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Russian Forces Tighten Strange Hold On Mariupol; U.S.: Russia Adds 17 Tactical Units In Past Week; World War II Soviet Victory Flags Appearing In Ukraine; Ukraine Hoping To Negotiate Mariupol Evacuation; Ukraine Air Force Gains 50 Planes Using U.S. Parts; U.S. Justice Department Appeals Mask Mandate Ruling; Shanghai Reports 18,000+ New Cases, 8 New Deaths; Sanctioned Oligarch Slams Insane War In Ukraine. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired April 21, 2022 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:00]
JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm John Vause, live in Lviv, Ukraine.
To the South and to the East city of Mariupol is on the brink. Fighters in that port city who held up a Russian assault for weeks, so they now they have-- they may now have just days or hours left.
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And I'm Rosemary Church, live at CNN Headquarters in Atlanta.
U.K. Prime Minister, Boris Johnson has apologized twice in two days for party gate. Today MPs debate whether he misled them and what to do about it.
VAUSE: It is 9:00 a.m. here in Ukraine where Russian forces are tightening their stranglehold on the port city of Mariupol. A Ukrainian marine commander says the city is under constant bombardment. As many as thousand civilians, and the last remaining Ukrainian soldiers are holed up in a steel factory with vital supplies running low.
Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister reports evacuations on Wednesday did not work as planned. They will try again in the coming hours. President Vladimir Zelenskyy says up to 120,000 civilians are trapped in Mariupol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): We don't know when we can unblock Mariupol. And I say this openly that all the boys in Mariupol want our victory. They want a free city. None of them are going to surrender to the enemy. This is their internal feeling. This is what they are. First, it involves serious and heavy weapons. At the moment we don't have enough of these weapons to free Mariupol. The second path is diplomatic. So far, Russia hasn't agreed to this. (END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Well, taking Mariupol is part of Russia's plan to control the eastern part of Ukraine, the Donbas region. A U.S. defense official tells CNN, Moscow has now added 17 battalion tactical groups in Ukraine over the past week. The military governor and Luhansk crew reports Russian troops control 80 percent of territory there as they destroy everything in their path.
And images circulating on social media show Russian forces have taken Central Hromivka, and then the nearby village of Crimea.
Meantime, World War II Soviet victory flags appearing across occupied parts of Ukraine ahead of Russia's May 9th Victory Day celebrations. Analyst say it's likely Russia wants to report a major progress in this invasion by that date, a celebration for Vladimir Putin.
Two senior Ukraine negotiated say they're prepared to travel to Mariupol to secure the evacuation of civilians and soldiers. The U.S. State Department official tells CNN, NATO allies could also be part of that process as well. More details now from CNN's Matt Rivers.
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Azovstal steel plant housing Mariupol's last line of defense. If the defenders here fall, so goes the city. A few days ago, George Coparajvili (ph) says he was right in the heart of the fight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honestly, I'll tell you I've never seen such a brutal devastating war. Because Russians are just trying to execute the civilians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS: He spoke to us via video chat from an undisclosed location. Severely injured during the fighting, he says he was smuggled out to recover. He is a Georgian National and a commander in the Azov Battalion, one of the few remaining units left defending the city.
He says he was among the soldiers fighting the Russians while at the same time taking care of hundreds of civilians sheltering in the area. Some of which reportedly seen here in video CNN can't verify posted on the Ukrainian government's social media.
So, how long do you think your group can take care of all of those people and yourself?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's hard to answer. That's hard to answer for me. Time is short, that's all I can say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS: Tens of thousands of citizens in besieged Mariupol still need to be evacuated. On Wednesday, a slight glimmer of hope. A humanitarian corridor agreed to by both sides where civilians could evacuate Mariupol heading to Manhush, then Berdyansk, and then onward. Eventually to the Ukrainian held city of Zaporizhia. The city's mayor urging people to use it.
He said, "Dear people of Mariupol during these long and incredibly difficult days you survived in inhuman conditions. You may have heard different things, but I want you to know the main thing, they are waiting for you in Zaporizhia. It's safe there."
Video from Mariupol City Council shows buses lined up ready to take those who wanted to leave. It's unclear how many got on, but a regional official says fewer people left that he hoped.
