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Ukraine Warns of Higher Death Tolls in Liberated Areas; New Images Undercut Russian Claims Bucha Videos are Fake; Growing Horror Over Scenes of Brutality in Kyiv Suburb; Zelenskyy Accuses Russia of War Crimes, Genocide; European Lawmakers Urge New Sanctions on Russia; CNN Crew's Close Call with Artillery Fire Near Mykolaiv. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired April 05, 2022 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us in the United States and all around the world. I'm Max Foster in London. We're following breaking news out of Russia's war on Ukraine just ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down here, John. Down here. Keep on rolling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The image from Bucha so powerfully reinforced, now is not the time for complacency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They could not take our cities. They couldn't take our freedom. So, they (INAUDIBLE) as guilty of our people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything that Putin and his cronies and his soldiers so-called give to the Ukrainian people, this is war crimes and crimes against humanity.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Half measures are not enough anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

FOSTER: It's Tuesday, April 5th. It's 11 a.m. in Ukraine where officials are warning that the atrocities, we've seen in Bucha, could be just the tip of the iceberg as Ukrainian forces retake more towns from the Russians. The mounting evidence of potential Russian war crimes will likely come up later today when president -- Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy addresses the U.N. Security Council.

New satellite images underscore the brutality of Russia's occupation of Bucha. And a warning, the images you're about to see are disturbing. Take a look on the left, still some more video taken Friday showing bodies lying in the streets. On the right, satellite images taken more than two weeks ago when Russian forces still occupy Bucha show what appear to be those same bodies lying in exactly the same spots. There's more evidence that undercuts Russia's claim that the images coming out of Bucha are fake. And now the White House is warning this could also happen in other parts of Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: At this juncture we believe that Russia is revising its war aims. Russia is repositioning its forces to concentrate its offensive operations in eastern and parts of southern Ukraine rather than target most of the territory. All indications are that Russia will seek to surround and overwhelm Ukrainian forces in eastern Ukraine.

The next stage of this conflict may very well be protracted. We should be under no illusions that Russia will adjust its tactics which have included and will likely continue to include wanton and brazen attacks on civilian targets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Already we are seeing gruesome images like this one begin to emerge from other towns near Kyiv. It appears to show the bodies of the town's mayor, her husband and son. Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister told CNN earlier all three were shot in the head.

To the east in the Donbas region a local official says the situation in Luhansk is growing more difficult with heavy shelling and street fighting and amid the violence and horrors of this war, Ukraine's president delivered a message to Russian mothers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Russian mothers, even if you raised looters, how do they also become butchers. You couldn't be unaware of what's inside your children. You couldn't overlook that they are deprived of everything human. No soul, no heart. They kill deliberately and with pleasure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: The images and stories from Bucha as well as other parts of Ukraine have sparked global outrage. World leaders say the atrocities will not go unpunished. Officials from the U.S. and U.K. are also calling for Russia to be suspended from the U.N. Human Rights Council. We'll have more now from CNN's Fred Pleitgen. But first a warning you are about to see disturbing graphic images but they reveal the brutality and sheer cruelty of what happened in Bucha under Russian occupation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ukrainian authorities in Bucha lead us into a basement they call a Russian execution chamber. It is a gruesome scene. Five bodies. Their hands tied behind their backs. Shot. The bullet casings collected by Ukrainian police. Pockmarks from bullets in the walls. The Ukrainians say these men were killed when Russian forces use this compound as a military base while occupying Bucha. An adviser to Ukraine's interior minister not even trying to conceal his anger. ANTON GERASHCHENKO, UKRAINIAN INTERIOR MINISTER'S ADVISOR (through translator): After the liberation of Bucha, five corpses of civilians were found here, he says, with their hands tied behind their backs. They were shot in the head and in the chest.

[04:05:00]

They were tortured before.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): Even the body collectors find it hard to keep their composure. Vladislav Minchenko is usually a painter. Now, he collects the dead left behind after Russian forces retreated from Bucha.

VLADISLAV MINCHENKO, VOLUNTEER BODY COLLECTOR (through translator): This is not what we learned in school, he says. Do you see my hands? Hundreds. Hundreds of dead. Hundreds, not dozens.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): The Kremlin has denied Russia was behind any atrocities in Bucha.

PLEITGEN: Now, the Russians say the notion of their troops having killed civilians is all fake news and propaganda. But it does seem clear that they were here. That looks like a sort of foxhole position. And over there, they seem to have dug in a tank.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): On the outer wall, the letter "V," a symbol that Russian forces painted on their vehicles before invading this part of Ukraine. Now, a lot of Russian military hardware lies destroyed in the streets of Bucha and other towns around Kyiv as the Ukrainians made a stand and prevented Vladimir Putin's army from entering the capital city.

