been affected by that policy, but we do know that it includes U.S. citizens who have been separated from their children because of that policy.

But Rosemary, despite this huge economic and social cost, China's authorities are still doubling down on this zero-COVID strategy. And it's clear that they think the alternative is worse, which could be 1.4 billion people exposed to this virus, with a lagging vaccination rate among the elderly population, completely overwhelming the healthcare system.

But, this zero-COVID strategy is pushing -- is being pushed to the limit, and it's also pushing people's patience to the limit -- Rosemary.

CHURCH: Most definitely. Selina Wang joining us live from Tokyo. Many thanks.

Well, congratulations to the Kansas Jayhawks, the 2022 men's college basketball champions. They beat the North Carolina Tarheels 72-69 in a thrilling game Monday night in New Orleans. Kansas trailed by as much as 16 points in the first half, but they made the record books with the largest comeback in title game history.

Fans were celebrating back in Lawrence, Kansas. And this is the fourth time in school history that the Jayhawks have won the men's championship. Well done.

Thank you so much for spending part of your day with us. I'll be back next hour with more. And our breaking news coverage continues with John Vause, live in Lviv, Ukraine. That's next.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VAUSE: It is day 41 of Russia's war on Ukraine. Hello, everybody. I'm John Vause, live in Lviv, Ukraine. We'd like to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world.

We begin this hour with growing outrage over the brutal and horrific scenes coming from the town of Bucha just outside the capital of Kyiv.