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Germany Impounds Yacht Linked to Russian Billionaire; Russia Protests U.S. Weapons Shipments to Ukraine; Zelenskyy Addresses Russian Nuclear Threat. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 15, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: The annual event was scrapped because of the pandemic in 2020 and in 2021, but, this Monday, the Biden White House says 30,000 guests are expected to attend that 144-year-old tradition, this year's theme, "EGGucation".

Thanks for your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. Don't forget, you can listen to our podcast. Download INSIDE POLITICS wherever you get your podcast.

Erica Hill picks up our coverage right now.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Good afternoon. I'm Erica Hill in New York. Ana Cabrera is off today. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

In Ukraine today, Russian attacks escalating, as a new offensive is building. More U.S. help, though, we're told, is just hours away. A senior U.S. defense official telling CNN the first delivery of new military aid is due to arrive in the region by this time tomorrow.

Also new today, sources tell CNN Russia is warning to us that its ongoing weapons shipments to Ukraine may lead to -- quote -- "unpredictable consequences." Adding to concerns about Russian retaliation and Moscow's threat to intensify strikes on Kyiv, overnight just outside the capital. Russia says its sea-launched missiles struck a military facility that produced anti-aircraft missile systems and anti-ship missiles.

This morning, Russia said -- or Ukraine, rather, said Russia for the first time used long-range bombers to strike Mariupol. That, of course, is the port city which has been under siege for weeks now, an estimated 100,000 civilians or more still trapped there.

A senior U.S. defense official concedes the city is in a -- quote -- "dire position." We want to begin this hour with a CNN exclusive. Just a short time ago, my colleague Jake Tapper sitting down with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at his presidential office in Kyiv.

Jake joining us now from the capital city there.

Jake, great to see you this afternoon.

So what did you hear from President Zelenskyy this afternoon?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Well, we had a wide-ranging interview on a number of topics.

One of the first things I asked him, though, had to do with something that the CIA director, Bill Burns, warned about yesterday. Burns said that they were keeping an eye on the possibility that Vladimir Putin, in an act born of desperation, might use a tactical or low-yield nuclear weapon against Ukraine.

So that, of course, was a question I had to ask the Ukrainian president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The director of the CIA warned that he's worried Putin might use a tactical nuclear weapon in this fight. Are you worried?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Not only me.

I think, all over the world, all the countries have to be worried, because you know that it can be not real information, but it can be the truth, true, because when they began to speak about one or another battles or involves enemies or nuclear weapons or chemical, some chemical issues, chemical weapons, they should do it -- they could it.

I mean, they can. For them, life of the people is nothing. That's why we should think, not be afraid, I mean, that not be afraid, be ready. But that is not a question for -- to Ukraine, and not only for the Ukraine, for all the -- for all the world I think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So you heard Zelenskyy there speaking in English. It was one of the few answers he gave in English. So he obviously wanted the English-speaking world to hear it. Most of the interview, he spoke in Ukrainian.

And in the -- in that excerpt, he was talking about, A, it should not just be Ukraine that's worried about Putin using a nuclear weapon possibly. It's the whole world that should be. We're not afraid. We're ready.

And also just the idea that when it comes to Vladimir Putin, human life, especially Ukrainian lives, mean so little to him, he would put nothing past him, Erica.

HILL: Which is interesting to hear him say that as well.

I'm sure, Jake, that you also asked him about the sinking of the Moskva, Russia's prized warship there, these denials from Russia that it was Ukrainian missile strike. What did he have to say about that?

TAPPER: It was interesting. He was pretty cagey about that. I mean, he did say that the ship does not exist anymore and the fact that it sank is not a tragedy for the Ukrainians.

In terms of whether it was Ukraine that shot it and sank it or it happened another way, he said that is for history to judge, which I thought was an interesting question, especially given the fact that I believe the Pentagon just confirmed that they think the ship was taken out by two Neptune missiles, Ukrainian missiles.

[13:05:04]

So, not taking credit for it, but also not embarrassed about it and very -- and obviously very pleased that the ship is now at the bottom of the Black Sea.

