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At Least 50 Killed After Russian Missiles Hit Train Station; Zelenskyy: Situation in Borodianka "Much Scarier" Than Bucha; Ukraine: Russia Preps Massive Breakthrough Attempt in East; China Helping Spread Russian Disinformation about Ukraine War; Film Academy Decides Fate of Will Smith Over Chris Rock Slap. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired April 08, 2022 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: So the strike that happened there this morning at that train station is receiving worldwide condemnation, talk of another example of war crimes committed by Vladimir Putin and his forces here in this country.

We have a sound byte from one of the men who runs the train system there in that eastern region of Ukraine. This is what he said about this morning's attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER KAMYSHIN, HEAD OF UKRAINIAN RAILWAYS: Yesterday, they bombed the bridge, which connects all the cities in Ukraine. And they keep shelling stations. They keep shelling trains. And they do whatever they can to stop the evacuation of civilians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: Ana, these train stations in many corners of the country have been the lifeline for hundreds of thousands of civilians to be able to escape to safety from the earliest days of this war. Those train stations have been the escape valve.

And an attack like this is chilling because it sends a clear message to the people on the ground that every move they make, any kind of move they make to try to reach safety becomes a much more treacherous and dangerous decision.

That's why today's strike is so chilling for the civilians left in eastern Ukraine.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: It must feel like there's no safe space.

Ed Lavandera, thank you for your reporting. Stay safe, my friend.

As the nation and really the world reels from that devastating train attack, Ukraine's president says work is under way to clear the rubble left in another city, Borodianka, now after Russians shelled that town northwest of Kyiv. Zelenskyy also warns more atrocities will be exposed. He says the

situation there is much scarier than Bucha where a mass grave was found along with evidence of civilians being massacred execution style.

Minutes ago, we learned that 164 bodies have now been recovered in Bucha, and more are expected.

CNN's Ivan Watson is in Vinnytsia in the middle of Ukraine.

Ivan, do we know what President Zelenskyy could be foreshadowing?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He is clearly concerned that there's going to be more evidence of loss of life. Not just in the suburbs and satellite cities around the capital.

But, of course, in that port city of Mariupol, which the Russian military has besieged for a month now, encircling, trapping more than 100,000 civilians inside and just pummeling that city day and night with artillery and rockets from land, sea and air.

He is suggesting that the Russians are preparing in this kind of information war to -- something that would make it look like the Ukrainians were killing people in Mariupol. Hard to say there.

But back to the satellite towns around Kyiv, this one community to the northwest, Bucha, that's where at least 26 bodies have been found under the rubble of two buildings. There were a lot of air strikes in that area.

The acting mayor spoke earlier today with our colleague, Brianna Keilar. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGII YERKO, ACTING MAYOR, BORODIANKA, UKRAINE (through translation): The city is completely destroyed in terms of its infrastructure. The power lines are down. Water and gas supply pipelines destroyed. Even sewage pipelines are destroyed so effectively, the city was turned into prehistoric conditions and it's uninhabitable at the moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATSON: Now it's worth noting, every time the Russian military is accused of atrocities, of killing civilians, the Russians deny and they say, well, it's basically the Ukrainians that are shooting themselves, which it's very hard to accept that kind of logic.

Even if you did, let's take a step back and recognize the fact that nobody would be dying in Ukraine, nobody would be dying if Russia hadn't invaded this country in the first place on February 24th -- Ana?

CABRERA: Ivan Watson, it is sobering. Thank you. Let's bring in retired Major General Dana Pittard. He is the co-author

of "Hunting the Caliphate, America's War on ISIS and the Dawn of the Strike Cell."

Also with us is former director of communication for U.S. National Intelligence, CNN national security analyst, Shawn Turner.

Shawn, every time Russian atrocities are uncovered, the Kremlin's response is, no, Ukraine did this, slaughtered their own people. That's the case with this train station attack.

They have clearly no problem lying, trying to turn the biggest tragedies into justification to take even more drastic actions against Ukraine.

Is anything off limits for Russia?

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, good afternoon, Ana.

[13:35:00]

You know, look, I think the one thing that is clear, as we continue to see an increasing number of senseless attacks on civilians across Ukraine, is that Russia -- Putin -- there's no military objective, particular military objective they're trying to achieve with these attacks.

So we must ask ourselves, what is Putin trying to achieve? Why is he doing this?

Look, Ana, I think that when the dust settles, if Putin is still standing, and if he is not in control of all of Ukraine, the one thing that he wants more than anything is for what remains of Ukraine to fear him at a level that he's never been feared before.

And so I think we just have to remember that, for decades, Putin has been someone who wants to return to the old days when it wasn't just those nation states in the region that feared Russia, but when it was the entire world.

Russia could demand respect from the entire world based on the threat of aggression.

And I think what we're seeing in these civilian attacks is that Putin is willing to do anything in his power to move Russia back in that direction.

