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NATO Pledges to Strengthen Support for Ukraine; Ukraine: Fight for Donbas Will Be Like World War II; U.S. Congress Passes Two Bills to Crack Down on Russia; EU Slaps Fifth Wave of Economic Sanctions on Moscow; European Commission Chief Headed to Kyiv; Diplomacy, Sanctions Shift into High Gear as War Rages On; Source: Intercepted Comms Implicate Russia in Bucha Killings. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired April 08, 2022 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers joining us in the United States and all around the world. I'm Max Foster in London. We're following breaking news coverage of Russia's war on Ukraine. Just ahead --

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far, the Russian state and the Russian military on the greatest threat to freedom on the military.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a body that was here and trying to look for any physical evidence as to how she was killed or where she was killed from -- probably Bucha.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are many more towns Russia has occupied, more towns it is still occupying.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

FOSTER: It's Friday, April 8th. 9 a.m. here in London. 11 a.m. in Ukraine. And we begin with new video showing just how suddenly Russia is raining down destruction on Ukraine. A building in Borodianka, the front completely blown off, the table and chairs visible, you can just see a mug on the table. Almost as if somebody was about to sit down to dinner. Someone's jacket in the back still hanging on the hook by the front door. A picture of sudden destruction in Vladimir Putin's war.

And we have new evidence of just how indiscriminate and brutal that war is. A Ukrainian official says 26 bodies have been found in the rubble of two houses in Borodianka. Ukraine's president says he expects more atrocities will be discovered there, proving Russia is the greatest threat on the planet to freedom and security.

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): After Bucha, this is already obvious, and the work on dismantling the debris in Borodianka has begun. It's much worse there. Even more victims of the Russian occupiers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Russian forces are intensifying their assault on the Donbas region in the east. Ukrainian authorities claim Russian shelling has destroyed all the hospitals and medical institutions in the Luhansk region. Ukraine blames a Russian air strike for taking out a crucial railway link with the east. About 500 evacuees are now reportedly stuck in a nearby train station. Farther north, Kharkov's regional governor says that Russian troops shelled a bread factory, killing a person and wounding 14 others. Russia denies it was targeting civilians.

Brutalities like the once we have just saw have cost Russia a seat at the U.N. Human Rights Counsel. The General Assembly voted on Thursday to suspend Moscow's membership. The Vote was was 93-24 with 58 countries abstaining.

Over in Brussels, NATO foreign ministers are pledging to strengthen and sustain their support for Ukraine. That includes increases to humanitarian and financial aid. At a NATO meeting on Thursday, Ukraine's foreign minister said help can't come soon enough.

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DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Either you help us now -- and I'm speaking about days, not weeks -- or your help will come too late. And many people will die. Many civilians will lose their homes. Many villages will be destroyed.

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FOSTER: CNN correspondents are covering the conflict from multiple angles. We have Phil Black in Lviv, Clarissa Ward in Chernihiv, Ukraine. And Melissa Bell is in Paris. Phil, Ukraine's foreign minister striking a stark prediction really about what lies ahead in the Donbas region and the urgency of getting the support he's been asking for.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Max. He says it's going to be something like -- look and feel like something from World War II in terms of the vast number of tanks, armored vehicles, artilleries, planes. It's the sort of assessment you've heard from Ukrainian officials before. The point is -- their concern is that the tactics they've been using up until now with some effect aren't going to work as effectively in this new coming phase of the war.

So far, Ukraine has had some success being lightly armed, agile, fast- moving, striking Russian units and columns that have been overextended across a wide area. In this coming phase, the expectation is there're going to be facing a much more consolidated Russian force, a greater density of troops and resources across a narrower area. And more than that, the expectation is that when Russia does take ground, it will dig in and fortify positions. And so, it's going to be very difficult to dislodge them.

So that is why, in recent weeks, you've been hearing Ukrainian officials say, we need more big, heavy, offensive weapons. And crucially, they say, they need them now. They want them now, while Russia is also in the process of repositioning, resupplying, reequipping it's recently withdrawn forces. Before they withdraw the fight in the east, and Russia launches the new big expected offensive operations. Ukraine wants all the weapons and armaments on its wish list so that it feels that it has a chance in this coming fight.

FOSTER: Phil in Lviv, thank you.

Back in Washington, Congress has passed two bipartisan bills to punish Russia for the invasion.

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SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): On this vote, the yeas are 100, the nays are 0. The bill as amended is passed.