Images published shortly after Russian forces left Bucha show many corpses lining the streets. Some bodies had their hands tied behind their backs. President Biden called what happened here a war crime. While visiting Bucha, Ukraine's president vowed to bring those behind the violence against civilians to justice.

ZELENSKYY (through translator): These are war crimes, he says, and they will be recognized by the world as genocide. You are here and you can see what happened. We know that thousands of people were killed and tortured, teared limbs, raped women, and killed children.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): And still, the dead keep piling up. Many lay in this mass grave behind the main church in Bucha. Local authorities tell us around 150 people are buried here but no one knows the exact number. And here, too, the scenes are tragic.

Volodymyr (ph) has been searching for his younger brother, Dmitri (ph), now is convinced Dmitri (ph) lies here even though he can't be 100 percent sure. The neighbor accompanying him has strong words for the Russians.

LIUBOV, BUCHA RESIDENT (through translator): Why do you hate Ukraine so much, she says. Since the 1930s, you've been abusing Ukraine. You just wanted to destroy us. You wanted us gone. But we will be, everything will be OK. I believe it.

PLEITGEN (voice-over): But more corpses are already on the way. At the end of the day, we meet Vladislav and the body collectors again. Another nine bodies found in this tour alone. And it's unlikely they'll be the last.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Bucha, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: For more on the crisis in Bucha and other cities in Ukraine, let's bring in Oksana Pokatchuk. She's the executive director of Amnesty International Ukraine. Thank you for joining us.

OKSANA POKATCHUK. EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL UKRAINE: Thank you for inviting me.

FOSTER: How would you define the level of war crime that we're seeing there in Ukraine based on the evidence?

POKATCHUK: Of course, we have to collect evidence and we have to wait for adults of -- examination of bodies, pointed examination. But now what we see already by pictures of the media is horrific testimonies of apparent war crimes. And in my opinion, I do agree with what's already said a couple of minutes ago, that what we see here in Bucha is only the tip of the iceberg of future horrific new testimonies. Because what we will see when Mariupol will be liberated, I think will look be the biggest shock.

FOSTER: What's very important is to gather that evidence, isn't it? The Russians denying, they were in these places, for example, where the mayor was killed, even though our reporter seemed to see evidence that the Russians had been there. But it's very important, isn't it, to get that evidence now so it can be used later on and a lot of, you know, resources needed for that. So, what do you see going into that effort?

POKATCHUK: Exactly. That's a very good question. Because now what all of us, we are shocked with this video and pictures and of course, it will be huge work to be done by prosecutors, by researchers.

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But one of the biggest and important work now in the hands of experts who will do medical examination, forensic examination of the bodies, and sorry, remains of bodies. And Ukraine never was prepared for such a huge number of bodies that need to be examined. And the quality of this examination is quite important because these examinations will be the base, the base of the future testimonies that Ukraine will launch to different international judicial authorities, ICC, or International Court of Justice or maybe something else that will be developed. We'll see soon.

So, it's quite important, you know, to have high quality of this forensic examination. And what it's trying to address is that if countries, different countries may support Ukraine in this, it would be really, really important to support us in sending experts who might quickly support us in this, you know, writing and checking bodies and remains of bodies.

Because we have two issues, first is that bodies of women who were raped, tortured and killed. But on the other hand, we have bodies of Russian soldiers and we have to do something with them. Yes, they have to be examined, too. They have to be -- they have to go through the medical examination, their bodies, too. And this is quite important, you know, because it's a future testimonies. And it is important even for Russian citizens, you know, we have to give them evidence that their soldiers was here -- and in the ideal world, of course, we have to return those bodies to the territory of Russia. But --

FOSTER: I just want to ask you a question. President Zelenskyy is speaking at the U.N. Security Council today. He will be claiming there's been genocide there. The Americans have said there hasn't been genocide there or there hasn't been evidence so far of genocide there. But what do you hope Zelenskyy will achieve in front of the Security Council today?

POKATCHUK: First of all, I think that the situation we are now in is quite a big challenge for the institutions, human rights institutions. Because they were developed to prevent all of us and all countries from what we see now. And my expectation is that intelligent people who are now there, who are representatives of their countries on such a high level will find a solution of how we can make those institutions really work. Not to be like deeply concerned about something but do real steps to support civilians.

FOSTER: OK, Oksana Pokatchuk from Amnesty International Ukraine, thank you very much. Appreciate your time in joining us today.

