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U.S. Assesses No Major Territorial Gains for Russia in East So Far; Fighting Intensifies as Russian Assault Surges in Eastern Ukraine; Mariupol Mayor Calls for All Residents to Evacuate. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired April 20, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He continues on the stand. It will be most likely specific instances, because Heard is alleging terrible abuse, pulling her by her hair, bashing her head, violence at the hands of Johnny Depp. And he just testified under oath that he never struck her.

So, what will come next and what is the truth? And that is the point of this.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN NEWSROOM: And you'll be watching this for us. Jean Casarez, thank you.

CASAREZ: Thanks.

GOLODRYGA: Good morning, everyone, I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

This morning, a fresh assessment by the U.S. Officials say Russia has made no major territorial gains in Ukraine's Donbas region since the start of this new offensive. We're told U.S. officials have observed probing attacks which are meant to test Ukrainian defenses.

But we're also getting new video Rubizhne, in Lysychansk, which appears to show severe damage from recent strikes.

Also new this morning, Ukrainian troops refusing to surrender the besieged city of Mariupol despite a deadline by forces, the mayor there now urging all residents to evacuate today along an agreed upon humanitarian corridor. All of this as sources say the U.S. is set to announce yet another $800 million in military aid to Ukraine focused on artillery and ammunition.

Let's begin this hour with CNN Correspondent Matt Rivers. He's reporting live from Lviv, in Western Ukraine. And, Matt, the mayor of Mariupol is urging his residents to evacuate, and it comes as a top state department official is telling CNN that NATO allies could be involved in helping civilians get to safety. This is new. What are you hearing?

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is new, Bianna, and it's something that we know the people inside of that Asovstal steel plant complex started calling for as recently as yesterday. We spoke to -- CNN spoke to the commander of the Ukrainian marines that are part of the Ukrainian resistance that is still holding out inside that steel plant yesterday.

And what he said is he was calling for a third party country to basically be involved in an evacuation route, basically saying that it would take a country outside Ukraine and Russia to kind of facilitate an evacuation, not only for the soldiers that remain inside that steel plant but also for the hundreds and hundreds of civilians as well.

And we have a quote that we can show you from this marine commander who said in part, we are completely surrounded. There are about 500 wounded military. It is very difficult to provide them with medical care. They literally rot. There are civilians on the territory. They are also suffering with explosions, blasts on them, next to them. Enemy groups outnumber us dozens of times. They have a complete advantage in air, artillery, equipment, manpower.

And, basically, this commander is calling on a third party country to be involved because they simply don't trust the Russians. They say, look at their reputation. Look at recent actions all across Ukraine. What have they done that would lead to any confidence that they could safely oversee a humanitarian corridor that would not result in the deaths of more innocent civilians and more soldiers who had already surrendered?

Now, the state department official speaking to CNN earlier today said a NATO ally could be involved in that but said this kind of thing has fallen apart before. It's really up to the Russians to allow this to happen, this as we're still awaiting word, Bianna, on if this evacuation corridor allegedly that opened at 2:00 P.M. local time today, that's a few hours ago now, is actually working, if citizens from Mariupol are actually being safely evacuated. It's so hard to get information out of that city right now due to the lack of a communications infrastructure after all this fighting.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, that would be notably though if a NATO member was able to secure some sort of humanitarian corridor to get those remaining troops and civilians out of Mariupol.

Matt Rivers, thank you.

Well, the president of the European Council is vowing the world will not forget Russia's atrocities in Ukraine. Charles Michel tweeted this picture when he arrived at a train station in Kyiv today. He also visited the devastated town of Borodyanka, writing, Borodyanka, like Bucha, and too many other towns in Ukraine, history will not forget the war crimes that have been committed here. There can be no peace without justice. Now, I'm joined now CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson. Nic, this visit comes as the E.U. is still discussing its sixth round of sanctions against Russia. Where do those stand and what's included in these?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: The question is will oil be included, how will it be included, which countries are currently blocking a boycott of Russian oil. Hungary, we know, is opposed, speaking yesterday with the Belgian finance minister, who's also the deputy prime minister here. I asked him about that, obviously being an E.U. nation, how the E.U. moves forward on the issue of sanctions, specifically on oil, because that's the biggest ticket item and the one that can do the most financial damage to Russia and perhaps curtail President Putin's war aims.

