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Russia's Top Diplomat: "New Phase" Has Begun In Ukraine Operation; Sources: U.S. Unable To Track All The Military Aid Going Into Ukraine; Judge Voids Mask Mandate For Planes, Public Transportation. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired April 19, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Today, Russia's foreign minister declared their invasion of Ukraine has entered a new phase, describing Russia's offensive in the east as a very important moment of this entire special operation.

Ukraine's president, Zelenskyy, also acknowledged the battle for the Donbas region is under way.

We have warning for you, you're about to see graphic footage. This is one of the three people. Their bodies lying on the ground, this is after the Russian shelling in Kharkiv. That's the largest city in Ukraine's east.

The regional authority also reports Russian shelling wounded 16 other people today.

BLACKWELL: Beyond the east, the deputy mayor of Kyiv is asking for 200,000 gas masks in cases of chemical weapons attack.

Now, U.S. intel says that there is a risk of Russia using chemicals but no signs over the past few days that's become more likely.

Right now, in the devastated city of Mariupol, huge smoke plumes. Look at this. They indicate how the Russians are trying to destroy one of the few standing structures left there. It's a steel factory turned shelter. Ukraine says hundreds of civilians have been living there for weeks.

A second deadline for those to surrender has come and gone. And now, we're learning of recordings discussing orders to level this area.

CAMEROTA: So, for more on this audio, we go to CNN's Matt Rivers in Lviv. That's in Western Ukraine.

So, Matt, what are the Russians saying in these intercepts? MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, these intercepts,

and we have heard these kinds of intercepts before published by the Ukrainian government and we should acknowledge that we cannot independently verify the voracity of these -- of these recordings. But, you know, what we heard from the Ukrainian is they captured multiple conversations over the last two months of Russians using unencrypted means of communication and therefore, they can be monitored.

And this latest recording released by the Ukrainians, basically, is between two people, a platoon commander in Russia talking about how there are plans to level that Azovstal steel plant. It's really striking to hear them say that. To talk about leveling that place because that steel, call it a complex. It's massive facility. It really is two things at the moment. On the one hand, it's a fortress. There's a reason why the fighters in this city have chosen to fall back largely to this position because it's very easy position to defend in a lot of ways for these hardened fighters.

But on the other hand, like you said, it's also a shelter because we have come to learn over the past 36 hours or so, we have a fuller picture of the amount of civilians that are inside there. And it's really striking to think about the fact that you have fighters who are obviously risking their lives but you have civilians basically along side those fighters inside this complex.

This is kind of a microcosm of what we're seeing in Mariupol overall. This is a city that has been besieged by Russian forces for weeks now, fighting, you know, civilians alongside Ukrainian military members, fighting against the Russians. And as they have fallen back to this area, you know, you have seen just a dwindling number of fighters and civilians inside this complex and now, it really seems like there's nowhere else to go and completely encircled by the Russians, and yet the Russians are not letting anyone to leave.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of nowhere to go, we know that civilians try to get to safety in some part offense the country using these humanitarian corridors. And there are none agreed to today.

RIVERS: None. None agreed to today, none agreed to yesterday, none agreed to the day before that.

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This is a recurring theme with the Russians repeatedly coming up with reasons why they should not allow these evacuation corridors to be opened up, what the Ukraine side calls war crimes. And yet you have these repeated calls all across the country from Ukrainian officials not only in places like Mariupol, which has some 100,000 residents in and around that area, that need to be evacuated.

But also as we see this renewed Russian offensive in the east, in the Donbas region, you have leadership in Luhansk, leadership in Donetsk, both of those regions urging civilians to get out and yet as the shelling continues, as the fighting continues, if there are not dedicated humanitarian evacuation corridors open up, then civilians are taking their own lives in their hand to try to make their way out as bombs in some cases are literally falling around them. It's an impossible decision for so many families to make.

BLACKWELL: Matt Rivers in Lviv for us, thank you, Matt.

New images on social media appear to support Ukraine's claims that it hit the flagship Russian warship with missiles. It show Russia's guided missile cruiser the Moskva badly damaged and on fire. A giant plume of smoke and large black holes on the port side of the vessel.

Now, the Moskva sank in the Black Sea last Thursday.

CAMEROTA: With us know is CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance.

So, Matthew, you were on that ship. I mean, it's just amazing. That video, that you know that ship well. You were on it years ago.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.

CAMEROTA: So, tell us what you have learned about what happened here?

CHANCE: Well, I mean, I was on it, you're right, about seven years ago when it was deployed off the coast of Syria on a separate assignment that it was there as a platform for missile air defenses to provide cover for the Russian force to carry out their airstrikes against targets inside Syria.

