Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Zelenskyy To CNN: World Should Prepare For Putin To Use Nukes; Russia Strikes Outskirts Of Kyiv After Key Russian Warship Sunk; Texts: GOP Lawmakers Encouraged, Then Soured On Overturning Election. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 15, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:01]

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, FORMER SPOKESMAN, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE: But I do think that, give the Ukrainians what they've been asking for, more attack helicopters, more of those switchblade or kamikaze drones.

But also allow I think neighboring countries such as Poland or Slovakia or others to provide things like tanks and also jet fighters and then the United States and other Western countries can back fill those kind of donations, if you will, of arms, because otherwise, I think what you're going to be seeing happening is Ukraine turning away from the United States from European countries and relying more on neighboring countries to assist them in military assistance. That's the only path I see they have going.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: I mean, obviously, it gets complicated when you start involving NATO, but no one knows that better than you.

Michael Bociurkiw, thank you very much for telling us what you're seeing with your own eyes on the ground. We'll check back with you. Stay safe.

(MUSIC)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of the hour here on CNN NEWSROOOM. Thank you for staying with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: I'm Alisyn Camerota.

A grim warning today from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. He spoke to CNN's Jake Tapper in an exclusive interview from Kyiv and said the world should be prepared for Vladimir Putin to launch a chemical or even nuclear attack.

Today, Russia unleashed a new wave of new strikes across Ukraine after seeing the crown jewel of its Black Sea fleet sink to the bottom. That flagship is now at the bottom of the sea and the U.S. now believes it was hit by two Ukrainian missiles in a major military victory in Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: Russia appears to be retaliating for that attack. Russian forces hit a military facility on the outskirts of Kyiv overnight. And there have been reports of heavy shelling in the Donetsk region, and multiple strikes against the southern city of Mykolaiv. At least two people were killed in front of a church. Ukraine claims a cluster bomb in the city killed five people and Russian forces now appear on the verge of a new offensive.

But help is on the way. The first U.S. flight of new military weapons is expected to arrive in the region in the next 24 hours.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's begin our coverage this hour in the capital city of Kyiv, and that's where Jake Tapper joins us now.

So, Jake, you just had this exclusive sit-down with President Zelenskyy. We have been playing his warning to the world. Tell us what she told you.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, there's a lot he had to say, including, of course, the information that I passed onto him to the CIA Director Bill Burns. Bill Burns saying that they are monitoring whether or not Putin born from desperation might use a tactical or low yield nuclear weapon against Ukraine. It seems like a pressing issue and possibility.

So, I asked President Zelenskyy if that was something he was concerned about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: The director of the CIA warned that he's worried Putin might use a tactical nuclear weapon in this fight. Are you worried?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Not only me, I think. All of the world, all the countries have to be worried, because you know that you can't be not real information, but it can be the truth, because when they begin to speak about one or another battles or involved enemies or nuclear weapons or some chemical issues, chemical weapons, they should do it -- they could do it. I mean, they can. For them, life of the people -- nothing, that's we should I think not be afraid. I mean, not be afraid, be ready. But that is the question for -- to Ukraine, and not only for the Ukraine, for all the world, I think so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: So, Alisyn and Victor, that was one of the few answers that President Zelenskyy gave in English, most of his answers were in Ukrainian, and obviously, translated for me and will be translated for the viewer as well.

But if you take in sum what he said, yes we're worried but we're the only ones that should be worried. The whole world should be worried. Two, we're not afraid. We're prepared. And, three, a general message, it wouldn't surprise him because Putin has shown such a glib and casual disregard for human life. Why wouldn't he use nuclear weapons. There's nothing that would hold him back.

So, that was Zelenskyy's response to that idea put out there yesterday by the CIA director.

BLACKWELL: Jake, did the president say anything about this Russian warship, the Moskva, that is now at the bottom of the sea. Did he say anything about that?

TAPPER: He did. Of course, I asked him about it.

[15:05:01]

This, of course, is the infamous Russian warship from the very beginning of this war when Ukrainians soldiers on Snake Island were told to surrender by the commanders and they responded in Ukrainian, Russian warship go F yourself. And, of course, now, we see the Moskva is in effect F at the bottom of the Black Sea.

So, I asked him about it because specifically, I wanted to know if he would take credit for it, if the Ukrainians were on the record, if he as president would acknowledge that it was Ukrainian Neptune land to sea missiles responsible for taking out the ship.

