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Death Toll from Train Station Missile Strike Rises to 57; U.S. Police Sending Protective Gear to Ukrainian Civilians; Sports World Mourns Death of NFL Quarterback Dwayne Haskins; Interview with Rep. Jim Langevin (D-RI) about Easing U.S. Entry for Ukrainian Refugees; NYC Mayor Eric Adams Tests Positive for COVID; Pink Floyd Reunites, Releases Original Song for Ukraine. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired April 10, 2022 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: CNN NEWSROOM on this Sunday. Well, as we mark the seventh week of Russia's unprovoked and brutal war in Ukraine, the world genocide is now part of the conversation. First National Security adviser's Jake Sullivan's take.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Look, in my opinion the label is less important than the fact that these acts are cruel and criminal and wrong and evil, and need to be responded to decisively.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But Wyoming Congressman Liz Cheney isn't shying away from the term.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I think this clearly is genocide. I think that you asked exactly the right questions. I think that Europe needs to understand and grapple with the fact that you've got a genocidal campaign, the first kind of horrific genocidal campaign that we've seen certainly in recent decades. I think that also, Europeans need to understand that they're funding that genocidal campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: New satellite images show an eight-mile-long Russian convoy approaching the regional capital of Kharkiv. A major battle is expected in the Donbas region in the days ahead as Putin tries to come up with a win ahead of Russia's May 9th Victory Day holiday.

Well, right now Ukrainian officials are urging civilians in eastern Ukraine to leave now before it's too late. Nine evacuation corridors were opened today in that region. In Kramatorsk a scene of that deadly missile strike on a train station, many buses and vans are being pressed into service to get people out but Russian forces are clearly trying to make evacuation as difficult as possible. In the east central city of Dnipro, yet another attack on an airport

that was first hit on March 15th, destroying the runway and damaging a terminal building. These new strikes reportedly blasted all remaining structures at and near the airport.

And there is still blood on the ground at that strain station hit Friday by a Russian missile strike. The official death toll has now risen to 57 with more than 100 injured, some severely. Most of them women, children, the elderly. These were civilians, vulnerable, innocent civilians just trying to flee from advancing Russian troops. And a battle expected to rival what was seen in World War II.

CNN's Ben Wedeman visits the place that will be forever linked to the horror of this war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): At 10:30 in the morning Friday, as many as 4,000 people were here at the Kramatorsk railway station waiting to be evacuated, when there was a large blast overhead that rained down thousands of pieces of shrapnel on the crowd below. At least 52 people were killed.

You can still see the blood all over the ground. As many as 100 people were wounded. All the injured have been evacuated out of this city to the city of Dnipro and the capital Kyiv because of course there is a profound fear that there is going to be a massive Russian assault on the eastern Ukraine.

Here we can see there is a shoe that's been ripped apart by shrapnel. There is just blood everywhere.

The authorities in this part of Ukraine have urged all civilians, especially women, children, and the elderly to leave as quickly as possible because of fears of that Russian assault. This is a city where just to the east of here, there have been intensive Russian bombardments on Ukrainian positions.

So the evacuation continues prior to the blast on Friday, they were dealing with about -- handling about 8,000 people leaving the city. Now the evacuation effort has moved elsewhere because this station is no longer functioning.

Here inside the station, more blood on the floor. Many of the wounded were dragged inside for fear there might be yet another blast. This is the luggage of those who were killed and wounded, left behind. There is more blood here on the floor. Cleanup crews are just almost 48 hours after the blast coming to clean up. But here we see more glass on the floor. What happened here can only be described as a massacre.

I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN reporting from Kramatorsk in eastern Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[19:05:02] BROWN: A massacre. Joining me now with more retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, former European Affairs director at the National Security Council. He was born in Kyiv.

Colonel Vindman, welcome to the show. Great to have you along with us and to hear your perspective on all of this. Analysts believe that Putin is pressuring his army to come up with some kind of win ahead of May 9th. That is Russia's Victory Day holiday.

I'm curious, do you have any predictions on how this will play out?

LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN (RET), FORMER EUROPEAN AFFAIRS DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: I think that's right. And in part, I think Putin's a showman, that's why you have him on horseback without a shirt, you have him taming a bear, you have him sitting with a Siberian tiger. He likes to play to the crowd, he understands the kind of effects that has on his perceptions as an effective leader, as a strongman, and he needs a win here.

