Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

U.K. P.M. Boris Johnson Meets With Zelenskyy In Kyiv; At Least 50 Killed In Russian Airstrike On Crowded Train Platform; Russia Complains To Turkey About Ukraine's Use Of Turkish Drones; Finland and Sweden Could Soon Join NATO; Biden Signs Sanctions Bills Targeting Russian Oil & Trade; Ukrainian Families Searching for Their Missing Children After Parents Forcibly Sent to Russia; Will Smith Banned from Academy Events for the Next 10 Years; Jennifer Lopez, Ben Affleck Are Engaged Again. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired April 09, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:00:00]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: So to see Kim's operation in action, go to CNNheroes.com. And while you're there, you can nominate a hero in your life.

Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. We're monitoring breaking news out of Ukraine. U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson traveling to keep for Kyiv for surprise meeting with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. A significant show of solidarity as Russia's war in Ukraine rages on. Ukrainian officials now bracing for a major offensive by Russia in the east. Heavy shelling already underway in Kharkiv.

Much of the city reduced to ruins. And officials urging civilians to evacuate in advance of heavy fighting. Today, 10 new humanitarian corridors opening in eastern and southern Ukraine. And now we're getting horrific images from the aftermath of a Russian strike on a train station on Friday. A warning, some of the video is disturbing to watch. But we feel it's necessary for you to see what's happening to people there.

The Russian strike killed at least 50 people including five children, almost 100 others were wounded in the blast all attempting to escape the carnage. Fears mounting that Russia may be getting desperate to seek victory by any means necessary. One European official now saying a quarter of Russia's forces are effectively inoperable, following heavy losses and poor planning.

Let's go to Kyiv now where CNN's Nema Elbagir is. Nema, this meeting between Boris Johnson and Volodymyr Zelenskyy, well, it may be unexpected to the rest of the world. But, you know, what was the goal here?

NIMA ELBAGIR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Ukrainians seem to have hosted Prime Minister Boris Johnson with a great degree of enthusiasm, and diplomacy, calling him a leader in the anti-Putin Coalition, a leader in the anti-Sanction movement, even though -- actually the U.K. came under a significant degree of criticism for how slow it was. How behind the U.S. and even European partners it was to sanction Russia and prime supporters of Russia's leader Vladimir Putin.

But today, it seems to be about what more Prime Minister Johnson has come with, which is a broader package of defensive support, as the U.K. military are calling it, but also a long-term commitment to helping with Ukraine's longer-term financial stability. So, increasing the ceiling of the loan guarantee that Britain's providing at the World Bank, up to a total of around $1.5 billion. They're also providing anti-ship missiles.

This all sounds very good when you hear it in the press conference. And the Ukrainian leadership has been very careful to sound very enthusiastic. But will it change what's happening in the east of the country and from what we have seen from what our investigative team has been able to discover about the trajectory of much of the ordinance that is raining down and bringing death to Kharkiv what you were just telling our viewers about and to other parts of the east.

That's coming from inside Russia, and much of that package of military aid, while it has been very useful in previous chapters of this conflict will not help stem that tide of ordinance that's coming into the east of the country. And that really is the concern for so many people here on the ground, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Sure is. All right. Nema Elbagir. Thank you so much. In less than an hour, Odessa, Ukraine will be under curfew as Russia's onslaught against the port city continues. Senator Ed Lavandera is there. Ed, what are people bracing for?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's going to be a long day and a half, a 36-hour curfew that starts here shortly and will not end until Monday morning. This is definitely different from what we have seen in the past and officially, officials here in Odessa say that this is -- this curfew and this unique curfew is due in large part to because of the train attack that happened yesterday in Ukraine -- in eastern Ukraine where 50 people were killed nearly 100 others were injured.

And that is what is bringing about this particular curfew. But interestingly enough, it also coincides with a special holiday here in the city, which is Odessa's Liberation Day celebrating the city's liberation from Nazi occupation back during the World War II era. And it's a day that would normally bring out thousands of people to celebrate in parks, at memorials, and that sort of thing.

And perhaps those kinds of public gatherings is a concern in something that officials here wanted to prevent, which would make, you know, civilians an easy target.