For many leaving is a difficult choice. It requires trusting that the Russian military will not harm those trying to leave. And yet, this is the same military that has spent the entire war systematically targeting civilians across the country.
[02:05:04]
RIVERS: And yet, the city has become unlivable. For the military units still resisting Coparajvili says they're caring for soldiers and civilians, sometimes with the same injuries due to Russian shelling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a triage. Child or soldier. And I've seen a lot of times a soldier saying, "Go ahead, take a child. It's a priority."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS: A commander inside the steel plant has urged the international community to set up an evacuation route using a third party, another country that might be able to facilitate to transfer of soldiers and civilians to safety. If that doesn't happen, Coparajvili says Russia will continue the bombardment. And then we'll end only one way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will nobody left in this area. They will be dead, all the children. I'm not talking about the soldiers, but the civilians will be eliminated and it will be on us, the civilized world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS: Matt Rivers, CNN, Lviv, Ukraine.
VAUSE: Well, until now, the U.S. and NATO allies have not sent fighter jets to Ukraine, despite the president here asking for those planes. The reasons why is that, the U.S. believes it would be seen as a provocation to Russia. But aircraft parts, that's another story.
The U.S. says it sent enough parts to Ukraine to get 20 more fighter jets into the sky. Now, these jets along with surface to air missiles and anti-aircraft missiles have kept Russia from establishing air superiority. There's also word, the U.S. will send yet another aid package worth $800 million. U.S. President, Joe Biden says it's all part of America's pledge to help the people of Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I knew they were tough and proud. But I tell you, I'm tougher and more proud than I thought. I'm amazed what they're doing for help in terms of providing device and weapons along with the rest of NATO.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: So with Russia refocusing efforts on the disputed part of Eastern Ukraine. Ukraine's military has held off Russian advances so far, but U.S. defense officials are warning of a much larger assault to come.
We'll see a lot more on this. Now, we're joined by Colonel Andrew Milburn. He's a retired Special Operations Commander for the U.S. Marine Corps, and he set up a training center here in Ukraine to help Ukrainian troops get ready for war.
Colonel, thank you for being with us, sir. In the past few months alone, since this fighting began, the U.S. has shipped close to I think $4 billion in weapons to Ukraine. That's more than the entire annual defense budget for Hungary, The Slovak Republic, Lithuania, Latvia, I mean that list goes on. Is anyone asking if these weapons are actually reaching the soldiers on the front line? What's been your experience?
COL. ANDREW MILBURN, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, THE MOZART GROUP: Well, John, first of all, good morning. Hello to all of your listeners. And as you may have seen, you know, in previous interviews, I did try and explain why this stuff is not reaching the frontline. Clearly, it is not. And, you know, anyone who says it is, I challenged them to go up, and we'll gladly accompany any correspondent to a frontline unit. And, you know, show them that it's not the case.
And it's not. Here, I want to emphasize something very quickly, though, John, this is not because of any corruption here in Ukraine. It's not because people are doing bad things or stealing this stuff. It upsets me when I hear rumors like that. It's simply because the nature of, you know, of any logistics supply chain, if you don't have full visibility and control as the U.S. does not.
Once it crosses the border, then there's no one who is motivated to hurry things along the way or even knows where it is. The United States loses what we call In-Transit visibility of this stuff. But look, John, I-- I've talked enough about the problem. I-- there is a solution, you know, there are groups. Well, there is at least one group, the Mozart Group, of which I'm the founder.
We've got, you know, over 100 volunteers, all we've been carefully invited former U.K., U.S. handful of Australians, and others former special operators. We're not here as (INAUDIBLE) we're here to help expedite problems work, solve problems like this, expedite the logistics items critically needed items into the hands of frontline units.
Not only that, I just listened to your story about Mariupol's breaking all of our hearts, too. But we're prepared to do something about it. We have evacuation teams ready. In fact, we're doing a wreck aid to some sub-reacher (ph) tomorrow, and prepared the-- once this humanitarian corridor if it is established and Ukrainian military MOD requested us to do so to move forward to escort and enable civilians to escape from the city.
