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Heavy Fighting in Eastern Ukraine as Russian Assault Begins; Biden Holds Situation Room Call With Allies on War in Ukraine; U.N. to Debate Proposal That Would Require Justification For Using Security Council Veto. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 19, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN NEWSROOM: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

Happening this morning, President Biden holding a video call with allies in the situation room as the White House considers new sanctions on Moscow.

Now, it's all happening as the U.S. says Ukraine is under a campaign of terror by Russia. Russian forces are launching a new large scale offensive in the eastern part of the country, calling it phase two of its special military operation.

Well, this morning, in the besieged port city of Mariupol, reports of intense shelling at a steel factory, video showing plumes of smoke rising from the plant. Ukraine says dozens of families have been sheltering at that factory now for weeks and those inside say conditions are deteriorating. Food and water now is limited.

CNN Correspondent Matt Rivers is reporting from Lviv, from Western Ukraine, and CNN Senior Correspondent Ed Lavandera is in the capital city of Kyiv.

Matt, first to you. President Zelenskyy says Russian forces have now started the battle for Donbas in Eastern Ukraine. What are we seeing unfold in the country this morning?

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Safe to say that we have now officially seen the beginning of what we have been waiting for, for days if not weeks now, which is this ramped up, intensified Russian offensive designed to capture the Donbas region in the eastern part of the country. We heard yesterday afternoon from, first, regional military officials in places like Donetsk and Luhansk saying that they believe that this offensive had begun and it was late last night in his evening address that President Zelenskyy also said the same thing, stepped up tanks, artillery, lots more ground troops. You're talking about tens of thousands of Russian troops that have been repositioned into the eastern part of the country, and they now are trying to move south and east to capture the Donbas region.

We know that certain towns in the area, Ukrainian towns, have fallen like Kreminna, for example, to Russian forces, with Ukrainian officials saying that they have what they are calling it a tactical retreat in that area.

But we also know that frontlines across the region, you know, the Ukrainians are putting up a fight. What they are seeing, according to Ukrainian officials is a change in tactics on the part of the Russians because of what they learned from what they didn't do correctly in the northern part of Ukraine during their failed attempt to capture Kyiv.

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PAVLO KYRYLENKO, HEAD OF DONETSK REGION MILITARY ADMINISTRATION: The enemy is changing tactics and that is confirmed. And the reason for that is that it has suffered losses, losses in terms of heavy artillery, in terms of its with weapons and also personnel, have forced to be more economical in terms of how they use their force and they have to focus on certain areas.

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RIVERS: What we know though is that this is not going to be a quick campaign here. We're talking about battles that will go on for weeks and could be bloodier than anything we've seen so far.

GOLODRYGA: The true battle for the country is yet to unfold. Matt, thank you.

Well, Ed, I want to get to you there in Kyiv, because Ukrainian officials say that Russian forces are shelling the Asovstal steel factory in that besieged port city of Mariupol. We've seen images of mothers there with their children desperate to get out. What more are we learning?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it seems like with every hour that passes by and the news that emerges from Mariupol, you just have to wonder how much more can the civilians and Ukrainian fighters inside that city withstand, given that they've held on to that city for more than a month and a half, Bianna. But the news continues to get more grim. We believe that there could be as many as about a thousand people inside that steel factory, barricading themselves from the incessant shelling that continues there toward them.

And this is a city that has been besieged for weeks. What is making matters even more complicated today is that there are no agreed upon humanitarian corridors that might give civilians an opportunity to escape from that city. We are told by Ukrainian officials that no humanitarian corridors do exist, that even the paths that could be used are being shelled and attacked as well, so far too dangerous for civilians to be able to escape from that area as well.

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The Russian military also said several hours ago that they had offered an opportunity for those forces inside the factory to surrender. The deadline for that came and went to several hours ago. No indication that the forces inside the factory have accepted the surrender. There was a similar offer made on Sunday that was ignored by the Ukrainian forces inside Mariupol. So, I can't imagine that that would change today. They have been saying for weeks that they would fight until the very end. Bianna?