And it was a very powerful weapons platform. That's why it was sent to that part of the eastern Mediterranean, particularly to provide that huge powerful air cover, performing the same role in the Black Sea. It's the flagship of the Black Sea fleet, of course.

It's also able to launch cruise missiles, ground attack missile, which it was doing as well, on targets inside Ukraine. So, a very powerful bit of equipment that's been lost. And that's on a tactical level. Of course, symbolically, the fact it's been lost has sunk. He's now at the bottom of the Black Sea is immensely potent, because as I say, this is one of the most sophisticated, most powerful Russian warships that the Russian navy has. It was a flagship of the Black Sea fleet.

And, you know, to lose it under these circumstances is really quite a humiliating blow for the very proud Russian navy. They lost one of their most important ships for this strike.

BLACKWELL: Beyond the ship, the sailors who were on board, there's a Russian father now on social media searching for some information about the sailors in large part because Russian media isn't giving them any answers.

CHANCE: Yeah, no answers at all. In fact, Russian media are really playing down the fact that the ship has been lost. They're not totally ignoring it because you can't escape the fact the country's most important ship has been sunk.

But, for instance at the weekend, the main current affairs show in Russia, which is three hours long, you don't mention the fact the ship had been lost an hour into the program. It was a 30-second segment. So, they're really trying to keep the lid on the news as much as possible.

And that goes as well for the number of people that have been lost. It's got a crew of about 500 people. Normally, we saw some pictures just after it was sunk of the admiral of the fleet inspecting the survivors of that attack on land. But there's been no indication, officially of how many sailors lost their lives in that apparent missile strike against the ship.

So, you're seeing on social media now, parents of the sailors coming out looking for evidence of where their sons are because it's one thing kind of lying about it and trying to keep a lid on it. You know, you can do that to some extent on state controlled media.

But when you got families, they're looking for their sons, their husbands and their brothers, it's much, much harder to keep that under wraps.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about what's happening in Bucha or what did happen in Bucha. So, that was a scene of just mass atrocity. And now, Vladimir Putin is awarding an honorary, as we understand, title I guess to the Russian brigade that was accused of committing those atrocities.

But, of course, we also heard that it was all staged and there were no atrocities that happened in Bucha. So, which one is it?

CHANCE: Well, I mean, the Russian say it was all staged. I mean, remember, this honorific title that's been given to this brigade, and it's the 64th motor rifle brigade have been given the title guard which is an honorific title in the Russian military. But they're not being awarded for the crimes against humanity that we have seen carried out when they were in control of that area in Bucha, north of the Ukrainian capital.

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But they're being rewarded for defending Russia's sovereignty, for bravery, for courage. And it's the Kremlin yet again doubling down on this idea that human rights abuses, war crimes were not committed by Russian forces. They categorically deny that. They say the bodies were put there, that people were killed by the Ukrainians themselves to make Russia look bad.

And the fact this brigade from the far east of Russia which was deployed to Ukraine to carry out this invasion is being honored in this way shows the Kremlin is not backing down from that line. It's doubling down on it.

CAMEROTA: Matthew Chance, great to have you here in studio with us. Thanks for all the great reporting.

CHANCE: Thank you. CAMEROTA: So, a flight carrying new military aid for Ukraine has just

touched down in Europe. A senior defense official says seven more should be arriving in just the next 24 hours.

So far, the U.S. has sent more than $3 billion worth of military assistance to Ukraine. But sources now tell CNN the U.S. is limited in its ability to track the supply of weaponry that it is supplying to Ukraine.

CNN's Oren Liebermann joins us now.

So, Oren, why can't the U.S. track it?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: It's simply a challenge to know where all of this going because there's so much and Ukraine is large country, but also, there are no U.S. troops or advisers or assistants or analysts on the ground in Ukraine to know where all this is going. The U.S. position is that it's their job to get all of this aid, $800 million now plus the billions that have come before to the Ukrainian border and hand it over to the Ukrainians.

From that point, it's up to the Ukrainian forces to decide where it goes and where it's needed. A senior defense official said yesterday they have a far better sense of that and an idea of that. Once it crosses border, the U.S. views it as Ukrainian property and it's up to them to disperse it, to spread it out and to and use it where it's needed.

What's critical for the U.S. right now is it knows that Ukraine needs ammunition, small arms ammunition, artillery ammunition for the coming fight ahead. They are already seeing some uptick in activity over the course of the last 24, 48, 72 hours in terms of long range strike on southeast Ukraine. What they are calling a shaping for the battle ahead, the effort to take and destroy Ukrainian forces there and to occupy southeast Ukraine.