In Brussels, the European lawmakers held a minute of silence for the victims of Bucha and all of the innocence who've died in Ukraine. The European Parliament President said the invasion needed to be the costliest mistake the Kremlin has ever made and she called for forceful new sanctions against Russia. Meanwhile, the EU announced the joint investigation with Ukraine into alleged Russian war crimes and crimes against humanity. CNN's Nic Robertson is following all of this live from Brussels. You've just been listening to Human Rights Watch there basically saying this is now a big test for those big institutions, the U.N., the European Union and whether or not they act on what we're seeing coming out from towns like Bucha.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has said that they will, that they will work with Ukrainian investigators, but they will provide assistance so that evidence can be examined and processed and used in an International Criminal Court. And of course, in the European Union there is a good degree of experience of trying international war criminals, of processing vast amounts of data. One thinks that what the International War Crimes Tribunal, on the former Yugoslavia did in terms of exhuming the bodies of the thousands who were massacred by Bosnian Serb nationalists in what they did in Srebrenica in 1995.

[04:15:00]

So, there is a skill set and there is an intent and certainly what we heard the European Parliament President Roberta Metsola speaking about yesterday, speaks not just to that support but also to sanctions. The finance ministers here today discussing precisely what those sanctions should be. Roberta Metsola set a very high bar for what they should reach for. This was her explaining it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTA METSOLA, EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT PRESIDENT: We will need to step up our strategy of making this illegal invasion the costliest mistake that the Kremlin has ever made. And the hits to Russia's economy must be proportionate to the unprecedented atrocities that we are seeing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: So, EU leaders and ministers have been talking publicly about targeting Russia's energy supplies to the European Union and questions. It appears to be which part of those energy supplies, gas, coal, oil. Oil and coal looking perhaps the most likely. Europe is still too dependent on gas. But the finance ministers today talking about what other sanctions loopholes can be closed for some of the banks that have been removed from the SWIFT system.

And also, very importantly for Russia, particularly in its military technology sector, is to deny Russia access to Western top end technologies, microchips and these sorts of devices. So, the effort here is to produce a new layer and round of sanctions on Russia and that would be for the European Union a fifth round of sanctions -- Max.

FOSTER: As we were going around CNN international, we were hearing from also, you know, Ukrainian politicians. We're going to probably see a lot worse. Are we? This was one small town on the outskirts of Kyiv where cameras have been allowed in. I can only imagine what's going on in Mariupol and places like that. What sort of discussions are being held about how to prepare for even worse news coming out in terms of human rights?

ROBERTSON: The discussions here are really focusing on how to stop Russia perpetrating these kind of acts again. And of course, Russia has tried to deny this. It's tactics seem to many people, medieval, and absolutely barbaric. And Russia has tried to shroud them, if you will, in the fog of war by saying that they didn't happen.

The satellite technology clearly tells a very different story. It says that these murders in Bucha of civilians happened while Russia was in control. And that's certainly the strongly held view here at the European Union as well.

And it does seem that Russia is trying to fight a war using previous technologies and tactics thinking it could get away with it and lie and get away with it. But the high-tech capabilities now of satellites and of cell phone imagery to record in close to real time of these events is counting against Russia. And is counting as mounting evidence that really strengthens the resolve of the European Union. It is harder for Russia to hide behind its disseminations and disassembling of the situation when the evidence speaks counter to that. The European Union is going with what it can clearly see.

FOSTER: Nic Robertson in Brussels. Thank you very much.

Aid workers in the front lines of the Ukrainian refugee crisis say they're running out of resources. Coming up, the pleas for help as officials urge the world not to forget about those fleeing the war.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: The U.S. National Security Adviser warns Russia is revising its war aims and shifting its focus to the east. But Russian troops are still hammering southern cities like Mykolaiv. And not far from Mykolaiv CNN's Ben Wedeman and his team wound up dangerously close to incoming artillery fire. Here's the report

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is an area where there's been a fair amount of outgoing as well as incoming artillery. Down the road is a town that has been fought over for several days by Russian and Ukrainian forces.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): In these vast open spaces, the Russians seem far away. They're not.

OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here Ben?

WEDEMAN: Down here, John, down here. Keep on rolling. You see it over there?

WEDEMAN (voice-over): We hugged the earth. Two more artillery rounds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, shit.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Cameraman John Torigoe keeps rolling.

WEDEMAN: Well, alrighty. So, we had two incoming rounds responding to artillery that's been firing in the Russian directions. Those shells came close pretty to us.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): No one has been injured. The officer tells the translator Valeriia Dubrovska we need to go now.

VALERIIA DUBROVSKA, TRANSLATOR: They said, go away. Like, hit and run!

WEDEMAN: OK, OK. I don't think it's safe. I hope the car is OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you ready to leave?

WEDEMAN: Yes, let's go.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): And so, we run with full body armor to the cars. One car can't move. Peppered with shrapnel.

WEDEMAN: We're losing -- we're losing petrol.