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FOSTER: The measure suspends normal trade relations with Russia and ban any imports of Russian energy. Both bills were unanimously approved by the Senate and overwhelmingly supported by the House. They now go to the U.S. president, who is expected to sign them into law.

Now, the European Union is also stepping up pressure on Russia by further tightening the screws on its economy. On Thursday, the group slapped its fifth way of economic sanctions on Moscow. They include bans on coal imports and selling high-tech products to Russia. EU ports will also be off-limits to Russian vessels.

Meanwhile, the European Commission president is now on her way to Kyiv for a meeting with President Zelenskyy. Ursula von der Leyen tweeted a picture of herself earlier walking up to a train. The time of the meeting hasn't been disclosed for security reasons. For more, we're joined by Melissa Bell in Paris. And that visit, so symbolic -- isn't it -- of what the message, really, that Europe is trying to send, not just to Ukraine, but to Russia.

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Max. We had seen these last few weeks, East European leaders, the countries, for instance, of Poland, Slovakia heading to Kyiv to meet with Zelenskyy. This time, that the president of the European Commission should go really tells us a lot about the determination of Europeans, which has only increased as we've seen those dreadful pictures emerge this week. That latest round of sanctions that you mentioned, this time targeting coal imports. It's the first time that Europe targets Russia's energy sector.

And whilst Europe sees 45 percent of its coal imports come from Russia, it is more easily replaceable than some of the other energy imports that it's so reliant on. Gas, for instance, and oil. But Ursula von der Leyen indicating that whilst those weren't included

or targeted in this latest round of sanctions, the oil exports of Russia in particular could be targeted next time. So, Europe really determined to make as much -- to bring as much pressure to bear as it can on the Russian economy.

The latest round of sanctions, they will be officially written in the official journal of the European Union later today. They will be officially voted on Monday by European foreign ministers. And then we'll wait to see just how much further Europe is willing to go when it comes to those energy imports.

Also, worth noting that, Max, that in terms of the pressure being brought to bear in Russia, we've seen independent European countries expel Russian diplomats this week. In all, 200 Russian diplomats expelled from European countries in the space of just 48 hours earlier this week. And that speaks to the determination of individual European countries, as well as the European Commission itself -- Max.

FOSTER: The EU very much leading on the sanctions, but it was military support and equipment that the Ukrainians were asking for in these recent meetings. But that's being done on a country-by-country basis, isn't it?

BELL: That's right. What we heard was very clearly from the Ukrainian foreign minister meeting at NATO on Thursday, that he was after weapons, weapons, weapons. And they believe -- Ukrainians, that if they get the right amount of weaponry, they can win this war. We've seen the United States deliver -- announce more and more of those weapons deliveries, in particular, suicide drones and anti-tank systems, as well.

Those deliveries crucial to Ukraine's efforts to push back, especially as we were just hearing from Phil, as he anticipates that renewed, more concentrated troop amassing of Russian troops in the Donbas region. That is what is preparing for and calling on the West to cough up more and more weapons in order to help it to achieve that.

FOSTER: Melissa in Paris, thank you.

Joining me now, Robert Brinkley, former British Ambassador to Ukraine. He's now chairman of the Ukraine Forum at Chatham House here in London. Thank you so much for joining us. So, what did you make of the latest round of sanctions? Is it enough? Is it even what the Ukrainians need right now?

ROBERT BRINKLEY, CHAIRMAN, UKRAINE FORUM, CHATHAM HOUSE: Well, it's good. But, no, it's not enough. While Europe continues to receive so much of its gas and oil in particular from Russia, that's sending a huge amount money, billions --hundreds of billions of euros worth, to help the Russian economy. Which in turn enables Russia to continue its aggression against Ukraine. So, more needs to be done.

FOSTER: Chancellor Scholz making quite a big deal of the fact that they are going to cut off coal imports. But that's very different, isn't it, to what you were just referring to, oil -- but particularly gas.

BRINKLEY: Yes, that's good. The oil should certainly be the next one, because that's easier to replace than gas, which comes through fixed pipelines over land, mostly. That's the most difficult one to replace.

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But I think European Union really does need to pick up the pace on this, because this is the major financial support to the Russian economy.

FOSTER: How does a country like Germany practically do that, though?

BRINKLEY: Well, you talk very actively to all the alternative sources of supply, which is already being done. The Americans have offered 15 billion cubic meters a year of liquefied natural gas that's only a small part of what's needed. So, it's a matter also of dealing with the other suppliers. Then of course, there's the matter of reducing demand. Where that can be done through energy efficiency measures.

