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At Least 50 Dead After Missiles Hit Train Station Filled with Evacuees; "We Control Them All": Donald Trump Jr. Texted Meadows Ideas for Overturning 2020 Election Before It Was Called. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 08, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

A Russian missile strike has turned a train station in Eastern Ukraine into killing field. At least 50 people dead, 100 hospitalized. As many as 200 others hurt. That's according to Ukraine's president. All were civilians trying to flee the violence from Vladimir Putin's forces.

As a warning now, the footage you're about to see, this is from the scene, it is graphic. It is hard to watch. It shows bodies there on bloodstained pavement, luggage. Local officials expected the number of dead will rise. About 8,000 people typically packed that station each day, 8,000 people trying to get away from the attacks.

A witness posted a clip in the moments after the impact.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

CAMEROTA: That's just horrible.

Officials in that city, Kramatorsk, have been pleading for days for people to evacuate. The city is near the Russian border. You can see it right here on the map which is near the Russian border. Then you can see the red is where the Russian troops are now. The yellow striped is the contested areas.

Ground fighting there has been intensifying as Russia relocating it forces to this region here. That train station is one of the few options that people have left to get out.

U.S. intelligence believes a Russian short range ballistic missile hit that city. Ukraine has accused Russia of packing the missile with cluster bombs, which explode with smaller bombs to cause damage beyond the first blast.

Let's go now live to Ukraine, CNN's Jake Tapper is going to join us from Lviv. That's in the western part, as you know, of the country.

So, Jake, what more have you learned about the strike at that train station?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, THE LEAD: Well, Alisyn and Victor, for the last day or so, we have been reporting that Ukrainian officials have been talking about the major military operations that are expected in the Donbas region you were pointing to, the southeastern part of the country where the foreign minister of Ukraine has been talking about there are going to be major operations involving thousands of soldiers and tanks and airplanes, the size of which hasn't been seen in terms of the ground war since World War II.

And they have -- Ukrainian officials have been telling people in the Donbas region to flee and now we know that the Russians apparently targeted a number of these individuals fleeing. There's been an evacuation in this part of the Donbas region, the Donetsk province, if you will, since the end of February, since the war begun. And as you noted, 50 people at least are reported dead, five of them children, we should note. At least 98 are reported wounded, 16 of them children.

We're also told it was written in Russia on the missile, for the children on the missile itself. Now, we don't know whether that meant this missile was intended as revenge for Russian children that have been killed or whether or not this was a grotesque sending of a missile to children, this is intended for children. But in any case, we know that's the latest on this and the death toll is expected to go much higher.

We visited a hospital in western Ukraine earlier this week because so many hospitals have been targeted by Russia, especially in the Luhansk and Donetsk regions of Donbas, a lot of the people who were wounded there, I expect will end up here in Lviv in the next day or so.

BLACKWELL: Jake, this train station was a place known as a gathering place of civilians, thousands of them a day, trying to get out. We're hearing these statements of condemnation coming from around the world. What are some of the reactions that we're hearing?

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, we should just note and we've all been reporting now for weeks, the Russians are obviously targeting civilian targets. It is not -- it's no longer possible that any of this is a coincidence. It was a missile that was fired errantly. They are going after people. They are trying to kill moms and dad and grandmas and grandpas and kids.

Some of the reactions include the president or the European Commissioner Ursula van der Leyen saying she was appalled.

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She called the act despicable. She said that in Kyiv, today. She was visiting with President Zelenskyy -- Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in Kyiv today.

In addition, French President Emmanuel Macron said that the Ukrainian civilians were fleeing to escape the worst. Their weapons, strollers, stuffed toys, luggage. He said dozens are dead, hundreds wounded. This is an abomination.

CAMEROTA: Jake, we have been watching your reporting there as you meet with Ukrainians and they were forced to flee from their homes and the rest of the country and make it west to Lviv. So, what have you learned from them?

TAPPER: I mean, we went to a local university that is now a makeshift shelter for Ukrainians that fled. A lot of them had been living in a gymnasium, give an mattress, relying on the kindness of charities. We saw Jose Andres charity there giving food to people.

