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Russian Forces Pouring into Ukraine; Fighting in Eastern Ukraine; Paul Eaton and Shawn Turner are Interviewed about Fighting in Ukraine; New Inflation Numbers; Shooting in NYC Subway. Aired 9:00- 9:30a ET

Aired April 12, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:32]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Lord, echoes of World War II. New video this morning of intense fighting in the besieged city of Mariupol in southeastern Ukraine. A Ukrainian official says some 20,000 to 22,000 people have been killed in that city. But in yet one more gruesome measure of this war, warns that Russian forces are taking the bodies of those dead civilians away to conceal the actual number of casualties.

A very good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

Also happening now, U.S. and British authorities are investigating, following unconfirmed reports of a possible chemical weapons strike in Mariupol. One Ukrainian regiment claims several people have been affected by a, quote, poisonous substance of unknown origin. Now we should note that CNN has not yet independently verified any of these claims.

SCIUTTO: Ukraine's President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, says the war is entering, quote, a new stage of terror, again accusing Russia of committing war crimes. He says that Russian troops deliberately left thousands of mines in their wake as they were pushed out of areas surrounding the capital city Kyiv.

CNN covering the latest across the ground in Ukraine. Let's begin with CNN international correspondent Phil Black. He's in Lviv, in western Ukraine.

Phil, U.S. and British authorities, they are now investigating, they say, these, as yet, unverified reports that chemical weapons may have been used. CNN, we should note, has not independently verified these claims.

Where do things stand this morning and what are we hearing from Ukrainian officials?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, the report itself, the claim, the allegation, if you like, Jim, it comes from the soldiers themselves, the Ukrainian soldiers, who are still in Mariupol defending this city, although there's not much left to defend. These are soldiers that have been cut off for weeks, surrounded, pushed back into a very small piece of territory now. That battle appears to be approaching a really critical moment.

And it is at that moment that they have said that some sort of poisonous substance was dispersed near them. They say that some civilians were impacted as well. We're talking about small numbers, though. They say a handful of people, only three people required treatment. None of this is serious. But the symptoms, they say, people suffered were respiratory issues, problems with their eyes. But, as I say, not serious.

Now, as you pointed out, we can't confirm this, but nor can anyone else, and that's why the Ukrainian government, indeed U.K. officials, American officials as well, are very keen to try and understand what this is, if anything at all, because of the implication, the possibility that this was a chemical weapon of some kind, which, of course, has been one of the great warnings that has persisted through this conflict that it -- a chemical weapon could be used by Russia. If that was the case in this case, the consequences do not appear to be serious, Jim.

GOLODRYGA: Meantime, Phil, last night, President Zelenskyy reiterated what he's been saying for the past few weeks, and that is that Russian troops are leaving thousands of mines in their wake. It's what he said is happening in Mariupol as well.

How damaging is that for not only Ukrainian troops, but the civilians who are trying to flee?

BLACK: Yes, well, that is the real risk, Bianna. That's right. Ever since the Russians started pulling out from around Kyiv in the northern areas of Ukraine that they had occupied, there have been persistent warnings from officials in these regions that the places are simply too dangerous, that there are lots of explosives, mines. Indeed they said that certain things, including bodies, had been deliberately wired to explosives to detonate when disturbed.

Now, what Zelenskyy has done is given us a scale of just how great this problem is.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): The invaders left mines everywhere. In the houses they took over, just on the streets, in the fields. They mined people's property. They mined cars, doors. They deliberately did everything to ensure that the return to these areas after de-occupation was as dangerous as possible. Due to the actions of the Russian army, our territory today is one of the most contaminated by mines in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: So, he's talking about tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of explosive devices and mines left behind by the retreating Russian forces.

What this means is that these areas are not safe and that is why Ukrainian officials consistently tell people, although the Russians are gone, please do not come back home just yet.

[09:05:07]

They are working to clear these areas, but it's going to take time.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And those mines can last many years after war. We've seen that in so many places.

Phil Black, in Lviv, thanks so much.

Also new this morning, U.K. intelligence officials say that fighting in eastern Ukraine will intensify over the coming weeks. CNN has now geolocated this video showing a large column of Russian military vehicles. They appear to be headed in the direction of the Donbas region in the east. Bianna, it gives you a sense of the kind of battle Ukrainians are bracing for there.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, reminiscent of the signs there and the images of that 40-mile convoy at the start of the war.

CNN's Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon with more.

And, Barbara, Ukrainian officials are also reporting increased shelling and civilian casualties in parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions. What more are we learning?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think we're beginning to see it all take shape, what has been predicted for so many days now, which is the battle, the heavy combat moving to the south and east. You see the Russian weapons moving in, you see the reports of shelling. This is where the focus now by the Russians is clearly going to be. It is where Putin thinks he will be able to declare a victory. He has a new general in charge. The combat is expected to only grow more heavy.