[13:05:01]

LAVANDERA: And that is due in large part because we have seen a number of attacks here in the last week and in the last day and a half, they seem to have stepped up a little bit. But the missile strikes have largely been contained to more strategic targets, like a military facility just on the northeast edge of town. But given all of that, you know, that -- just this extended curfew really kind of adds to the already anxious mood that exists in the city.

WHITFIELD: And then the evacuation corridors. I mean, I imagine they are also impacted by curfews that are in place but are people willing to use them?

LAVANDERA: Yes, I think there's still a huge appetite for many civilians to get out through these evacuation routes. In fact, Ukrainian officials in various parts of the country, especially in the eastern part of the country are urging families and civilians to evacuate these areas where they're expecting a very aggressive and stepped up military campaign in the days and weeks ahead. So they're bracing for all of that.

And that's why these humanitarian corridors are a key lifeline to get people to safety either within safer parts of this country, or out of the country all together. But it's a very volatile situation, for example, today, they had to adjust several of the routes because of threats and also because of the ongoing investigation and fallout from the attack at the train station in eastern Ukraine yesterday.

So, you know, these humanitarian corridors we've seen day after day after day, just extremely volatile, and very, you know, dangerous. They might sound like they're all safe and protected. But that is not necessarily the case for, you know, thousands of these people that are trying to get out. We were told that yes, on Friday, about 6600 people were able to use those evacuation corridors.

But when you think about how many tens of thousands of people still are looking to be evacuated, that really is just a small number.

WHITFIELD: Yes. All right. Ed Lavandera in Odessa. Thank you so much. Let's get more analysis now on the military installations. Cedric Leighton is a retired Air Force colonel, and a CNN Military Analyst. So good to see you, Colonel. So that reportedly some Russian forces are inoperable. How crippled do you suspect these forces might be that are in country and on the ground?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Fredricka, that's an excellent question. And I think it really depends on the unit. In some cases, we know that many of the Russian units were decimated by the Ukrainians, especially as they were pummeling their convoys. So, when there was a long line, we've seen several pictures of this north and northwest of Kyiv especially where they would go in and they would destroy large portions of those Russian convoys.

Those units are in pretty bad shape. And in fact, in some cases, I believe those tactical units are basically 100 percent decimated, other units, not so much, you know, probably around 50 percent to 60 percent decimated and others even less than that. So, it will vary. But what it does mean in the aggregate is that there is a significant problem with the Russian method of force employment. And they are not going to be able to regenerate the forces as quickly as they would need to in order to have a complete recovery of those -- of those forces. And that's going to have an adverse impact on their war effort.

WHITFIELD: Would that explain why the U.K. Intel community is saying that Russia continues to hit these Ukrainian noncombatant locations like that train station? And like you're seeing and neighborhoods in Bucha? Because they don't have -- they're not met with the kind of force that say the Ukrainian military would be meeting them with?

LEIGHTON: Yes, I think in part, that's true, because, you know, they will go after easy targets, they're lashing out in anger. And, you know, it's civilians who also have been known to fight them, or at least to taunt them. And that is, you know, something that they don't take very kindly to, you know, for obvious reasons but they're also not very well disciplined in many cases. And in that day, you know, as an impact where these forces are not fighting military elements, they're fighting civilians.

And of course, civilians are incredibly easy targets today, they are the proverbial soft target, as we call it, you know, in the military speak.

WHITFIELD: Yes. So, when the Ukrainian defense chief says the Russian military is regrouping say in the east before any kind of advance, what does that regrouping mean?

LEIGHTON: So, usually what it means in this case, I think it's -- it is the case that they are going to get new troops in there, they're going to fix their equipment, they're going to patch up things that need to be patched up such as, you know, holes in the -- in the armor and, you know, fix tires and tank tracks and things of that nature. So, it's a lot of maintenance that goes on and, you know, perhaps some rudimentary retraining.

[13:10:08]

LEIGHTON: That's what the American units would be doing. I -- but, you know, we would have a very focused effort at retraining and doing those kinds of things. Whereas with the -- with the Russians, I'm sure it says concerted effort, there's a kind of a brute force approach they have toward their military efforts and that is going to I think, adversely impact their ability to carry out their offensive in the east.