The rhetoric is that Russia is on the cusp of a victory. Russia withdrew from north of Kyiv because it was taking a humane position and leaving room for negotiation, but in fact it was as a result of a loss so he's looking for some sort of win before May 9th. The idea is to have his troops march through Red Square as victorious soldiers the same way he did after the Georgia war in 2008. The same way he did in 2014. I was at that parade and watched those troops march through.

And I think he needs that kind of visual otherwise the population is going to start to wonder why this powerful Russian military is not delivering. Why is it due to Vladimir Putin's own lack of leadership? We're still a long ways from that, but Putin senses this and he senses it acutely and he's looking to make sure that he is not put in that position, failing to deliver as a strongman.

BROWN: I want to ask you about what we heard from Jake Sullivan today, the National Security adviser. He's shying away from calling this genocide. What we're seeing play out in Ukraine. I'm curious what your thoughts are on that given the fact that you used to work in NSC.

VINDMAN: Sure, so I would have preferred to see him parry, you know, whether to label this a genocide or something else, which in fact, you know, when the leader of attacking country says that this country of Ukraine has no right to exist, these are not free and independent people, and the rhetoric coming out of the state media is about basically imprisoning millions of Ukrainians, transporting them thousands, tens of thousands. They would like to do much more of course. Ukrainian citizens into Russia to be deprogrammed or reprogrammed like in some sort of camps.

So that you could kind of figure out that definition for yourself. If we're not there yet, that's certainly an objective, but I would like him to parry those types of labels and his concerns with what we're doing, and frankly, that's a hard thing to do because, frankly, I don't think he can say that we're doing enough. We're slowly starting to pivot towards greater support for Ukraine, but most of the things that we could fall back on thus far are Javelins and Stingers, the same thing we've been saying for six weeks.

What he should be saying by this point is that we've established a trading program to arm Ukraine with Western equipment. This is likely to be a protracted war. What he should be saying is that we've figured out how to say yes to everything that Ukraine's is asking for with regard to see the weapons that they need to win because if they lose this next battle in the east, that's a recipe for protracted war. He should be saying that we are now starting to arm Ukraine with long range fires. We're not hearing that, and that's probably a hard thing for him -- that's why he has to fall back on rhetoric and talk about whether this is or is not a genocide.

BROWN: Interesting perspective there. And yes, the thinking is that if the Russians succeed in the east, it will just turn their sights on, you know, Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine. Right? I want to ask you something, I was reading the interview you did a couple of weeks ago with the "Washington Post" and you said that you believe that Putin is actually a rational actor. Because, you know, there has been all this talk about the fact, is he a mad man, and you know, and that kind of thing?

Is he acting irrationally? And you believe he is a rational actor, and because of that, you don't think he'll launch a nuclear war with the U.S. necessarily if the U.S. provides more support to Ukraine. Walk us through your thinking on that.

VINDMAN: Sure, so first of all, the probability of a nuclear war with the U.S. is hovering above zero. It's hovering maybe a tiny fraction above where it was before Russia was involved in a failed war, but the doctrine of mutually-assured destruction where both parties lose is iron clad.

[19:10:01]

There is no misconception that launching a nuclear strike against U.S. or NATO results in a nuclear war that terminates -- his regime terminates him. And this is a guy that has his zest for life. He sits a football field away from his closest advisers because he doesn't want to get COVID so I think that's a far-fetched notion, but with regards to him being a rational actor, you know, I'm working on my doctorate on this specific subject.

How did we get to this war? If you track all of his activities, basically the incremental probes to figure out what he could get away with, he always met weakness, he always met vulnerability, whether that's on democratic activities within his own country, the precursors to arms revolution attacking Georgia, attacking Ukraine in 2014, interfering in our own elections, chemical assassinations, all these types of things actually he got away with.

We turned the other way because we didn't want to have a worse relationship with him. So for him, he was acting on the notion that the cost of this operation was going to be low. His biggest mistake, frankly, was not -- in part about the West and the resolve of the West to resist authoritarianism but his biggest mistake was on the resolve of the Ukrainian people, their desire to live free and prosperous lives outside of his control. That's where his massive failure really is. That's where he's going to pay the price with regard to his own tenure and power.

