Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Ukraine Says, Russia Take Revenge For Sinking of Key Warship; Heavy Russian Shelling Reported Along Donetsk Frontlines; Texts Show GOP Lawmakers Encouraged, Then Soured on Overturning Election. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 15, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Ukraine says that Russia is trying to take revenge for the loss, the sinking of one of the jewels of the Russian Navy. That ship, the Moskva, now sits at the bottom of the Black Sea. The U.S. says that Ukraine's claim of a missile strike on the ship is credible. U.S. officials tell me this morning Russian forces claim they have struck back, targeting military facilities on the outskirts of the capital, Kyiv.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN NEWSROOM: Right now, air raid sirens can be heard across several parts of Ukraine as heavy shelling is reported in the Donetsk region. And in Mariupol, the last two Ukrainian military units in that city are working to fend off Russian forces, a senior defense official telling CNN that Mariupol is in, quote, a dire position.

Let's begin this morning with CNN's Brianna Keilar in Lviv, in Western Ukraine. Brianna, Russia claims that they have struck a military facility on the outskirts of Kyiv using a high precision long-range sea launch missile. What more are you learning?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, this is according to the Russian government that they struck outside of the Kyiv area, or in the Kyiv area. But I will tell you, we were watching last night and it was something that we hadn't really seen in a long time, which was looking at air raid alerts across the country. Every region was lit up red on the map at the same time, so every place under an air raid alert. And this morning, it was almost every region in Ukraine that was under an air raid alert.

Of course, the real focus right now is on the east, what's being called the battle for Donbas that is looming in the eastern part where Russian troops have amassed there. I was talking to the military governor of Donetsk there about what he expected from the timeline, because the French military has said they expect this to be in the next few days. The U.S. assessment hadn't been so specific that it was going to be in the next couple weeks. Here's what he told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAVLO KYRYLENKO, MILITARY GOVERNOR, DONETSK REGION: I believe it is a matter of several days, rather than weeks, and, therefore, I have been calling on all the population in the area to evacuate as soon as possible because -- and we are taking practical measures to enable this evacuation, because the enemy is not going to wait. They have a column of heavy armored vehicles waiting with personnel that is exposed to our efforts to destroy it, and they will continue heavy artillery strikes on civilian populations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What he also said is that weather is an issue right now. There is rain happening here in the western part of Ukraine, in Lviv, and it's heading towards the east. And he said the rain is creating conditions that is very hard to move heavy armored vehicles, as you can imagine, a lot of them have to moved through fields. This is sort of a plains-type area, a lot of dirt that will turn into mud.

The question is going to be then with all of this additional U.S. weaponry that is heading to the region, is it going to get there in time, and Jim and Bianna, we just don't know the answer to that at this point.

SCIUTTO: Yes. They're moving it very quickly. Some of it made to the frontlines quickly but it's a lot further in the east now. Brianna Keilar in Lviv, thanks so much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Sitting on a hospital bed, Uliana recounts the night her house was hit. I was in the kitchen and it started, she says. Her home is now in ruins.

More than 20 corpses like scattered in the hospital's morgue, wrapped in sheets and blankets awaiting burial.

On the outskirts of the city, more evidence of the toll the war has taken.

This is a hastily dug graveyard that was started since the war began. Just look at the dates, 7th of April, 9th of April, 3rd of April, 4th of April. It goes on and on and on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Ben Wedeman joins us now from Kramatorsk, Ukraine. Ben, what is it like where you are there right now? WEDEMAN (on camera): Well, Kramatorsk, this morning, Bianna, there was a strike on an industrial facility. We have a very large blast and social media here showed a large white plume of smoke coming from up above it.

Here, the city seemed -- feels a little bit like a zombie apocalypse. There's very few people left here. In fact, the regional military administrator of the Donetsk region has said that every frontline city is under attack. And, certainly, what we saw yesterday in Severodonetsk has certainly confirmed that.

[10:05:04]

We understand that north of that town, the Russian forces are massing troops and artillery, and when I say north, I really mean just on the outskirts of Severodonetsk. So, certainly, you do get the feeling that this entire Donbas region is bracing for this offensive. Bianna?