[10:05:05]

He said, look, we have to move together. We have to move together with unity.

Speaking with other diplomats today, really, no one is really looking this week of getting a sixth round of sanctions up and running and agreed, looking forward, perhaps will be after this weekend at the very earliest, after the French elections, because a lot of E.U. diplomacy at the moment depends on the French and to have the French president, Emmanuel Macron, around the table.

So, Charles Michel is the sort of the leader of the leaders, if you will, when they sit down in the European Council. He is the one that tries to get consensus around the table. But at the moment, there isn't -- the leaders are not coming together, the ambassadors are not at the moment and the ministers are not at the moment of sort of coming up with another round of sanctions. But it really will be about how close they can get to and how much they can throttle back the use of Russian oil and put a block on it.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, and a reminder that much of that oil is flowing through Ukraine, right, in the midst of this war. That's the direction it's coming from and billions of dollars are going into Russia in payment for it.

Meanwhile, another example of Putin's worst nightmare becoming reality, Finland today is taking a big step towards their NATO application after remaining neutral for decades. What can you tell us about that?

ROBERTSON: Yes. The government is putting forward to parliament its paper what it thinks are the reasons and the rationale and the potential steps towards NATO membership, its concerns about Russia's unpredictability at the moment and its aggressive nature. That's what we heard from the Finnish prime minister and other Finnish officials over the past couple of weeks.

What happens now, when it goes to the Finnish parliament, this is the sort of very beginning where they discuss the sort of modalities of what happens when they get into debate, how this will be sort of put before the Finnish public for the Finnish public to be informed about what's being discussed, when the parliamentary then agree and make a decision, so all about the formalities of the steps that it's going to go through.

But as we heard from the prime minister of Finland, this is a process that is expected to take just weeks. It represents a significant shift in the public mood in Finland for support of joining NATO. So, they're expecting to have the whole process wrapped up before the end of May and potentially putting this as a request to join NATO by the leaders' summit of NATO, that's in Madrid at the end of June.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, Finland and then Sweden expected to follow suit as well.

Nic Robertson, thank you.

Well, I'm joined by former Deputy Director of National Intelligence Beth Sanner. Beth, great to have on.

So, let's begin with the standoff there in Mariupol, because it does appear that we are just hours, if not days away before that besieged port city is in the hands of Russians. Can you talk about this latest request and now news that perhaps a NATO member, a third party, will, in fact, step in and help secure a humanitarian corridor of sorts to get these wounded troops and the hundreds of civilians that remain there out of the city? Is that something that you think is plausible, and is that a right thing to do?

BETH SANNER, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I think it would be the right thing to do but I don't think it's very plausible. I don't think that the Russians will allow a third party to come in, I mean, perhaps the U.N. But we have to also look at the U.N. Security Council yesterday where the Russians flatly rejected a request at any U.N. Security Council for a four-day ceasefire in order to evacuate civilians. So, they don't really seem in the mood.

They have to take Mariupol and they want to do it, I think, with significant casualties.

GOLODRYGA: As Jim Sciutto here has been reporting, thus far, U.S. intelligence doesn't believe that Russia is making much inroads just a few days into this phase two of the operation there in Donbas. Do you think that the taking hold of Mariupol would be a game changer from the point of view of Russian military? And would we then start to see a huge shift from then?

SANNER: Well, they have about 10,000 troops there, and once they get it, it will free some of those up, but I don't think it will significantly change the war in terms of the Donbas. You'll be able to put some of those troops going up, but there is still going to be resistance around Mariupol even if the Asovstal steel plant falls. And they are going to have to occupy that town.

They cannot lose Mariupol and the land bridge because it is really the way that they save Crimea, and along with that area just to the north there, Kherson, which is where the water supply to Crimea comes in. [10:10:09]

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, listen, securing the land is one thing. Securing the people, as you can see from the battle that's ensued there in MARIUPOL, is quite different, and these residents in Ukraine did not welcome Russian soldiers with open arms.

Let me ask you about the news of yet another $800 million weapons package coming from the United States. What do you think that will do in terms of getting some of that hard armor on the ground there in the hands of Ukrainians as they are getting ready for this next massive battle?