And for that fight, the U.S. is well aware that it needs to pump in as much ammunition or artillery as it can as quickly as possible. That's why you're seeing these flights from the $800 million package that was approve earlier, about a week or so already arriving, five to this point. A senior defense official said earlier today, another 7 expected over the course of the next 24 hours.

The U.S. knows what's needed most. It's the artillery. It's the ammunition, and that's at the top of the list to get into Ukraine as quickly as possible.

BLACKWELL: Oren Liebermann for us at the Pentagon -- Oren, thank you very much.

We are joined now by Ukrainian parliament member Alex Goncharenko.

Thank you for being back with us. Let's pick up where we left off there. The tracking of these weapons and weapon systems that are coming into Ukraine, are you confident that the Ukrainian government, Ukrainian military can keep these out of Russian forces hands? ALEX GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Absolutely. We can see

that Ukraine is using the weapons extremely effective. And you already talked about this historical thing about Russia cruiser Moskva sunk down. When is the last time in the world cruiser that were sunk down in 1982 by British navy, Argentinian cruiser that were sunk down. And Russia lost their flag ship for the last time in their history in 1905 in Russian-Japanese war. So, more than 100 years ago.

So, that is a historical event. It happened with Ukrainian weapon. Ukraine is capable of using the most modern weapon. And for the moment, there's no, any evidences of cases when there are weapons delivered by the United States finally was found in Russian hands.

So, I think that Ukraine showed that we are absolutely reliable partner and countries which have given us weapons can be confident that it will be used very effectively and that will not be in their hands of Putin.

BLACKWELL: Let's turn now to Mariupol and this steel plant, Azovstal, where we're told that hundreds of people, maybe up to a thousand are sheltering there. We're talking about civilians. It's being targeted by Russians. There are no humanitarian corridors set up to allow people to leave safely.

How do you get these people out of this building?

GONCHARENKO: We can't -- we can just address to the world to help us to do this. You know that there was President Macron who said that he would try to make an operation to save people.

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President Erdogan from Turkey who said the same. But Putin is refusing to everybody. And yes, that is extremely awful situation when more than 1,000 people, including children, women, wounded people cannot escape this factory, Azovstal, which is one of the strongholds which are controlled, still controlled by Ukraine and Mariupol.

And that is -- that shows the way of Russia's fighting the war. This is Russian style, Russian playbook, just to destroy everything, commit war crimes, kill everybody, then to say that everything is just staged, nobody that had happened, and then to give a guards honor to these killers, like real killers and rapers who did all of this. That's the Russian style. They did in Chechnya. They did it in Syria. Now they are doing it in Ukraine in the 21st century in the middle of Europe.

BLACKWELL: You mentioned the honor given to the brigade responsible for the war crimes in Bucha. Putin congratulated them for, quote, great heroism and courage, and awarded the unit title of guard for protecting Russian sovereignty. You brought it up there in passing. I wonder your reaction to that honor from President Putin.

GONCHARENKO: Guard means from Russian, that is a military, which is the most close to emperor. That was idea historically. So, when the emperor, Putin himself is a murderer, is a butcher, then his guards are murderers, rapers and butchers, who they are, after what they did in Bucha. So, that is absolutely clear signal to the world.

Putin is saying, I am murderer, I'm killer. I'm going to kill more and it's just something that the whole world should unite and stop him. That's the moment when the free world should show to other dictators on the planet that free world can be united. It can be strong enough to stop killers like Putin.

BLACKWELL: The administration here in the U.S. is considering sending a high ranking official. The White House says there are no plans to send the president, President Zelenskyy wants President Biden to visit the country.

Would you like President Biden to come there? Or is this even a priority for you?

GONCHARENKO: You know, I think it's not that President Zelenskyy or me or Ukrainian nation wants President Biden to be here. I think that the president of the United States is by definition the leader of free world and I think that the leader of the free world should be now in the most dangerous place where his leadership is needed. That is something about the whole free world.

And that's why I am so eager to see President Biden in Kyiv, not because it's just, you know, a symbol. But it is just to show leadership and certainly, the visit itself if not sufficient. But visit with strong steps made, with the real sanctions of the whole united free world, for example, embargo, ban in Russian oil and gas, that will be a so strong signal that can change history.

BLACKWELL: Alex Goncharenko, member of Ukraine's parliament, thank you, sir.

GONCHARENKO: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: Well, back here, the White House says it's reviewing next steps after a federal judge struck a blow to its transportation mask mandate. More on what's next.

GONCHARENKO: And a month after Disney denounced Governor Ron DeSantis's so-called "don't say gay bill", the Florida Republican is targeting the company's long standing self-governing status.

We'll explain what that means.