SCIUTTO: And they've been moving a lot of forces in that direction and heavy, heavy weaponry. It's going to be ugly, I'm told. Ben Wedeman there, thank you so much.

Well, the danger on the outskirts of capital, Kyiv, continued despite those Russian forces moving to the east. Earlier this week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said that retrieving Russian troops deliberately left behind thousands of mine in what he considered a war crime, given that they intend to strike civilians.

Our next guest is in Kyiv, Retired Lieutenant Colonel John Culp, he serves as country coordinator for Ukraine on behalf of Bomb Techs Without Borders. And he traveled to Ukraine from North Carolina. It's good to have you on, sir. Thanks so much for the work you're doing there.

LT. COL. JOHN CULP (RET.), U.S. ARMY SPECIAL FORCES: Well, thank you very much. Good morning.

SCIUTTO: You're watching a particular aspect of this war, right, and that is weapons left behind often, while mine is one, but also these cluster bombs that stay behind because not all of them explode on impact, they're designed time to explode later, deliberately to target civilians. Based on what you've seen on the ground there, do you see evidence of war crimes in the use of these munitions?

CULP: I personally cannot say that I have. Basically, what I've been working is in the Chernihiv and Hostmel area. We've been clearing a place where there was a huge battle fought in the early days of the war at the Hostomel Airport. Most of the stuff that we find is remains from munitions that exploded when the various Russian tanks and armored personnel carriers and other vehicles were destroyed. So, that's pretty much conventional artillery and small arms.

SCIUTTO: Got you, which would retain danger after the fact. I mean, when you look at the pictures, and by the way, we're showing some pictures of the work you were doing there, but given the scope, the scale of the battle and the scale of the Russian forces that came in, ammunitions they carried, are there enough people there, combination of folks like you and Ukrainians to clear the areas, make it safe for civilians?

CULP: We need more techs. We are working with the Ukrainian National Police right now, which has the principal responsibility for clearing these liberated areas. And we definitely need more technicians. I'm actually trying to develop a training course with Bomb Techs Without Borders that will support the hire of new personnel into the National Police Technical Department, who obviously would not be trained as bomb techs. We're going to try to run a couple of different courses that will get them various levels of expertise for dealing with this challenge.

SCIUTTO: You look at previous war zones, Vietnam, Laos, for instance, a lot of weapons decades later pose a threat to civilians and take civilian lives and injured civilians. Does Ukraine face the same kind of future?

CULP: Very possibly. Now, my understanding is that the Ukraine, or Ukraine plans to get demining -- you know, we're going to do the initial clearance, remove the explosives that we find. We have certain procedures to deal with very sensitive things, like the cluster bombs. So, we're going to get those things out of the way, but there's -- and we're dealing with mines. I mean, they're seeing lots of these little PMN-4 mines, which is about the size of a chicken pot pie, and they left them everywhere.

Now, they didn't leave them very much at Hostomel because, like I said, they were overrun at Hostomel early on and they really didn't have much more time to do more than hasty defensive networks. And, of course, they didn't really pull out of Hostomel. They were destroyed at Hostomel.

SCIUTTO: Now, when they leave those behind on retreat, what is the function of that? Is that to cover your retreat or is it deliberately intended to exact the prize from the civilian population?

CULP: Well, it kind of depends on where they are. I mean, if you see the farmers field with mines, that's just designed to mess with the civilians. I mean, that's what that's for. But there certainly are some legitimate military uses for mines, play stage a retreat, to slow down pursuing forces and things like that and sometimes they're laid right on the surface. I mean, you still got to stop and deal with it even though you can see it.

[10:10:01]

But buried mines in farmers' field, clustered munitions used on civilians targets with no military value, there's no real good justification for that from a military standpoint.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you because, again, we've been showing pictures of you and your teammates there to picking this stuff up, right? You're experts, but also, as experts, you know the dangers. You are risking your life there. As an American in Ukraine in this war, explain why, tell us why you're willing to do it. CULP: Well, I've thought about that a lot. Part of it is I feel like Ukraine is fighting the war we were planning to fight 30 years ago. Lots of my colleagues were in Europe preparing to meet the Russian attack. It never came, but Ukraine is facing that right now with, frankly, the Russians using about the same weapons that they might have used 30 years ago. And that's one reason.