BROWN: All right, Colonel Alexander Vindman, thank you so much for coming on and offering your analysis.

VINDMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, here in the U.S. where so many of us are asking how we can help, U.S. police and a former New York governor have come up with some practical and innovative solutions.

CNN's Polo Sandoval has all the details. So some of these ideas are being called unprecedent. Tell us about more them, Polo.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, that's because you have local law enforcement agencies from across the country that are basically willing to help and sending police and military grade nonlethal military equipment all the way to Ukraine, to a country right now that is still locked in war. So that to answer your question is unprecedented alone. For example, look at some of these images from Falls Township, Pennsylvania.

The community here that really came together almost immediately after the invasion. When you see some of these images, it's actually home to a very large Ukrainian community and the police chief there and other local officials launching what they called Operation Urgent Aid. Their goal is to collect more than 100 ballistic vests and dozens of helmets there. The police chief they're saying that this has certainly sparked or triggered something among their officers, and this extends far beyond just stepping up to help people but also to help many of these Ukrainians on the front lines protect themselves.

And then you also have some images from another organization, the Ukrainian-American Coordinating Council or the UACC. They moved very quickly to make sure they had their paperwork in order and to petition the government for an application with U.S. Department of Commerce that basically issues these export licenses to send some of this equipment out so it's certainly something that they certainly are going an extra step here.

Organizers, though, by the way, Pamela, and these police departments say this is all obviously legal, they inspect everything that's going overseas to make sure that it adhere to federal regulations.

BROWN: And tell us more about the housing that's being provided to these Ukrainians. Where is this temporary housing coming from?

SANDOVAL: It's actually New York state's former governor, George Pataki, we know that he basically stepped forward and joined forces with a Hungarian company that builds these sort of modular housing. We have some video and some images of what it looks like. It basically allows them to be able to give many Ukrainians that are displaced, especially internally displaced Ukrainians at least a roof over their head. I mean, just consider these numbers alone, Pamela, that were out from

the U.N. just recently showing that about four million people have fled their war-torn Ukraine, but roughly seven million Ukrainians are still in their country either because they cannot or because they don't want to leave their homes, and for some of those who have their homes reduced to rubble, then this is the answer.

So the former governor so far has been able to transfer about 30 of these modules from Hungary into Ukraine, even to Bucha, and he does have hope that they will continue to be able to do this with his nonprofit and with this company in Hungary.

BROWN: All right, Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Coming up this hour, chain of events. The investigation under way tonight into why NFL quarter back Dwayne Haskins was hit and killed by a dump truck.

Meantime the president's top medical adviser says COVID protocols are, quote, "pretty strong" after dozens of people around Biden test positive. Pretty strong for the president, he made clear.

And an airline passenger claims he had no idea there was a sword concealed in his cane. You e heard that right. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Police in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, are looking for the shooter or shooters who opened fire inside a crowded nightclub overnight. Two people were killed and 10 others were injured. Investigators think it was a targeted attack and that the shooters might have slipped into the crowd of patrons rushing out of the club to make their escape.

We turn now to the tragedy in south Florida where NFL quarterback Dwayne Haskins was killed early Saturday morning. He was trying to cross an interstate on foot when a dump truck hit him. Investigators are trying to determine the circumstances that led to his death.

And joining me now is Dale Lolley. He covers the Steelers for DK Pittsburgh Sports. Haskins was in south Florida training with his Steelers teammates. What more can you tell us about his connection with the team?

DALE LOLLEY, EDITOR IN CHIEF, DK PITTSBURGH SPORTS: Well, you know, Pamela, thanks for having me on. Dwayne had joined the team at the end of the 2020 season after being released by Washington and immediately seemed to kind of mesh with his new teammates.

[19:20:12]

You know, we talked to him over the summer training camp last year and obviously with COVID he didn't get the opportunity to kind of get the talk to these guys as much as you normally would have. But he talked about how he wanted to kind of renew himself and use this as a fresh start and talked about how he was, you know, comfortable in his own skin now, how he was approaching teammates on a daily basis.