GOLODRYGA: And keep in mind, Ed, that President Zelenskyy himself said that they don't have an accurate account for how many civilians remain in that city, how many have been killed thus far. This is all still yet to be investigated and determined, but we know that number is unfortunately going to be very high.

Ed Lavandera, thank you.

Well, Ukraine's railways are critical lifelines running across the country, supplying troops and evacuating civilians.

I'm joined now by the head of the Ukrainian Railways, Alexander Kamyshin. Alexander, thank you somuch for joining us.

I just recently, in the last hour, spoke with the mayor of Mykolaiv, who is warning his citizens to leave the country. We're hearing that from mayors across the country there now, so many in that country rely on those railways. How safe are they today?

ALEXANDER KAMYSHIN, HEAD OF UKRAINIAN RAILWAYS: Hi, Bianna. Nice to hear you, thanks for inviting me. Indeed, it's not safe across the whole Ukraine. Yesterday, we got shelled in Lviv and we keep running, even though they shell our stations across the whole country.

Two days before, on Sunday, I've been Kramatorsk across and other cities deep east. And what I would say, the evacuation (ph) programs currently going down on that area. We got a fraction of what we've got at the peak days (ph). For instance, yesterday, we got 195 people from (INAUDIBLE) comparing to 10,000 we got in the peak from that area.

And indeed, those people who we have evacuated are hard to move, elderly and people from hospitals, those people who are less mobile. That's why it's really important for us to be available for evacuation until the last moment.

Indeed, all people around expect (INAUDIBLE). That's why we are doing our best to evacuate those people who are still (INAUDIBLE) to evacuate.

GOLODRYGA: Do you get a sense that Russians are targeting these railways to attack the Ukrainian troops who also utilize them or civilians? Obviously, we cannot get those images out of those civilians that were killed in Chernihiv two weeks ago, 50 civilians there including children.

KAMYSHIN: Bianna, they target schools, kindergarten, theatres and civilian buildings. That's why you can't save the target railway stations in some specific way. Definitely, when they shell tracks, we understand that they target them. But we learned how to repair them and go run on the evacuation program.

GOLODRYGA: Part of what makes Ukrainians and your bravery throughout this terrible war so inspiring is that what you just said, you keep rebuilding, you keep fighting. How are you managing to rebuild these train stations, including that in Chernihiv, in the midst of what's now going to be an even greater, larger scale phase two part of the war?

KAMYSHIN: Bianna, it's really nice piece, Chernihiv, because once military troops military troops made Russians leave the city, we took one week to restore the infrastructure and sent the first train to Chernihiv. I can say that, first, with the east of the train shows that we got 100 percent of occupancy. And indeed, it was really important to restore the railway connectivity to the city because that's passenger traffic, that's humanitarian aid and that's cargo. We should keep running the economy as well. That's why it was really important to bring Chernihiv back to railways.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, a really important moment of symbolism there to say that you are still operating, right, and these trains are still running.

My last question to you is, what are you telling citizens there now who understandably are afraid to flee in the midst of danger because they're afraid that they will be killed and attacked as they step on board a train?

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KAMYSHIN: Bianna, meanwhile, railway stations and railway trains remain the safest place in this country because people know that they shell again, civilian buildings, theaters, schools and so on. That's why they do not shell stations more than other buildings. And we introduced all of the security measures to make this transportation safe.

GOLODRYGA: Well, you're absolutely right. They bombed the building in Mariupol where it was explicitly clear that there were children. It was written there, deti, children, and Russians bombed them nonetheless.

Alexander Kamyshin, thank you for joining us. We appreciate it, stay safe.

KAMYSHIN: Thanks, Bianna. Bye.

GOLODRYGA: Well, we'll also be joined now by our colleague, Jim Sciutto, in this hour on the ground there in Lviv. Jim, good to see you.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Good to see you as well. We are here as the war enters the second phase, perhaps even a bloodier one.

Coming up, I'm going to speak to the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Linda Thomas-Greenfield, this as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy continues to pressure the U.N. in particular to check Russia's power. We're going to speak to her about the realities of what's possible at the U.N. given Russia has a veto, but also what she believes must be done.