HILL: Yes, almost reminds you of the statement that we got from the -- from Ukraine when that facility was struck in Belgorod in Russia.

I'm also curious. We have seen so much of Vladimir Zelenskyy over these -- what, we're now day 51 of this war. I'm not convinced that this man has slept at all. I mean, how do you think -- being there with him in person, witnessing how he's holding up physically, how the people around him are, is there a way, based on what you saw and the way he reacted to you, that I think you could describe where you think he may be at, even his mood, for lack of a better word?

TAPPER: You know, I'm kind of a subscriber of the great man or great person theory, that, sometimes ,there are just individuals thrust into a position of power at a given time that rise to the moment. That's just kind of my -- the way I look at history.

And I think he is one of these people. He was very impressive. He came in. He's not a tall guy. But he looked fit. And he looked as well- rested as he could look, I suppose, probably better rested than me -- and not that he is, but he looked I -- and that he showed a variety of moods.

At the very beginning, before we started the interview, we were both joking about how our teenage daughters have little regard for either one of us.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: And -- but then a different parts in the interview, he was diplomatic. He was defiant. He was strong. He was emotional when we talked about civilian casualties.

He was candid. We talked about whether or not he knew how many Ukrainians had been killed, civilians. And he gave a number for the number of Ukrainian military deaths, but not for that of civilian deaths. He was just honest about the fact that they really have no way of knowing at this point.

So, he was pretty impressive. People like us, Erica, we interview politicians for a living. There probably aren't a lot of them that impress us a lot, just because we deal with them all the time. He was -- he was a pretty impressive guy.

HILL: Well, I look forward to seeing more of your interview, Jake. It's been great reporting over the last couple of weeks. Appreciate it. Thank you.

TAPPER: Thanks, Erica.

HILL: And you can see much more of Jake's interview this afternoon coming up on "THE LEAD" right here on CNN 4:00 Eastern.

The full interview runs this Sunday 9:00 a.m. Eastern on "STATE OF THE UNION."

So, on the ground in Ukraine, Ukraine reporting heavy Russian shelling along the front line in the Donetsk region.

CNN's Ben Wedeman is in Southeastern Ukraine joining us now with the very latest.

Ben, what can you tell us?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica.

Well, by all accounts, it appears that the Russians are continuing to amass forces in this region, the Donbass, in preparation for this offensive. Now, yesterday, we were in a town called Severodonetsk, which is the eastern-most town under Ukrainian government control.

And we understand that it basically ,the northern -- in the northern suburbs, there is a concentration, a new concentration, of Russian troops, armor and artillery. Across the region, for instance, we also understand that many of the forces that were in North Central Ukraine around Kyiv are being transferred or have already been transferred to the northern part of the Donbass region.

So, all indications are that preparations are well under way. We have heard Ukrainian officials say that the Russian offensive is a matter of days, not weeks. So it does appear that that's coming. Now, we also understand, as far as the situation in Mariupol is concerned on the Sea of Azov, that city that's been besieged now for more than 40 days, a medieval siege is the only way to describe it, that two units of the Ukrainian defenders in the ever-shrinking area they control within the city have managed to join up.

Now, in the past, recently, the Russians have claimed to have gained control of the port city, but then they report that they have bombed it. So it's not clear how much longer the defenders can hold out. But they have certainly held out under the most hellish of circumstances -- Erica.

HILL: Yes, that's for sure. Ben Wedeman, appreciate it. Thank you. We are also following today warning from the -- from Russia to the

United States, the Kremlin today formally protesting the weapons President Biden has been sending Ukraine.

Joining me now, retired U.S. Army Major Mike Lyons and CNN national security analyst Shawn Turner, who is also a former director of communication for U.S. national intelligence.

It's great to have both of you with us, as always.

[13:10:00]

Shawn, I'm curious. What is your read here on this warning from Russia to the U.S., warning about the potential consequences? And how, if at all, do you think the U.S. should respond?

SHAWN TURNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, thanks for having me, Erica.

