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Donald Trump Jr. Expected To Meet With 1/6 Committee; NYT: McCarthy, McConnell Weighed Using 25th Amendment After 1/6 To Remove Trump; Soon, Obama To Deliver Speech On Disinformation; Malcolm Nance, Former MSNBC Analyst, Discusses Joining Ukrainian International Legion; Ukrainian Military Intel Release Intercepts Of Russian Communications Appearing To Refer To Alleged Order To Kill Ukrainian POWs; Gina McCarthy, White House National Climate Adviser, Discusses New Report On Increased Pollution In U.S. & Biden Allowing Higher Ethanol Gas To Bring Down Prices. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 21, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And of course, Victor, this comes after the revelation of that text message that CNN exclusively reported that detailed,

On November 5th, just two days after the election, Donald Trump Jr sending to Mark Meadows, the then-White House chief of staff, a lengthy list of different ideas to try and challenge the election results.

It's pretty clear the committee's interested to learn more about what Donald Trump was getting these ideas from.

His attorney telling us at the time that he believed that Donald Trump Jr was just forwarding on ideas from other people. Well, where did those ideas come from? The committee is probably interested in that.

And then of course, keep in mind that Donald Trump Jr was a key member of the Trump campaign. He is someone that traveled across the country as a key surrogate for his father, and also remains very close to him personally.

So, Donald Trump Jr, an important player in all of this. And it is significant that the committee has reached some sort of deal for him to come forward and answer questions about what he knows about the events leading up to January 6th -- Victor?

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: There's certainly a lot to learn there.

Let's turn now to the new reporting in "The New York Times." Ryan, shows two top Republicans had some serious concerns about former President Trump's ability to lead after January 6th. Tell us more about that.

NOBLES: Yes. And those two leaders are important ones, right? This is Kevin McCarthy, the House minority leader, and Senator Mitch McConnell, who is the Republican leader in the Senate. And both of them expressing real concerns behind closed doors, according to this reporting from Jonathan Martin and Alex Burns, for their book which is coming out.

In fact, one time, they report of an instance where Kevin McCarthy said that he has had it with this guy, talking about Donald Trump.

Now, both of their public postures changed both publicly and privately in the days after January 6th where both McConnell and McCarthy were very critical of Donald Trump.

They did soften a bit as time went on. McCarthy, in particular, who has now become a full-fledged supporter of the former president and is embracing his role in helping Republicans win back the House majority.

And Kevin McCarthy responding to this report today saying, quote, "'The New York Times; reporting on me is totally false and wrong. And it come as no surprise," he says, "that the corporate media's obsessed with doing everything it can to further the liberal agenda."

He goes on to claim that the reporters did not come to him before publishing this in their book.

But, Victor, what this demonstrates is this careful dance that Republican leaders have. They cannot alienate Donald Trump because of the powerful force he remains in the Republican Party.

But it is clear that, from at least behind the scenes, they had real reservations about his conduct on January 6th and they weren't exactly sure how to deal with it -- Victor?

BLACKWELL: Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill. Ryan, thank you very much.

Let's bring in now CNN's political director, David Chalian, along with former federal prosecutor, Renato Mariotti.

Renato, let me begin with you with this breaking news about Donald Trump Jr.

First, you had Ivanka Trump, Jared Kushner, Kimberly Guilfoyle to testify. Donald Trump Jr can give some serious insight into that period between the vote and the insurrection on the 6th.

The significance to you on his meeting with the committee?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think the real significance is just we're seeing a trend where even folks within the Trump family are being cooperative with the committee.

That is really good news to the January 6th committee, because it makes it a lot easier to get their work done before the election. It is much easier to reach sort of a deal and cooperate with folks.

So from my perspective, this means that we're on track to get a report from this committee, potentially referrals to the Justice Department, before the election. BLACKWELL: One more for you, Renato.