GOLODRYGA: Plus, we speak with an American missionary who was captured by Russians when they took over his city of Melitopol. Why they let him return home and what his family faced as they then fled Ukraine.

And here in the U.S., a major shift in mask rules. Which companies are making changes? Still ahead.

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GOLODRYGA: Right now, President Biden is speaking with allies and partners as the U.S. considers additional ways to support Ukraine while holding Russia accountable. That call taking place inside the situation room at the White House.

CNN White House Correspondent John Harwood joins me now from the north lawn. So, John, what, if any, are the biggest sticking points thus far on this call with allies?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it began a few minutes ago. We'll get a readout later, Bianna, but what this call is about is about shifting to this new phase of the conflict in Ukraine. After the initial weeks, the Ukrainian forces, of course, turned back the Russians in their attempt to capture Kyiv, for example. They're now settling in for a slugfest in the Donbas.

And the United States, in recent days, has shifted heavier weapons, transferred heavier weapons, helicopters, to the Ukrainians. So, one of the calls with these heads of state including, E.U., NATO leaders, Germany, France, Italy, the United Kingdom, as well as Poland, Romania, Japan, they're going to try to figure out how they can get more weaponry in the hands of the Ukrainians to defend themselves but also to try to strengthen the punishment that allies are exerting on Russia through sanctions, toughening up those sanctions. They've had an effect on the Russian economy. Obviously, they've not deterred the Russian attack on Ukraine.

So, the ideas to crank them up further, perhaps getting into the oil and gas sector for where Europe has been reluctant to act because they're so dependent on Russian oil and gas. But the winter is passing and so it might be a more amenable time to pick up some of those sanctions and increase the pace, increase the impact on Russia. But this is a challenge. The president is later going to be going to New Hampshire for domestic economic events. So, he's trying to juggle the international conflict as well as domestic political needs and we'll get a readout sometime this morning on the results of the call, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Because, clearly, what's happening thousands of miles away in Ukraine is also impacting prices here at home as well, and that's something that the president is facing more pressure on as well.

John Harwood, thank you, as always. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Today, the U.N. General Assembly will debate a proposal backed by Washington that would require any of the five permanent members of the Security Council to justify the use of their veto power. Since this war began, Russia has used its veto to paralyze any action against its invasion of Ukraine. There's a long history of that at the U.N. Security Council.

Joining me now, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield. Ambassador, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Thank you, I'm delighted to be here.

SCIUTTO: So, this proposal, it will be introduced today by Lichtenstein, though backed by the U.S., requiring permanent members to justify their use of veto. First, what is the likelihood of this advancing, but more so, would this have a real effect on actions of the Ukraine or a largely symbolic one?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: It's more than symbolic, for sure. And I do expect it will succeed. This has been part of many efforts towards Security Council reform and it will require that the five permanent members who have this extraordinary power to veto explain their vetoes to the general membership.

And we do support it because we think it's an important part of what we do as Security Council members.

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We're representing many others in using this veto power and we are ready to explain when we use it and we think the Russians and the other permanent members should be able to explain why they are using their veto power in the Security Council.

So, we'll be watching this vote in the coming hours and we do expect that it will succeed.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is that Russia has been so willing to lie shamelessly about the war here. And, by the way, this goes back. It blocked action for U.N. Observer Mission to Georgia when Russia invaded Georgia. It blocked action for U.N. investigation when it shut down MH-17, and, again, any action after its invasion of Ukraine.

I just wonder, if the U.N. cannot stop a war in the 21st century, in which we're witnessing war crimes, perhaps every day here, if it cannot do that, what is the U.N.'s true influence today?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: That's an extraordinarily important question and it's one that we grapple with every single day at the United Nations. But we do have the power. We have the power to blunt the Russian veto. We have the power to isolate Russia, which we have successfully done over the course of this war. We have isolated them in the Security Council. And, as you know, in the General Assembly, we have won three significant votes against Russia, including suspending them from the Human Rights Council.