And, you know, I do think that that offensive is coming. And I don't take that offensive lightly at all but there are going to be weaknesses in their -- in their operations as a result of their haphazard approach to things.

WHITFIELD: And Colonel, Russia apparently has complained to Turkey about Ukraine's use of Turkish drones. Has that been hugely beneficial A, for Ukraine to use these drones? And then at what risk, shall we say, you know, is Turkey taking by providing them? LEIGHTON: Well, Turkey is taking somewhat of a risk here. They, you know, Turkey has been trying to straddle the line between Putin's Russia, Ukraine, U.S. and its other NATO partners. So, the Bayraktar drone which we're seeing here is a key element in Ukraine's efforts to fight the Russians. It has been highly effective. And it has been used against convoys of Russian armor, it has been used against Russian troops and placements.

And it's a very versatile weapon of war. And in fact, it is what the Ukrainians have credited with a lot of their successes. So, when you combine the Bayraktar drone with the Javelin anti-tank missile and the Stinger anti-aircraft missile, and a few other weapons, that's a significant, you know, force equalizer in this case for the Ukrainians and it is a essential part of the Ukrainian war effort. Absolutely.

WHITFIELD: And -- I mean, Turkey is a NATO ally. So, why is it not complicated for Turkey? But there have been other NATO nations that have said, it's a little too complicated to provide air arsenal?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think one simple answer to that, there are a lot of other answers, but I think one simple answer to that, Fredricka, is that it's an unmanned aerial vehicle. That's the key element. The MIG- 29 is a manned aircraft. And there's a bit of a difference in the way people look at that, whether it's on our side or on the Russian side. And that is, I think, one of the key elements.

So, the Turks are getting away with it because of that, at least they're getting away with it up to now. But the more Russian soldiers are killed, you know, using a Bayraktar drone, the less likely the Russians are to look very commonly at that.

WHITFIELD: What's your point of view on the fact that European officials are also claiming that Russians feel this pressure to achieve some sort of victory by May 9th? And that's an important anniversary day, I guess, for Russia.

LEIGHTON: It is yes, in fact, that's the anniversary of the Russian or Soviet victory over Nazi Germany. And what that was, was the date that they -- German signed under documents in Berlin. I -- that anniversary is important for a lot of historical purposes. And it kind of fits with Putin's denazification narrative which is a false narrative. I -- but a, you know, these artificial deadlines can really play havoc with operational plans.

And that is not a good thing from an operational perspective for the Russians to have that kind of a deadline for their -- for their operations. And if they do have that deadline, which I think is highly likely, it's going to really impact on their ability to carry out their mission if they're not careful.

WHITFIELD: All right. Colonel Cedric Leighton, always good to see you. Thank you so much.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Fredricka. Good to be with you.

WHITFIELD: Thank you. All right. Coming up. We have new details about how former President Donald Trump's son, Don Jr. was involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right. We're learning new details about how former President Donald Trump's son, Don Jr. may have been involved in trying to overturn the 2020 election as votes were still being counted. A CNN exclusive report reveals Trump's oldest son texted then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows ideas that he thought would ensure Donald Trump a second term in office. CNN National Security Reporter Zach Cohen joining us now with these explosive details. Zach, what more did you learn?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yes, that's right, Fred. Our team breaking this story about a text exchange between Donald Trump Jr. and then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. Now it's really revealing on a few different levels here. As you can see, Donald Trump Jr. texted Meadows specifically about to lay out ideas for keeping his father in power.

Now, he says pretty point blank, it's very simple. We have multiple paths. We control them all. And he's talking about paths and ways to birth the Electoral College process and keep his dad in office. Now keep in mind, the first thing I want to point out here is this exchange happened on November 5th, 2020. That is two days after the presidential election. But Joe Biden had not been certified the winner yet and votes were still being tallied.

Now you have the president's son and his wife -- and his chief of staff in the White House, texting about ways to overturn the election results before they've even been decided. Now the second thing I want to point to is the ideas that were being floated here. This exchange really foreshadows what the Trump team, the Trump campaign would really try to put into action of the next day several weeks and months.

