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Heavy Shelling in Kharkiv; Deadly Train Station Attack; Russian Assault in Donbas; Anastasia Radina is Interviewed about Ukraine. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 11, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Tens of thousands killed. Listen to that number. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy giving new, alarming insight into an incomprehensible death toll in a single Ukrainian city. This as Russia launches a fresh offensive in the Donbas region.

Good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Also this morning, a never-before-seen look at the destroyed theater in Mariupol. Take a look at that. Hundreds of lives were lost there. And President Zelenskyy says there are thousands more dead in that city alone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): Mariupol lies destroyed. Tens of thousands have been killed there. And, still, the Russians won't end their offensive. They want to make an example out of Mariupol as a city ruined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Zelenskyy went on to call Mariupol the heart of Ukraine.

This morning, the battle for Donbas is also underway. The fighting there expected to be a pivotal moment in this war where overnight Russian forces shelling yet another railway station in eastern Ukraine. Officials say there were no injuries, but trains and tracks were damaged.

SCIUTTO: Remember, railway stations are where civilians are trying to flee the country. Take a look at these new satellite images. This is an eight-mile-long

-- eight miles -- Russian convoy just east of the city of Kharkiv. It appears to be heading towards Donbas in the east, the new focus of the Russian offensive. Maxar Technologies says it is full of armored vehicles, artillery, support equipment. Reminds me of that one outside Kyiv a couple of weeks ago.

Vladimir Putin taking a fresh approach to the war, appointing Alexandr Dvornikov as the new commander of Russian forces in Ukraine. Dvornikov, also known as the butcher of Syria, notorious for afflicting brutality, atrocities on civilians. That is Putin's fresh look at this war. Even more disturbing than we've seen so far.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Phil Black joins us now from Lviv, Ukraine.

So, Phil, senior Ukrainian officials say that that offensive in the Donbas has now begun. What do we know?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim, that's right, much of the commentary on this points to coming or imminent offensive operations here when the view from Ukrainian officials is that this is already underway, such as the fact that they're already reporting extensive escalation of shelling and attacks and bombardment and so forth. Especially, they say, targeting residential areas.

You touched on that convoy of Russian vehicles moving into position. That backs up what we're hearing from Ukrainian officials as well. They say that they are seeing new forces, new hardware moving into this region almost daily.

Take a listen now to the mayor of Kharkiv describing what he has been see, what people in that eastern city have been experiencing in recent days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR IHOR TEREKHOV, KHARKIV, UKRAINE (through translator): We have seen ammunition that has a time delay. So, it strikes and then it waits a while before it explodes. Also, we have quite lethal ammunition being used where we have specific civilian targets aimed at.

I can also say that the Russian aggressor is bombing residential districts in Kharkiv, and as of today, we've had 1,617 residential buildings destroyed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: So, Ukraine is preparing to try and repel the coming Russian military operation, what they expect to e a strong sudden push to break through their defensive lines. But before that happens, the other big focus is getting civilians out of the region. There are many people still there, and officials at every level are emphasizing the need for them to leave as quickly as possible because -- well, they're in danger, but also they're in the way.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, thousands possibly still trapped there.

And as Jim alluded to earlier, there is new concern that this war will take an even more brutal turn after Vladimir Putin appointed that new military commander for Ukraine, Alexandr Dvornikov. His moniker is the butcher of Syria.

What more do we know about him?

BLACK: Yes, you're right. As you touched on, Dvornikov is a man with history. And it's the sort of history that is going to add to concern about the likely brutality of Russia's coming operations. He was the first lead commander in Russia's intervention in the Syrian civil war.

[09:05:02]

And that was a campaign that was notorious for the brutality that it was willing to commit against civilians, the suffering, the terror, the death notably on the city of Aleppo. A campaign that did ultimately swing that civil war towards the favor of the existing Syrian regime.

Now, we also understand that he will be working to something of a tight deadline because the broad analysis is that he has the job of getting tangible results on the ground before May the 9th, which is an important annual military celebration for Russia.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Phil Black, thanks so much.