This is not about the military. This is all about fear in Ukraine and fear in the region. That's what Putin wants more than anything because he knows, at this point, that he can't win militarily.

CABRERA: General Pittard, a Ukrainian military official says Russia's preparations for a massive breakthrough in the east are nearly complete. If this horrific train station attack and the widespread devastation

we've been reporting on in Mariupol are a preamble to an eastern offensive, what will this next phase look like?

MAJ. GEN. DANA PITTARD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good afternoon, Ana.

In many ways, I agree with Ivan Watson and Shawn Turner.

From a purely military standpoint, we've seen, over the past couple of days and this past week, the movement of Russian forces, as well as Ukrainian forces from the Kyiv region.

Russia had the dilemma of having exterior lines so they had farther to go to get to eastern Ukraine. Ukrainian forces used interior lines, roads, railways, to get to eastern Ukraine.

So from a strictly military standpoint, what the Russians had been trying to do -- and again, it's an illegal war. They should have never attacked Ukraine.

But from a strictly military standpoint, they are trying to interdict Ukrainian forces moving to the east. That includes rail lines. It includes roads.

At some point, I think the Ukrainian forces or Ukrainian government has to look at the dual use of railways so that civilians aren't put in harm's way, ideally.

So what the Russians are trying to do is break through the Ukrainian lines in the east. And the Ukrainian forces have to be careful because that might be a ruse itself.

Because there may be an envelopment from the Crimea area to envelop the Ukrainian forces in eastern Ukraine. So Ukrainian forces have to be very careful about that.

CABRERA: U.K. intelligence says Russian forces retreated from northern Ukraine into Belarus and Russia to redeploy through Russia to eastern Ukraine.

I do wonder, General, does Ukraine have the capability to hit that route Russians would need to take to redeploy?

PITTARD: They really don't. They have some capability, some localized capability to do that, but they do not have that capability overall. That's why they need help.

I know NATO and the U.S. have said we're helping, we're sending weapons, but they need more help. They need systems. They need the intelligence. And they are getting some of that.

But at some point, more steps need to be taken by the U.S. and NATO.

CABRERA: Shawn, we know the U.S. is sharing intelligence with Ukrainians to help with strategy in the Donbass region. But since the U.S. isn't on the ground, what type of intel is being provided, do you think?

TURNER: Well, it's a good question, Ana. I think that the type of intel that's most important is that intel that gives the Ukrainians some decisional advantage.

Normally, when we talk about the sharing of intelligence, we're talking about the sharing of intelligence between nation states, at the government level.

One of the things that I think the Intelligence Community has and continues to do very well is to collect and share intelligence at the operational and, in some cases, even at the tactical level.

And I think that's really important for the Ukrainians right now as we look at the Russians sort of re-evaluate and reassess their strategy. And as the Ukrainians get a new round of weapons.

And I think, as the general said, you know, they need systems. But these new weapons can be -- these new weapons, plus intelligence can be a real game changer for the Ukrainians.

Because it presents an opportunity for the Ukrainians to not only defend territory but also to take the fight to the Russians as they make these adjustments.

So I think that this combination, intelligence and new weapons, this is a very positive development for the Ukrainians.

[13:40:04]

And I think that we're going to see not only the Russians move into a new phase but we're going to see the Ukrainians move into a new phase with these new resources.

CABRERA: Shawn Turner and General Dana Pittard, thank you both for joining us. Appreciate your insights and your expertise here.

China may be trying to appear neutral, but it's media coverage of Russia's deadly Ukraine invasion sends a message that's anything but neutral, to a massive audience.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:26]

CABRERA: As social media outlets crack down on Russian disinformation and lies, the Kremlin is getting help from a powerful ally, China. A CNN analysis in the early days of this war show China largely repeating Russian state media stories.

And a new "Washington Post" piece piles on, stating, "China is Russia's most powerful weapon for information warfare."

Now Chinese outlets, on Facebook alone, have more than one billion followers, according to the Alliance for Securing Democracy. So huge reach. State-run media outlets in China are echoing Russian propaganda about

the war in Ukraine, even repeating Vladimir Putin's outrageous claim that it's nothing more than a special military operation.

Joining us now is Jessica Brandt. She's policy director for the Artificial Intelligence and Emerging Technology Initiative at the Brookings Institution.

Jessica, thanks for being here.

Why is China doing this? China doesn't really need Russia, does it?

JESSICA BRANDT, POLICY DIRECTOR, ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE & EMERGING TECHNOLOGY INITIATIVE, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Yes, I mean, I think China's serving its own interests here.

There's two places where I have seen China carry Russia's water. The first is, starting long before the invasion, casting blame at the foot of the United States and NATO.

These are institutions that constrain Beijing's interest just as much Moscow's.

And the other place, as you pointed to, is the biolabs conspiracy theory. Again here, China has an interest in raising skepticism about those labs.