[13:20:01]

COHEN: They targeted states, they tried to convince Republicans in certain swing states to step in and to install alternate slates of electors that had been cast their state's votes for Donald Trump. Then they also looked ahead to January 6th as part of the deadline day, the last day where they hoped Congress could overturn the election if it had to. So -- and this part is pretty obvious. But you have to note who the two participants are.

Donald Trump Jr., a member of the Trump family and his most senior White House aide at the time and again, the election had not been decided or sort of -- or it had not been called yet. And yet, they're already planning for ways to overturn the outcome. Now, we asked Donald Trump Jr.'s attorney about this and he said that he -- Donald Trump Jr. received a lot of messages from people and a lot of suggestions.

And that he was likely forwarding along information from somebody else. But, you know, CNN has learned also that Don Jr. had texted Meadows earlier saying, "This is what we need to do, please read it and give it -- and get it to everyone that needs to see it, because I'm not sure we're doing it." Now, we know the January 6 Committee has this text in their possession and they have for some time, and there's no doubt that is part of their investigation.

WHITFIELD: All right. The questions keep mounting. Zack Cohen, thank you so much. All right. Still ahead. The U.S. is putting more pressure on Russia amid the bloodshed that we're seeing in Ukraine. Will it be enough to stop Putin? We'll discuss right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:55]

WHITFIELD: In a show of support, U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Australia's Chancellor Karl Nehammer paid a visit to President Zelenskyy today in Kyiv. I want to bring in now CNN Contributor Jill Dougherty to discuss. She's the adjunct professor at Georgetown University and a former CNN Moscow Bureau Chief. Jill, good to see you. I mean, how significant is this, that you've got leaders of Australia and the U.K. saying they're willing to risk a lot to have face to face time with the Ukrainian president?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, on so many levels, Fredricka, this really is, I think, very significant. Number one, remember, you know, a week or two ago, Kyiv and there's still fighting going on. But Kyiv was a place that not a lot of people wanted to go into, it was very war torn. And you had these images of Zelenskyy, you know, coming basically out onto the streets, it was really -- the image was very, very different.

And now you have leaders of the E.U., you know, Boris Johnson and the Australian diplomat coming to Kyiv to meet with Zelenskyy. Then you have the E.U. deciding that it's going to return its diplomatic presence in Kyiv. All of f this, I think is important, you know, again, on that kind of messaging area and the show of support, but also the fact that if you have more diplomatic personnel from other countries in Europe, it gives a presence which makes it harder for Russia, I would think, to decide to do any type of military action there.

If they were to kill people to be blunt about it from other countries, it makes it much more complicated. And already they have said that they are -- they're leaving, they're moving to the east. And I was noting the comments by the foreign minister of Italy saying this is a big signal. And to Ukraine, he was saying thanks for kicking out the Russian troops from Kyiv.

WHITFIELD: Interesting. And then I have to wonder Jill too. By looking at some of these rooms, if anyone is familiar with Kyiv or anywhere in Ukraine, this seems a little bold to me that the president who has been in bunkers, you know, his life has also been on the line. He himself said he's target number one, that he would now be in buildings or rooms being photographed in very recognizable places.

Doesn't that open up now his vulnerability for placement for Putin who wants to take him out?

DOUGHERTY: It could and I was struck by that too. You know, it looks like a presidential palace where he met with Boris Johnson.

WHITFIELD: Right there.

(CROSSTALK)

DOUGHERTY: And so I think (INAUDIBLE) yes, there's some messaging going on there certainly, which is a type of -- I don't want to say return to normal, because that would be ridiculous, but a certain sense that they are in -- that the Ukrainians are in control. And so, that is important. It could increase his vulnerability. But you would think since he's been very careful and the people surrounding have been very careful and have survived up until this point, you would think that they're not taking any outside chances.

WHITFIELD: Yes. You worry that, you know, he or anybody would feel overly confident at this point. They're still very, very vulnerable. So, now let's talk about the other countries and their potential demise and all this. Finland and Sweden now could soon join NATO. What does that mean? What -- why does -- well, A, it's -- that it's NATO and B, the when happening potentially right now and the signal that that too is now sending to Russia, to Putin.