One of the texts, as part of this exclusive CNN reporting, between Donald Trump and Mark Meadows, former chief of staff for the then- president, it's very simple.

He tweeted here, on November 5th, of course, before the election was called, "We have multiple paths. We control them all. We have operational control."

If you're trying to figure out what led up to this insurrection that was based on a lie, this seems like a good place to start.

MARIOTTI: Yes, absolutely.

It really sounds, Victor, like a text that's suggesting that they have the ability to overturn a democratic election, that they have the ability to act against the will of the people, and essentially impose a winner in the race that's not the person who got the most votes.

So, it's obviously very disturbing. I suspect that Donald Trump Jr will have an innocent or an alternative explanation of that text.

But it's really hard to see it, as I'm sitting here today, with that -- what exactly that innocent explanation would be.

BLACKWELL: David, now to you on the implications on what we're hearing from McCarthy and McConnell.

First, what they felt and thought immediately after the insurrection. The implications of that.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. You know, they both have "leader" in their title. And they seemed for a moment in time trying to lead their party to a place where Donald Trump's power within it, in the aftermath of January 6th, Victor, would be diminished.

They looked behind them and saw they were leaders without many followers because Donald Trump still clearly was resonating with the lie about the 2020 election with the base.

[14:35:04]

And their membership, both in the Senate and the House, basically said to them, you know, this is not a place we're going to go. We're going to sort of take on our own voters and say that Donald Trump should somehow be excommunicated from the party in some way.

So, their decision -- you know, I know the reporting is looking at that moment in time, those brief few days where they looked like they were really ready to take on Trump, Victor.

But I actually think the much bigger moment is when they decided just a few days later to acquiesce to Donald Trump, because that allowed his Big Lie about the election to continue to fester for the better part of the last year and become a real lifeforce inside the Republican Party.

BLACKWELL: Yes. McConnell saying that he would support Donald Trump if he were the nominee of the party in 2024. And McCarthy went down to Mar-a-Lago within weeks of the insurrection to meet with the former president.

Let me ask you about another former president. President Obama scheduled to give a speech in the next hour on disinformation. He has talked about this before, talked about it a lot recently.

Here he is at a conference earlier this month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's something I grappled with a lot during my presidency. I saw it sort of unfold. And that is the degree to which information, disinformation, misinformation was being weaponized.

And we saw it. But I think I underestimated the degree to which democracies were as vulnerable to it as they were, including ours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: And this is something, you know, he's not talking about as something that impacted his administration but could impact 2022, 2024.

CHALIAN: Well, this has been a real passion project for the former president. As he said, he watched a lot of this unfold in his presidency.

He also remembered his 2008 campaign started experiencing some of this. They launched a whole sort of "fight the smears" Web site to push back on the notion that was out there that he was a Muslim or not born in the United States or what have you.

And so, Barack Obama was familiar with disinformation, and he saw it grow over the course of his presidency.

Of course, one of the reasons he remains so animated by it, and it's dominated so many of his private conversations since he left the Oval Office, Victor, is because he handed over the presidency to Donald Trump.

Somebody he didn't think should -- had the credentials, really, to be in that position. Quite frankly, why he fought so hard for Joe Biden's election in 2020.

It was one of his main arguments was that Donald Trump was chiseling away at the foundations of our democracy. And, in large part, that had to do with the disinformation he was putting in place.

Now, of course, given -- as Barack Obama at that conference you were just playing, said that nearly 40 percent of the country actually believes that Joe Biden was illegitimately elected. You heard at the end there. Obama's not just talking about democracies

on the world stage. He's talking about ours right here at home as well.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and we'll stand by to see what he says next hour.

David Chalian, Renato Mariotti, thank you both.

CHALIAN: Sure.

