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U.N. to vote on Suspending Russia; Russia Targets Civilians; Kevin Ryan is Interviewed about Fighting in Eastern Ukraine; Nicolas de Riviere is Interviewed about Suspending Russia from the Human Rights Council. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 07, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:27]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A crucial vote this morning as world leaders look to hold Russia accountable for its aggression and atrocities in Ukraine. Next hour, the U.N. General Assembly will decide whether to suspend Russia from the U.N.'s Human Rights Council. The move follows the discovery of hundreds of bodies, civilians left behind after Russian troops withdrew from the area around Kyiv.

A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. Good to be with you on set here in New York.

SCIUTTO: Nice to be here.

GOLODRYGA: Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is ramping up his plea for the west to impose stricter sanctions on the Kremlin. He said Putin will see a weak response as, quote, permission to start a new bloody wave in Donbas.

Ukraine's foreign minister also bringing a pointed message to Secretary of State Antony Blinken when they meet in the next hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: My agenda is very simple, it has only three items on it. It's weapons, weapons, and weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Overnight, Ukrainian officials say their air defenses shot down three Russian cruise missiles near the city of Zaporizhzhia. Our team on the ground says they did hear what sounded like an aircraft and then one loud explosion. Many people there now have fled the chaos unfolding in Mariupol.

Local officials estimated more than 5,000 civilians, 5,000, have been killed in the besieged city. Just imagine that.

In another hard-hit area, the town of Bucha, just outside of Kyiv, officials have put a curfew in place now, partly to clear unexploded mines left behind by Russian troops.

GOLODRYGA: President Zelenskyy says there are mines left throughout the country by Russian troops there.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Let's begin this morning with CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson, at NATO headquarters.

Nic, the United Nations General Assembly would need a two-thirds majority vote to suspend Russia from the Human Rights Council. I traveled with the U.S. ambassador to the U.N. over the weekend, who was confident that the votes were there. So how significant would this move be?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: If this happens, it begins to walk President Putin down the -- down the path towards becoming an international pariah. We know there's pressure to exclude Russia from the G-20. If the votes can be secured at the -- at the General Assembly vote, and remembering here that a -- that an abstention does not count, so Russia, we understand, is pressuring its friends and allies to vote for no, so those votes don't get wasted, if you will. But if it passes with that two-thirds majority, then Russia is going to find itself more isolated, not only facing economic sanctions, not only facing international human rights scrutiny, but also now facing -- not being able to take its place on the international bodies that it so cherishes.

This is what President Putin likes. He likes to have Russia on these important international bodies because he thinks it shows a stature of Russia. This will be another blow to that. Would it stop him fighting the war in Ukraine? Probably not.

SCIUTTO: Nic, the EU is still working to agree on a fifth round of sanctions against Russia. Can you explain what exactly is in this package, and is there any movement towards really what is the white wale of these sanctions, right, which is going after Russia's energy sector, oil and gas exports?

ROBERTSON: Yes, so coal, they're banning coal. But, you're right, it's the -- it's the oil and the gas that's the real big-ticket item. And that's where there's been a lot of pressure on the European Union. We don't know precisely what the divisions are internally, but we know that for some countries gas is something they -- or Russian gas is just not something that they can do without at the moment. The EU's made a commitment to cut down Russian gas by two-thirds this year.

However, they are targeting other things like Russian banks, Russian shipping, can't use European Union ports, high tech items not to be exported to Russia, like rare semiconductors. So, the issue facing the European Union now is to try to find that agreement. And it seems to be going more slowly than anticipated. We're told a -- the decision could come today. It could come tomorrow.

European Commission president is in Kyiv tomorrow. So you'd think they'd want to get it done before then.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Nic Robertson, in Brussels, thanks so much.

So we are getting new evidence today, hard evidence, of Russian troops directly killing civilians. We do want to warn you that the video, some of it you're about to see, is disturbing. We consider it important to show because this shows the evidence of what's happening on the ground in this war.

[09:05:05]

This particular video captured by drone operators who have been able to see those crimes, or evidence of those crimes from the air.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, they're also using the technology to help the Ukrainian army fight back.

CNN's senior international correspondent Frederik Pleitgen reports from outside of Kyiv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OLEKSANDR RADZIKHOVSKY, BUGATTI COMPANY, UKRAINE TERRITORIAL DEFENSE FORCES: Be careful. Just move, move, move from the road.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's like a scene from the gates of hell. The dead lay strewn across this highway west of Kyiv, some still next to the wreckage of their vehicles, as the dogs roam around looking to scavenge.

This is what Russian forces left behind when they retreated from here.

RADZIKHOVSKY: They organize ambush over there. We are (INAUDIBLE).