And, I mean, listen, he has a history, that general, but Russia does. The fact is that Russia's strategy has been consistent. If you go back to Chechnya, in the late -- well, the mid and late 1990s, Syria and what you're seeing here now in these cities. That is the way they fight these wars.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, this general is walking into this new assignment himself being a war criminal given his past.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Well, listen, we're getting a new look at one piece of evidence of that. And that is the aftermath on the Russian attack on a Ukrainian railway station on Friday. Remember, this is a station, among many, where civilians, mostly women and children, are fleeing for their lives. And they got hit here.

We need to warn you, these images you're about to see, they're disturbing.

GOLODRYGA: They're very important, though, for us to get a sense of the scope of what's happening there in that country.

The strike on a train station filled with people, civilians, fleeing the area, killing at least 57, including five children. Remember, there were images of strollers that we saw last week. One hundred and nine people were injured.

Well, now, with the station out of service, civilians are boarding buses and trains trying to escape the growing threat.

CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The air raid siren rings out over a scene of carnage past. In Kramatorsk's railway station, a ripped shoe, a discarded hat, a cane left behind. They came to this station with only what they could carry, hoping to reach safer ground, but nearly 60 never left.

Lives cut short by a missile, on it someone scrawled in Russian, "for the children." Four thousand people were here waiting for a train west when the strike happened. The massacre accelerating the exodus.

WEDEMAN (on camera): Most of the residents of Kramatorsk have left the city, having been urged to do so by local authorities, as this part of the country, the entirety of eastern Ukraine, braces for what could be a massive Russian offensive.

WEDEMAN (voice over): At the city's bus station, Nikolay, a volunteer, has been helping with the evacuation. For him, news of the pullback of Russian forces around the capital Kyiv was bittersweet.

NIKOLAY, VOLUNTEER: When I heard about Kyiv, that they leave Kyiv, I was happy, you know. But then I realized a couple seconds later that they moving to Donbas, all their forces. I'm a little bit -- I'm not -- I can't say that I'm scared, but I'm worrying about -- about my people, about people, about mothers, about grandparents.

WEDEMAN: Some are heading west. Others, north, to the town of Slovyansk, where training still run.

Oksana and a friend and their children are bound for Lviv in the far west.

There's a lot of bombing here, says Oksana. I'm afraid for the children.

The children, thankfully, still children. A handful of adult relatives stay behind, far more aware of the danger ahead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And now we're back at this station. It's been largely cleaned up. But when -- after they cleaned it up, we were able to see things that we didn't see before, like this impact point. Now, this platform was crammed with people waiting to be evacuated.

And this just gives you an idea of how much shrapnel flew in every direction, causing that massive death toll of, at this point, 57, more than 100 wounded.

And they're still -- they washed the floor, but they still can't wash away what happened here.

Now, earlier we were just -- we were speaking with the mayor of Kramatorsk who said that they don't think the Russians are going to get to this city, but they're preparing for it just in case.

Jim. Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Like any war, you have to be prepared for any possibility, including the targeting of civilians, who we were just talking about.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Focusing on the remnants of that attack and highlighting that image of broken glasses.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: I don't know if those were children's glasses or what have you, but it just gives you a sense of all these lives in an instant uprooted.

SCIUTTO: Well, the power, too, of the weapon. That what we -- what you were seeing in the ground there, those kinds of -- the sort of daisy cutter holes in the ground are how the shrapnel came out from that bomb.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And if that's a crowded platform, that's a lot of people who lost their lives in that moment.

[09:10:02]

GOLODRYGA: Yes, our thanks to Ben Wedeman for that reporting.

Well, joining us now to talk about all of this is retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, CNN military analyst and former army commanding general for the Europe -- for Europe and Seventh Army.

Great to have you on this morning, General.

So, as we see this focus shift to a new assault there in the east. I'm curious to get your perspective on, a, how the Ukrainians are planning to fight back against the Russians now in this sort of option b of their invasion, but also the route that they're going to be able to get weaponry in. That typically comes from the west. It was easier to get to areas in the center of the country, like Kyiv. How much more difficult is it going to be to get cross country now all the way to the east? LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, it's going to be

challenging, Bianna. It always has been. But I think we're going to see more routes, more logistic supplier lines to Ukrainian forces. And, plus, they have something called interior lines. They can move a lot easier in the different directions that they'll be attacked from so they can reenforce with reserves to the north, to the south, to the east.