Another reason, I feel like this may sound a little weird but I feel like it's an elemental struggle of good against evil. I mean, the Ukrainians are trying to do the right thing. They're a sovereign country. There's no reason in the world, there's no justification in the world why Vladimir Putin should invade a sovereign country on his border and, you know, murder thousands of civilians in the process.

SCIUTTO: As Ukrainians often say, they're fighting this war for themselves and for us.

Lieutenant Colonel John Culp, I appreciate the work you're doing and I'm sure a lot of folks watching right now appreciate it as well.

CULP: Thank you, sir. I appreciate the time.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, Russian President Vladimir Putin's miscalculations, the threats he is now making worse if Sweden and Finland move to join NATO in reaction to the Russian invasion.

GOLODRYGA: Up next, a CNN exclusive, new text messages show how two Republican lawmakers turned on then President Trump's idea of overturning the 2020 election, one going so far as to write, this will end badly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Exclusive CNN reporting this morning, text messages that show how two Republican lawmakers soured on efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. Those texts were with then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows in the weeks between the election and the January 6th insurrection of the capital.

GOLODRYGA: The never before seen exchanges show how the Trump allies went from encouraging the White House's efforts to warning Meadows about the devastating consequences with the former president's claims of election fraud.

CNN's Ryan Nobles has the exclusive story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Senator Mike Lee of Utah and Congressman Chip Roy of Texas, two of former President Donald Trump's most loyal defenders in Congress. But in dozens of private texts to Trump's Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, a picture emerges of how both went from aiding the efforts to challenge the election results, to ultimately warning against it. The texts obtained by CNN show how they were trying to help initially but, by the end, raised concerns to Trump's deputy about his campaign's effort standing in the way of the certification of the 2020 election.

We're driving a stake in the heart of the federal republic, Roy warned Meadows in a text on January 1st, that is in possession of the January 6th select committee.

Historic warning came after weeks of begging Meadows for hard evidence of election fraud and concerns that the lack of specific evidence was a real problem for the Trump legal team. We must urge the president to tone down the rhetoric, he wrote to Meadows on November 9th.

Roy did believe that there were problems with the election. In early December, he went to the House floor, imploring his colleagues to look into the thin examples of fraud.

REP. CHIP ROY (D-TX): The American people are raising legitimate questions about our elections and this body is missing in action and doing nothing.

NOBLES: Like Roy, Senator Mike Lee started out hopeful that there was a path to challenge election results. In early November, he touted the work of conservative lawyer Sidney Powell, encouraging Meadows to get her an audience with the president, calling her a, quote, straight shooter. But less than two weeks later, Powell appeared with Rudy Giuliani in what would become an infamous press conference where the duo made wild, baseless claims about the election.

SIDNEY POWELL, ATTORNEY WHO CHALLENTGED 2020 ELECTION RESULTS: President Trump won by a landslide. We are going to prove it.

NOBLES: Lee then changed his tune, calling Powell a liability and turning his focus to touting Attorney John Eastman.

Lee pushed a plan to convince state legislatures to offer up a set of alternate electors. When that plan fizzled, Lee decided he was no longer on board.

He texted Meadows on December 16th, quote, I think we are now past the point where we can expect anyone will do it without some direction and a strong evidentiary argument.

Both Lee and Roy ultimately chose not to join other Republicans to vote against certifying the election.

SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Our job is to open and then count, open, then count. That's it. That's all there is.

NOBLES: Privately, they were they are more emphatic about the fool's errand Trump's team was on. The president should call everyone off. It's the only path, Roy texted Meadows on December 31st, while Lee argued the effort was on dangerous constitutional ground.

[10:20:04] Three days before January 6th, he warned, I know only that this will end badly for the president unless we have the Constitution on our side. They did not.