PLEITGEN: Oleksandr Radzikhovsky tells me these were civilians, gunned down from this position, where the Russians had placed a tank.

RADZIKHOVSKY: And you can see it's actually (INAUDIBLE) a shooting zone (ph). You see?

PLEITGEN (on camera): Yes.

RADZIKHOVSKY: And this car, look, they're sort of in line. There is no cars here because they would not let them come. They just shoot as soon as they approach.

PLEITGEN (voice over): The Russian government denies targeting civilians. They call such allegations, quote, fake and propaganda. But Oleksandr is part of a drone unit and they filmed one incident.

It was March 7th when the Russians were still in full control of this area, and a group of cars was driving down the highway. They turned around after apparently taking fire from the tank position. This car stops and the driver gets out. Then, this.

RADZIKHOVSKY: He has raised his hands above his head and this moment he was shoot by -- on this place.

PLEITGEN: Two people were killed that day, Maxime Uvanko (ph) and his wife Senia (ph), who was also sitting in the vehicle. The family has confirmed the identities to CNN.

After the incident, the drone filmed Russian troops getting two further people out of the car and taking them away. It was the couple's six-year-old son, and a family friend traveling with them, the relatives confirmed. Both were later released by the Russians.

The soldiers then search Maxime's body and drag him away.

This incident both traumatizing and motivating for Oleksandr's drone unit.

RADZIKHOVSKY: In normal life, before the war, we were civilians who liked to fly drones around casually and just like make a nice video, YouTube videos. But when the war began, we become actually vital part of the -- of the -- of the -- of the resistance.

PLEITGEN: Oleksandr sent us hours of video showing his team scoping out Russian vehicles, even finding them when they're hidden and almost impossible to spot, and then helping the Ukrainians hit them.

RADZIKHOVSKY: We are eyes. We call eyes because with eyes you can see and you can report. And as soon as you see, you can conduct strikes, artillery, air strikes.

PLEITGEN (on camera): How long does it take to get your information to the right places to then be able to act on the intelligence that you provide?

RADZIKHOVSKY: In good time it's about matter of minutes.

PLEITGEN (voice over): And sometimes a little mosquito can take out a whole herd of elephants.

This is drone footage of Oleksandr's unit searching for a massive column of Russian tanks and armored vehicles. And this is that column after the drones found it.

Oleksandr's tells me units like his played a major role fending off Russian troops despite the Ukrainians being vastly outgunned.

RADZIKHOVSKY: We're agile (ph) as a surgical (ph) offense. We can -- oh, we don't want to -- (INAUDIBLE) we need to go. But the army, they have to stay. They're ordered to stay. They stay. They're dying but they stay and they're holding this ground (ph). PLEITGEN: Nobody knows how many Russians died here, but the group says it was many, taken out with the help of a band of amateur drone pilots looking to defend their homeland.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Mula (ph), Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: It's such an important report, right, because you're hearing a lot of claims about this. Russia is straight up claiming it's all lies. You see in the video there, he came out of the car with his hands up and he's shot.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And you see the devastation there, and the lack of humanity, really, on the part of Russian soldiers, violating rules of war there, right?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: With the help of technology, we're able to verify some of that.

Well, joining us now is retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Kevin Ryan. He previously served as the defense attache to Russia and deputy director of army strategy plans and policy. He's now an associate fellow the at the Harvard Kennedy School's Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs.

Brigadier General Kevin Ryan, thank you so much for joining us.

So, as you just saw, with the help, obviously, of the west providing technology and military aid to the Ukrainians, I'd like to get you to respond to what we heard out of the Pentagon just yesterday calling this war indeed very winnable in their view for the Ukrainians at this point.

Do you agree?

BRIG. GEN. KEVIN RYAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, I think there is, at the tactical level, there are a lot of things that the Ukrainian military can win, can do. You've seen -- showed some of them just now on clips from the region. It's not going to winnable in a sense that Ukraine can totally kick out Russian forces from the land that they've taken so far and occupied.

[09:10:03]

I don't think that's within the capability of the smaller, but braver Ukrainian armed forces.

But they certainly can roll back on the edges, Russian forces, and we've already seen them successfully counterattack in various areas around cities where Russia either was going to pull out or was -- was thinking about pulling out. So, there are things that the Ukrainian military can win. SCIUTTO: Short of direct NATO involvement, which is not going to

happen, or a no-fly zone, which U.S. and NATO officials fear would create direct involvement or direct conflict between U.S. and Russian forces, what's missing then, right, to help Ukraine successfully defend itself? They've got the anti-tank, antiaircraft missiles. They've had enormous impact on the battlefield, as you know, tanks are going in from the Czech Republic, high altitude missile defense.

So, what's missing? Is something missing?

