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Satellite Images Appear to Show Mass Graves Outside Mariupol; Ukraine Says, No Humanitarian Corridors Today; New Audio Reveals Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) Told Trump He Bore Responsibility for Jan. 6 in the Wake of Capitol Attack. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 22, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN NEWSROOM: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York.

This morning, growing evidence of what some are calling genocide inside Ukraine. These new disturbing satellite images appear to show rows of mass graves in Mariupol. The mayor there saying that this is indeed evidence of war crimes.

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VADYM BOICHENKO, MAYOR OF MARIUPOL, UKRAINE (voice over): We have around 20,000 dead civilian deaths in Mariupol and these were people who were buried by enemy shelling, by enemy bombardment buried under the rubble. And at the moment, we are witnessing the enemy trying to hide the evidence of their crimes using the instrument of mass graves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Around 20,000 dead there, the mayor says.

And we just got these new images out of Mariupol which appear to show pro-Russian troops inside the city. Ukrainian officials say evacuations are going very slowly.

Also this morning, the mayor of Mykolaiv says at least one person is dead amid intensified shelling. Officials are concerned that the Russian military aims to establish full control over Southern Ukraine and perhaps even into disputed territory in neighboring Moldova.

Let's begin this morning with CNN Correspondent Matt Rivers. He is reporting from Lviv, in Western Ukraine. And, Matt, these new satellite images appear to confirm Ukrainian officials' reports of mass graves outside of Mariupol. Walk us through exactly what we're seeing.

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, these images from a satellite company, Maxar, Bianna, are just terrific. And they were taken over the course of the span between mid-March and mid-April. And what the company's analysts said they show is a growing number of graves throughout that time. So, there were no graves and then there were some more and then there were some more and saying up to 200 graves now. And it kind of confirms what everyone's worst fears have been about what is going on in Mariupol.

And I think we need to remember, this isn't happening in a vacuum. We saw what happened when the Russians withdrew from Northern Ukraine. We saw the evidence of war crimes, of atrocities in places like Bucha. We've seen mass graves in the northern part of Ukraine. And you could argue that what's gone on in Mariupol, because it has gone on for longer because Russian troops are still there, it might even be worse if you could possibly qualify it like that.

Basically, if you listen to what the mayor is saying here, he said some 20,000 civilians at least have been killed in the city of Mariupol. And so, in some respects, it's not going to be a surprise if this is just the tip of the iceberg in Mariupol. More graves like this almost assuredly will be found.

Meanwhile, we're keeping an eye on evacuations or the lack thereof out of Mariupol. Tens of thousands of ordinary people there still need to be evacuated. And after two days where a humanitarian corridor was opened, today, there is no humanitarian corridor open, no evacuations under way. And even the evacuations, Bianna, that went on yesterday and the day before, just a handful of people managed to trickle out. We're not talking about thousands or hundreds, we are talking only about dozens of people that have managed to escape.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And we're hearing reports from Ukrainian officials that an evacuation bus coming in from Eastern Ukraine has also been fired upon by Russian troops. We have not confirmed that reporting, but, of course, we'll continue to follow the story.

Matt Rivers, thank you.

Well, this morning, Ukraine has released new audio of purported Russian communications. CNN National Security Correspondent Kylie Atwood is at the State Department with more.

So, Kylie, Ukraine claims Russian armed forces are allegedly referring to orders to kill Ukrainian prisoners of war. What exactly are we hearing?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We haven't gotten a formal response from the U.S. government yet, but these are horrific recordings, if they are indeed what the Ukrainians are saying, these orders that the Russian forces are discussing to kill Ukrainian prisoners of war. We should note that as you guys were discussing earlier, this comes as Russia has continued to carry out this incredibly horrific assault on Ukraine, and just in recent days, we know there have been these mass graves according to these new satellite images that the Russians have begun to dug outside of Mariupol.