But there's a couple of things also going on. The weather is not in the Russians' favor. A period of heavy rain is expected. That is going to turn a lot of this into a sea of mud and force the Russians to stay on paved roads. That may make them a target for Ukraine forces because they will be able to predict then where and how the Russians are moving because they won't be able to go across open fields with their heavy weapons when there's so much mud there. So that may, at least temporarily, work to the favor of Ukraine forces.

But right now, for the Ukrainians, the real challenge is to get the heavy weapons that they say they so desperately need, armor, artillery, long range radar, the kinds of things they believe very desperately that they need to fight against the Russians in this very kind of environment.

Bianna. Jim. GOLODRYGA: Yes, they have been desperately asking for more weapons in the past few days, I think, at a larger scale than they have throughout this war.

Barbara Starr, thank you.

Well, joining us now to discuss is retired Army Major General Paul Eaton and Shawn Turner, a CNN national security analyst and former director of communications for U.S. National Intelligence.

Welcome, both of you.

General Eaton, let me begin with you, because as we turn to this new phase of the war, from a guerrilla warfare, which had benefited the Ukrainians surrounding Kyiv, to now more of a conventional war on the Donbas and eastern region, what are some of the challenges that the Ukrainian forces are likely to face given the size and scope of the Russian army?

MAJ. GEN. PAUL EATON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you very much for having me.

And to borrow from Yogi, this is deja vu all over again. This reminds me of the '70s and '80s, when I served with NATO forces along the inner German border. And we would map the anticipated Soviet army Warsaw Pact army's approach. And the battlefield math is, Ukrainians have got to kill targets faster than they present. And if you get behind, and getting behind can be just sheer numbers of presentation or the Russian predicted use of heavy artillery right in front of their own forces.

So, we can anticipate a crude combined arms operation going from east to west, and the Ukrainians simply have to have systems that will kill faster than the Russians can present.

SCIUTTO: Do they, Shawn Turner, have those systems in sufficient numbers? It's CNN's reporting that the new focus of U.S. and NATO weapons supplies to Ukrainian forces will favor now more tanks, for instance, heavy artillery, the subject of MiGs has come up again. Can they get those weapons and will they have enough?

SHAWN TURNER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS FOR U.S. NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Yes, Jim, you know, it's a good question. And I think if we go back and look at the security assistance the United States and the international community has been providing to Ukraine, up until this point it has been primarily focused on weapons. What we have not seen so far are complete systems. And so while I think that the security assistance has been unprecedented, it has come fast and it has really helped the Ukrainians make the -- have the accomplishments that they've had, I think that as we see this new phase of a conflict, we really do need to help the Ukrainians with systems.

At this point, directly to your question, Jim, I think that it's -- they don't have enough right now.

[09:09:57] And I think that as we watch Russia make adjustments on the battlefield, as we watch them relocate troops, and as we see that they begin to work with a new military commander who has quite a reputation, the Ukrainians are going to need to be able to match the Russians' onslaught with weapons systems that will allow them to not only know what the Russians' intent is at any particular time, but to also to be able to be both defensive and offensive as they try to hold off the Russians.

GOLODRYGA: General, as western officials and Ukrainian officials there analyze the possibility of the use of chemical weapons on the part of Russians, I'd like to get your thoughts on what a U.S. response would look like, because unlike his predecessor, when President Obama had drawn that infamous red line, President Biden has said that a response would be proportionate in size, obviously leveling a sense of ambiguity in terms of what that response would look like.

What is a proportionate response in your view to a chemicals attack?

EATON: Well, I hesitate bringing up the use of the U.S. military or NATO military, but that is clearly an option. And it is a statement before the fact, if you do this will happen from a military perspective. That's got to be the alliance coming forward with a statement.

The anticipated response is probably going to be economic and has to be thought out today instead of in extreme. And the economic power of NATO, of the United States, brought to bear must include a complete cessation of all energy exports coming out of Russia. That's the jewel and the economic warfare crown right now.

SCIUTTO: Yes, that income from energy is, frankly, at this point, a subsidy to the Russian war machine.

Shawn Turner, before we go, there are a whole host of chemical weapons, as you know, from the most powerful nerve agents to others still devastating, like chlorine and phosphorous, but not quite as devastating. And I wonder, should there be a difference in response from the U.S. and the west based on exactly what chemical weapons, if it's determined they were used on the battlefield?