Because it wants to promote a conspiracy theory that COVID began in just such a lab here in the United States. And that, of course, is to deflect blame for its own mishandling of the early stages of the pandemic.

CABRERA: What is the broader impact if Russia, with help from countries like China, are able to effectively cloud the public's understanding of what is really happening.

BRANDT: We've seen a slew of policies put in place in recent days and weeks to curb the spread of Russian disinformation, and in particular Russian state media.

In some cases, those policies apply broadly to Chinese state media as well but in many cases, they don't. So what we're seeing is sort of an effort to skirt around emerging policies. And that's nothing new, right?

Our detection capabilities and our platform policies, you know, take one step forward and Russian activities take a step around.

I think in terms of the effect of Russian messaging, I think it's important to remember that Russia's using multiple channels, from Telegram to Twitter, you know, TikTok and, of course, its state media.

And so there are many ways these messages reach American, European and Ukrainian audiences. And as well as Russian audiences, too.

CABRERA: But as we talk about the wrong information getting to a massive amount of people, I wonder how susceptible are people? Does the average Chinese citizen buy into the Russian propaganda?

BRANDT: Probably I think we're in a much different place than we were eight years ago, in 2014, when Russia invaded Ukraine and took control of Crimea and areas of eastern Ukraine.

And I think one sort of enormous advance has been, you know, that Western governments have been playing a really useful, novel strategy of trying to get ahead of Putin's moves with a remarkable series of intelligence disclosures that I think really prepared the information space.

It created sort of a ground swell of support among the European and American public among -- as well as in other places, for a tougher response. That's one, I think, important advantage over 2014.

Another is the rise of this very vibrant open-source Intelligence Community that has just documented, you know, in great detail what's happening on the ground in Ukraine. And the maturation of this community, I think, is an incredibly significant step.

And taken together, I think those efforts really make it harder for Putin to justify his activities and lies.

CABRERA: I want to ask you more about the benefits to the technology we have, today.

Did Russia potentially underestimate the impact of, you know, Smartphones or the drones, the satellite technology and other types of technology that we have, which have really brought the brutal images and the horrific reality of this war to everyday citizens all around the world?

BRANDT: Yes, I think it did. I think Bucha is a great example. Russia has tried to deflect blame for its misdeeds there either by saying, no such crimes exist or that they were carried out by Ukrainians themselves.

And there are many variations on this story. Everything from Ukrainians hired crisis actors, you know, or -- no actual bodies existed or that, in fact, these crimes happened but they happened on Ukraine's watch.

[13:50:06]

And what we've seen satellite imagery that is precisely dated and on- the-ground photographs. And we've seen, again, the open-source Intelligence Community, whether it is from civil society or incredible investigative reports from "The New York Times" and the BBC and others.

They've really sort of put the lie to those statements and made it much, much harder for the public to buy what the Kremlin is selling.

CABRERA: Jessica Brandt, fascinating conversation. I appreciate your time. Thank you.

BRANDT: Thank you.

CABRERA: Dozens of Hollywood power players meeting today to figure out what to do about Will Smith. What action could the Academy take over that that Oscar slap? That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Right now, some of Hollywood's top names are about to decide the fate of Will Smith. The Film Academy Board of Governors is meeting as we speak on potential disciplinary action for the superstar after he stunned the world by slapping Chris Rock at the Oscars.

CNN's Chloe Melas is tracking this.

This meeting was supposed to start a couple of hours ago. We still don't know what they've decided. What do you think is taking so long?

[13:55:01]

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: I know. Listen, Ana, that is a great question. Because everything else we've seen from the Academy's Board of Governors has been swift. Swift statements, letting the public and their over 9,000 Academy members know, what is the decision.

So 54 people meeting right now. It includes the likes of Steven Spielberg, Whoopee Goldberg, Laura Dern, an A-list of A-list of Hollywood directors producers making these decisions as to what will happen to Will Smith.

Will he be banned from ever attending the Oscars again? He already resigned last week so, right there, he's unable to be part of the Academy voting body in the future.

Could he be banned just for next year? Could they be preventing him -- is it possible, I don't know -- to prevent him from ever being nominated in the future?

Could there be discussion perhaps about taking his Oscar away? Which seems completely unlikely given the fact that there are so many other people in Hollywood who have done far more egregious things and have not had their Oscars striped.

So, Ana, we're waiting for that decision and for an Academy statement to come down at any moment.

CABRERA: OK. We know you will keep us posted as you learn more.

Thank you very much, Chloe Melas.

And that is going to do it for us today. Appreciate all of you being with us. I hope you have a wonderful weekend. You can always keep up with me on Twitter, @AnaCabrera.

I'll see you in a couple of weeks. I'm going to be on vacation with my children next week. The news continues with Victor and Alisyn after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

[13:59:58]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Today, a Russian missile strike hit a Ukrainian train station that was crowded with civilians trying to get to safety. The strike killed at least 50 people but officials expect that number to rise.