[10:05:04]

We saw what happened in Bucha. So, unfortunately, it wouldn't be altogether surprising if these discussions that the Ukrainians have intercepted are actually legitimate.

Now, if these are shared with the U.S. government, it's likely they would be given to the intelligence community for processing, for reporting to verify their authenticity, and, of course, this information would be added to the abundant information that the United States has about Russian forces carrying out war crimes in Ukraine. They have already made that determination, but this would be added to that. Bianna?

GOLODYRGA: These similar scenes to the ones that we saw a few decades ago in Grozny, in Chechnya. As many are saying, this is Russia's military's M.O., unfortunately.

Kylie Atwood, thank you.

Well, the president of the European Council just spoke this morning with Vladimir Putin, saying the two had a blunt and direct call. Charles Michel says that he firmly reiterated the E.U.'s support for Ukraine and strongly urged Putin to immediately allow safe passage for civilians out of Mariupol and other besieged cities.

This conversation happening as Latvia and Estonia's parliaments officially accuse Russia of genocide in Ukraine.

Well, joining me to discuss is Susan Glasser, a CNN Global Affairs Analyst and Staff Writer for The New Yorker. Susan, always, great to see you.

Among the things discussed in this call this morning with Charles Michel was a potential meeting between Vladimir Putin and President Zelenskyy. Putin said that the circumstances and times are not right for a meeting between the two of them. But I am just wondering from your perspective, how do you square the idea of potential cease-fire, meeting between the two, de-escalation, which we all want, with these images that we're seeing out of the country?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes, thank you so much, Bianna.

I don't see this happening anytime realistically in the near future. Let's be blunt, right? It's just not where it's at right now. The Russian military campaign is escalating and, in fact, Putin is under real urgency to prove that his war has not been a total failure. And it's almost inconceivable that President Zelenskyy could even agree to meet with someone who's personally ordered this level of attacks on civilians and crimes against his country.

GOLODYRGA: So, what do you make of this new reporting from a Russian general saying that their ultimate goal is to take all of the Eastern Donbas region, and then further south into Southern Ukraine seizing, really, that important economic port area there. Obviously, we spent so much time focusing on Mariupol, but there further to the west, you have important cities like Odessa and Mykolaiv. And then what clearly caught my attention was bringing up Transnistria, that disputed region in neighboring Moldova, Moldova, not a member of NATO, not protected by the E.U. Do you really envision that Putin now will seek to expand his operation?

GLASSER: Well, in a way, he's actually pivoting to a much more realistic war plan. This, by the way, was the war plan that at the Pentagon here in Washington, I've heard talk about this for years. This was a concern that Putin would seek to potentially expand and consolidate his illegal annexation of the Crimean Peninsula by expanding in exactly this area.

And at the start of this latest invasion of Ukraine, that's what many war experts thought they were going to see is Russia launching exactly this plan, seeking to encircle and cut off Ukrainian forces in the east and to consolidate, essentially, potentially a rump state in the east and south of Ukraine.

And so right now, what it reflects is the failure of Putin's initial, actually more audacious war plan, which was to go straight for the capital of Kyiv. That failed. And so I think what you're seeing is actually the war that people expected to see a few months ago.

GOLODYRGA: Susan, what are you going to be paying closest attention to in terms of western alliance here among NATO allies? We continue to hear from President Biden and administration officials that that is a top priority, that these countries remain unified in their strong approach, whether it's sanctions, whether it's sending in ammunition and weaponry to help Ukraine. Are you concerned at all that the longer this goes on, that we may start to see some fissures there? A lot of attention has been focused not only on the French elections this weekend but also what's happening in Germany.

GLASSER: That's right. I think it's not a question of starting to see fissures but wondering how much more the fissures that already exist will widen in Europe. This is, in a way, what Vladimir Putin has been betting on, the entire time his calculation was that the longer that he could keep fighting, the more that NATO and western allies would tire of it, would inevitably seek to cut their own sort of accommodation with it.