TURNER: Yes, you know, Jim, this is something national security officials and experts have been thinking about a lot. If you -- if we go back to what happened in Syria, we know in Syria that chemical weapons were used, but those were weapons that were not on our list of chemical weapons that have been banned and would evoke such a response. And that was very difficult for the Obama administration.

I think, at this point, we have to send a clear, concise message that it's not about what chemicals you use, that -- but that it's about the use of chemical weapons in this conflict. And while I know that, you know, we have a clear list, look, the end result is the same. If Russia decides to use chemical weapons, it is to kill civilians indiscriminately. And under those circumstances, we should take a step back and make a decision that it's not about the chemical weapon you used, but whatever we're going to do is in response to the use of any chemical weapon once it's confirmed.

SCIUTTO: Major General Paul Eaton, Shawn Turner, thanks so much to both of you.

The breaking news this morning, the U.S. Labor Department out with new inflation numbers this morning. They're high. The highest inflation, in fact, rate in the U.S. in more than 40 years.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, let's bring in CNN chief business correspondent Christine Romans.

Christine, these prices continue to go up, specifically food and gas.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and shelter. And these are things that people can't get around paying for.

This is -- these numbers reflect what Americans have been saying in all of these sentiment polls. This is a situation where just about everything is going up, 8.5 percent inflation increase year over year. That's the -- that's a strong, strong number. And then you look at month over month, wow, up 1.2 percent, that's the biggest one-month spike since September 2005. That was Hurricane Katrina. So that's because of Putin's war in Ukraine and what happened with energy prices in the month of March.

That's what the chart looks like. That looks like straight up faster even than the month before.

When you dig into some of the sectors, it's just about everything year over year. Some of these sectors setting records.

You see used car there, though. That's up year over year. But for the month it was down a little bit. And that's something that we're really closely watching, any signs of moderation here. There's some economists who say, as terrible as these numbers look, there are signs in here showing that this could be the peak being put in, because, in the past month, from is form the end of March, right, in the past month, energy prices have come down quite a bit from that peak at the beginning of the invasion. In fact, oil prices are now back to where they were before Putin invaded Ukraine. And that is a really key detail here.

But, again, the fastest inflation rate since December 1981.

[09:15:02]

And the big drivers here, gas, shelter and food.

You also look at these numbers, you see airfare and lodging also up very sharply. That's a sign of American consumers shaking off that omicron surge, getting back to normal. They want to spend money. So you have this huge consumer demand chasing after supply. Supply and demand, that's what causes prices to rise.

GOLODRYGA: Let's hope some of these economists are right when they say this is the peak. ROMANS: I sure hope so.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching.

Christine Romans, thanks so much.

And in just a few minutes I'm going to speak with a member of the White House Council of Economic Advisers to ask those questions, get their take on these inflation numbers and what the administration's doing about it.

GOLODRYGA: Also ahead, Ukraine's prosecutor general is now investigating nearly 6,000 reports of Russian war crimes. A human rights lawyer will join us live from Kyiv.

And a U.S. ambassador says justice has once again been denied for an American detained in Russia for more than two years. We'll have an update on Trevor Reed's case.

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[09:20:16]

GOLODRYGA: And just in to CNN, breaking news here in New York. Police are responding to a shooting on the subway system in Brooklyn.

SCIUTTO: Yes, emergency units responding now.

CNN's Jason Carroll joins us live.

It is early, Jason. What do we know?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're getting more information on this, Jim. But what we can tell you is according to the FDNY, they said upon arrival they said that their units discovered multiple people shot. They say that they also discovered several undetonated devices at that same subway location in Brooklyn. However, they did not clarify specifically what those undetonated devices were at that location. Again, this just coming in to us, just happening at the 36th Street and 4th Avenue subway station there in Brooklyn.

We should also tell you this comes at a time, on the heels of a number of attacks at subway stations, as you know here in New York City. Just recently one, a shooting, on March 20th at a subway station. Another subway attack on March 2nd also in Brooklyn. Just in January, New York City's new mayor, Eric Adams, said that he was going to require more police officers to patrol more frequently at some of these subway stops to try to lure subway riders back into the system. A number of people here in the city living on edge as they've seen crime in certain areas starting to tick upwards.

Again, this information coming to us from 36th Street and 4th Avenue, in Brooklyn. The FDNY, again, reporting multiple people shot there at that location. Again, several undetonated devices at that location. But, again, unclear specifically what those devices are. You can see there from the NYPD now tweeting out there an advisory

saying, due to an investigation, avoid the area of 36th Street and 4th Avenue there in Brooklyn.

We're going to try to get some more information for you on specifically what is happening at this time, but wanted to give you the update with the information that we had.

Back to you.