This warning really got my attention. Look I think that, for the United States, we have done a good job of making sure that, when it comes to the perception of escalating or showing any aggression as it relates to this conflict, the United States has done a good job of sort of staying out of that space.

But, look, these diplomatic notes, they're typically missives that have subtleties and overt warnings, and the subtleties are often more important. So what's happening behind the scenes right now is, I guarantee that there are foreign policy officials at the State Department and others throughout the U.S. government who are looking at this note, and they're looking at those words, unpredictable consequences.

And they're going over the range of possibilities with regard to what those words could mean and to be really clear as they think about those consequences. It could be anything from those were empty words that mean absolutely nothing, all the way up to the idea that Putin might be sending a shot across the bow with regard to his future intent.

And then, Erica, the last thing I will say about this is that, as it relates it to the specific words here, the United States is going to look at this, and we're going to go back to Russia, and we're going to be very clear with Russia that, if these words are designed to make a case for the United States being so aggressive as to be drawn into this war, that that is not what the United States intends to do, that we're going to continue to support and help Ukraine in any way we can.

HILL: So there's one way of looking at it, right, and reading into each of those words, as you point out, Shawn.

Major Lyons, I'm curious, does this warning, does this also tell you something about how Russia is looking at this conflict, at this invasion that it started, and the weapons and the help that the U.S. is sending? Are those being seen as effective and concerning?

MAJ. MIKE LYONS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: I think so, Erica.

I think the fact that it has been effective. The weapons and the supplies have poured in from the West. You look at this latest list of things we're going to provide, they're real difference-makers, the body armor, the small-arms ammunition, the Javelins, the Switchblades.

The drone technology that -- and the intel that it provides is invaluable to Ukraine. So, some of these unthinkable consequences, though, perhaps what Russia hasn't done is attack those supply convoys as they have crossed that border. That's something that has me most concerned, especially as you look at some of the things we're going to bring in, artillery pieces, APCs, armored personnel carriers.

How does that cross that border? There's no hiding that. Russia could see that from their technology, and likely attack that very quickly in very, very far western Ukraine. So perhaps that's what he does there.

The issue, again, getting the lift capability to get that to Poland and our allies there and then getting it across the border into the Ukraine's hands, because they have been tremendous with it.

HILL: Shawn, as we look at I guess what are these potential consequences, right, in this warning from Russia, President Zelenskyy, as you just heard, telling Jake that he does believe that the world really needs to be prepared for Putin to use some sort of nuclear weapons.

CIA Director Bill Burns warning that Putin may resort to tactical nuclear weapons or low-yield nuclear weapons. And there's not enough practical evidence right now to believe this, but how is that -- Shawn, how do officials gauge that threat?

TURNER: Yes.

I think that this is one of those cases in which gauging the threat is less important than the need to send a message. Look, sometimes, we talk about tactical nukes, we talk about low-yield nukes, as you just mentioned, Erica. The United States needs to send a really clear message that, no matter how we describe the nuclear weapon, on the battlefield in Ukraine, there's absolutely no place for nuclear weapons.

And so I think that, when we look at those words unpredictable consequences, and we look at what intelligence tells us about how frustrated Putin is, I mean, just to be really clear, I mean, he is running out of patience here.

I think that we look at simply the threat of the use of any type of nuclear weapon, and that we're very clear that, whether it's a tactical nuke or a low-yield nuke or any other type of nuclear weapon, that not only will the United States respond decisively, but the international community will respond decisively.

And I think this is a message that we need to start sending more clearly and more directly, because Putin is back -- his back is against the wall. And we just -- we simply don't know what he's going to do next.

HILL: It will be interesting to see if that message is in fact amplified, if it does become louder.

Before I let you both go, in terms of Putin being backed against a wall, we know he does not like to be put in a corner. There are a lot of concerns about what that means for his impulses and the next action he could take. He also doesn't like to be humiliated.

So when we look at what happened with the ship, with the Moskva, do you think this -- is this more concerning? Is this more of an issue, Major Lyons, for Russia when it comes to morale and reputation, if you will, or is it more about Russia's strategy in this invasion?