His new team mates and, you know, just striking up conversations with them to try to get to know them and become -- you know, get them to see him as being more of a leader. You know, that's one of the things that especially for young quarterbacks can be difficult at times and he was well-liked by his team mates. I think that the fact that, you know, Mitch Trubisky who is their new quarterback that they signed in free agent, not only invited, you know, the running backs and wide receivers down to his home in Florida but also invited Dwayne Haskins down to throw with those guys as well.

Kind of shows you where he was at in terms of his inclusion in the group and it really is a shame, I know a lot of the Steelers have put things out on social media kind of talking about this and it's just been awful.

BROWN: Yes, tell us a little bit more about the kinds of reactions and tributes that are pouring in in Pittsburgh and across the world.

LOLLEY: Yes, you know, we've seen reactions from Washington where he started his career, you know, Irvin Meyer who was his college coach is also, you know, put something out on social media. If you saw there was a piece that Chase Claypool who was one of the Steeler receivers, who was down in south Florida working out with him, put out a really emotional, you know, social media post that, you know, he was in tears.

You know, this is going to hurt for a while, with this team and this is not the first tragedy that's kind of befallen the Steelers here in the last couple of years. In 2019, their wide receiver coach Darrel Drake died during training camp in his room at St. Vincent College where the team trains, that was in August that year and kind of put a pall on that season. And then last year in June, the brother of Stephon Tuitt, a defensive end for the team, was also struck very much like Dwayne Haskins along a highway and killed.

And that was a hit and run accident and they still haven't found the killer yet in Atlanta, so this is, this is really hitting close to home for this team.

BROWN: Yes, so sad. And the Steelers quarterback role was wide open, Haskins was still young with a lot of potential. Can you talk to me about him as a player?

LOLLEY: You know, Dwayne was drafted 15th overall in 2019 and what happened, you know, in Washington is what happens in a lot of cases, they had a regime change there. A new coach comes in, he didn't draft Dwayne, he wants to bring in his own guy. So I can kind of see I think just kind of went south for Dwayne down there. There was some off the field stuff as well, but, you know, that happens with a lot of young players and he came to the Steelers with a fresh slate.

You know, as a clean slate and, last year was in competition with Mason Rudolph for the number two job. The Steelers eventually stuck with Mason Rudolph in that role. He's been with the team for a few years and so -- but he was going to get a chance this year to potentially replace Ben Rothlisberger in training camp and I know, you know, Kevin Culbert and Mike Tomlin, the head coach and GM, spoke openly about, you know, the promise that they felt that Dwayne Haskins has had and how he was kind of rebooting his career and for this to happen.

I mean, I was in shock when I heard it. I got a text about it Saturday morning before I could confirm it and, you know, I texted some people within the organization, you know, hoping that this was false and, you know, obviously it was true. It's just really, you know, when you cover sports as I do, you don't cover many of these kind of situations and, you know, when it's somebody who's 24 years old, I have two sons of my own, one is 26, the other is 22, so Dwayne's right in the middle of that and it really hits close to home.

BROWN: Definitely. It does. It's just so young to have lost his life, and so much potential for him.

Dave Lolley, thank you so much.

LOLLEY: No problem. Any time.

BROWN: Well, President Biden promised the U.S. would take in 100,000 refugees from Ukraine. Now dozens of lawmakers from both sides of the aisle say families are getting tangled in red tape. I'll speak to a lawmaker who's urging the Biden administration to do more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:39:16]

BROWN: The Biden administration has said that it will accept as many as 100,000 Ukrainian refugees but with the application process taking months or even years to complete, and thousands already waiting at the border many lawmakers are calling on President Biden to speed up the entry process,

My next guest is part of a bipartisan group of Congress asking the president to do more, Democratic Congressman Jim Langevin joins me now.

Hi, Congressman. Nice to have you on the show. Curious, what would you like to see the president do that would help these refugees that is not currently being done?

REP. JIM LANGEVIN (D-RI): Well, first of all, I want to commend President Biden for his leadership in so many levels, rallying the international community together and doing everything he can to get both humanitarian and military assistance to the Ukrainian people so they can defend their own country against this unjust war that Vladimir Putin and the Russians have perpetrated upon the Ukrainians, this unjust and unwarranted invasion.

[19:30:00] So we all want to do everything we can to make sure that we are

helping, as many Ukrainians get out of harm's way as possible. Look, the processes, it is too slow if people aren't out of harm's way. So we all feel that urgency.