We're just waiting for the call, you know, we are ready, we have good relations with Ukraine Soft Special Operations Forces and with MOD. So I-- in any view at least in a--
VAUSE: So I just want to--
MILBURN: -- in a position to help us, I urge them to direct any resources they have our way.
[02:10:06]
MILBURN: But we don't need any additional resources right now in order to help with this evacuation.
VAUSE: So you will only act if asked by the Ukrainian authorities?
MILBURN: Yes. Absolutely. Because otherwise, we run the risk of just of adding more problems to the situation. One thing Ukrainian authorities do not need are units running back and forth across the front lines. You know, there's already enough problems with identification, friend or foe you can imagine Ukrainians and the Russians using much of the same equipment.
They don't need third party nationals messing things up. However, given the go ahead, we don't need a lot of-- we don't need assistance from Ukrainian military aside from just identification and coordination. We're prepared to push and assist on-- in our own small way with enabling evacuation down the safe corridors.
VAUSE: We've heard a lot from President Zelenskyy making his own case (ph)--
MILBURN: Oh, by the way--
VAUSE: -- for increased supplies. Sorry. Go on.
MILBURN: Yes, just safe corridors is a very relative term, as you've heard. The Russians really--
VAUSE: Yes.
MILBURN: -- have no respect for these things. But nevertheless, it's a lower level of-- slightly lower level of risk than running through the, you know, the blockade, which would frankly, be suicide or whatever else out right now.
VAUSE: But, you know, these humanitarian corridors, as promised by the Russians out of Mariupol has actually worked out as advertised. But explained by Zelenkskyy who's made this compelling case for increased weapons supplies, I'm just wondering if-- from what you know, the amount of weapons which are already in country, if those supply lines could be secured, if these logistics could be worked out, that alone would make a huge difference in this fight, right?
MILBURN: Yes. Yes. John, the solution is quite simple. You know, we just-- for instance, my organization just needs authorization go down and start freeing this stuff from warehouses, putting out, you know, (INAUDIBLE) to find out where it always. We already have a good idea.
We just need the U.S. government to authorize us being able to deliver it to frontline units. But because we don't have visibility, the U.S. government is not coordinating directly with my organization. I think they-- I think they're quite cagey, this constant fear of escalation has caused paralysis up and down the U.S. chain of command. You know, it's sad for me as a former--
VAUSE: You see that's why--
MILBURN: Oh, can I just finish? It's really sad for me as a former Marine.
VAUSE: Yes. So, please.
MILBURN: for 31 years in the military, and to see my own country, paralyze in this way. We keep backing down, keep backpedaling, and I think what the administration does not realize is, it doesn't matter how big a military you have, unless you have the resolve to use it at times for the good.
By the way, with minimum risk, then it's useless. And every time we backpedal, Putin fills the gap. I mean, how many more lessons do we need? And yet, when people stand up for it to him, he, himself backpedals. All right, remember, when he-- when the Turks shut down a Russian aircraft 2015, Putin wanted to talk.
Remember, one, two, 300 of his mercenaries were killed in Syria, I believe it's 2017 or 2018. Again, he backpedaled and back down. Why do we not learn from this? We've got escalated for the--
VAUSE: But why, you know, in the sense when it escalation-- when it comes to escalation, how much worse can it get than raping women and children, and then burning them alive?
MILBURN: Yes. Yes. It's like-- I mean, it-- I, you know, I don't want to get too emotional about this. But those of us who used to wear the uniform of the United States, a lot of us deeply disgusted by our country's foreign policy, from the retreat from Afghanistan, to what is happening here. We seem to be running away from our allies.
It really is time to show some resolve, to show some backbone. It doesn't matter what the President says about admiring Ukrainian people from afar. I feel nothing, but frankly, shame and contempt for our policies here. No fly-zone. You know, what, we've got the largest most powerful air force in the world. We've got the most sophisticated aerial (ph) systems.
We could put down a no-fly-zone in a heartbeat here. And yes, we don't have to put it over Russian occupied territory if they're so scared of escalation. But why don't we put it over the Ukrainian part of their own sovereign territory? Are we that scared?
VAUSE: Yes.
MILBURN: It's-- I mean, and what are our NATO allies thinking?
