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Senator Orrin Hatch Dies At 88; Secretaries Blinken And Austin Expected To Visit Kyiv; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador To Ukraine William Taylor; Masks On or Off?; Interview With The President Of Association Of Flight Attendants Sara Nelson; Interview With Lead Russia Investigator, Bellingcat, Christo Grozev. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 23, 2022 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: But look at this, a quick-thinking pickup driver manages to back up into the SUV behind, that move created enough extra space for the tractor-trailer to maneuver around the bus and avoid hitting anyone. Amazing. The pickup driver, now being hailed a hero.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH CLICK, DRIVER OF PICKUP TRUCK THAT HELPED PREVENT ACCIDENT: I look up and I realized there was a -- a tractor-trailer heading down my way head-on. I had to do what I had to do to protect myself and the kids. It was one of those moments where you realize things can happen in an instant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The big rig driver was unable to -- was able to stop about a quarter-mile down the road. Later telling police his brakes had gone out.
The next hour CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Breaking news into CNN tonight. Former Utah Senator Orrin Hatch has died. His foundation posted a memorial on Twitter just moments ago writing, the Hatch Foundation sadly announces the passing of Senator Orrin G. Hatch. The former president pro-temp of the United States Senate and the longest-serving senator in Utah history. The longtime Republican Senator celebrated his 88th birthday just last month. CNN's Melanie Zanona is in Washington. And reaction is pouring in right now. Melanie, what are you hearing?
MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITAL HILL REPORTER: Yes, the tributes are already starting to pour in. Orrin Hatch was really a giant on Capitol Hill. He had a career in the Senate that spanned 42 years, which is practically multiple lifetimes on Capitol Hill. During that time, he chaired multiple powerful committees, including the Senate Finance Committee. During that time, he oversaw the passage of the 2017 GOP Tax Law, which was a signature legislative achievement for the Republican Party under Donald Trump's tenure.
He also briefly ran for president. The campaign didn't go anywhere. He ended up sticking around in the senate. And upon his retirement, he actually earned the distinction of having passed the most bills into law than any other senator at the time. And aside from politics, he was also passionate about music. He was a composer. He played multiple instruments. One of his songs was actually featured in a film, "Oceans 12."
And look, really, as I said he was well-liked on Capitol Hill by members on both sides of the aisle. He's really from this bygone era where he was a member of the establishment. He worked across the aisle. He was trying to get along with people, not cause bomb -- throw bombs on Capitol Hill. And he was really there to get the job done and represent the people of Utah. And so, it's too early to say whether there's going to be memorial services here in Washington. But his legacy will be remembered. Pam.
BROWN: Right. And so many knew Orrin Hatch, right? I mean, he was in the senate for 42 years. He passed the most legislation into law than any other senator and he was known for working across the aisle. Of course, he was in the Senate at the same time as now President Joe Biden. And we just found this video right after the 2015 election when there was a ceremonial swearing-in of Orrin Hatch by Joe Biden, then vice-president. So, let's watch this moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: All right. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that you will support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? That you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same? That you take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion? And you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which you are about to enter, so help me God?
SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R), UTAH: No doubt.
BIDEN: He doesn't have any doubt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: that was a ceremonial swearing-in for all of those elected to the senate and re-elected to the senate. But clearly, there was a shared history there between the late -- now late Orrin Hatch and President Joe Biden. So, we're going to wait to hear from the White House. But, you know, this is notable too at a time when there is so much division and friction right now on Melanie -- Melanie, in Capitol Hill. I mean, you know better than most of us because you spend so many days on Capitol Hill. Seeing that divide, and you know, this was a senator who was sort of an old statesman, right? I mean, he reached across the aisle --
ZANONA: Yes.
BROWN: -- bipartisanship, I mean, his foundation is about civic engagement and bipartisanship. And it really is a big loss, especially at a time when this country needs more of that.
ZANONA: Yes, and while it's interesting because when he retired, the one who replaced him was Mitt Romney who has, showing a willingness to buck his own party to reach across the aisle. But, look, when it comes to Orrin Hatch, yes, he worked with Biden in the senate. They served alongside one another. It's no surprise.
You saw that video there of them shaking hands. They clearly had a warm relationship. But Orrin Hatch also had, you know, an interesting relationship with Donald Trump. He spoke out against the Access Hollywood tapes. He spoke out when Trump criticized the judge.