SANNER: The real key is not just the overflow into Ukraine. I think that the U.S. logistics system is working that really well. It's really what happens to those weapons once they get into Ukraine and how do they get to the frontlines.

And after it flows over the border, it's really up to the Ukrainians to get it there. And we don't have a good idea of how that's going or -- and we can't really help. And I think that's a big problem.

GOLODRYGA: That's obviously the focus here, is the United States and the most powerful NATO member. But close second there, you've got the largest economy in Europe, and that's Germany. A lot of people still questioning why the Germans aren't stepping up more with providing additional heavy weaponry, more tanks, you have the chancellor there becoming very defensive, saying, we have no more weapons that we can deliver. Are they right here, or can they be doing more?

SANNER: They absolutely can be doing more. German Chancellor Scholz is making a huge political error, I think, for himself. The German people, majorities, clearly want heavy weapons to flow in. Now, the Germans don't have a lot of it and what they have is very sophisticated, but they can do a lot more and they could do a lot more faster. They're really not delivering, and Scholz in Germany is going to pay a price for that in terms of their reputation. I mean, they've turned on a dime but now they need to follow through.

And, frankly, France isn't doing that much more either. So, they need to do a lot more, maybe after the election. We have Estonia putting 1 percent of their GDP into this battle. We know who the allies are who are delivering.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And that is exactly why President Zelenskyy keeps checking all of these countries on a daily basis, now saying that you guys can have a bigger impact in this war by delivering more of your weapons.

Beth Sanner, thank you, as always, great to see you.

SANNER: Thanks.

GOLODRYGA: Well, there on the ground in Ukraine, we're also joined by our colleague. I want to want bring Jim Sciutto back into the show from Lviv. Jim, you're really learning this hour about U.S. assessments of what is really happening in Eastern Ukraine. Tell us about it.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: That's right. It's early in Russia's new focus in its offensive in the eastern part of this country, but, so far, I'm told by two U.S. officials with knowledge of the assessment, there has been no exchange of territory, significant amounts of territory that the U.S. has observed so far. U.S. has observed some of what they believe to be probing attacks by Russian forces, testing Ukrainian defenses, but, so far, those battle lines in the east remain static despite the enormous Russian weaponry and forces that they now have massed there.

The other headline is that as the U.S. prepares Ukraine for this intense offensive in the east, they are, as we've discussed, Bianna, rushing in a new aid package, $800 million, still in draft form, but I'm told that the focus will be on artillery, specifically U.S.-made 156-millimetre howitzers and ammo and to get enough in because they're conscious of the scale of the battle they're expecting there. They're asking several NATO allies to contribute what they can as well, both in terms of howitzers and ammunition. They want to get a lot in. They want to get it quickly. That's focus now.

Up next, I'm going to speak to the U.S. charge d'affaires in Ukraine, that's the highest level diplomat, not currently in the country but representing the U.S. interests in Ukraine, on what we could expect next as the U.S. gauges the next step of this war beyond aid, possible visits by a senior U.S. official. How soon before the embassy returns to Kyiv?

GOLODRYGA: Plus, we'll speak with a member of Ukraine's parliament who was echoing Volodymyr Zelenskyy, saying that if Ukraine had certain weapons, the war would have been over by now. What he wants to see delivered, next.

And still ahead, will the Justice Department appeal a judge's ruling striking down the mask mandate. Why the CDC's input matters and how it could set up the dominoes for a Supreme Court hearing on the issue.

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SCIUTTO: Right now, at least 17 diplomatic missions are now back in Ukraine after withdrawing those missions temporarily at the beginning of this war. But Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, he wants more back. He said, it's time for missions and embassies to reestablish their presence in the country and that includes the U.S., which is currently still operating just across the border from here in Lviv, in Poland.

Joining me now is the acting U.S. ambassador of Ukraine, Kristina Kvien. Ambassador, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

KRISTINA KVIEN, U.S. CHARGE D'AFFAIRES TO UKRAINE: Thanks, Jim, I'm happy to be with you. SCIUTTO: So, I know the embassy and the State Department have been exploring the return of U.S. diplomats, including yourself, to Ukraine.

[10:20:02]

Is that return imminent now?

KVIEN: Well, we're all -- all of us here in Poland, the team, are looking forward to going back into Ukraine. We can't wait to get back and start working there. But it's up to the security professionals. We value their judgment and listen to their advice. And so they are constantly assessing. And as soon as they assess that it's safe to go in, we'll go back in.