VAUSE: It does.
MILBURN: You know, at the back of their mind same as we thinking--
VAUSE: Yes.
MILBURN: -- you know, we're saying, hey, if it comes to NATO, we're actually going to do something. But you've got-- you can't blame them if they're thinking the back of their minds. Yes, is that really the case? Why isn't the President visited Kyiv? You know, world leaders have already known, local leaders, even Boris Johnson is failing to care. Why is the President not here if he cares much about it? Is there anything more important happening in the world?
[02:25:05]
VAUSE: Well, colonel, a lot of questions, a lot of issues raised there. And, you know, there are reasons why Joe Biden has been here security a whole of stuff. But you raised some very important points there. And it does-- it raised your question as far as the U.S. embassy would go.
MILBURN: Can I finish what--
VAUSE: When lives our lives.
MILBURN: John, just really quick.
VAUSE: We are pretty much out of time. If you can make a quick, sure. Yes.
MILBURN: Yes. OK. themozartgroup.com. Please look at what we're doing.
VAUSE: OK.
MILBURN: When we're prepared to assist with these evacuation civilians. It's a no lose situation.
VAUSE: Yes.
MILBURN: the U.S. government, Western Community. Thank you, John. Thank you.
VAUSE: Thank you, colonel. Appreciate it. Thank you sir.
So we have this just in to CNN, Ukraine's Deputy Prime Minister, it says four evacuation buses did actually manage to leave Mariupol on Wednesday through that humanitarian corridor. Officials earlier said a large evacuation effort from the besieged city did not go as planned.
They'd hoped to evacuate a lot more women children, and the elderly. Those who were evacuated Wednesday are expected in Zaporizhia and South Eastern Ukraine anytime now.
But when we come back. The legal battle just is not over yet. The U.S. Justice Department is appealing a judge's decision to strike down mask mandates on public transportation. The reasoning behind that move is ahead.
Also mass testing, endless lock downs, and angry residents. China's zero-COVID policy isn't working in Shanghai. My colleague Kim Brunhuber will have more on that, and a live report from Shanghai in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:20:28]
CHURCH: Welcome back everyone. Well, the U.S. Justice Department is appealing Monday's court ruling striking down the mask mandate for public transportation. Airlines and transit agencies moved quickly to make masks optional. The White House waited for guidance from the Centers for Disease Control before taking any action.
The CDC is own map shows a low risk of COVID across the country. So there may be confusion as to why the agency is pushing to keep a mandate that was going to expire in two weeks anyway. White House Press Secretary, Jen Psaki explains the reasoning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That's important for two reasons. One, because we think it's entirely reasonable. As this-- the Department of Justice for the CDC, the health, and data experts, health experts, most importantly, and our administration to be able to have that time to evaluate. But also because they want to fight to ensure the CDC has-- the authority and ability to put in mandates in the future remains intact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin says the appeal only adds to the existing confusion about mask mandates.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think the technical legal term for what's going on here is a mess. There are so many contradictory and puzzling things going on here. The-- to add yet more, you know, the Biden administration is appealing this order, but they're not asking for a stay. So there is no way this case will be resolved before May 3rd. CHURCH: A new poll finds a majority of U.S. adults favor mask requirements for people traveling on planes, trains and public transit. Only 24 percent oppose the mandate and 20 percent were neutral on the issue. The poll was conducted just before the judges struck down the mandate.
Shanghai reported more than 18,000 new COVID cases Wednesday, and eight new deaths, with officials claiming all those who died had serious underlying health conditions. But anger and frustration are growing among those still under lockdown with some residents refusing to get PCR testing.
And CNN's Kristie Lu stout joins us now live from Hong Kong with more on this. Good to see you Kristie. So with cases falling, is the COVID tide turning in Shanghai or is something else going on here?
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Rosemary Shanghai appears to be turning the corner earlier today. Shanghai government authorities announced 18,500 new cases of COVID-19, that's down from the previous day. Shanghai authorities also announced two districts in the city have achieved zero cases of COVID at a community level.