We're just urging the administration to just continue to redouble its efforts to cut through the red tape and get rid of any kind of bureaucratic hurdles that might still exist so that we can get as many Ukrainians out of harm's way as possible those who can come to the United States, so we bring them here or getting them to other European countries to just out of harm's way.

BROWN: Yes, I mean, you've had thousands show up at the Southern border, taking those circuitous route there, because they were fleeing Ukraine, they heard that President Biden, the announcement that the U.S. is accepting 100,000 Ukrainians and they just didn't know how to get in, so they're showing up at the Southern border and waiting under tents hoping to come in.

I'm curious, why do you think the Biden administration announced that it will let in 100,000 refugees before having a solidified plan?

LANGEVIN: I think, it is twofold. First of all, the President feels the urgency when you see the news reports of the horrific attacks on civilians that have taken place, the President, like we all feel this sense of urgency, we want to just do everything we can to get those people to safety.

Certainly, we want to see a well thought out, thoroughly executed plan of being able to bring the people here that that need to come here or in other European countries. Certainly this holdups at the border, whether it's doctors to do the medical checkups, we need to get more medical professionals there to make sure that we clear those hurdles so that people can come in here, strengthening certainly TPS, the Temporary Protective Status is something else that we can work to expand upon by doing everything we can to just find out what the bureaucratic hurdles are, and just make it happen so that we can get those people, the Ukrainian people out of harm's way, and get them to safety.

BROWN: I'm curious why you think the administration isn't coming out and calling this a genocide at this point, and I want to go through this, the U.N. definition of genocide. It is acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.

This morning, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, downplayed the significance of the label genocide.

Do you think this is a genocide? And should the administration be more forceful and call it that?

LANGEVIN: Clearly, what we are seeing right now are war crimes being committed. This unjust invasion that Vladimir Putin has carried out against Ukrainian people is horrific. The news reports; clearly, the attacks on civilians, it looks like

executions in the streets against innocent civilians, all these things in my mind that the average person add up all to war crimes, and it appears on its face to be genocide.

And I'm sure that the administration, because of their perhaps, legal nuances and investigations that have to take place to get all your facts right before you call it a genocide, that stuff is -- these things are happening right now. Those investigations will go on as we get the facts right.

But I have no doubt that the administration will come to the conclusion, once all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed, that this is both war crimes that have been committed, and it is genocide.

BROWN: But it's interesting because President Biden came out and called Putin a war criminal, and some thought that was too soon that -- and just in the sense of all of the evidence hadn't been fully collected and put forth.

So it's just interesting, in light of what you said that he was willing to come out and call Putin a war criminal, and yet you heard Jake Sullivan this morning, not want to come out and label it that, but you know, we will see what happens in that regard. You said on its face, you believe it is genocide.

I want to ask you about this new poll that finds a majority of Americans disapproving of President Biden's handling of Ukraine with overwhelming support for sending more weapons.

I'm curious, do you think the President has been tough enough?

LANGEVIN: I think the President has done an exceptional job of getting both weapons and humanitarian aid to the Ukrainian people, and by the way, around the international community of NATO countries and European countries on the same page, pushing back against Russia and Vladimir Putin getting unprecedented cooperation and weapons contributions being sent to Ukraine.

[19:35:10]

LANGEVIN: So we're looking at absolutely everything that can be done, it should be done.

We had just had the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff before the House Armed Services Committee this past week. I asked Secretary Austin about what else we can do and should do to send additional more advanced weapon systems to the Ukrainians, perhaps systems that they perhaps need to be trained on first.

But we have the luxury of time, in a sense right now that we have this -- the Ukrainian people have been amazing in their courage and their tenacity and pushing back against Russia. So we have -- we can take this extra time, train the Ukrainians to add more advanced weapons systems, get them into their hands, so that they can more effectively push back against Russia, punish them for this unjust war. BROWN: I want to ask you quickly, before we go as we run out of time,

you're the cofounder of the Congressional Cybersecurity Caucus, and I'm wondering what your take is on why Russia has not launched a big cyberattack in Ukraine and also in the U.S., and if you expect that to come?