And it is a nation that's been traumatized. These are the ones who managed to escape but they don't know what happened to their friends. They don't know what happened to family member. We talked to one woman whose colleagues stayed behind in her town in Kyiv who was raped by Russian soldiers told her first hand of that story.

We met a number of individuals. There's more than 700 at this university and we will be telling some of their stories coming up on "THE LEAD".

BLACKWELL: All right. Jake Tapper, thank you.

And, of course, we look forward to that reporting from Ukraine on "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper next hour, 4:00 p.m., on CNN. Thank you, Jake.

Let's bring in now CNN national security analyst and former CIA chief of Russia operations, Steve Hall, and retired Army Major General Dana Pittard, a CNN military analyst and co-author of "Hunting the Caliphate".

Welcome to you both. General, let me start with you and what we learn from our Pentagon team is that they say, of course, that this train station, they say it's right on the line of -- you get the quote here, right on the edge of the line of contact between Russian and Ukrainian forces in the Donbas. Of course, the focus here from the Russians is east now, Ukrainian forces there as well, trying to protect that territory.

Why, General, that location? We know about the civilian casualties, why choose that space?

MAJ. GEN. DANA PITTARD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, good afternoon, Victor.

Now, part of the reason, what we've seen over the last week is the movement of both Russian forces and Ukrainian forces from the Kyiv region. Now, Russia's dilemma is the use of exterior lines. If you look at the map, you have to go in the outer edge, either through Belarus, or through Russia to get to eastern Ukraine.

The Ukrainian forces had the advantage of having shorter path to go, to get to Eastern Ukraine, using what we call interior lines, using roads, using rails, to get there. And what the Russians were doing from a purely military standpoint,

one can believe, was trying to interdict Ukrainian forces from moving to eastern Ukraine. Using a short range ballistic missile is crazy and causing so many casualties. It's just wrong.

CAMEROTA: Yeah.

Steve, one of things we just heard from defense officials just in the past hour is that all the problems that we saw when Russian forces were up near Kyiv have not gone away. They still have supply problems even over here in the east. They still have morale problems. They're still having sustainability problems.

And then we talk last hour to former defense secretary Leon Panetta, he said this is the moment -- this is the moment that Ukrainian soldiers can capitalize on those problems. But when you look at map and see all that red and the contested areas here in orange, how can they do that? How can they seize this moment?

STEVE HALL, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, the Ukrainians have surprised us before in terms of their military prowess. I mean, I think that certainly the United States government and the governments -- the Western governments were surprised at their push back. So, I think we can continue to see that.

That said, the Russian way of war is indeed this sort of war of attrition. And I would agree with Jake's comments earlier where he said, you know, we're way beyond the point we can see this was a mistake or this was just indiscriminant. This is specific targeting of not just Ukrainian forces but innocents, civilian, women, children, men who are not involved, older men, that sort of thing.

And there's a reason for that. There's a history for that. The history in Russian and Soviet times was the use of terror, weaponizing terror.

So, you're not just attacking military forces in Ukraine. You're trying to spread terror to weaken the Ukrainian state and the Ukrainian population. There's a long history of this in the Russian intelligence services and the Russian intelligence services have a great deal of sway over everything in Russia to include the military and Vladimir Putin is a former KGB officer himself.

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That's what's going on here. We'll have to see how much the Ukrainians can actually stand up to that kind of terror.

BLACKWELL: General, is it your expectation that is just the first of maybe several transportation hubs that will be targeted by Russians?

PITTARD: Sure, absolutely. They will be targeting any way that they can to slow down Ukrainian forces from moving to Eastern Ukraine or other areas.

Another concern would be that Ukrainian forces are moving to eastern Ukraine. The Russian forces are trying to hold them there. And there is a concern that Russian forces coming up from the Crimean peninsula could envelope those forces.

I have a lot of faith in the tenacity and courageous spirit of the Ukrainian forces, but they need more assistance. They need more than just intelligence to be able to do a real counteroffensive. They need more weapons. They need help. They need advisers.

CAMEROTA: And what's the answer? Will the U.S. provide that?