DOUGHERTY: This is huge. This is really huge, because for years, especially Finland, has been kind of the symbol of neutrality. And now, because of the war that Putin has unleashed in Ukraine and because of these images, it has really changed public opinion.

[13:30:07]

So there's an extremely rapid -- here we are, what, six weeks-plus after the beginning of this war, and public opinion is changing in both of those countries, in Finland and in Sweden.

As you mentioned, they're talking about, in Finland, parliament discussing this very soon, possible membership.

Russia will be furious with this. There's no question. And it has already threatened very graphically, actually -- I think the word they used was "rebalance the situation."

But they are definitely threatening Finland and Sweden if they take this step. But at this point, it would appear that Russia can't do anything other than take military action.

And if those countries are in the process of becoming members of NATO or already are members of NATO, then Putin is starting a war with NATO, and that is, you know, mind-bogglingly serious.

WHITFIELD: Right. And then what about now these new sanctions that are focusing on Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov and Putin's adult children? And France, in fact, says it is willing to go even further.

What's happening here? DOUGHERTY: Well, I think, you know, if you look at it objectively,

sanctioning Putin's daughters, his adult daughters, isn't really a huge blow to the Russian economy.

But it is very significant because, ever since they were little kids, he's been private about them. There's not a lot of information about them.

And I think just revealing them to the public is a step, a shot over the bow by the United States and its allies toward Putin himself.

And then also, you know, the closer it gets personally, I think the more it is a challenge to Putin.

So I'm losing track at this point of how many sanctions are actually there.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: Right. And there are some left? It seems like all of them would have been --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: -- all, you know, imposed by now. But there's still some --

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: -- unused material?

DOUGHERTY: Well, there is, actually, in the energy field. And U.S. officials are saying basically that there are some here in Washington who would like to open the book and just do everything right now and really throw the book at Russia.

However, the United States is very intent on keeping the unity of the allies together. And realistically, there are some in Europe who don't want to go precisely down the path that the United States might want to go because there are other considerations.

And so the U.S. is, I won't say holding back, but it is tempering some of these sanctions in order to keep that unity. Because you can be sure if the unity started to fray --

WHITFIELD: Yes.

DOUGHERTY: -- Putin would immediately come in and take advantage of that.

WHITFIELD: Right. All right. The world is leverage, right? Trying to maintain some leverage still.

Jill Dougherty, thank you so much.

DOUGHERTY: Thank you. WHITFIELD: Coming up, CNN speaks to Ukrainians forcibly deported to Russia. How they thought it would be a passage to safety but turned into a harrowing experience, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:35:13]

WHITFIELD: Horror stories have emerged of Ukrainians being deported to Russia, forced to pass through what are called filtration or registration camps.

The Mariupol city council said that Russia's failure to agree to evacuation corridors and its creation of the filtration centers are part of a broader effort to cover up potential war crimes carried out in the city.

The council says Russian forces want to identify potential witnesses to their atrocities and silence them.

CNN could not verify the claims. But we are hearing residents who say they were sent to Russia against their will, as well as reports of missing children.

Here now is CNN's Katie Polglase.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE PRODUCER (voice-over): Post after post of missing children in Ukraine, families desperate to find their loved ones.

Most come from the city's most severely impacted by the fighting. And at the top of that list is Mariupol.

These pictures of missing children were provided by parents and police from Magnolia, a Ukrainian NGO tracking missing children.

Their Ukrainian director told CNN they are inundated with cases.

MARYNA LYPOVETSKA, MAGNOLIA "MISSING CHILDREN SERVICE" NGO: The number of missing children is closer to 2,000 in only one month.

POLGLASE: A scene of utter devastation. Amid the chaos and uncertainty, families told CNN relatives, including children, went missing.

And now from this void, a story has emerged of people not missing but deported.

LYPOVETSKA: Unfortunately, some people are stolen, forced, stolen by Russians. Some were displaced in Russia, but no one knows information of where exactly and for what.

POLGLASE: CNN has spoken to multiple Mariupol residents who say soldiers from the Russian army forcibly evacuated them to Russia.

[13:40:03]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Some of those who asked to stay were told no.

This testimony is from Anna (ph). We're using a pseudonym to protect her identity. And a CNN producer is reading her words.