[13:15:08]

LYONS: No, it's more morale.

The propaganda use from Ukraine's side is tremendous. And he's got messaging problems, Putin does, as it faces off to Russia with this. I think it's going to have little impact. Frankly, he still has the Baltic fleet there. He still has -- or the Black Sea Fleet. He still has a tremendous amount of military and naval capability there.

It will degrade him somewhat. But the embarrassment of losing that ship is tremendous. And he has to watch out for what message gets sent to Russia, as opposed to what happens in the theater.

HILL: Major Mike Lyons, Shawn Turner, always great to have you with us. Appreciate your expertise. Thank you.

TURNER: Thank you.

HILL: It is the world's largest mega-yacht, which, let's be honest, is really saying something. This one comes complete with an indoor pool, not one, but two helipads. And Germany just seized it from a Russian oligarch's family.

Up next, we have an update on the worldwide effort to hit Putin's powerful friends where it hurts.

Plus, the text messages from two Trump allies in Congress which reveal how they initially supported efforts to overturn the election before ultimately warning the White House against it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:37]

HILL: It is believed to be the world's biggest yacht. And it's the latest to be swept up in the global dragnet targeting the richest of Russian oligarchs.

German authorities in Hamburg just seized the Dilbar. Now, this ship estimated to be worth upwards of $700 million. The super yacht belongs to the sister of a sanctioned Putin ally, according to the Germans. The boat itself, it weighs in at nearly 16,000 tons and features not one, but two helipads, and has one of the largest indoor yacht pools ever made.

And get this, the operating costs alone, roughly $60 million per year.

For more on this, let's bring in CNN Matt Egan.

So, Matt, one of the things that I know I have certainly learned over the last several weeks is that Russian oligarchs really seem to love their mega-yachts.

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: That's right, Erica.

I love how some of these mega-yachts have multiple helipads. Like, they couldn't be caught dead on a boat that just had one helipad.

But let me introduce you to...

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: What if one is in use and another friend stops by?

EGAN: Exactly. That's what I was thinking.

Let me give you a few other examples of some of these super yachts that have been seized. Check out the Crescent. It is a 400-foot-long yacht that was recently seized by Spanish authorities, estimated to be worth $600 million. And it's been detained by authorities to determine whether or not it's owned by a sanctioned individual.

Then there's my personal favorite, Sailing Yacht A. It was seized by Italian authorities. And it could be linked to Andrey Melnichenko, a fertilizer and cold billionaire who was sanctioned by the E.U. It's worth nearly $600 million. And it is taller than the Statue of Liberty, which is pretty incredible. And I guess it shows it wasn't exactly designed to stay under the radar, Erica.

HILL: No, I think you're correct on that one.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: It's not just luxury boats, though. In terms of assets, what else has been seized?

EGAN: Well, Erica, I'm not sure what you're in the market for, but besides yachts, we have got a whole bunch of private jets and villas and other assets that have been seized.

Check out this real estate compound seized by Italian authorities in Sardinia. It's dubbed Rocky Ram, and it's worth about $114 million. The massive property is linked to Nikita Mazepin, a former Formula One driver, and his oligarch father, Dmitry, who has been described by E.U. authorities as part of the inner circle of Vladimir Putin.

Various European authorities have also seized other assets that have been linked to Russian oligarchs. Belgium has frozen $3 billion in Russian assets from 877 individuals. Another $6 billion has been frozen by Switzerland, which, after the war started, broke from its traditional neutrality to conform with E.U. sanctions.

HILL: And I know you were joking when you said, I don't know what you're in the market for.

EGAN: Yes.

HILL: The place in Sardinia looks lovely.

In all seriousness, though, what happens to this real estate, these boats, these planes? Is it just held on to the government's for the time being? Is there a chance it could be returned? Or does it ultimately get sold?

EGAN: Well, that's the tricky part, especially when you think about the yachts, because, once the yachts gets seized, it's really up to the government to keep them in good condition. Otherwise, they're going to lose value.