And he wouldn't say that. He said we know the ship is gone. The fact that it sunk is not a tragedy for us and better for us the less powerful they are. In terms of what happened, he said, time will tell. So, he was kind of -- he was kind of cagey about that.

CAMEROTA: So, Jake, we know the latest tranche of U.S. military aid to Ukraine is on its way. It's supposed to arrive in the next 24 hours. Did you talk to President Zelenskyy about the plan for what they're going to do to fight in the east?

TAPPER: Yeah. I mean, he said that some of Ukraine's best fighters are already there preparing. He said they anticipate a big fight of more than one battle and in general his message is they need more offensive weapons. The sooner the better, the quicker they get here. He did say the fight will influence the whole course of the war. So, he does see it as a rather significant inflection point coming up.

BLACKWELL: Jake, we'll remember that President Zelenskyy while touring Bucha said that what's happening in his country is genocide. President Biden now agrees that it's genocide. The French President Emmanuel Macron said that people should be careful about using that term.

Was there some response from President Zelenskyy to that?

TAPPER: This was one of the questions I asked him that impressed me because his answer was so diplomatic and, frankly, a lot more diplomatic than I think mine would have been had I been in that situation. He obviously agrees with President Biden that this is a genocide. He put out a tweet that day praising President Biden for using the word genocide even though Biden later said he was offering his opinion. It was not a legal ruling by the State Department.

But instead of criticizing President Macron for acting as though the use of this word was so offensive in the war crimes and slaughter of innocence that we're seeing here with our eyes on the ground in Ukraine, he just said he disagreed, and that's one of the many moments in this interview where President Zelenskyy, you could really see him rising to this moment. You know, there are people that are put into certain positions of leadership whether by fate or the blessings of God or just happenstance. He happens to be this man for this time, this person for this time and he, in the course of this interview, was funny, was defiant, was intellectual, was emotional and in this case, very diplomatic.

BLACKWELL: Sounds like fascinating conversation. Jake Tapper, thank you. Looking forward to seeing more of it, and there will be more of Jake's exclusive interview with President Zelenskyy at the top of the hour on "THE LEAD", and the full interview airs this Sunday at 9:00 a.m. on "STATE OF THE UNION" right here on CNN.

CAMEROTA: OK. Let's got now to CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman in Kramatorsk, Ukraine.

So, Ben, as we were talk about earlier, Ukrainian officials have reported heavy shelling near you in the Donbas region which you have reported also, and we're also learning more about these local reports that now more than 900 civilian bodies had been discovered in the Kyiv region since the Russian troops retreated and -- I mean, as you have warned us, that's a very rough estimate and, of course, there could be more.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. There definitely can be more. I mean, let's think of Mariupol where a city that's been under siege for 40 days, a medieval siege. And we heard various figures coming from the mayor who said more than 5,000 people have been killed. Zelenskyy, the president, saying more than 10,000 have been killed.

And I said, yesterday, we went into a hospital morgue on the city, the easternmost city in the Ukraine, and I spoke to the hospital director. He said 90 percent of his staff have left. They moved to other parts -- safer parts of the country. They don't have enough people to manage the morgue itself.

So, essentially, there are dead bodies strewn all over the morgue.

[15:10:03]

Some of them covered, some of them not, some in body bags, some wrapped in sheets and blankets. So, this -- in this war, I think it will be a long time before we have a general idea about the number of dead. And certainly, if you look at the progression of figures that have been issued by the Ukrainians, of course, there are always tentative but I think many people will expect the final toll to be much, much higher, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Ben, it's just such a ghastly scene that you've been able to capture with your cameras for us. It's really valuable to have you there. Thank you.

So, a senior defense official said the first flight of supplies from latest round of U.S. aid is expected to arrive in Ukraine within the next 24 hours. That official says you Ukrainians will pick up the shipment at the border and move into the country.

BLACKWELL: Let's discuss now with retired Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson.

General, welcome back.

Let's start with the air bridge that's been set up to expedite the deliveries to Ukraine. Walk us through how that works and, of course, when they need these weapons now, it's so important.

BRIG. GEN. STEVE ANDERSON, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, one of the reasons that we're winning this war, the Ukrainians are winning this war is logistics. And this is a great opportunity for us to demonstrate our power as a national power, our ability to project military power of long distances.