SCIUTTO: Jason, do stay with us. We know you'll be getting updates soon.

I want to bring Jonathan Wackrow, CNN security analyst here.

It's early, Jonathan, of course, so we're working on the barest of details here. Police saying multiple people shot. But this possibility, as identified by the FDNY, of undetonated devices, explosive devices, what significance do you see in that detail?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (via telephone): Well, listen, Jim, it's actually too early to tell right now. This is a very dynamic situation that's playing out near real time for the viewers.

I think that at this point in time, it's important for people to understand that this is -- this type of situation is something that the FDNY, the NYPD and all first responders in New York have trained for. They're very well prepared to respond to these dynamic situations.

So, while we don't have a lot of information right now as to the genesis of this event, how it transpired, and really a lot of the details, what we do know is that there's a coordinated response in progress, right now, by all of city entities, the city of New York, and, you know, people should feel comforted by that.

GOLODRYGA: And, Jonathan, it comes at a time when New York City Mayor Adams has increased law enforcement's presence in the subway system throughout this city in response to a spike in crime, given the increased police presence within the subway system here in New York, in terms of when we will be getting more details and how a response unfolded and getting more details as to who this perpetrator was, what role does that play having more police officers there in the vicinity?

WACKROW: Well, listen, New York City is not immune to what is going on around the country. We're seeing rising crime in every major metropolitan city. And what we're also seeing is the after effect of the pandemic as people start coming back into the workforce, as people start coming and commuting once again, crime is on a significant rise in the transit system.

Major cities' police chiefs and mayors are responding to this by putting more uniformed officers to prevent, you know, violent criminal acts on transit systems across the country. Mayor Adams has come into office, you know, with that -- with that goal of making New York City safe. But this takes time. There's a lot of recovery that this city needs to make over, you know, different issues that have, you know, come about in terms of, you know, criminal prosecution and being able to prosecute those who are, you know, committing violent crimes.

[09:25:07]

So -- but it all starts with putting the cops back on street, fighting crime, to make communities much safer.

SCIUTTO: We have seen a focus on subway stations, Jonathan Wackrow, for a number of years in New York, not just with the rising rates of violent crime there, but also as potential terror targets. I mean this is a priority and has been, of course, going back to 9/11 for the New York Police Department.

So, tell us when you have a situation like this, what steps do they take to determine what exactly happened here?

WACKROW: Well, listen, you know, first you have to, you know, see, was there any type of precipitating event? Where did this incident take place? Was it on the subway or was it on the subway platform? What type of items of evidentiary value can we -- investigators start piecing together? Is there any type of video evidence? Investigators and detectives will start looking and speaking to witnesses that, you know, saw this, you know, crime occur, really trying to piece together the intent of the action of the individual.

From there, you know, it's an investigative process. We have to find the shooter. They have to get him in custody. So, right now, NYPD, I'm sure is rapidly deploying all of their resources to, you know, containing this unmitigated threat at this moment in time. Again, all with public safety in mind.

GOLODRYGA: You mentioned the role of witnesses.

I want to go back to Jason Carroll, because in this day and age, we get so much information live with witnesses there on the scene via Twitter and other social media platforms.

What more have we been learning since this shooting first occurred?

CARROLL: Yes, and, Bianna, and especially when you consider this happened during rush hour, on a crowded subway system there in Brooklyn. So, theoretically, NYPD when they're down there, going to be looking for any witnesses who can -- who can describe the suspect or suspects in this particular case. Again, just to recap, because the information is still the information that we had from earlier that we -- that we had received, multiple people shot at that subway location there in Brooklyn. Again, several undetonated devices, but the FDNY not specifying exactly what those devices were there at that particular location.

And, again, I know you were talking there about crime a short while ago. You know, again, it should be noted that just recently the NYPD had announced that shootings in New York City rose during 2022's first quarter compared with the same period last year, even though homicides for that same period seemed to decline. But very clearly, for those who live in New York City, there is a feeling here in the city that crime is on the rise. You know, it's not just -- it's -- you know, the statistics, the numbers there, people are really feeling it here. And this incident is just going to add to that. That's why just in January you had New York City's new mayor who is a former police officer himself who is -- who made it very clear that this is going to be one of his number one priorities to get at crime here.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CARROLL: And now you've got this other situation that's now unfolding here in Brooklyn right now.

SCIUTTO: Jason Carroll, thanks so much. Of course, we'll bring you new details as we have them. As we said there, police and fire department now responding to and investigating a shooting at a New York subway station in Brooklyn. The first reports are multiple people shot. The details still unclear at this moment. We're going to bring you new details as we have them.

Meanwhile, we're going to take a short break.

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