And there are reports that Tesla has reopened its production facility in Shanghai after it was suspended for over three weeks. That being said, Shanghai is not giving up on zero-COVID. Millions of residents are still under lockdown, and a fresh new mandatory mass testing campaign is underway. And there is significant pushback.
We've been monitoring Chinese social media to see that push back. And I want to share a couple of examples of that with you. The first example is this. You see a WeChat conversation. This involves neighbors, residents of a building in Shanghai, when discussing the topic whether they're willing to go outside to do a government mandated PCR test they all have the same response. They say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) they say they're not willing, they're not willing to do so.
This additional example that I'm going to share with you is of notices that people are posting outside the doors of their homes. And in these notices, they're basically saying look, I've already tested with a RAT tests, a rapid antigen test at home. I don't need to do a government mandated PCR test outside.
Look, residents in Shanghai they are fed up, they're angry, they're frustrated over inadequate access to food, and adequate access to medical care over the third of family separations, which have been reported involving children, infants, as well as the elderly, testing positive for COVID and then being taken away to quarantine. They're also fed up with the uncertainty after weeks and weeks of lockdown. There is still no end in sight. Rosemary.
CHURCH: Absolutely. And Kristie in Hong Kong, where you are, what is the latest on the flight bans there with more carriers being hit with suspensions after it contain the virus?
LU STOUT: Yes. Rosary, the list of temporarily banned airlines here in Hong Kong just gets longer and longer, you know, COVID-19 cases may be falling here, but it is still extremely difficult to fly in and out of the city.
[02:25:05]
LU STOUT: A Hong Kong government authorities have temporarily banned for seven days at a growing lists of airlines for carrying infected passengers or passengers who have inadequate health documentation. Let's bring up the updated list of suspended Airlines for you. And in this list, you will see a lot of familiar names. You will see Singapore Airlines, you'll see Cathay, Qatar, Malaysia Airlines. Two new names add to the list from yesterday, Thai Airways and Emirates.
And, you know, there's a lot of frustration here in Hong Kong and those who want to travel from overseas to Hong Kong about this. This is the third year of the pandemic. And still Rosemary, Hong Kong remains virtually sealed off, locked away from the rest of the world. Back to you.
CHURCH: Just amazing. Kristie Lu Stout joining us, live from Hong Kong. Many thanks.
LU STOUT: Got it.
CHURCH: A billionaire Russian who founded one of that country's biggest digital banks is lashing out at what he calls the insane war in Ukraine after he was slapped with international sanctions. A live report from London, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:30:00]
VAUSE: Well, the Russian retreat from areas around the Ukrainian capital continues to reveal evidence of atrocities suffered by civilians. And Ukrainians who survived the onslaught, so far, are now speaking out about what they endured. CNN's Phil Black has this story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Andrey Bychenko says his life will be forever split in two, before and after the day the Russians came. He remembers the skies over his home in Hostomel near Kyiv, suddenly swarming with dozens of attack helicopters.
He says they flew in a low formation, like they were on parade. And soon after, he says, Russian ground forces approached his home.
This is where he says they opened fire from a distance. An explosive round landed close by fracturing his leg, shrapnel piercing much of his body. But Andrey says he was lucky He got to a hospital before the Russians worked out. He used to fight pro-Moscow separatists in Eastern Ukraine. He says many veterans from the East were deliberately killed during the occupation.
If I had not been wounded, I would have been shot, too, he says. Basily Hilkov (ph) also survived Russia's occupation, but at great cost. Basily was shot by the Russian members and firepower that rolled into Bogdanovka, a tiny village Northeast of the capital.
So many tanks passed, he said. So much ammunition. Every house had 20 soldiers occupying it, including the house where he, his neighbors, and family were sheltering. They stayed in the basement. The Russians moved in above.
One night, Basily says, four drunk soldiers pushed open the basement door and screamed, everyone out by the count of 10 or all will be killed. Basily says, women were screaming, children crying, and as he was the last one through the door, he was blasted from behind with a shotgun. He says nothing was left of the leg. All bones destroyed. Just a puddle of blood in minutes. He says two days later some Russian soldiers helped him to get to the hospital. He still thinks they're beasts, not people.