PITTARD: Right now, the U.S. and NATO are saying that they will not provide it. We watch 30-some-odd years ago when President George H.W. Bush drew a line in the sand for Kuwait, which is a monarchy police state. Ukraine is a democracy, fighting for their very lives. It is time for NATO and the U.S. to step up and provide more support on the ground.

CAMEROTA: We'll see if there's any appetite for doing that. As you point out, not thus far.

Steve Hall, General Dana Pittard, thank you very much for walking us through all this.

Now, we want to get to this breaking news. A CNN exclusive: two days after the 2020 presidential election, as votes were still being tallied, CNN is learning that Donald Trump's oldest son texted then- White House chief of staff Mark Meadows some ideas for overturning the election. This is before the election was called.

He wrote, quote: We have operational control to ensure his father would get a second term.

CNN's Ryan Nobles is one of the reporters breaking this story.

Ryan, what exactly do these texts tell us?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Alisyn, this is a lengthy text that Donald Trump Jr. sent to Mark Meadows on November 5th. And as you rightly point out, it was two days after the election. Votes were still being counted and before any of the major television networks had declared Joe Biden the winner.

And in this lengthy text, Donald Trump junior lays out a number of operational legal strategies that the Trump campaign and Republican operatives across the country would then go onto employ. A lot of these legal theories would not come out until week, sometimes months later. But what this text tells us is that there were already discussions at the highest level of the Trump family within the Trump orbit ant some of these legal strategies that were mainly rejected across the country by a variety of judges and within this text, Donald Trump junior suggests that it's the Republicans that have the control. They would be able to use the questionable legal theories in order to keep Donald Trump in office for a second term.

I'll just give you an example of some of the things that Donald Trump junior suggested that they should pursue, creating an alternate slate of fake electors. That's one of his suggestions. This is something we know that Rudy Giuliani and those close to the Trump administration attempted to employee. There were a number of individuals within the Republican Party that actually gathered together and submitted a false set of electors to Vice President Pence and the United States Congress. This is something Donald Trump Jr. talking to Mark Meadows via text about on November 5th.

He also talked about pushing the vote back to the state legislatures. And we also know this was a legal theory that Trump and his allies were attempting to pursue and he also talked about forcing a scenario where neither candidate had enough electoral votes to win leaving it to the House to vote by state delegation to elect a president. Again, another legal theory floated by the Trump campaign.

Now, it's important to point out, Donald Trump Jr.'s lawyer has told us that he believes that this was just an idea that Donald Trump Jr. was passing along to Mark Meadows. That he isn't the original author of the text. But it's still significant, Victor and Alisyn, given everything we know about the Trump campaign that he was passing this information along to the White House chief of staff just two days after the election and before all the votes were tallied -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles, excellent reporting, stay with us.

Let's bring in now, Elie Honig, CNN senior legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney.

Elie, this is November 5th. We're not talking January. We're not talking even after the election was called. What do you make of what Ryan is reporting?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: That's exactly it, Victor. The single-most damning fact about this text is the date, November 5, two days after election day, while the votes were still being counted, before anybody had called the election for Joe Biden or Donald Trump.

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And the reason it's so important because it takes away this argument that we heard from some of the people around Donald Trump. Well, he really thought he had won. He really -- this was a good faith effort to go through the legal process to try to indicate an election that he truly he had won. There's no possible way on November 5th Donald Trump would have believed or could have reasonably believed he won. He didn't know who won and even if they did have some evidence of election fraud, which none such ever existed, they wouldn't have had it on November 5th.

So, it really goes right to the heart of the intent behind this scheme to steal the election.

CAMEROTA: So, Ryan, what are they going to do with these new text messages?

NOBLES: Well, it's important to point out where this text message came from, right, Victor and Alisyn. This is part of that tranche of e-mails that Mark Meadows handed over to the committee during the short period of time when he was cooperating with the committee. So, we already know that this is an important part of their investigation. That they are using this to build the case as to how the attempts to subvert the will of the voters between Election Day and January 6th, was part of what fomented the anger and the violence that took place here on January 6th.

What is interesting and something we should point out is at this point there's been no talk by the committee to bring someone like Donald Trump Jr. before the committee. We know already they did speak to Jared Kushner. They spoke to the president's daughter, Ivanka Trump, this past week. They did that on a voluntary basis. They weren't subpoenaed.