But the Trump team and a group of loyal Republicans went ahead with their plan anyway. As it became clear, their effort would not be successful, hundreds of Trump supporters stormed the Capitol in protest. As the violence was raging, Roy texted Meadows, fix this now.

He then went to the House floor and placed the blame squarely at President Trump's feet.

ROY: And the president should never have spun up certain Americans to believe something that simply cannot be.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (on camera): And the volume of these texts, which are now all in the possession of the January 6th select committee really shows a lot about what was going on behind the scenes between the White House and members of Congress during the lead-up to January 6th. And it also shows some real reservations from both Roy and Mike Lee.

I want to just give you an example of how this all played out as it pertains to Chip Roy of Texas. He initially seemed to be all-in on the plan. On november 7th, he said, dude, we need ammo. We need fraud examples. We need it this weekend. He apparently wasn't getting it because November 19th, he texted to Meadows, we need substance or people are going to break.

Then he started to raise concerns about the Trump legal team by November 22nd saying, frigging Rudy needs to hush, talking about the former mayor of New York City, and then he was out by the end of December, on New Year's Eve, texting Meadows, saying the president should call everyone off.

And, of course, Jim and Bianna, it was very clear that despite these messages that Mark Meadows was getting from people very loyal to Donald Trump, they were just not listening because they forged ahead anyway and then we saw everything that took place here on January 6th.

SCIUTTO: Some were willing to go with the plan before there was hard evidence and yet some continued to go with the plan after, there was no evidence in the election confirmed to be fair.

Some of Senator Lee's texts on Sidney Powell in particular became sort of a leader on this, made a U-turn. What more can you tell us about that change?

NOBLES: Yes. You know, what we've learned about these text messages as it relates to Senator Lee is that he was all-in. He wanted to help find a legal path to prevent the certification of the election results, and he particularly seemed to be very interested in Sidney Powell leading that charge. He called her a straight shooter. He begged Meadows to try and get her in front of the president, but he really soured on Powell after that kind of weird press conference that took place with Rudy Giuliani.

And on November 19th, just ten days after calling her a straight shooter, he texted this to Mark Meadows, he said, quote, unless Powell can immediately substantiate what she said today, what she said in that press conference, the president should probably disassociate himself and refute any claims that can't be substantiated. He then went on to say, this is a specially bad combination when you consider the damages that could be claimed and indeed proven and the deep pockets that are involved.

And so Lee expressing reservations, but right up until the end of December, beginning of January, still believe that there was a path to stand in the way of the certification of the election. When Trump and his associates didn't go with the plan that he had hoped, the state legislators specifically offering up an alternate state of electors, that's when he got out, did not vote to object to the election and warned that the path they were heading down could lead to a constitutional crisis.

SCIUTTO: In that text there, Ryan, he's talking about financial damages or damage to the Constitution and democracy?

NOBLES: I think it's hard to interpret it specifically because we only have these texts. We don't have all of the context around it, but it's clear he was concerned both from a legal perspective and future liabilities that could be incurred as a result of the path that they were heading down.

SCIUTTO: Future liabilities, yes.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Interesting, the response too, Ryan, was the text speaks for themselves. Thank you so much.

Well, still ahead, as Russia suffers a massive setback, its naval flagship now at the bottom of the Black Sea, what will Vladimir Putin do next and what should the west expect as Russia's miscalculations just accumulate?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

GOLODRYGA: Well, just into CNN, the first U.S. flight of new military aid for Ukraine on its way and should arrive in the next 24 hours.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The first flight of this latest tranche of weapons going in, the latest of many.

CNN's Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr joins us now. Barbara, the biggest question here has been speed, right, how quickly can these new weapons get, particularly as the fighting amps up in the east. What do we know?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is a demonstration the Pentagon says of how fast they can get things to the region. In fact, yes, the first tranche of the new $800 million arms package will arrive in the region in the next 24 hours. They never say exactly where it will land, for security reasons, but the material picked up by Ukrainians and either trucked or put on railroad into Ukraine and taking it across the country to the Donbas presumably to that eastern region where the fighting is expected to only grow in the coming days.

[10:30:03]

Now, they also won't say exactly what's on this shipment but what we do already know --