[21:05:00]
But ultimately Orrin Hatch did stand by his endorsement of Donald Trump. So, he had a tenuous relationship, like, a lot of members on his own party with the former president.
BROWN: All right. Melanie, thank you so much. Longtime Utah Senator Orrin Hatch dies at 88. We're going to have more on the story later in the show. Thank you, Melanie.
It's less than two hours before sunrise in Kyiv. And much of Ukraine is about to observe orthodox Easter. But curfews are in place over fears Russia will launch more attacks on the sacred holiday. Earlier today the Ukrainian President announced top U.S. officials will visit Kyiv. He said, just hours from how Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin are due to arrive. Now, the White House and State Department are staying quiet on those comments.
Meantime, in Kherson, lower left on your screen, Ukrainian officials claim a major blow to Russian leadership. They say a strike on a Russian command post has killed at least two more Russian generals.
And new satellite images appear to show a second mass grave site near Mariupol. CNN cannot verify it's true. So, let's go to Ukraine's capital city, that's where we'll find CNN's Matt Rivers in Kyiv.
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela we were expecting President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to make some news at a press conference he gave here in Kyiv on Saturday evening. But I think it's safe to say that everyone was surprised when he announced that a very high-level visit from top U.S. officials was in the works.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS (voiceover): High-profile visitors for the Orthodox Easter Holiday in Ukraine. On Saturday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy told reporters he would meet with top U.S. officials in Kyiv on Sunday.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I don't think this is a big secret. The people from the U.S. are coming to us tomorrow. I shall be meeting with the State Secretary, Mr. Blinken, and the defense secretary. And we will be waiting for the time when the security situation allows for the president to come and talk to us.
RIVERS (voiceover): The U.S. State Department and White House declined to comment on the matter. But Zelensky said talks alone won't help Ukraine.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Why is it important for leaders to come to us? I will give you a pragmatic answer. Because they should not come here with empty hands now. We are waiting not just for presents or cakes. We are expecting specific things and specific weapons.
RIVERS (voiceover): On Friday, a Russian general made clear one of Moscow's goals in Ukraine by saying Russia intends to seize Southern parts of the country to create a land corridor between the Eastern Donbas region and Crimea.
On Saturday, for the first time in weeks, Russia launched major strikes on the Southern Port City of Odessa, which Ukrainian officials say hit a residential building, killing at least eight, including an infant. The Russian Defense Ministry said it was targeting a terminal which housed weapons supplied by the United States and European nations. There was also no letup in the bombardment of the Eastern regions of the country. Kharkiv, once again, came under fire after a barrage of Russian shells fell on the city. And the governor of the Luhansk region urged civilians to leave if they could, describing the situation there as around-the-clock bombing.
The Ukrainian government add new curfews across the country, saying there could be an increase in Russian attacks over the holiday weekend. Fierce battles for the territory that Zelenskyy will no doubt press his potential V.I.P. visitors, Sunday, for more help in trying to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RIVERS (on camera): And during the press conference on Saturday night here in Kyiv, President Zelenskyy actually got visibly emotional two separate times including when he talked about an infant that was alleged to be among those who died during that missile strike on Saturday in the City of Odessa. He said that as a parent, himself, he feels the pain of every parent who's lost a child during this war in Ukraine. Pamela.
BROWN: Matt Rivers, thank you.
And coming up this hour, court confrontation, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene grilled for social media posts advocating violence against democrats.
Also ahead, mask on or mask off? The rules ahead making our heads spin this week especially if you're -- if you work for an airline. International Flight Attendants Association President Sara Nelson joins us next.
And against the odds, a Ukrainian artist's incredible journey to showcase his work at one of the world's most prestigious art fairs. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:10:00]
We are back with our breaking news. Former Utah Senator Orrin Hatch has died. The longtime Republican Senator celebrated his 88th birthday just last month. Utah Governor Spencer Cox tweeted this, this breaks my heart. Abby and I are so grateful for the opportunities we had to spend time with this incredible public servant. He was always so kind and generous with his time and wisdom. Utah mourns with the Hatch family.
Pennsylvania Senator Pat Toomey tweeted, Senator Hatch was a gentleman, statesman, and a proud son of Pennsylvania. My deepest condolences go out to the entire Hatch family and to all who knew and loved him. Iowa Senator Chuck Grassley tweeted, sad to learn of the passing of my friend Orrin Hatch.