The Russian invasion, of areas around Kyiv, violently interrupted and ended many people's lives. And some would somehow survive brutal, intimating encounters. Leaving them forever changed. Phil black, CNN, Bogdanovka, Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Well, tensions boiled over Wednesday as finance ministers from the World's 20 largest economies met in Washington. The Canadian minister shared a photo of Western officials, who walked out of a session when the Russian delegate started to speak. U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen took part in that boycott. She said there can be no business as usual for Russia in the global economy. This comes as one of the sanctioned Russian oligarchs is speaking out against the war calling it insane. Oleg Tinkov, a billionaire founder of a big Russian digital bank, says the West showed off with Vladimir Putin a way out.
CNN's Clare Sebastian following all this for us from London. That walk out of, that G20 meeting by the U.S. and other delegates there, that is a powerful symbol and also an indication of, you know, what is in store for Russia when it comes to these meetings.
CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, increasing isolation, it's immense, according to the White House Press Secretary. Russia's pariah status on the global stage. It was expected, Janet Yellen has said she would not be attending sessions that included Russia at the G20, but of course she was joined by others. I will say though, this isn't total isolation from Russia. Still enjoyed some support from the likes of China and India within the G20. So, we're unlikely to see enough consensus within that group that would, for example, be able to eject Russia.
So, for the moment, I think, you're looking at this division and this sort of symbolic act that are designed to show Russia that it's not welcome according to some nations.
[02:35:00] But combine that with what we heard from Oleg Tinkov, who's the Russian oligarch, former oligarch, perhaps to be more accurate. Has lost a lot of his wealth since the start of the war. He owns a digital bank and has had a chain of (INAUDIBLE). It's really striking in his statement on Instagram because he overtly criticizes the Russian army. He says, how could the army be any good when everything else in the country is mired in nepotism, sick of fancy and civility. And he does, which we really haven't heard much from any of the Russian oligarchs who have spoken out. He does mention Vladimir Putin in his post. Asking the West to give him a clear exit to save his face and stop this massacre. He asked them to show more humanity and be more rational.
So, that was interesting. It's unlikely though to move the needle. I think it's worth remembering that there are very few people in Russia who hold any sway over Vladimir Putin. It was interesting recently that the exiled former Russian oligarch, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, said to CNN's Fareed Zakaria, that Russia is not an oligarchy. It's a dictatorship. So, significant but very unlikely to provide much of deterrent.
VAUSE: Yes, also symbolism, Clare, Wimbledon are banning Russian players and players from Belarus as well. A lot of moves to isolate Russia, increasingly. Clare, thanks for the update there. Clare Sebastian live -- reporting live for us in London.
When we come back, the British prime minister is getting a bit of a break. Rosemary Church will have details on the festering Partygate scandal and the push to punish him which is moving forward.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[02:40:00]
CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone. Well, a short time ago, the British prime minister arrived in Western India for two days of talks. The big focus on that visit, jobs and Ukraine. But back home, many lawmakers and voters are not ready to forgive and forget the Partygate scandal. In the coming hours, there could be a vote on whether to investigate claims that Boris Johnson misled parliament about illegal lockdown parties at government buildings.
The prime minister apologized twice in two days for violating COVID rules. But he's rejected calls to resign and stopped short of admitting he broke the law. He's now vowing to, "Get on with the job."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We are going to get on with delivering to the British people, making sure -- making sure that we power out of the problems that COVID has left us. More people in work than there were before the pandemic, Mr. Speaker, fixing our energy problems and leading the world in standing up to the aggression of Vladimir Putin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: John Rentoul is the chief political commentator for "The Independent" and he joins me now from London. Good to have you with us.
JOHN RENTOUL, CHIEF POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, THE INDEPENDENT: Hello, Rosemary.
CHURCH: So, despite all Boris Johnson's efforts to put this Partygate scandal behind him, it isn't going away. But the government's trying to delay a vote on an investigation into whether the prime minister misled MPs about his lockdown parties. How long can he hold off a vote and will his defense of unknowingly misleading parliament work out for him?