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CAMEROTA: Travelers are having mixed reactions to a federal judge's decision to end the country's mask mandate on public transportation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like contradicting. It's like a lot of stuff going on. Don't do this, don't to that. Then you have to listen to both. I'm not wearing a mask at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to play that game, you know, go ahead but I'm going to keep the mask on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: According to a Kaiser Family Foundation poll, this was taken last month, before the ruling, U.S. adults were split nearly 50/50 on whether the Biden administration should end the mandate.

BLACKWELL: Let's discuss now with CNN medical analyst, Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He's also a professor of medicine at George Washington University. Also with us, University of Baltimore law professor, Kim Wehle.

Doctor, let's start with you and the public health perspective. Is it time -- is this the right time to lift the mandate?

DR. JONATHAN REINERM, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: No, it's a horrible time to lift the mandate. Let's look at what's going on in terms of the omicron surge right now, BA.2 in the United States. Over the last two week, cases have increased in the United States about 40 percent, daily cases rising about 40 percent. Hospitalizations which were dropping have now leveled off and will soon rise.

But whereas, you know, last year, all of the tests were basically reported to CDC. Now, virtually all the tests that are being done in this country are being done at home with these rapid tests. It's very likely the actual number of cases in this country is more like four times the number of cases that are reported.

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So, if the United States has I think we do have, which is over 150,000 cases per day currently, we're seeing as much as at the peak of delta. So, what we've done is we removed a travel mask mandate with an incredibly high level of virus. And right now, as of today, it's less safe to fly in this country than it was yesterday.

CAMEROTA: Professor, this, as has been pointed out, was a legal decision. Not a medical decision. Do you think it was a sound legal decision?

KIM WEHLE, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERISTY OF BALTIMORE: You know, Alisyn, I do not. I say that as someone who teaches what's called administrative law. This is a wonky decision that's in the depths of complex agency law. But it's really quite outcome determinative.

Essentially, what this boils down to is Congress passed a statue that gave the CDC the ability to regulate communicable diseases. It's a very broad delegation of power. This judge tortured the delegation to argue that the mask mandate was outside the scope of the power that Congress gave to the agency. And a plain, common sense reading of that language doesn't hold up to her analysis which took some caveats in the statute and used them to swallow the broad mandate.

This is power-grabbing and it's really unfortunate because as the other panelist mentioned, it's going harm public health. And if the public doesn't like the authority the CDC has to do this, the answer is to call the representatives of Congress and have them change the law. Not for some judge in Florida who is appointed under the last administration to decide for herself what the policy for the nation should be. This is first year law student error as far as I can see from reading the very long but poorly analyzed decision, in my view.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Reiner, we're all tired of wearing masks on trains, buses, planes, in buildings. But if this now is up to the individual, who should still wear masks in these places? Who from a public health perspective needs that extra protection?

REINER: Well, first of all, I think every one should wear a mask. And I'll note that when the president traveled today on Air Force One, every one was required to wear a mask. So, if every one on Air Force One was required to wear mask, why isn't the public required to wear a mask when we travel in commercial aircraft.

But I would say that we know that one way masking can help. But the reason why it's so important for everyone on the aircraft to mask is that the protection offered by two way masking or when ever one present is covering their faces is to much greater. It's twice. Twice the protection when both parties in close contact are masked.

I would say that right now, certainly if you are pregnant, you should wear a mask. Children who not vaccinated should wear mask. If you are taking medication that reduces your immune response like some of these immune modulators like multiple sclerosis, you should wear a mask. I think the entire public should wear a mask, not just to protect yourself, but to protect, you know, the person sitting next to you, in case you happen to have an asymptomatic infection.

It's been estimated in some places that about 2 percent of people who go for a test will have an asymptomatic positive tests. So, if they're about 150 people on 737, you're going to see a handful of people on that flight who are positive who don't know it. It's best for every one to wear a mask.

And the other thing I would say is do not wear a loose-fitting mask, do not try and wear cloth mask. Do not wear a surgical mask. You want a full pledge N-95 mask or KN95 mask or a KF94 mask. You want a tight- fitting mask. The other protection is simply not adequate.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Reiner, I have one more medical question for you, because Delta put its statement celebrating this statement. They said, we're relieved to see that the U.S. mask mandate lift as COVID-19 has transitioned to an ordinary seasonal virus.

Is that true? Is it an ordinary seasonal virus though?

REINER: Yeah, that -- Alisyn, that ordinary seasonal virus some time in next few weeks will have killed its one millionth person. Omicron which is circulating now in a more transmissible form, BA.2, since it came to the United States in December, has killed about 150,000 people. In an average year with a seasonal virus like the flu, we lose somewhere between 30,000 to 50,000 people.

This is no seasonal virus. Seasonal virus doesn't kill the people who care for people who are admitted to the hospital with it.