Like many others, Anna (ph), a young woman, was living under bombardment in Mariupol.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): They came in and said, it's an order. He told us, if you make a fuss, things will get worse.

POLGLASE (on camera): Many told us that it started with a promise of evacuation. Soldiers came to where they were staying and told them it was dangerous and that they needed to get out.

So they went to shelters and in camps further and further into Russian territory. It was then that they realized there was very little option to get out.

(voice-over): CNN spoke to multiple people on the condition of anonymity. And using Anna (ph)'s testimony we started tracking the locations along the deportation routes.

We are not identifying the routes for the safety of our interviewees.

This is the town of Bezimenee. These tents indicate one of many sites across the town where interviewees told us they were taken on the first step of their journey.

Anna (ph) describes her stop as a, quote, "registration camp," where they said they were interrogated for hours by Russian and Russian- backed forces.

(CROSSTALK)

POLGLASE: Russia claims these camps are to harbor evacuees. Another shelter seen here in Taganrog.

And while some interviewees saw the journey to Russia as a necessary passage to safety, others, including Anna (ph), found the experience distressing and forced.

This is Anna (ph)'s migration card, a standard document provided to her by Russia upon entry, but it masks a troubling journey.

Anna (ph) told CNN they were forced to surrender their phones and passports during intense security checks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): they photograph you from all angles. I felt we were treated like criminals or being held as property of the Russian Federation. I didn't feel we were free to leave. POLGLASE: After questioning, interviewees told CNN they were

transferred to other locations dotted across Russia and Russian- occupied territory.

Some made onward journeys as far as Moscow and St. Petersburg.

The limitations on freedom of movement for those interviewed by CNN seem to vary based on their access to money and family ties in Russia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

POLGLASE: Ukraine's government claims 45,000 people have been forcibly taken to Russia so far, which CNN cannot independently verify.

International Human Rights Conventions prohibit the forced deportation of transfer of civilians.

After a week of transfers across Russian territory, Anna (ph) was finally given permission to leave and decided to drive to the border with Estonia, a route that others have also managed to take, according to the Estonian authorities.

However, others still remain in Russia or are unaccounted for entirely.

And while the conflict in Ukraine continues, the panicked search for the missing, feared dead, or deported, goes on.

Katie Polglase, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Still ahead, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences hands down its punishment to Will Smith after that now infamous slap at the Oscars. We'll discuss next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:49]

WHITFIELD: All right Welcome back. The Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences banning actor, Will Smith, for the next decade from going to any awards shows. All this after slapping comedian, Chris Rock.

Here to discuss is NPR TV film critic, Eric Deggans.

Eric, so good to see you.

OK, so --

(CROSSTALK)

ERIC DEGGANS, TV & FILM CRITIC, NPR: It's good to see you.

WHITFIELD: Yes. Glad you could be with us.

Does this punishment fit the offense?

DEGGANS: Well, I feel like the Academy was in a bind. Will Smith had already resigned from the Academy. And it seemed likely that one of their punishments might be to either suspend him or kick him out of membership.

Since neither of those were available to them, you know, their options were limited. They could bar him from coming to Academy events. They could bar him from being nominated for winning an award. And they could take back the award that he'd already won.

So it feels like this punishment, while it sounds harsh and maybe extensive, it was probably the least of the three most prominent options they had.

WHITFIELD: Right. I mean, the damage has been great, right? Not just the world watching that strike, you know, that offense on Chris Rock.

But now this -- that moment has soiled Will Smith's reputation, that of the entire family. I mean, his kids are all in the entertainment industry now.

I mean, what do you see the road of recovery to be like for him and to his family?

DEGGANS: Yes. This is a family that has chosen to live a lot of its life in the spotlight. Jada Pinkett Smith, of course, has an online talk show. Will Smith has an active YouTube channel and posts a lot of things to Instagram. And so do his children.

So their road to redemption will have to be public as well.

I think Will Smith, in particular, is going to have to do a lot of things that are relatively not self-serving, that are not about himself, but about showing the public, in particular, people who were disappointed by what he did, that it was an aberration, and that's he's not a toxic -- secretly a toxic person.

[13:50:15]

And that he's someone who respects the rights of other people, to even make fun of himself and the family members without worrying that they will get into a physical altercation with him.