However, they're going to have to -- they're going to be required to have fast moving and adaptable forces. They have shown excellent military bearing throughout the first part of this campaign by conducting hasty attacks. They're going to have to build large reserves in order -- and get great ,intelligence which they've been getting so far, and as we heard Secretary Austin say the other day, they have been getting a lot of intelligence from NATO and the U.S. forces. That intelligence will be key in order to reenforce the points of main effort of the Russian army as they come in a couple of different directions on the eastern front.

SCIUTTO: No question. You deserve credit, General Hertling, because you have consistently identified Russian weaknesses in this war so far and Ukrainian strengths, which a lot of folks didn't do from the early stages.

I do want to ask you, as we see the progress of the war, as Russia suffers tactical losses on the battlefield, they are attacking civilian targets more and more when you look at Mariupol, right? And we have to expect the same in the east. But the size of those losses jumping by orders of magnitude from a few hundred in Bucha to, according to Zelenskyy, tens of thousands in Mariupol.

Should there be a red line for U.S./NATO intervention here, right? I mean because the history books are being written now of, in effect, the west standing by as civilians are slaughtered here.

HERTLING: Well, Jim, you know, one of the things that the Soviet Union was famous for during World War II was the (INAUDIBLE) massacre in Poland where they killed -- murdered 22,000 Polish officers. The Russians are going to become more famous for the kinds of criminal activity they've done in this war.

You mentioned the new commanding general of all the forces, General Dvornikov. His nickname is the butcher. I've had a lot of nicknames in my military career but butcher was never one of them. He's been assigned throughout the Russian army. He's a young officer, fought in the Chechnyan war. As an older officer, he commanded the forces in Syria. He certainly has a reputation and career experiences. But I suggest there's no military skill required to kill civilians, which seems to be the focus.

Going back to your question, is there going to be a red line, I can't comment on that. That's something that the politicians will have to talk about. But what I would say is, we continue to see murders and killings and these war crimes going on. Certainly, the one good thing about having General Dvornikov assigned as the commanding general of all the eastern front, he's going to be now the key military person that will stand for war crimes. You can't now divvy it up to other commanders. He's the man. Him and Putin both will be the ones that could be held accountable for these war crimes. How the United States and NATO will do that, I'm not here to say. But what I'll tell you is, there is certainly a great deal of fear about continuing war crimes that we've seen so far.

SCIUTTO: Well, we're still talking today about things like the Katyn massacre three generations later. And now we're watching similar history unfold before our eyes.

General Mark Hertling, thanks so much.

HERTLING: Thank you, Jim, Bianna.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, I'm going to speak live with a Ukrainian lawmaker who was on Capitol Hill recently asking for more help, more military aid. What she makes so far of the commitment from the U.S. and NATO.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, the French president is heading to a runoff with a far right candidate who is sympathetic to Putin. And the outcome of that election could have big implications for the war effort.

Also ahead, President Biden set to announce a new measure today to crack down on so-called ghost guns. We're live at the White House with more details.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:19:16]

GOLODRYGA: This hour, Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer is meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the latest attempt by NATO allies to keep lines of communication open with the Kremlin. Despite remaining militarily neutral throughout this invasion, Nehammer says Austria has a clear stance on the Russian war of aggression. The Austrian chancellor said before the meeting that he planned to tell Putin the truth of this war eye to eye, that Putin has de facto lost the war morally. Nehammer also called for humanitarian corridors, a cease-fire and a full investigation of war crimes.

SCIUTTO: Well, as Russia intensifies its offensive in the Donbas, including attacking civilians deliberately, Ukrainian authorities are organizing an enhanced evacuation in the area.

[09:20:02]

What does that mean? Getting people out quicker. Today, there are additional evacuation trains from Luhansk and Donetsk.

But this morning, the Ukrainian deputy prime minister has told CNN the humanitarian corridors, they're not working.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IRYNA VERESHCHUK, UKRAINIAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Our people are waiting for days. These are women, children, sick people, pregnant women. They are not able to use these corridors because the Russian side are not abiding by the cease-fire commitments, they're not fulfilling these commitments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is a member of the Ukrainian parliament, Anastasia Radina. She is now in western Ukraine, near the Slovakian border.