[10:10:13]

And, by the way, the reason that Vladimir Putin thought that is because, for the last 20 years, that has been his experience. And so this is based on his ability to essentially divide and conquer with the Western European allies.

GOLODRYGA: Susan Glasser, always great to have you on and hear your perspective. I appreciate it.

GLASSER: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: And still to come, very few people are making it out of Mariupol, but some are. Up next, we'll talk to someone who spoke to women and children who made it out of that besieged city.

Plus, relieved to be out of the war zone but also anxious about what comes next. What's it like for those fleeing Mariupol when safe passage just isn't guaranteed.

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GOLODRYGA: Despite thousands of people still trapped in the besieged city of Mariupol, Ukrainian officials say there are no operational humanitarian corridors to evacuate civilians today. On Thursday, a convoy of vehicles arrived in the city of Zaporizhzhia, carrying about 80 people from Mariupol and surrounding towns under Russian control.

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OLENA ZAMYSLOVA, EVACUEE FROM MARIUPOL: Ukrainian soldiers visited us. They began to calm us down. They were helping in different ways. They even went searching for my cat during the night when there was shelling. They helped me a lot. I've left the place with little of what I had.

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GOLODRYGA: My next guest, Ukrainian Journalist Tanya Kozyreva who was on the scene when those buses arrived. She joins us today from Dnipro.

Tanya, we spoke with you yesterday as those buses were just pulling in and we wanted to give you time to speak with the evacuees there, about 80 of them, we know, that came from Mariupol. Who did you talk to? What did you learn about their situation?

TANYA KOZYREVA, UKRAINIAN INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Well, we spoke with a couple of families. Some of them made it out not a full family for many reasons. Some of them escaped, were evacuated from Mariupol, leaving behind the closest one. For example, we spoke with one family with husband and son who left behind their mother and wife who decided to stay just because she thinks that she needs to protect her house. And they're very much afraid of looting the house. So, part of the family decided to evacuate, but the other part of the family is still in Mariupol.

We also spoke with the family who spent 58 days in the bomb shelter. And every time -- like we made a couple of attempts to speak to this specific family just because Mikhail (ph) who we tried to spoke to, he was like, every time we were approaching him, he started crying. He couldn't help himself to stop those tears. And he is saying that the picture of the situation in Mariupol is horrible, all the buildings destroyed. There is no electricity, no water, no basic -- like, no basics. It's not living the life in the bomb shelter.

So, sometimes they have to go and get some water to the places which are exposed to the shelling, and every time they wanted to cook something, they wanted to cook something, they needed to go outside to cook the food and they were hearing shelling. They were seeing their neighbors -- dead neighbors. They were seeing the closest one who got wounded, you know?

It's a horrible situation and every time, you know, when you have to interview somebody from Mariupol, it's like a story for a book, to be honest, or the documentary. And it's hard to describe this using the words, what they are going through or they experienced, just because many of them left behind everything. Everything they have, it's just, you know, their clothes and that's it. They have to start the life from the very beginning.

And anywhere in Ukraine is still not safe. And this scenario in Mariupol can be repeated everywhere in Ukraine.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. You just reached a point where you're at a loss for words to just describe the devastation, the horrors that have been unleashed to the people there, the civilians there in Mariupol and just heartbreaking that only 80 got out on the bus knowing that there are tens of thousands remaining.

Tanja Kozyreva, thank you so much for the work you're doing in bringing us their stories.

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KOZYREVA: My pleasure.

GOLODRYGA: Well, Jim Sciutto is live in Lviv, Ukraine. And, Jim, I know you caught up with a woman you met at a refugee center after she fled Bucha with her kids. We talked about how lucky these people are to escape but just the mental, emotional turmoil, the weight that this is carrying on them is just unimaginable.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Well, when we met her on her last trip here last month, Yana and her three children, they looked like so many of the refugees here, fleeing for their lives, carrying all they could in just a couple of backpacks. We knew at the time they were from Bucha. We knew that Bucha had seen fierce fighting. We did not know at the time that Bucha would become the scene of alleged war crimes.