RENTOUL: Well, he's not trying to delay the vote. There will be a vote today in the House of Commons. But he's trying to delay the referral of his conduct to the privileges committee, which is the committee of MPs. He doesn't want them to be investigating this question of whether he misled the House of Commons. So, he's put down an amendment, which he's asking MPs to vote for, which will delay any referral to that committee, until after the police have completed their inquiries. Now, of course, you know, by deferring it, by putting it off to another day, he's hoping things will have moved on by then.
CHURCH: Yes, ministers insist that a vote should actually wait until the met police have finished their investigations and Civil Servant Sue Gray has published her report. But when this vote does eventually happen, some Conservative MPs have threatened to vote with the opposition or abstain. What does that signal to you as calls grow louder for Boris Johnson to resign? RENTOUL: The danger is Tory MPs abstaining. A lot of them don't want to put their name to a vote in defense of the prime minister because they know that the Labour Party is going to use that. They'll put the -- the Labour Party will put their names on leaflets. Some of this MP voted to block an inquiry into the prime minister's conduct. And they won't want to do that.
Backbench MPs who have nothing to lose, don't want to come to the -- could come to the aid of the prime minister in that way. And so, you know, the government is very worried about the turnout for that vote. Although they got a majority of 77. So, they will win it comfortably anyway.
CHURCH: And on his flight to India for that two-day official visit, Mr. Johnson said, he will fight the next general election, but would not say if there were any circumstances under which he would resign. What does that tell you about where he sees all of this going?
RENTOUL: Well, the prime minister has to say that he'll fight the next general election until they're forced to say otherwise, as Tony Blair was. You know, it's not the end for Boris Johnson yet, at all. He came very close, I think, to losing his job in January. Conservative MPs were very worried that he was a big vote loser for them. They're recovered, somewhat, in the opinion polls since then.
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And the obvious alternative prime minister, Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, his stock has really tumbled, following a disastrous mini budget which he announced last month. And the revelations about his wife being a non-domain, not paying tax on her international income in this country. So, Boris Johnson's got some time. But he's obviously very worried about how long conservative MPs will give him.
CHURCH: And of course, he has said he just wants to get on with the job. But the public's not happy with what he's been doing. And they haven't forgotten about Partygate. But it sounds like you think he can, sort of, work through this and eventually people will forgive and forget.
RENTOUL: I don't know about forgiving and forgetting. But, I mean, you know, the public -- if you ask the public whether a politician should resign, they'll usually say yes. And they usually think that politicians are up to no good.
At the moment, Boris Johnson's stock is low. And the public are really not at all impressed by him. But when it comes to a general election, you're asking people to choose between one prime minister and a different one. And in those circumstances, I think Boris Johnson will do rather better. If, as it -- as the next election approaches, and it -- it's two years away after all and anything can happen in two years. But if, if, as that election approaches, it is obvious that Boris Johnson is going to lose it for the Conservatives. Then I think conservative MPs will do the ruthless thing and replace him. But at the moment, they don't have anybody to replace him with.
CHURCH: All right. We'll see what happens. John Rentoul, joining us from London. Many thanks.
And still to come, a fiery debate in France as the two candidates in Sunday's presidential runoff come face to face, that's next.
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JIM BRALSFORD, SENIOR DIRECTOR, INDUSTRY AND SOLUTIONS, KINAXIS: My name's Jim Bralsford and I lead the Industry and Solutions marketing team for Kinaxis. It's absolutely key that business incorporate sustainability into their business models. Firstly, you've got the corporate objective in being a good global citizen.
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You've also got the need to be reflecting that to your public, to your consumers to show that you are actually being environmentally conscious. And also, as supply chains are more mature and are considering all of these things in a holistic way, it develops a -- sort of a steadiness to their operation. Supply chain sustainability will become a qualifier. It will not necessarily be the winner, but it will become a qualifier enabling you to participate in the competition.
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CHURCH: In the coming hours, France's Far-Right presidential candidate, Marine Le Pen, is expected to hold her final campaign rally ahead of Sunday's runoff election. On Wednesday, Le Pen and President Emmanuel Macron went head-to-head in a TV debate that saw them clashing over a range of issues, including Russia and the economy. CNN's Melissa Bell has the details from Paris.