RYAN: Well, the thing that's most missing are air defense systems, not stingers, but systems like the S-300, which can shoot down not only aircraft, but these cruise missiles and ballistic missiles. That's the big thing that's missing -- and I say it's missing because there are not a lot of sources for that equipment.

The other things which Ukraine is asking for, tanks, airplanes, armored vehicles, those things are not really missing, they're just not being provided yet. Now, the Czech Republic has just broken the ceiling on that and they're sending tanks, armored vehicles, et cetera, as you just mentioned. And this is a big improvement in the amount of support that Ukraine can expect and is getting. And I hope that that releases the floodgates and more of that is forthcoming. So, in the instance of that kind of support, we -- all we need now is more of it.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and on that note, I mean we heard this week, just from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Milley, say that this war should be measured not in months but in years, given than even if the weaponry is provided to Ukrainians, most of it right now appears to be old Soviet-made weaponry, if for no other reason than they're familiar with how to utilize it. They're going to run out at some point of those weapons. So, should the west, should the United States be leading the charge in providing more modern-day weaponry, given how long this could go on?

RYAN: Yes, I think the United States can do more in that regard. We're being cautious and I understand that. And that's a good policy to have. But within that caution there's room for us to do more.

You know, I want to caveat what I think General Milley is saying. There are -- there are different ways to look at this. The war is something which predates this invasion and goes on afterwards. It is a war between Russia and the west. Yes, that will go on for years. The fighting that we see now, that cannot go on for years at this tempo and pace because Russia is running out of troops, running out of units, new units and fresh units. That's why they're going to foreign fighters and bringing in soldiers from their own foreign bases.

So, the fighting at this level is going to be over in a few weeks, maybe a month or more, because Russia just cannot sustain this kind of combat. And so we'll see a cease-fire, maybe a frozen conflict. But, yes, the war will go on for years because it's a war between Russia and the west. SCIUTTO: Question, Putin does not recognize Ukraine as a country, as

an independent country. We heard it in his public speeches. He views it as part of Russia.

RYAN: Right.

SCIUTTO: So, if the immediate fighting ends in weeks, purely because Russia can't sustain it at this level, is that a short-term pullback or a long-term one?

RYAN: It's -- it's -- in Putin's mind he has gotten what he needs, which is land. He doesn't need the resources that are coming from this part of Ukraine. He wants a buffer between himself and the west. And he doesn't care what shape the land is in. It can all look like Mariupol as far as he's concerned.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

RYAN: He's looking for the buffer.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It can all look like Mariupol. And that is a frightening vision to imagine because, of course, the civilians bearing much of the brunt of that.

Brigadier General Kevin Ryan, so good to have you.

RYAN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Just the outlines of this war, it shocks you every day.

Coming up next, the French representative to the U.N. joins me live ahead of the vote to suspend Russia from the U.N. Human Rights Council. We'll discuss whether his country is ready to cut off Russian oil and gas.

GOLODRYGA: Also ahead, I'll speak to a reporter who has witnessed the atrocities in Bucha and Borodyanka (ph) firsthand.

And we're live at the U.S./Mexico border as Ukrainian refugees wait there to enter the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:19:22]

SCIUTTO: In the next hour, members of the U.N. General Assembly will meet for a special session to decide if Russia should be suspended from the U.N.'s Human Rights Council. My next guest will be at that meeting. With me now, Ambassador Nicolas de Riviere, he's permanent representative of France to the U.N.

Ambassador, thank you for taking the time this morning.

NICOLAS DE RIVIERE, PERMANENT REPRESENTATIVE OF FRANCE TO THE U.N.: Thank you. SCIUTTO: Your American colleague to the U.N. told my colleague Bianna

Golodryga that you do have the votes. That the U.S. and its allies do have the votes to suspend Russia.

Do you agree? Do you believe the vote will end up with Russia leaving the council?

DE RIVIERE: Well, I hope so. The vote will take place in two hours.

[09:20:03]

I believe we have the votes. Russia will be suspended and not -- kicked out of Human Rights Council. And I think this is right thing to do after all the things we have been witnessing, mass atrocities, war crimes. So it is time for accountability. We need the suspension. But we need also the international community (INAUDIBLE) to do its job. They started an investigation. And we need to (INAUDIBLE) there as well.

SCIUTTO: The Ukrainian president, Zelenskyy, said he believes that Russia has carried out a genocide in Ukraine. Do you share that view?

DE RIVIERE: Well, this is about war crimes, mass atrocities. As you know, the concept of genocide carries a lot of legal implications. So it will be for the court, the judges, to look at this, to decide. Again, what we need to see is a proper (INAUDIBLE) investigations, all mechanism put in place and, in the end, a trial, justice, accountability.