Anastasia, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

ANASTASIA RADINA, MEMBER OF UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT: Good morning.

SCIUTTO: First, I want to ask you, because a couple weeks ago you visited Washington to meet with lawmakers, ask for more help from Congress. As we see Russia not scale back, but, in fact, intensify its attacks, particularly on civilians, civilian targets, like train stations, are you satisfied with the help you're getting from the U.S.?

RADINA: Well, first of all, let me be clear, we are thankful for the help that we are receiving, and we welcome the Ukraine Democracy Defense Act that has recently been adopted by Senate. But our plea is that we need more. We need more heavy weapons to be coming to Ukraine in a very urgent and timely matter because otherwise we will not be able to save lives of civilians who are still staying in Mariupol without opportunity to evacuate and without more heavy weapons coming right now to Ukraine, we may see -- I will actually say we are sure to see more tragedies like that in Bucha repeated in Donetsk, Luhansk regions and in Kharkiv region.

SCIUTTO: Ukrainian forces, and frankly the Ukrainian people, will be meeting a new commander of Russian forces in the east. He goes by his nickname, the butcher of Syria, for the kind of warfare he waged there, which was a warfare oftentimes on the civilian population.

What change do you expect? Do you expect the people of the east now to see, well, more hell on the battlefield?

RADINA: Frankly speaking, I don't think we can differentiate between, you know, stages of hell that Ukraine is now going through. We already are facing genocide from Russian troops happening in Ukraine. Do we expect more genocide to happen? Should we not receive proper weaponry? Unfortunately, yes. And I think this is the time for the world to actually act in a very quick manner in order to prevent that from happening.

SCIUTTO: Yes, more genocide. The idea of just more of it.

When you say to act, are you talking just about weapons? Would you like to see direct intervention here to prevent more of these civilian casualties?

RADINA: We are not asking for, so to say, boots on the ground. We are asking for counteroffensive weaponry for us to be able to protect ourselves because we, once again, have to reiterate. Right now it is Ukraine and Ukraine forces who are fighting for every inch of NATO territory. And we do think we deserve proper weaponry to be able to stop war crazy dictator, which Putin is, who has no regards of international humanitarian law, for example, or international order.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

RADINA: This has to be stopped now. And these are Ukrainians who are stopping him. But this is not just our war. This is the world -- the war of the whole world which believes in, again, international order and international law and the freedom and human rights, et cetera.

SCIUTTO: There has been --

RADINA: This has to be stopped here and now by providing Ukraine with proper weaponry.

SCIUTTO: There has been some suggestion that Ukraine eventually make some concessions to Russia. Parts of the east, part of the Donbas, and acknowledge that Crimea is somehow Russian territories. Is that an outcome you would accept, and that you believe the Ukrainian people should be prepared to accept?

RADINA: Concessions to Russia is not the way to establish peace in Ukraine. We have been there and tried that, if I may put it like this. Since 2014 we have actually been on the front lines with Russia. And in 2014, when Russia occupied Crimea, when Russia established its puppet regimes in Donetsk and Luhansk regions, we were told not to escalate and we were told that that would bring peace. This never happened. After 2014, the world continued trading with Russia, doing business with Russia as usual, basically allowing Russia to accumulate money to make its army stronger. And where did that bring us? To 2024 (ph) with Russia waging full-scale unprovoked war in Ukraine.

[09:25:07]

So, we do not believe in concessions to Russia. We think the only way to actually establish peace and freedom and the very existence of Ukraine is to win on a battlefield.

SCIUTTO: Anastasia Radina, and I know you have a two-year-old son with you as well who is in Ukraine and facing this danger today. We wish you, we wish him, we wish your whole family safety. Thank you for joining us.

RADINA: Thank you. Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And still ahead, the political survival of a key member of western leadership hinges on a tense presidential election runoff. Can France's president, Emmanuel Macron, defeat a Putin ally? We're live in Paris next.

And we are just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks falling as investors focus on inflation and the impact of tightening by central banks. Also catching their attention, rising commodity prices amid Russia's

war on Ukraine and the Federal Reserve's monetary policy path forward. Investors will also be focusing on the big U.S. banks which kick off the first quarter earnings season this Wednesday.

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