WHITFIELD: Right. It will be evaluated, right, from those particularly in the industry who wonder whether it is a gamble to engage him in any kind of project.

Has there been a real road of healing? Has he been contrite?

And will other people on the sets will be feeling comfortable working with him knowing it is hard to forget that moment. These are all the things that they're going to be concerning.

DEGGANS: I think it is more -- I think it's more about, when you are talking about a star that big, and when they put out a project, they're saying to the audience, spend time with this person that you really like, and watch them tell this story.

And so the question is, are there a bunch of people out there who have now decided that they don't want to spend time with Will Smith telling a story, because they are turned off by what he did during the Oscars.

I think his job now is to publicly win back those people. And if he gets those people back, then the studios and the people that he works with, will certainly follow suit and engage with him the way they have been.

I'm not sure it is going to take very much, but he is going to have to sort of prove to the public that this was an aberration, that he realizes that he made a mistake.

And you know, he has to sort of endure some level of punishment for the transgression that he committed in public.

WHITFIELD: Great points, because his fans have either wanted to be with him or be him, right, it's just that much of a feeling of envy that so many had.

And really quick, quick, quick, Bennifer, and need I say more?

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

WHITFIELD: So, -- I mean, hey, they're back together again.

DEGGANS: For people who don't know, Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez seem to be engaged to be married. Jennifer Lopez posted a picture of a wonderful ring. They seem to have reconnected.

They were -- it is like a plot from one of the rom-com movies that either of them could have stared in, in their heyday. You they were together. They were getting married. And they canceled it because of the paparazzi concerns. And then they found other people. And now they've come back.

WHITFIELD: Whoo.

DEGGANS: You know, no one can really understand what it is like to be as famous as Jennifer Lopez, and someone else, like Ben Affleck, who is also about that famous.

So it is good to see the two of them come together again. And I am really pulling for them. I am pulling for Ben.

WHITFIELD: OK. OK. I love your optimism.

I love how you put "a wonderful ring." It is more like the segue could have been, OK, from Chris Rock to a different kind of rock. Because it is a sizable rock that on her hand.

DEGGANS: Exactly. A much more delightful rock.

(LAUGHTER)

WHITFIELD: That is right.

All right. Thank you so much, Eric Deggans. Good to see you. Appreciate you.

DEGGANS: Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: All right, we will be right back. Yes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:57:57]

WHITFIELD: All right. Now we are going to San Antonio, Texas, where a local artist is using hats as her canvas and turning her craft into a thriving business, in today's "START SMALL, THING BIG."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN GONZALEZ, OWNER, SIMPLY MEXICANA: Simply Mexicana is a small business of hand-painted goods like hats, handbags and canvases inspired by the Mexican culture.

My name is Karen Gonzalez and I'm the owner of Simply Mexicana.

It is very important to connect with the Mexican culture because I am a DACA recipient. The last time I was in Mexico, I was 8 months old and my mom was carrying me in her arms.

Being inspired by the colors and traditions and even patterns that Mexico has to offer is very important.

Before I started Simply Mexicana, I was a preschool teacher, and painting was a hobby for me. The first time I ever painted a hat, I was surprised by how easy it was me be to flow the flowers and my art onto it.

And then being able to see that on other people was really exciting. That when it sparked the idea of starting my own business.

I get the hats from Mexico. And then once I bring them home, I decide what I'm going to paint on them. And both together, it makes a beautiful creation.

I love sunflowers. You will see that a lot in all of my hats. It's something unique and it's a theme that comes from somebody's hand.

It has been little bit more than a year that I decided that I can take my hats to market. And then, from market, the idea of the Web site came up.

And I call it my full-time small business. And I'm able to ship my hats all over the U.S.

I hope that anyone who buys the hat from Simply Mexicana will be able to appreciate the inspiration that comes behind the Mexican culture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: So pretty and powerful.

All right, a moving moment of solidarity in the U.S., and also a powerful moment. America's pastime honoring Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:59:57]

WHITFIELD: She is just 11. Yulia Poliack (ph) singing the Ukrainian national anthem at Yankee Stadium. Her family immigrated from Lviv back in 2006.