LANGEVIN: Yes, it's a very good question, and I am more surprised than less surprised that we haven't seen more offensive cyber operations coming from the Russians. But we need to be ever vigilant, stay tuned, because I think those types of cyberattacks could very well be coming, whether against Ukraine or Europe or the United States.

The Department of Homeland Security C.I.S.A., Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency has their, what is called Shields Up Program, and that can be a very helpful for in the act of obtaining more information about what people in companies can do to protect themselves.

But this is -- surely, it is something that we had expected, more cyber operations, but it could very well be the fact that, you know, we had been very well prepared and the Russians also know that we have offensive -- robust offensive cyber capabilities of our own that we could also punish Russia sharply and decisively if they were to attack us with offensive cyber weapons and a cyberattack that we would inflict devastating punishment back on them as well, and they may be thinking twice, but we can't take anything for granted. We have to prepare.

BROWN: All right, Congressman, Jim Langevin, thank you so much.

LANGEVIN: Thank you.

BROWN: We're going to talk about the pandemic next. Did you just roll your eyes? I bet you did. Well if you did, you may be part of why my next guest thinks the U.S. is facing its first "so what" wave of COVID.

Up next, I'll ask "The Atlantic's" Katherine Wu how not caring could cost us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:42:23]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: We've feel that the protocols around the President are sufficient to protect him, and as Jen said, the fact is he could get infected. We hope he doesn't. We'd do everything we can to protect him.

But remember, he is fully vaccinated, he is doubly boosted. And most of the time, people who get anywhere near him need to be tested. So we feel the protocol is a reasonable protocol. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Dr. Anthony Fauci sounding confident, as you heard there that the White House is keeping President Biden safe after a number of politicians tested positive, including nearly 70, after an elite dinner here in Washington, where I am now.

Also today, New York Mayor Eric Adams revealed that he tested positive and he attended several events in the past week. So, it's not clear where he got it. But we're told he has no symptoms other than a raspy voice.

Congresswomen Elaine Luria and Jackie Speier also announced positive COVID test results today. And on Friday, the White House said the President is quote, "living his life," and it does feel like a lot of Americans are giving COVID a shrug now that we have vaccines and treatments.

So let's talk about that with Katherine Wu. She covers science for "The Atlantic" and her latest piece argues that America is staring down its first "so what" wave.

Katherine, thank you so much for your time tonight. So, if you would explain a little bit more about what you mean by a "so what" wave?

KATHERINE WU, "THE ATLANTIC": Yes, so I think we are currently at this juncture where we are seeing cases rise in dozens of states across the U.S., and it is hard to know what that's going to mean for us.

You know, I certainly will not give a prediction about what will happen in the coming weeks, but it is certainly possible that we could be on the cusp of yet another wave, but we're in sort of a double bind here.

Testing has gone down so much in recent months that we may struggle to detect this wave as it is building, if it comes. And once it does, you know we've sort of set new guidelines and new attitudes across the country that we're not really going to react until cases get very high and hospitals start to fill up.

When we do this, it imperils the vulnerable and ask them to take on the early burden of the wave which is only going to get worse if we don't react to stop it early.

BROWN: Yes, and in this article you write, "Americans motivational tanks are near empty. The country's stance has for months been pretty much 'whatevs.' The next wave may be less a BA.2 wave and more a 'so what' wave, one many Americans care little to see because after two years of crisis, they care so little to respond."

[19:45:06]

BROWN: And I'm just wondering, the experts you spoke to, how concerned are they about this attitude? WU: Yes, so really, regardless of whether or not a wave is going to

happen in the next couple of weeks, this attitude is concerning because it seems like a regression, back to where we were a few years ago before the pandemic was here.

People don't want to deal with COVID anymore, and I understand that so, so, so very much. But I think it is this blase attitude that could get us into trouble. You know, the best public health measures that we take are the ones that are preventive. The ones we put into place early on, when things don't quite feel like they're a crisis, so that we can prevent that crisis from arriving.

I know there is fatigue, but we need to find a middle ground. I think that between feeling like we have the past couple of years and feeling like we've been putting all their energy into thinking about COVID, and where we were in 2019, there is a middle ground. We need to have something sustainable so that we don't have massive waves every few months.