And, as you mentioned in the intro, upkeep for some of these yachts can be in the tens of millions of dollars a year, in part because they're constantly exposed to the elements. That includes getting insurance coverage and hiring workers to maintain the ships and their various indoor pools and helipads.

Now, as far as whether the oligarchs are ever going to get them back, it's easy to see how some of this could end up tied up in court battles that could last years, potentially. But some in Congress are trying to take steps to ensure that these temporarily seized assets get permanently reallocated.

There's a bipartisan bill in Congress. It's called Yachts For Ukraine. And it would allow the government to sell the assets that has been seized and put the proceeds towards permanently trying to rebuild Ukraine.

HILL: We will all be watching to see what happens with those efforts.

Matt Egan, appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

EGAN: Thanks.

HILL: Well, the goal of all of these unprecedented sanctions which target Putin's allies is really for that economic pain and perhaps their frustration to trickle all the way up to the Russian leader himself to further back him into a corner of it, although the question is, how long would that take? What would it even look like?

[13:25:13]

Here to discuss, a professor of political science at Columbia University, Timothy Frye, who's also the author of "Weak Strongman: The Limits of Power in Putin's Russia."

It's good to have you with us today. Putin's daughters also facing sanctions. How and when will we know if

these efforts are having any real impact on Putin and his decision- making?

TIMOTHY FRYE, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well, I think they're -- you can say they're having an impact already.

A key role for the sanctions was to degrade Russia's military capacity. And we see the largest tank factory in the country has been considerably slowed because they can't get the microchips they need to produce the tanks that are so important to the war effort.

So in degrading Russia's military capacity, that's an important agenda. The Russian oligarchs who are feeling tremendous pain from these sanctions, they didn't sign up to be the face of an international pariah state. And I'm sure they're not very happy about the start of the war.

But given where they are, they're very reluctant to support any efforts to criticize Putin, for fear that they will be even worse off and be thrown in jail and lose their assets, thanks to the Russian government.

So I think there's a lot of under-the-radar opposition to the war among Russian economic elites, but it's just very difficult to express that.

HILL: How much of that do you think is getting through? How much of that is making its way up to the top, to Putin? Because we have been talking more and more about, is he feeling cornered, is he feeling humiliated by what he is seeing or not seeing in terms of this invasion, the Moskva the latest example of that.

FRYE: I mean, the biggest frustrations have come on the battlefield, where I'm sure they expected President Zelenskyy to fold, for the army of Ukraine not to fight back.

I'm sure he's frustrated by the Western response, which has been much more vigorous than I think anybody expected. Domestically, I bet he's disappointed, because there's been nothing like the surge of enthusiasm that happened after the annexation of Crimea.

I tend to categorize support for the war effort in Russia at the moment as fairly broad, but also shallow, in that this is not the most important issue for most Russians, either the elites or masses. And it's also quite conditional. As the economy deteriorates, and should the losses on the battlefield increased dramatically, I do think we will see much more expressions of opposition to the war effort.

HILL: Which is interesting, because we know how hard Putin and the Russian government have tried to crack down on that from the very beginning.

You note that the type of autocracy that we see in Russia really faces two main threats, one being a coup, and the other one being some sort of public revolt. Are you seeing any evidence since this invasion began that the chances of either of these have increased? Do you see either one of those playing out?

FRYE: Well, the odds before this were very low. Putin's main claim to history was to have brought stability to Russia. And the invasion of Ukraine has really thrown that to the wind.

At the moment, we haven't seen elites defecting in a large enough scale. We haven't seen mass mobilization on a large enough scale to really threaten Putin. But we're still only six weeks into this war. The Kremlin retains control of the narrative within the country.

But, over time, I think that's going to be much more difficult to retain.

HILL: Professor Timothy Frye, appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Thank you.

FRYE: Thank you very much.

HILL: Just ahead here: a CNN exclusive, our teams just reviewing text messages which reveal how far some top Republicans pushed the White House to keep fighting the 2020 election results.

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