FOSTER: These things take, you know, years though -- don't they -- technically? So, when Germany talks about a couple of years before they can come off of gas, it's probably true, and it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to the current situation.

BRINKLEY: Well, in normal times, you'd be right. But this is an emergency. Ukraine is fighting for its life, for its existence as an independent country, as a democracy in Europe. And they need all the help we can give them. And that includes the armaments, but it also includes tightening the screws as quickly as possible on the Russian economy.

FOSTER: We're just looking at the map there, and to the whole campaign -- Russian campaign is very much moving -- isn't it -- to the east. We understand that troops are going into Belarus and back round to come into the east. it's going to be pretty horrific couple of weeks, by all accounts, according to experts. How can the European Union help with that effort? Because it's about arms, isn't it?

BRINKLEY: Yes, well, it's been horrific already since the start of this full invasion. In fact, going back to 2014. We've seen the dreadful pictures of the massacres in Bucha and elsewhere. We've just been talking about how the European Union can most help. And that is through economic and political measures. The individual members of the European Union, member states, most of them are also members of NATO, and a good number of them are already helping Ukraine with armaments. And that has to be stepped up. But that's really for coordination among themselves and in NATO, not with the European Union.

FOSTER: What do you make of the current Russian strategy? Where does it go now? And what are they looking as an end point?

BRINKLEY: Very hard to know what their end point is. I think they started off with extremely ambitious, overambitious objectives of quickly conquering Kyiv and taking over Ukraine. And they've been beaten back on the ground. They've now add to accept that they're not going to do that.

So, I think they're now falling back to more limited objectives, which is consolidating and expanding their hold over Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the east, the Donbas. And they've also, since 24th of February, just about secured that land bridge, along the Sea of Azov between Crimea and Donbas. I'm sure they'll try to hang on to that. Equally, the Ukrainians will want to liberate all of their territory, which is rightly Ukraine recognized over 30 years since the independence of Ukraine.

FOSTER: But if you were involved in the discussions between the U.K. and Russia, would you -- where would the compromise be? Because I think everyone is probably looking at parts of the east being handed to Russia more permanently, and also agreeing not to join NATO in the longer term. I mean, here will those negotiations end up, do you think?

BRINKLEY: I think the aim must be for Putin to fail in Ukraine. For Ukraine to succeed in recovering its sovereign territory. The aim shouldn't be finding some sort of compromise. We've seen in the last few years, if you think back to the Minsk Agreements, 2014/2015, they were fatally flawed. They were dictated by Russia at moments of Ukraine's greatest weakness, and they never worked. They could not produce a lasting peace. The aim now should be a lasting peace, which will come when Ukraine recovers control over its sovereign territory.

FOSTER: As you say, that would mean defeat -- wouldn't it -- for Russia and that could create a lot of anger, presumably, within Putin. Could you create more of a beast in Putin by not compromising at all on those eastern regions?

BRINKLEY: Undoubtedly it will create anger in Putin. He already comes across as a very angry man.

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But that should not be what drives our policy. We should be driven by what is right and just. Ukraine is fighting a just war to defend its country and defend its people against unprovoked aggression.

FOSTER: OK, Robert Brinkley, really appreciate your time from Chatham House.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

FOSTER: Now Russia has been repeatedly accused of war crimes in Ukraine and there is growing evidence of it, as well. Ahead, could audio intercepts from Russian troops link them to the atrocities.

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FOSTER: Russia's war now in Ukraine is in its seventh week. More and more people are being forced to flee their homes. Ukraine says ten humanitarian corridors will be opened today, including for people in Mariupol and Luhansk. The U.N. says over 4.3 million refugees have now left Ukraine and

another 7 million are displaced internally. Ukrainian authorities claim Russian shelling has destroyed all of hospitals and medical facilities in Luhansk.

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The head of the World Health Organization says there's no justification for such attacks. Listen.

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TEDROS ADHANOM GHEBREYESUS, W.H.O. DIRECTOR GENERAL: Attacks on health care are a violation of international humanitarian law. Peace is the only way forward. I again call on the Russian federation to stop the war.

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FOSTER: We now have an update on a disturbing story and a warning that some of these images are graphic. We now know the identity of the Ukrainian civilian gunned down by a Russian tank, totally unprovoked, whilst walking a bike through the town of Bucha. The horrifying scene was captured in a video taken by a drone. Her name was Iryna Filkina, a 52-year-old mother of two. Filkina's identity was confirmed by one of her daughters, who tells CNN that her mom stayed behind in Bucha so she could help people. She spent a week feeding her neighbors and cooking for the Ukrainian military before she was killed.