SCIUTTO: 17 other countries have already made the judgment that it's safe for their diplomats to be there. I know that each country makes its own judgments. But do you feel, do you worry that the U.S. is behind on this?

KVIEN: Well, as I said, safety is really the most important consideration for me and my team, and I listen to my professionals in judging that. So, when they tell me it's good to go, we'll go.

SCIUTTO: The other thing on the agenda, perhaps, is a visit by a senior U.S. official. Names have been floated from the president, vice president, to the defense secretary to the secretary of state. I know that that discussion as well is sensitive. It has its own particular security concerns. But is a visit by a senior U.S. official on the horizon and do you believe, as a diplomat who served in Ukraine for some time, that that presence, that a visit like that would be important, impactful?

KVIEN: Well, I don't have anything to announce in terms of a visit, but, of course, it's always good for people to meet in person, whether it's inside Ukraine or outside Ukraine. We have had the opportunity to meet with top Ukrainian officials outside of Ukraine, and, hopefully, soon, we'll be able to meet them inside of Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you now, because I know you're watching the war here closely, as well as U.S support the Ukrainian military. New focus now on the east, tremendous Russian force now concentrated there. What is your view as to how this next phase of the war will play out? I've spoken to U.S. military officials who describe World War II-like battles to come here.

KVIEN: Well, it does seem that the Russians are amassing a great deal of force in the east, recall that there has been war going on there for eight years now. So, this is not something new to either side. And the lines of contact have been drawn for quite a long time.

But I do think that the Ukrainians will be able to hold the line because they've done so for eight years. And they fought incredibly well so far. They've been heroic. They've been motivated. And they love their country and they want to protect it. I would say the Russians have not succeeded in what they've set out to do so far. I have not been particularly impressed with the Russians' tactics nor with their ability to get done what they say they want to get done, so I have a lot of faith in the Ukrainians, and to back that up, we're providing them as much equipment, material and weapons as we can to help them in the fight.

SCIUTTO: You mentioned, of course, the security aspect of making a decision to return U.S. diplomats. The U.S. is providing a tremendous amount of deadly, lethal military assistance to Ukraine. Russian officials speak very publicly now about feeling justified in attacking those shipments. Are you concerned as a senior U.S. diplomat for Ukraine that Russia is getting closer to attacking U.S. and NATO shipments, perhaps forces or personnel directly?

KVIEN: Well, if Russia steps one toe over NATO, NATO will respond. President Biden has made that clear, and we are ready to do so. We have the 86th Airborne here just down the street from where I am in Poland. They're here to help support Poland and the eastern flank of NATO, and they will do so.

SCIUTTO: There is a tremendous amount of tension, and I know that includes yourself, on the situation of particularly the civilians now hold up for their safety in that steel plant in Mariupol, as well as many soldiers there, many of them wounded. There are discussions now of not just a humanitarian corridor but the possibility of some NATO countries' involvement in ensuring the safe passage of people outside of Mariupol.

How exactly would that work and what NATO partners and would the U.S. be involved at all?

KVIEN: I can't really comment to NATO or U.S. involvement in that, but what I can say is that the United States strongly supports the ability of civilians, children, women who are not just in the steel plant but in Mariupol itself. There is over 100,000 civilians that are still stuck in Mariupol.

[10:25:00]

Most of them have shortages of water, shortages of food. Oftentimes, they're living in situations with no electricity, and sometimes their buildings are significantly damaged. Many of those are in the steel plant because they didn't have anywhere else to go and they can't get out because the Ukrainians have been trying to set up a humanitarian corridor to get out women, children, civilians, for days now, and Russia just keeps shelling and will not let them through.

So, I know there have been discussion of perhaps having a corridor. We very much hope and urge Russia to allow that to happen so that the civilians, the women, the children, the elderly can get out and get to safety.

SCIUTTO: Yes. We've witnessed a lot of cases where Russia have not abided by the rules of those humanitarian corridors. Ambassador Kristina Kvien, thanks so much for joining the program this morning. SANNER: Thank you. It's been good to talk to you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, back here in the U.S., the future of the government's transportation mask mandate rests now with the CDC. A look at when and if the agency could weigh in. That's up next.

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