So, what's going to happen is TransCom, the United States Transportation Command, is going to establish an air bridge. Air bridge that will leave from ports on the east coast, in Charleston and Dover Air Force Base and fly about 4,000 miles into Warsaw and Poland in that area. They've got incredible assets in order to be able to do that, particularly the C5 aircraft that can take two tanks if needed. So, it's got huge capability, huge capacity.

We also have C-17s, 223 C-17s that can possibly be used. The problem with the C-17 is they require aerial refueling. So, they'd have to get refueled in the middle. There's no reason we couldn't use the aircraft as well.

The other thing we need to consider is sea lift. It's potentially an opportunity to give us some capabilities. We can sail from ports on the east coast all the way to Gdansk, in Poland, in about four and a half days. And, of course, the sea ship, faster sealift, can carry an awful lot of equipment.

Bear in mind, the example in 1991 in which we move 10,000 fast surface sealifts, carrying the 24th Infantry Division, all the way into the Persian Gulf in 10 days.

So, we can do that. We have incredible capability to get to Poland. What happens when we get to Poland? We'll take assets here in these airfields, and also from the port of Gdansk, if needed, and we're going to push them into Lviv, and we'll establish logistic basis in this area.

The Ukrainians are no doubt going to use Dnipro as a major logistics hub. And what they're going to do is utilize their road network, which is extensive, to get as much as they can down to Dnipro, as well as their 15,000 miles of uninterrupted trains, thus far have not been interdicted by the Russians at all.

I'd also like to point out we have the capability to use river barges. It's 300 miles from Kyiv. We can't forget the Ukrainians captured 150 tanks in the vicinity of Kyiv. So, wouldn't it be nice to recommission those tanks and put them to use down here in Dnipro. So, this is going to be the major logistics staging area and they're going to use that to push into Eastern Ukraine for the upcoming battle that's going to take place in the Donbas.

CAMEROTA: General, it's really fascinating to see all the logistical threats there that you've laid out, but what if the Russians do try to hit those supply chains? I mean, it looks like it's not going be that easy to get from Kyiv to Dnipro there. And why aren't the Russians interdicting those supply lines?

ANDERSON: Well, that's a very good question, but it's all about redundancy, OK? They've got multiple avenues of approach. They can use thousands of miles of roads. They have the train assets, like you said. They have the ability to use river barges.

If you have redundant systems, even if they knock you out in one particular place, you take another route, and that's certainly what they're going to do. But I am surprised that the Russians haven't tried to attack the logistic bases more.

Now, we did see the attack in Kramatorsk last week. It killed 59 civilians and was terrible. But that was a logistic hub.

We can probably expect to see more of this. But the Ukrainian will to fight and the incredible logistics flexibility and they have demonstrated thus far I think is going to carry the day and they're going to be able to get what they need to eastern Ukraine for the upcoming fight.

[15:15:02]

BLACKWELL: General, let me ask you about this will to fight. I read something today about Mariupol, if you could pull that up, that we know that the reports that come out of that city have been awful for weeks. But they are now two generals who say that their forces, their units have combined, two Ukrainian units have combined. It sounds like progress. What's the significance of that?

ANDERSON: Well, I mean, I think what they are trying to do, the Russians will try to establish a logistics base down here. We know they will be up here in Belgorod, appear logistics hub as well. They want to push -- it's been talked about pushing down here into this town of Kramatorsk.

This is the key town because it affords access into Luhansk, Donetsk, and, of course, out here into Dnipro area. But down in Mariupol they will try to utilize the log bases and perhaps push up here.

I don't think that's a good game plan for the Russians. I think they will try to push up here where they have secure lines, they have interior supply lines, they have a population that support them, Russian separatists and they're going to be able to be much logistically efficient by pushing up to Donetsk. It's only 70 miles of Kramatorsk this way. I think that's the way that they're going to go.

BLACKWELL: All right. Retired Brigadier Steve Anderson walking us through a lot in those few minutes -- thank you, General.

ANDERSON: Thank you. CAMEROTA: OK. So, CNN obtains text messages between two Republican

lawmakers and Trump's former chief of staff Mark Meadows showing how they lobbied the White House to overturn the election before eventually souring on that idea. We've got explosive reporting for you, next.

BLACKWELL: And former Trump White House adviser Stephen Miller testified for eight hours yesterday about January 6th. We have some details for you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:23]

CAMEROTA: Exclusive new CNN reporting shows how two Trump allies in Congress went from encouraging White House efforts to overturn the 2020 election to warning about the consequences.

BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles has this CNN exclusive.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Mike Lee of Utah and Congressman Chip Roy of Texas, two of former President Donald Trump's most loyal defenders in Congress, but in dozens of private text to Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows, a picture emerges of how both went from aiding the effort to challenge the election results to ultimately warning against it.

The text obtained by CNN show how they were trying to help initially but by the end, raised concerns to Trump's top deputy about his campaign's effort to stand in the way of the certification of the 2020 election. We're driving a stake in the heart of the federal republic, Roy warned Meadows in a text message on January 1st that is in possession of the January 6 Select Committee.

His stark warning came after weeks of begging Meadows for hard evidence of election fraud and concerns of the lack of specific evidence was a real problem for the Trump legal team. We must urge the president to tone down the rhetoric, he wrote to Meadows on November 9th.

Roy did believe that there were problems with the election. In early December, he went to the House floor imploring his colleagues to look into the thin examples of fraud.

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): The American people are raising legitimate question about our elections and this body is missing in action and doing nothing.

NOBLES: Like Roy, Senator Mike Lee started out hopeful for a path to challenge the election results. In early November, he touted the work of conservative lawyer Sidney Powell, encouraging Meadows to get her an audience with the president, calling her a, quote, straight shooter. But less than two weeks later, Powell appeared with Rudy Giuliani in an infamous press conference where the duo made wild, baseless claims about the election.

SIDNEY POWELL, ATTORNEY WHO CHALLENGED 2020 ELECTION RESULTS: President Trump won by a landslide. We are going to prove it.

NOBLES: Lee then changed his tune, calling Powell a liability, and turning his focus to touting Attorney John Eastman. Lee pushed a plan to convince state legislatures to offer up a set of alternate electors. When that plan fizzled, he decided he was not on board. He said I think we're past the point that we can expect anyone to do it without some direction and a strong evidentiary argument.

Both Lee and Roy ultimately chose not to join other Republicans to vote against certifying the election.

SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Our job is to open and then count. Open, then count. That's it. That's all there is.

NOBLES: Privately, they were more emphatic about the fool's errand Trump's team was on.

The president should call every one off. It's the only path, Roy texted Meadows on December 31st.

While Lee argued the effort was on dangerous constitutional ground. Three days before January 6, he warned: I know only this will end badly for the president unless we have the Constitution on our side. They did not but the Trump team and a group of loyal Republicans went ahead with their plan any way, as it became clear there effort would not be successful, hundreds of Trump supporters stormed the capitol in protests.

As the violence was raging, Roy texted Meadows, fix this now.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The gentleman from Texas.

NOBLES: He then went to the House floor and placed the blame squarely at President Trump's feet.

ROY: The president should never have spun up certain Americans to believe something that simply cannot be.

(END VIDOTAPE)

[15:25:03]

NOBLES: And we reached out to both the offices of Chip Roy and Mike Lee. Congressman Roy's office telling me said that they believe the texts speak for themselves. As for Senator Lee, his office telling us he was very transparent during this period of time and there's nothing that contradicts his public statements when you compare them to what he was texting Mark Meadows at that time -- Victor and Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: Those texts do speak loudly. It's really interesting to see how concerned and worried they were.

OK. So, onto Stephen Miller. So, he's, of course, the former White House adviser to President Trump and he testified at the House Select Committee, we're hearing, for many hours.

So, do we know what he told them?

NOBLES: Well, Stephen Miller plays an interesting role in all this, Alisyn. He, of course, one of the closest and most loyal advisers to President Trump, and he also played a role in crafting that speech that Trump delivered on January 6. We're told that he was with the committee for roughly eight hours.

At times the conversations got a little chippy, meaning that he wasn't being that cooperative and it got a little confrontational at times. But still, it's significant he went into the room and answered for a long period of time. And we're starting to see a trend where many of the allies that were close to President Trump who were ultimately resisting the committee's efforts to get them to come and cooperate are now relenting and participating on some level in this investigation. It shows, like these texts show us, that the committee is compiling a lot of information as they look forward to issuing a final report sometime in the fall.

CAMEROTA: OK. Ryan Nobles, thank you for the reporting.

NOBLES: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Russia has sent a formal protest to the U.S. about its weapon shipment to Ukraine. A Biden administration official tells CNN that it shows the Russians are hurting.

And just in to CNN, President Zelenskyy asked President Biden to name Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. We have more on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)