SCIUTTO: French President Macron, he has faced criticism, as you know, for keeping an open dialogue with Vladimir Putin. Poland's prime minister compared that to talks with Hitler. And I wonder, has Macron lost confidence in his relationship, in his dialogue with Putin? Will those contacts continue?

DE RIVIERE: Well, Jim, this criticism are just ridiculous. This is a war. This is, of course, the worst crisis in Europe since World War II. We need to fix it. We need this war to stopped now. Of course, we will use sanctions, we will use coercion. We provide defensive weapons to Ukraine. We continue to do so.

As you know, European Union is just about to adopt a fifth set of sanctions in the last six weeks. The pressure is huge on Russia. We want to isolate Russia. But we need to help Ukraine as well. And this is what we do. But we need to find a way out. We need to engage to talk. This is what the Turkish president is doing. This is what President Macron has been doing from the very beginning. We continue to try to engage.

Each time President Macron speaks to President Putin (ph), he does that in close coordination with President Zelenskyy. As you know, the two of them don't speak, Putin and Zelenskyy. So, we need this dialogue and the criticism against this dialogue is just (INAUDIBLE) irrelevant.

SCIUTTO: I want to get to sanctions in a moment, but let me ask you this. Putin denies that Ukraine is an independent country. I mean he does speak in similar terms that Hitler spoke. He does not recognize its right to exist. So, I wonder, what is the basis of dialogue, right? What is the path to an agreement here and would you trust an agreement with Vladimir Putin?

DE RIVIERE: Well, this is not negotiable. From the very beginning, what we have been witnessing is Russia in Latin violation of the U.N. Charter. Of course Ukraine is an independent state. By the way, Ukraine used to be a member of the U.N. under the Soviet Union. They had a seat, you know, since 1914 (ph) (INAUDIBLE). And now they remain an independent state. They are internationally recognized borders. They are a sovereign state. And this is all about restoring the right of Ukraine and I don't think any outcome, any peace agreement should ignore this reality. And the Russians will have to accept this.

SCIUTTO: We do have, as you know, a new round of sanctions targeting, among other things, the coal sector. But as you know, it's really oil and gas. The EU -- EU officials noted yesterday that since the start of this invasion, the EU has, in effect, sent $30 billion, $30 billion euros rather, to Russia, which is, of course, money for this war machine.

Will the next round of sanctions wean Europe off its dependence on Russian oil and gas?

DE RIVIERE: Well, we are increasing pressure dramatically. As I told you, I think we are just about (INAUDIBLE) fifth round of sanctions. As you just said, we will put ban on coal -- on Russian coal in the next days, in the next hours. The pressure is increasing.

Of course, more could be done and I really hope more could be done. I think more will be done if the situation continues to deteriorate, which I'm afraid would be the case.

The European Union is not exactly in the same situation that the U.S. We all know that the trade -- geographical and historical reasons, the trade between Russian and Europe is ten times bigger than the trade between Russia and the U.S.

[09:25:02]

And of course, because of history and geography, Europe is more dependent on the Russian oil and gas than the U.S.

As far as France is concerned, because of our (INAUDIBLE) program, we are very independent and we don't depend very much on Russia. The other members of the European Union are very independent (ph) and we need to find solution for that as well. But the message is very clear, the political choice has been made, we will continue to increase strongly the pressure on Russia as long as there is no solution. We were stunned by the people of Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: Final question, of course, elections in France coming in a few days' time. Macron will face Marine Le Pen. There have been questions in France about the possibility of Russian interference in this election in support of Le Pen. And I wondered, does the French government have any evidence of Russian interference?

DE RIVIERE: First, Jim, there are 12 candidates. Sunday will be the first round. So it will be for the French people to decide. Second round will be end of April. So we'll see who qualifies on Sunday.

It's true that in the past there have been interferences by Russia in our elections. We have done everything we can to prevent this and to have a free and fair election. And I very much believe it will be the case.

SCIUTTO: Ambassador Nicolas de Riviere, thanks so much for joining is us this morning.

DE RIVIERE: Thanks. Bye.

GOLODRYGA: Obviously, though, the two that you said there, 12 candidates, the two at the very top are Macron and Le Pen right now. We've seen their numbers skyrocket.

SCIUTTO: Yes. He did say, though, they're watching closely for that kind of interference. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: They are. They are. Well, they've passed, right, (INAUDIBLE).

Well, still ahead, I'll speak with a journalist who is sharing some heart-breaking stories from the civilians trapped at the front lines of the war.

And we're just moments away from the opening bell on wall Street. Futures pointing higher as investors watch whether the Federal Reserve will intervene more aggressively to curb inflation.

On Wednesday, the Fed released details that showed central bankers considered raising rates by a half percentage point at their March meeting, but Russia's invasion of Ukraine is causing concern as the war pushes energy and commodity prices higher.

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