We call them out and condemn their actions in Ukraine and we also supported humanitarian resolutions supporting the Ukrainian people.

Our goal has always been to support Ukraine, isolate Russia and unify NATO and the rest of the world against Russia. And, again, this has been something that we have proudly accomplished and we will continue to work to isolate Russia, as we've done in the past.

SCIUTTO: China's role in this, of course, is central. It also has veto power on the council, but it has a very deep and close relationship, publicly expressed with Russia. We know and we've reported that Russia has asked China for both economic and military help in its invasion.

You have said that China is, quote, uncomfortable with the progress of the invasion here. What evidence do you see of that? And do you see China being willing to substantively check Russia's invasion in any way?

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: As you know, and a couple of the votes we held, China abstained. They did not vote with Russia, and that abstention signifies to us that they are uncomfortable with the relationship that they have established with the Russians as it relates to Ukraine.

China has always been a strong voice on the integrity of borders, on the sovereignty of nations, and this is clearly in violation of the U.N. Charter and it's in violation of the sovereignty of Ukraine. So, they're in an uncomfortable position because they have to defend a country that is going against their core values, the core values that they have professed to believe in.

And so we've seen them waver, we've seen that they have been willing to abstain. They've also been willing to vote with the Russians, particularly on the suspension from the Human Rights Council. But as this war continues, I think China will be put in a position of having to determine whether they are going to continue to defend this aggression that Russia is involved in to continue to defend the human rights violations and the war crimes that the Russians are committing. And if they decide to use their veto in support of Russia, they're going to have to explain that to the entire U.N.

SCIUTTO: The phrase, never again, has been repeated in the halls of the U.N. in the decades since World War II. The fact is, on the ground here in Ukraine, we are seeing atrocities, committed evidence of atrocities every day. Right now, we're watching Mariupol, where you have a thousand people sheltering in a steel plant with Russia deliberately bombing, and Russia has already bombed another shelter containing children, that theater in Mariupol, in the past. So, we know what they're willing to do.

I wonder if you think the world is failing now to physically prevent these things from happening. Yes, they're penalizing Russia but they're not stopping Russia's crimes here. Would you like to see more? Would you like, for instance, to see a U.N.-led mission to rescue these people now sheltering for their lives in Mariupol?

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THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Absolutely, we will continue to find new ways to support the Ukrainian people. Enough has not been done and we will keep trying to do more. We will keep the pressure on the Russians.

Putin clearly doesn't care how this is impacting his own people and he doesn't care at this moment about his own international reputation. But that doesn't mean we have to stop putting pressure on him. And we will continue to do that. We will continue to support the people of Ukraine and we will continue to bring the international community together to condemn what Russia is doing.

And I know for the Ukrainian people who are suffering these horrific attacks, the Ukrainian people who have witnessed the war crimes, this is not enough. I traveled to the region a few weeks ago, I was in Romania, Moldova. I had the opportunity to speak with women who had to leave their families and their homes and their lives behind to escape the atrocities that the Russians are carrying out. And they too are asking, why can't the international community do more?

And what I was able to say to them is that we are doing everything within our power and we will continue to ramp this up until the Russians get the message that it is time for them to stop their assault on the Ukrainian people and move their troops out of Ukraine. Our support for the Ukrainian people is absolutely strong and the support that the Europeans have given has been absolutely strong and the Ukrainians are aware of that support.

Putin's actions, we can't explain. He continues to move forward in this war of aggression against the Ukrainian people, but he will feel the pressure from the international community until he stops.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching closely. Ambassador Linda Thomas- Greenfield, we do appreciate having you on this show this morning.

THOMAS-GREENFIELD: Good. Thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Bianna, quite a test for the U.N. going forward.

GOLODRYGA: And, Jim -- yes. And just to give you a sense of how Vladimir Putin thinks about war crimes, he just promoted those who oversaw the massacre there in Bucha. So, that's where his mind is right now. Great interview, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Not accidental.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Well, still ahead, several companies are following major airlines and dropping mask mandates after a judge struck down the federal requirement. Who is changing their rules and what you should expect when you travel, up next.

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