DUBROVSKA: I can't --

WEDEMAN (voice-over): No time to lose.

[04:25:00]

DUBROVSKA: Throw it in the back.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Driver Igor Tiagyno (ph) razor-focused on getting us to safety. His car also hit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go, go, go!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go, go!

WEDEMAN: All right. Now we are trying to get out of this area as quickly as possible. Our other car completely destroyed.

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Crammed into this small car we approach safer ground.

KAREEM KHADDER, CNN PRODUCER: We are getting into a hard cover then we'll take a breather

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Producer Kareem Khadder checks the damage to the car. The soldiers we left behind are still out there. We could leave. They can't.

Ben Weidman, outside Mykolaiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: The U.S. says it's supporting a multinational team of prosecutors and experts to collect, preserve and analyzing evidence of possible war crimes in Ukraine.

The invasion has forced millions from their homes but the majority heading for Poland. The country's border guard says nearly 2.5 million people have crossed from Ukraine since the invasion began. Some aid workers say they're exhausted and lacking resources. CNN's Salma Abdelaziz joins us now from Medyka in Poland near the country's border with Ukraine -- Salma.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER: Max, this is the pedestrian border crossing. So, people come here with only what they can carry with them. You can see that crossing just behind me here. And you'll see families coming across rolling their bags. And I want to show you what greets them. Often times you'll see volunteers standing there. They're going to grab their bags. They're going to help them with what they can and they're going to bring them across to here.

To essentially a tiny little village community packed with volunteers. You can see them in high viz jackets. And what want to do is offer these families a warm smile, a warm cup of tea, a bit of help. They want to answer their questions and they want to give them a sense of dignity, a sense of normalcy. And these volunteers come from all over the world.

So, we're just going to pan around here because I want to introduce you to one of these volunteers if we can. This is Sam. He's come from London.

SAM RIDGE, SIOBHAN'S TRUST VOLUNTEER: Yes, London.

ABDELAZIZ: Sam, why did you come all the way out here?

RIDGE: This is actually the second time I came. I've, you know, been moved by the plight of people. You got a lot of elderly people who lived their whole lives and they sort of decided had to go after retirement and found everything bombed and they've had to move here. You have kids who were meant to be in school. You had the Mariupol boys football club to come through. So, they're lovely, lovely people. And unfortunately, they've had everything stripped from them and removed.

ABDELAZIZ: And tell me, what do you all offer? I see you have the signed here, free hugs.

RIDGE: We've got hugs. We've got pizzas. We've got sandwiches. We've got soup. We've got pasta. We've got sweets, coffee, chai. We've got everything you want for. We got a few people who speak Ukrainian as well, which is fantastic. So, translation is offered as well. And moving bags we go to and from the border. So, we go across to Ukraine and we come back. We're stopping trolleys, give up food and soup for free.

ABDELAZIZ: That's amazing. Just tell me about having been here for as long as you've been here. The need that you're seeing.

RIDGE: Yes, the need it's heartbreaking. You see kids who are coming across they've got everything they can carry. And that's their possessions. They don't know where they're going. There's a degree of uncertainty. They're going towards the buses and then they got set up for their entire life again. You meet people who are halfway through university and they've got to kind of re-establish everything back in Germany not knowing what's happened to maybe their father, son, husbands.

ABDELAZIZ: I've seen you guys offering literally an endless stream of cheese toasties, grilled cheese, of course, for the Americans like myself and hot pizza. What does that offer these families? When they're coming across, they are fleeing violence and they finally get that warm meal. How does that feel?

RIDGE: Yes, it's a sense of warmth and then wholesomeness as well. It's like some of the queues are very long as well. There's been snow, there's been sleet, there's been so much wind. It's quite windy today. It's probably going to rain in a bit. So, your standing in a queue for six, seven hours. It used to be 13 or 14 hours. So, you come across and you have something nice and warm. It's just a bit of hope if anything. It's almost symbolic for a bit of hope if anything.

ABDELAZIZ: Thank you so much, Sam. Thank you so much.

And Max, there's really volunteers from all over the world here. And a him gain, you can only bring with you what you can carry. So, if there's anything a family needs from a baby stroller, to milk, to some clothes, anything at all they can get it right here.

FOSTER: Wonderful. Salma, thank you very much. Joining us from Poland.

Much more ahead this hour including the Russian oligarch linked to a Colorado steel mill. What it means for the workers just trying to make a living. CNN's Drew Griffin investigates next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you consider this a Russian-owned company?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't. We're headquartered, independent operation in Chicago. We have our own CEO. We have our own Board of Directors. We're based in London. Yes, the parent company has a large footprint in Russia.

GRIFFIN: So, your position is that these are completely s separate entities?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not saying they are completely separate ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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