Their escape really just in time, it saved their lives. And since then, they're safe. They're in Spain now. They're some of the lucky ones, but they've been calling back home, tracking down friends, family, teachers and hearing just horrible stories, including about places that were so familiar to them in Bucha.

Have a listen.

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YANA TIAHLA, ESCAPED BUCHA: We can see photos on the internet of places we know, a lake with benches, a park where we used to take walks, and now there's a mass grave there. It's really horrible to see.

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SCIUTTO: And two of their children's teachers, one they know was killed, a kindergarten teacher, and the other one missing, presumed dead. That's what people leave behind, the lucky ones who get to live. We know that's the reality of this war.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. You just think about it, Jim. February 23rd, 22nd, these kids were in class with their teachers and now their parents have to break the news to them that their teachers have been killed in this war.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Thank you so much, Jim, for bringing us that story.

We also have breaking news for you at this hour. We have new audio of the House's top Republican caught speaking out against President Trump in the days following the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. We'll play it for you, coming up.

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GOLODRYGA: Breaking news into CNN, we are now getting more stunning new audio obtained by The New York Times where House Minority Speaker Kevin McCarthy slams former President Trump for his role in the Capitol -- on the attack on the Capitol on January 6th.

Let's listen.

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REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA) (voice over): But let me be very clear to all of you, and I've been very clear to the president, he bears responsibilities for his words and actions, no ifs, ands or buts. I asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened? He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened and he needed to acknowledge that.

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GOLODRYGA: Now, just to be clear, that's McCarthy saying the former president acknowledged he bore responsibility for what happened that day. That audio came on January 11th.

I'm now joined by the reporters who uncovered this story, New York Times National Political Correspondents Alex Burns and Jonathan Martin.

The January 6th investigation has been through interviews now and subpoenas to learn about the president's state of mind. Jonathan, you guys come with the tapes, with the audio. Let's start with you first. How significant is this acknowledgment for that investigation in sorting out exactly what Trump's role was?

JONATHAN MARTIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, first of all, your viewers should know, we've gone inside the highest levels of American politics and this book uncovers a number of conversations that are highly revealing about the mindset of the Republican Party's leaders in the days after January 6th. And this tape captures Kevin McCarthy insisting to his colleagues, his flock, if you will, that President Trump took responsibility for January 6th, something that President Trump, of course, did not do at the time and to this day emphatically rejects any responsibility.

But McCarthy, feeling the heat, is telling his colleagues, yes, President Trump, somebody who is not known for saying he's sorry, by the way, did, in fact, to me, take responsibility. I think that's going to be news to President Trump, wherever he is today.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. Alex, because we have heard Kevin McCarthy say publicly, right, in Congress, the night of January 6th, that the president bears some responsibility. What we haven't heard is him say that the president agreed that he bears responsibility. What we know subsequently happened was that he flew down to Mar-a-Lago and took that infamous picture there standing next to President Trump at the time. How significant will it be for the January 6th investigation now that we have him saying what the president told him?

ALEX BURNS, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Look, bianna, we know for sure that there are members of the January 6th committee who are quite interested in the contents of this book, and for the exact reason that you described here. They're looking for insight into the president's frame of mind of before, during, and after the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

And what you heard in that tape, and what you will hear more of is Kevin McCarthy characterizing the way Trump behaved towards him and the way Trump talked about the attack immediately after it happened. I would be shocked if President Trump were to hear that tape and say, yes, that sounds like me and that sounds like the way I saw the January 6th attack. We'll have to wait and see whether he addresses it himself.

[10:30:02]

But there is no ambiguity what Kevin McCarthy told the hundreds members of the House Republican Conference.