Filkina's makeup instructor tells CNN that she recognized her body by the sight of her distinctive red manicure seen here in this gruesome photo taken on a street where the bodies of at least 20 other civilians were left by retreating Russian forces.

Radio chatter between Russian troops could bolster evidence of possible war crimes in Bucha. According to a source, Germany's intelligence service intercepted audio of Russian soldiers talking about shooting civilians. CNN's Matthew Chance has details. And a warning, his report does contain graphic images.

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MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: These are potentially very significant, because it's something that's been picked up by German intelligence, they have been briefing a parliamentary committee inside Germany about what exactly they've picked up.

But what it seems to be, from the reports and from the sources that we've spoken to about the content of the intercepts, is that they are radio communications linking Russian forces with specific killings that took place in Bucha over the past -- that place north of Kyiv, of course, where there's been so many atrocities taking place -- that took place at the hands of Russian forces.

Now, there's no end of evidence, of course. Video evidence of the atrocities that took place there. The mass graves, the video we've all seen of the twisted corpses, that have been filmed by, you know, soldiers and by passersby, and by people in that community.

But, you know, video of bodies and pictures of bodies does not equate to evidence of war crimes. And that's why, potentially, these German intercepts are so important, because that linkage between Russian forces and actual killings of people who can be identified appears to have been from the reports we're seeing have been made. And that may be important in the future when it comes to any possible prosecutions for war crimes that may or may not -- that may take place. A question of whether it will take place and whether Russia would, you know, comply with anything like that is another discussion altogether.

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FOSTER: Well, the German magazine "Der Spiegel" first broke the news about intercepts and CNN's Erin Burnett asked its reporter about the tone of the Russian troops in those radio communications.

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FIDELIUS SCHMID, REPORTER, DER SPIEGEL: We spoke to several people that are familiar with these intercepts. We don't have access to them directly, of course, because it's all classified intelligence. The tone is basically reflecting an attitude where people are not supposed to take prisoners, quite the contrary. We have one call where they say, oh, yes, we interrogate them and then we shoot them.

There is another one where a bike is mentioned and that kind of reminds us of the pictures from Bucha, where a bike and a dead body can be seen and bike incident is being described. And in general, those people familiar with the recordings tell us that it seems to them that there is a strategy of spreading fear and panic at work with the Russian troops.

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FOSTER: Germany's foreign intelligence officer and a German government spokesperson would not confirm the "Der Spiegel" reporting.

Still to come, a once-vibrant city in Ukraine now in shambles and suffering severe shortages. This is how the Russians left Chernihiv. We'll take you inside.

Plus, hugs and history, as Ketanji Brown Jackson is confirmed to be the first black woman to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. We'll look at how the final Senate vote unfolded stay with us.

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FOSTER: Welcome back. I'm Max Foster in London. Two of Europe's top diplomats are now on their way to Ukraine. European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and the EU's chief diplomat Josep Borrell boarded a train in Poland just a short while ago. Von der Leyen is expected to meet with Ukraine's leader sometime today. The situation in the capital is much calmer now. Russian forces have

withdrawn from the surrounding areas. Some civilians who had left are beginning to return, as well. Mr. Zelenskyy is calling on foreign governments to restore their diplomatic missions in Kyiv, as a show of support.

Australia says it's sending 20 armored personnel carriers to Ukraine ahead of what many fear will be a major Russian offensive to seize the Donbas in the east. Ukraine's military government says Russian's preparations to attempt a massive breakthrough there are nearly complete.

Ukrainian authorities claim Russian shelling has destroyed all of the hospitals and medical institutions in the eastern region of Luhansk. Some of the wounded must now be taken hundreds of miles to western Ukraine for treatment.

The Kremlin's spokesperson has made a surprising admission, meanwhile, saying Russia suffered significant troop losses in Ukraine and he called it a huge tragedy. This is a notable departure from late March, when Russia said only about 1,300 of its troops have been killed. Dmitry Peskov also said that the Russian retreat from the Kyiv and Chernihiv regions was a, quote, act of goodwill to help with negotiations and lift tension.

CNN's Clarissa Ward visited Chernihiv that shows us the destruction left behind. A warning, her report includes images you may find disturbing.

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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For weeks, Chernihiv was completely cut off from the rest of the country. Once a vibrant city of 300,000 people, now parts of it, a wasteland.

Just 45 miles from the Belarusian border, it was quickly surrounded by Russian forces. There was no power.