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT: It was the only debate of a campaign that has seen two very different visions for France pitted against one another. On one hand, that of the incumbent, the centrist, globalist Emmanuel Macron. On the other, that of the Far-Right Nationalist Marine Le Pen. The debate began on questions of domestic concerns, in particular, the cost of living, which has been central to Le Pen's campaign.
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MARINE LE PEN, FAR-RIGHT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (through translator): Here again, I must be the spokesperson of the French people. Because, Mr. Macron, I heard you with your government, you are delighted to have increased French people's purchasing power. But me, I only saw French people who told me about their problems with purchasing power. I only saw French people who told me they can't make it anymore. They can't get by. That they can't make ends meet at the end of the month.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): I am proud that all together, we have made it possible to create 1.2 million pay slips. Because I was looking at your program, your 22 measures, there's not even the word unemployment in it, which is striking.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BELL: The war in Ukraine is another issue that has loomed large in the campaign, so far. And that featured heavily in Wednesday night's debate. With Emmanuel Macron attacking Marine Le Pen, not only on her historic proximity to Vladimir Putin but on her party's loan from a Russian bank back in 2014.
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MACRON (through translator): You still haven't paid back that loan.
LE PEN (through translator): It's quite long, Mr. Macron. Yes, we are a poor party, but this is not shameful.
MACRON (through translator): But I never thought it shameful. But my problem, Mrs. Le Pen, I hope you will recognize, is that all this creates a dependence.
LE PEN (through translator): I have no dependence other than repaying my alone, Mr. Macron.
MACRON (through translator): But your loan was not contracted with just any bank, even for Russia. But with the interests, power, and everyone will be able to verify it. And so, you need to own up to it, that's all. Own up to it, Mrs. Le Pen.
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BELL: From Russia, the candidates moved on to Europe. On one hand, Emmanuel Macron, the pro-European federalist. On the other, Marine Le Pen, who, while she's come back a little bit from more Euro skeptic positions of the last few years, still wants to see Europe reformed in order that it become a much looser alliance of sovereign nations.
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LE PEN (through translator): Let me say to Emmanuel Macron, that there is no European sovereignty, because there are no European people. There is a sovereignty when there are the people. There's a French sovereignty, there's no European sovereignty. And I've understood that you wish to replace French with European sovereignty. You've done it symbolically by replacing the French flag with the European one under the Arc de Triomphe.
MACRON (through translator): Changing a club on your own, by reducing your membership fee. By saying, I choose my rules. Well, either the others follow you because that's Europe. There are 27 of us around the table or you go your own way. And what you described in your program sounds like, going your own way. The second thing you propose is an alliance with Russia, which is amongst your priorities. It's always in your program. It's amazing.
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BELL: In 2017, Marin Le Pen was widely seen to have lost the election on the night of the debate. This time, she'd spent a couple of days preparing. And if the polls have been a widening in favor of Emmanuel Macron, it seems that there is still everything to play for when France goes to the polls on Sunday. And as the debate reminded us, very much at stake. Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
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CHURCH: Actor Johnny Depp return to the stand inside of a junior court in his defamation case against ex-wife Amber Heard. He described their relationship and how it changed, accusing Heard of calling him names and making demeaning comments. Depp also said that an argument between the two in 2015 ended with him seeking medical care.
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JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR: She threw the large bottle and it made contact and shattered everywhere, and then I looked down and realized that the tip of my finger had been severed.
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CHURCH: Depp is suing Heard for $50 million over a 2018 Washington Post op-ed in which she wrote about her experience with domestic abuse. Even though she didn't name him, Depp claimed it cost him film work.
And thank you so much for your company. I'm Rosemary Church. We will go back to John Vause live in Ukraine in just a moment, as CNN's breaking news coverage continues.
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JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: If you are craving red meat but don't want to actually eat it, those imitation burgers might hit the spot. You can find them in grocery stores, restaurants, and even drive-thrus. But are they healthy? Well, meatless burgers do contain protein, vitamins, and minerals. And many times, they are similar to the protein profile of the meat they imitate. They also contain Vitamin B12 and zinc. But beware, these imitation burgers are highly processed and usually contain high levels of sodium and saturated fat.
So, check your labels and eat them in moderation. They're not health food, even if they are tasty and environmentally friendly.
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