BROWN: CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen, who is also a columnist at "The Washington Post" wrote, "Accepting that coronavirus infections will be part of our lives doesn't mean that we are giving up, rather, it means acknowledging that we finally have the tools to take away most of the coronavirus' terrifying consequences."

Do you agree from your reporting that we have the tools in place?

WU: I do agree, and I don't agree, I think we have made massive advances in technology. You know, the vaccines we have are incredible. We have developed antiviral treatments. We have tests to detect the virus. We are making inroads in ventilation. We have masks available.

But the availability of those tools is still not where we need it to be. We need more funding from Congress to really get those tools not just to, you know, most people, but to the people who most need them. Those tools need to be distributed equitably, which means they need to be prioritized, the communities that need the most and have been most impacted by the virus. That is not happening. That has not happened throughout the pandemic.

And I think until we put that lens on this, we're not going to reach a place where we can fully move on. Simply having tools in existence does not mean that tools are being distributed equally and being used by the people who need to use them.

BROWN: And of course, the U.S. is still waiting on more COVID funding from Congress. How big of a factor is that money on the impact that any new surge would have?

WU: It is a massive, massive factor. We're already starting to see the impact of this funding drying up. You know, the uninsured are unable to get free booster shots. We're seeing, you know, testing sites close. We may not be able to offer treatments to people who desperately need them, including high risk individuals who may not respond as well to vaccines. We also know that, you know, even if this funding comes through. It is

not nearly enough, it's less than half of what was called for initially. And it includes down at the international funding that is really necessary to stop the pandemic, which impacts the entire world from going on.

What happens in other countries is inevitably going to affect us. So this is a start, but it is nowhere near enough.

BROWN: Your piece also points out the importance of keeping an eye out for an uptick of cases in the northeast. Tell us more about that.

WU: Yes, so it's hard to say what is going on right now. We're certainly seeing an uptick in many states, especially in the northeast. But we know for a couple of waves that have preceded this hypothetical one, the northeast kind of has been on the bleeding edge of these surges, maybe in part because you know, places like New York and D.C., you know, a little south of northeast, but these are so well connected to the rest of the world.

And you know, there is decent surveillance in some parts of the country that are being affected right now, but we really need to be vigilant. I think it's also worthwhile saying here that we can expect there to be quite a bit of patchwork across the country. So you know, places may be going up while others are going down.

We shouldn't be fooled by an average plateau that is countrywide because we still going to have huge pockets of the country being severely impacted and that could still be a bellwether for the rest of us.

BROWN: All right, Katherine Wu, thank you so much.

WU: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: Well, you've heard the legend of the sword and the stone. Well now, thanks to an airline passenger, we have the story of the sword and the cane, and it may not even be the weirdest accessory the T.S.A. has found recently.

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BROWN: Legendary British rock band, Pink Floyd, is joining the fight for Ukraine, releasing their first original music in almost 30 years to support the country.

The single, "Hey, Hey, Rise Up" features the vocals of the Ukrainian singer who quit his tour to stay and fight for his country and was wounded in doing so. Hear his voice shine on the new track.

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BROWN: Pink Floyd guitarist, David Gilmour spoke with the Ukrainian singer, Andre, about doing the new song while he was hospitalized with a shrapnel injury. Wow.

Well, for more information on how you can help provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine, just log on to cnn.com/impact.

With all the incidents of airline passengers behaving badly these past few months, is it any wonder that the T.S.A. gave special scrutiny to a traveler's cane the other day, and it is a good thing it did.

[19:55:07]

BROWN: This was no ordinary walking stick. It concealed a full on sword. The man said he had no idea the blade was in there, according to a T.S.A. spokesman. The passenger surrendered it and went on his way on his trip. But that was not the end of it.

Two days later, another passenger tried to make it through security with a hairbrush concealing a dagger inside its handle. T.S.A. strongly recommends you do not try to get hidden items like this through airport security, to say the least.

That is disturbing. But fortunately, T.S.A. got it.

All right, still ahead on this Sunday, how a determined Ukrainian father made sure his daughter's 10th birthday was celebrated even when they're separated by war.

But first, there was no one like Anthony Bourdain and this is a story you haven't heard from the people who knew him best. "Roadrunner: A Film about Anthony Bourdain" premieres tonight at nine right here on CNN.

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