But Donald Trump Jr. has not been in this conversation in part because while he was affiliated with the campaign more as a surrogate, somebody that was out and about, he wasn't a White House adviser and he didn't have an official role within the campaign. You have to wonder because the committee already revealed a series of text messages that Donald Trump Jr. sent to Mark Meadows on January 6th itself where he was encouraging Meadows to give the president to try and call people off. Whether or not Donald Trump Jr., down the road, could be someone that they want to talk to.

BLACKWELL: All right. Ryan Nobles, reporting a CNN exclusive, and Elie Honig with the analysis -- thank you both.

CAMEROTA: All right. So, we have the latest on situation in Ukraine. We're standing by for a live briefing from the Pentagon.

And a celebration of history. Ketanji Brown Jackson spoke after her historic confirmation to the Supreme Court. We have more ahead.

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BLACKWELL: Pentagon Press Secretary John Kirby is giving an update. Let's listen.

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: -- saw all reports of civilian casualties, decide to un-announce it.

So, our assessment that this was a Russian strike and the use of short range ballistic missile to conduct it. And you've seen the reports for yourselves, many of your colleagues have been reporting it on the ground that there are civilian casualties there. It is again of a piece of the Russian brutality in the prosecution of this war and their carelessness for trying to avoid civilian harm.

On the personnel notes, we are very happy to hear and I got the last night that the Senate unanimously confirmed DOD officials, Bill LaPlante is the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and sustainment and Erik Raven to be the undersecretary of the Navy, and we're very excited. These are two very big positions, very key positions here at the department and we're excited to have them be joining the team here in the coming days. It was a lot going on, a lot of challenges to deal with and both these

gentlemen will be key to that effort.

Moving onto some other news. On the first of April, U.S. sailors, coasts guards men and marines embarked aboard the USS Hershel "Woody" Williams, with support from Interpol and they assisted them in Cabo Verde maritime forces, with the interdiction of a Brazilian flagged fishing vessel.

BLACKWELL: All right. That's John Kirby giving an update. We caught the end of the update on that attack on the train station in Kramatorsk.

Our CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann was listening in.

What did relearn from Admiral Kirby there?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, right at the top there and this is important because this is his opener when he makes what he feels is important statements to set the pace for what follows. He'll get to the questions and answers which there will be follow ups into what the U.S. knows about this missile strike on the train station in Donbas.

But right at the top there, he says it is the U.S. assessment this was a Russian strike with a short range ballistic missile. And then I want to quote him here because his next words were important. It's of piece of Russian brutality in the prosecution of this war, an indication of their carelessness, he went to say.

And that's part of the expectation, the assessment the U.S. has seen as not only here, but also, for example, in Bucha and in other places, civilian casualties, either a wanton disregard for where those strikes end up or an intentional targeting of that. That's what the U.S. has seen, and as we now know, that's what the U.S. continues to see.

Again, it is an important statement from the Pentagon that they start right there and begin with an out front, on the record public statement that it is the U.S. assessment this was a Russian strike with a short range ballistic missile that killed civilians at the train station in the Donbas region.

BLACKWELL: All right. Oren Liebermann for us there at the Pentagon. We'll try to get back to John Kirby as soon as he starts to take those questions. Thank you, Oren.

All right. He's starting to take the questions now. Let's do it.

REPORTER: Could you describe -- do you anticipate this will change any significant way the type of Ukrainians need, the type of needs they'll have for weaponry and other assistance from the United States and other partners and will it make it significantly more difficult to get it into them, to Ukraine?

KIRBY: I do not -- we do not assess that this higher focus by the Russians on the south and the east, by itself, geographically is going to affect in any appreciable way the continued transshipment of security assistance on the ground in Ukraine that the United States is helping to coordinate.

And as for whether it will change the requirements, I think largely that will be up to the Ukrainians. I think you all know, the secretary spoke with Minister Reznikov just yesterday, late, late yesterday afternoon. Good conversation as they all are. The minister was grateful for the security assistance, particularly the recent announcement of $100 million worth of Javelins, which we did in keeping with conversations with them about this renewed fighting in a more confined geographic area.