BLACKWELL: New audio from Ukraine's military intelligence reveals an alleged order to Russian armed forces to kill Ukrainian prisoners of war. Up next, I'll discuss with a now-former TV analyst who has joined the fight in Ukraine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:43:12]

BLACKWELL: Ukraine's military just released a purported communications intercept from Russia. And it claimed that voices of Russian soldiers are discussing an order to kill Ukrainian prisoners of war in the eastern region of Luhansk, which is suffering an onslaught of Russian missiles.

My next guest is the former MSNBC analyst, an American, who left his television job, has joined Ukraine's International Legion against Russia. He's also a former naval intelligence officer, Malcolm Nance.

Thank you so much for being with me.

I want to get to that recording in a moment.

But I want to start with you, sir. Was this a decision to leave your job, join the fight, was it based on a single event or did this happen over time?

MALCOLM NANCE, FORMER MSNBC ANALYST WHO JOINED UKRAINIAN INTERNATIONAL LEGION AGAINST RUSSIA: Well, it happened over time, but that period of time was quite small. You know, and it did have a precipitating event, and that was the invasion of Ukraine.

And my friends being trapped down in Donetsk, being hit by hundreds of rounds of artillery, and calling and telling their friends and family they were going to die within the next day or two.

You know, you can't sit and listen to that and then watch the -- this incredible massacre of people as Russia invaded and not want to actually do something.

And I just decided that it was time to do something and take action using the skills that I had and offered them to the International Legion for the defense of Ukraine.

BLACKWELL: So you said you had to do something. What is it that you are doing on a daily basis now there? NANCE: Well, everyone in the legion is a -- is essentially an

infantryman and carries out the activities as directed. We don't have any rear-area support, despite what some people might think.

[14:45:01]

Right now, I've been taken off the line to explain what the legion is. It's practically the greatest secret that's been held over the last eight weeks in this country.

A lot of people think that they know who the foreign fighters were in the International Legion. It's not.

We're an organization that is formed under the Ukrainian army. We are Ukrainian army soldiers and have I.D. cards accorded to us by the Geneva Convention.

We are not just people on the battlefield who picked up rifles and decided to fight.

BLACKWELL: So, any of the aid that -- I mean, we know that $800 million more of military, the weapons aid is coming from the U.S. Europe has offered support as well.

Does any of that come to you, come to the International Legion?

NANCE: Well, of course, all the weapons are distributed equally throughout the Ukrainian armed forces or in the areas where they have the highest need.

Yes, we have received some excellent support, particularly in the type of weapons that we have. Most of the Ukrainian Army in the territorial units carry A.K.-47s.

We have more advanced Western weapons, principally because the people who are in the legion are foreigners who have served in other armed forces, using NATO standard weapons.

And Ukraine itself was transitioning to NATO standard weapons when this war started.

So, you know, there's always something more that you can use. But the Ukrainian army is allocating materials that they have where they need it.

And there's a desperate fight going on right now in the eastern part of the country, and that's where these materials are going.

BLACKWELL: How long do you plan to stay?

NANCE: Well, right now, I'm contracted to stay until the end of the state of emergency in this country.

And let me tell you, it's important that we come here. It's important that Americans who believe in this nation and its democratic order not collapse to a totalitarian state. We're not even fighting an army. We're fighting a hoard of men who are

mass murdering civilians. Armies don't do that.

I spent time in -- you know, I spent 20 years in the U.S. armed forces. We just don't do that.

These people don't care. They are given orders to do these things, and they seem to revel in it. The only way to stop it is to defeat them in combat. And Ukraine will win.

BLACKWELL: Malcolm Nance, thank you so much for being with me. Again, you said that you watched enough, you saw enough, you got up and did something, something a lot of people would not do.

I thank you for your time, sir.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: There's a new report that reveals four in 10 Americans currently live in places with unhealthy levels of air pollution. I'll ask the White House's national climate advisor about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:51:31]

BLACKWELL: Just in time for Earth Day, a sobering report from the American Lung Association reveals a sharp increase in air pollution over the past five years.

With the U.S. recording more unhealthy -- I should say, very unhealthy and hazardous air quality days than ever before.

Joining us now is White House national climate adviser and former head of the EPA, Gina McCarthy.

Welcome back to the show.

Let me start with this report on Earth Day. In 2018 to 2020, more very unhealthy hazardous air days than before.

There were few people on the roads in 2020. Why is this happening now?

GINA MCCARTHY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL CLIMATE ADVISER & FORMER EPA DIRECTOR: Well, I think what you're seeing in 2020 is a number of things. We've had an administration that did a substantial amount of rollbacks of very important environmental protections prior to President Biden coming in. Those are being restored.

We also have had significant wildfires, as you know, and those are very challenging and will result in excess air quality problems. Not just in the Western part of the country but that smoke travels all across the Midwest and, in some cases, to the east. So we have challenges there.

We also are learning more and more about what constitutes bad air. We're following the science, looking at it.

We're always going to give the American public our best estimate at what the science says and work hard to clean the air.

We've made tremendous progress over the past 30, 50, even 10 years. And we expect to continue with that progress to moving forward.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of working hard to clean the air, President Biden went to Iowa to announce allowing higher ethanol gasoline to try to bring down the price of gas. We've seen the increase.

Environmentalists are outraged by that. There was a study that came out that showed higher ethanol gas is worse for greenhouse gases than gasoline itself.

What do you tell those environmentalists who say this is shortsighted?

MCCARTHY: I think what the president is doing is taking care of hopefully a short emergency we're facing as a result of Putin's war.

Look, climate change actions have been part of the forefront of this initiative in this president's administration. He's taken unprecedented steps forward.

That doesn't mean we can ignore the emergency challenge that our families are facing on gasoline prices. But that is a time-limited challenge.

And we are also moving forward to make sure that, as that challenge resolves, we can make sure to have in place the kind of strategic efforts and actions that are necessary to deliver on the promise of climate change.

Because, as the president has made clear, every time he's made any announcement that the only path forward for energy security for the United States or anywhere is the shift to clean energy.

And he's made tremendous progress. Just look at what we've done with the automakers and the autoworkers, getting them to align on electric vehicles.

Look what we're doing on offshore wind. Solar wind and batteries were the highest ever last year. And we know we have 58 million homes now that are operating with clean energy.

[14:55:07]

So we are making progress but have a far way to go. And we need Congress to step up. We have more work we need to get done --

BLACKWELL: Let's go there. Let's go there.

MCCARTHY: -- with tax credits and incentives.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about Congress and moving forward. When the Build Back Better bill died, or actually didn't move forward

-- it was never put up for a vote -- the party said that it would potentially go an incremental path, maybe here, smaller chunks of it.

Is that dead? Are any of the climate policies that were proposed as part of the legislation moving forward? It looks unlikely as we move closer to the midterms.

MCCARTHY: Well, let me just reassure everybody that I think the same questions were raised about the bipartisan infrastructure law the president designed. And he got that over the finish line.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes, but there was continuing negotiation on that, Ms. McCarthy.

MCCARTHY: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Are there even talks with Joe Manchin about this?

MCCARTHY: There are quiet discussions ongoing.

And you're absolutely right, we need to make sure that, out of any package that moves forward -- and we fully expect one to move -- we need to get one that are important in our opinion for the American families to cut their costs and to move to clean energy.

There are things that Joe Manchin wants, too, Senator Manchin. You know he's interested in more investments in certain areas.

So we'll keep working through those. And have every intention to keep pushing Congress.

Because these are not just little things we need to add on. These are substantive efforts to actually make sure that we can grow jobs in this country and manufacturing and clean energy.

BLACKWELL: All right.

MCCARTHY: That we can move forward with solar and wind. And that's going to be important to American families and their pocketbooks.

BLACKWELL: Gina McCarthy, thank you as always.

The Justice Department is appealing to bring masks back to public transportation after the CDC determined that face coverings are still needed. We'll talk about the future of a federal mask mandate.

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