So, we are tailoring our security assistance to meet their needs on the ground, but it's their needs we're trying to meet. We're not trying to, you know, foist stuff upon them that we don't think that they can use.

So, I guess that's a long answer to a very question. It's too soon to know if there's going to have to be any adjustments. We'll work that out in real time with Minister Reznikov and the Ukrainian armed forces. And, clearly, if it's something we can do and we can do it quickly, we'll absolutely do that.

Right now, I don't think we're anticipating any major muscle movement changes in terms of the security assistance required for this new push by the Russians in the Donbas.

[15:25:03]

I will tell you and I think I've said this before, but -- I mean, one of things the Ukrainians continue to say is one of their most valuable commodities is small arms ammunition. And we and other nations continue to provide literally millions of rounds. It doesn't get the headlines. It's not as dramatic as anti-tank missiles or Stinger anti- air missiles. It's a vital need that they use literally every day. That continues to flow.

Sylvie (ph)?

REPORTER: Thank you, John.

Yesterday, the secretary spoke about the guidance about sharing intelligence with the Ukrainians on the zones controlled by the separatists, pro-Russian population. So, does it mean you didn't give them any information in intelligence on those zones until now? And does it mean that you are giving this intelligence now to help them reclaim these zones?

KIRBY: It did not mean we weren't giving them useful intelligence and information in the Donbas and the eastern part of the country. We have continued it to provide them with useful intelligence and information to help defend themselves.

What the secretary was referring to was as conditions on the ground have changed and as this focus has happened -- has more pronounced in the east, we need to make sure that the guidance to our own intelligence apparatus was keeping pace with that.

REPORTER: Does it mean you are helping them now? That the objective now is to help them to retake these zones?

KIRBY: Our objective is and has been to help them defend themselves. That includes giving them tools whether that be weapons and systems and ammunition or information to be able to do that as best as they possibly can.

Yeah, John?

REPORTER: Hi, John, thanks. A follow up (INAUDIBLE) and a separate question please.

You know that I like to pick apart your words --

KIRBY: I enjoy it.

REPORTER: Okay.

KIRBY: I appreciate it.

REPORTER: We'll see if this rises to it then. You twice said in response in Sylvie, that you have give -- the United States has given the Ukrainians information to defend themselves. I want to make sure by the understanding of the word defend, in other words if the Ukrainians and I know you don't like to go on hypotheticals --

(CROSSTALK)

REPORTER: We'll try anyway -- the Ukrainians have engaged in offensive action, not just defensive action.

KIRBY: Yes, they have.

REPORTER: If Ukrainians are planning an offensive action, does that fall under an area where you provide information to help them?

KIRBY: We are -- look, Tom, I'm not trying to parse words here. When we say we want to help the Ukrainians defend themselves, we're talking about the aggregate effort. We're not talking about whether I'm in a defensive position or I'm on a counter attack. We're not getting into that level of specificity here.

We are trying to give them useful information and intelligence that allows them to defend themselves, to push back, to resist, to fight against. You call it whatever you want, this Russian invasion. And if they were to use some of that information to conduct the counteract, then so be it.

They are defending -- the largest defenses of their country, they have invaded now. Actually they've been invaded, quite frankly, for eight years but a massive invasion that began on the 24th of February. They're resisting that. We're doing what we can. I'm not going to get into too much detail here. I think you can understand that, but we're doing what we can to give them the tools and some of that includes useful information that they can use to contribute to that active defense of their country.

REPORTER: My other question, sorry.

KIRBY: I'm delighted.

REPORTER: Yeah. I know that earlier this year, actually on January 24th of this year, you said in response to another question not helpful to look at history. Although I know you taught history in academy.

KIRBY: That seems like a brutal detailing of my quote, but go ahead.

REPORTER: That's -- well, anyway, General Milley said yesterday that the action is going to be shifting to the Donbas region which is a different terrain for much of Ukraine.

KIRBY: Sure.

REPORTER: There's a scene during World War II of huge tank battles and armor battles. From a strategic point of view, bullets are great, and a lot of Javelins are on their way.