I worked closely with Senator Hatch for 40 years on the Judiciary Committee, plus 20 years on Finance Committee. We had a very good relationship -- friendship. He has contributed so much to public policy and to the people of Utah. Barbara and I send our sympathies to his family.
CNN Senior Political Analyst Ron Brownstein joins us now. So, what is your reaction to the news of Orrin Hatch's passing and the legacy he leaves behind, Ron?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST AND SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Well, obviously, I'll start with condolences to his family and friends and those who worked with him over the years. But Orrin Hatch is a really interesting figure, Pam. Because he, in many ways, tracks the evolution of the Republican Party over the last five decades. When he was elected, originally, in 1976 and into the early 1980s, he was considered part of what was then called the new right, which was kind of the vanguard frontier of conservativism.
But by the end of his career, he was in a very different place. I mean, he was known for being able to work with democrats.
[21:15:00]
He worked on the Americans with Disability Act and was critical in working with Ted Kennedy on creating the Children's Health Insurance Program and the second Clinton term. So, in many ways, I think, he's kind of how he positioned relative to the overall party really underscores the kind of changes we have seen in the GOP over the last five decades since the Reagan Era, which is a pretty steady move to the right and toward a more confrontational posture toward the other party.
BROWN: Dana Bash, I want to bring you in. You spent years reporting on Capitol Hill. If you're there, Dana Bash, I believe she's on the phone.
DANA BASH, CNN CO-ANCHOR AND CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, STATE OF THE UNION: Yes.
BROWN: OK. So, Dana, you know, you knew him. You spent years on the Hill reporting on Orrin Hatch. And, you know, this is another old- school Republican.
BASH: Uh-huh. That's exactly --
BROWN: He was not afraid to work across the aisle. That's gone.
BASH: Well, it is -- it is not even close to the way it was certainly when Senator Hatch started. And a lot of what Ron Brownstein just talked about, I witnessed firsthand as I covered Senator Hatch and the likes of Senator Ted Kennedy. They were famously very, very close. Orrin Hatch a very conservative Republican spoke at Senator Kennedy's funeral. He gave one of the eulogies. And that speaks to how things have changed. It's hard to imagine such a thing in today's day and age.
But, you know, you're also -- as I'm talking, you're looking at some images of Senator Hatch's tenure. Back -- and you see actually then- Senator Joe Biden. One of the most vivid memories that I have of Senator Hatch is watching him on the Senate Judiciary Committee overseeing so many incredibly important and some very contentious confirmation hearings.
You saw an image just a short while ago of him with -- with Judge Bork. And that was a confirmation hearing in which -- not his party -- but the other party was very much against him. And things changed dramatically when it came to how Supreme Court nominees are -- are dealt with, how they are scrutinized. And the partisanship started to increase on -- on those nominations.
Senator Hatch was very active both as judiciary chairman when the Republicans had control. And as ranking member on many of those -- those confirmation battles. And just on a personal note, Pamela, he was also just a very pleasant person to cover. You know this.
BROWN: Uh-huh.
BASH: You've covered lots of politicians in your time. Not everybody enjoys talking to reporters. He was always so polite. And also understood the role of those of us walking the halls as reporters in the U.S. Capitol. Understood the importance of not just, you know, just a clip or a sound bite but really engaging on the policy that he was working on. And he will -- his kind is far and few between. And he will be missed. He was just a very -- a very nice man.
BROWN: He really was. I remember when I was a Supreme Court correspondent, I met with him on Capitol Hill. And he could not have been nicer. Just on a personal level.
BASH: Uh-huh.
BROWN: Taking the time to meet with me. And, you know, that stuck with me, that not everyone as you point out, Dana, is like that. Not all politicians are like that. In fact, most of them try to run away from us, right?
BASH: Exactly.
BROWN: But he did not. He was so nice and such a statesman. Had an incredible life of public service. If you would, Ron and Dana, stay with us. We're going to take a deeper look at his life. Senator Hatch retired from the senate in 2019 after 42 years. CNN's Ryan Nobles looks back at his life and legacy.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you solemnly swear --
RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): He was one of the longest-serving Republican Senators in the chamber's history. Orrin Hatch spent more than four decades crafting a legacy of unwavering conservative ideals. The grandson of Mormon settlers, Hatch grew up in a poor mill town outside of Pittsburgh. Tragedy struck his life early when his older brother died in World War II.
SENATOR HATCH: I have a white streak in my hair right here because it just affected me so drastically.
NOBLES (voiceover): In the late 60s hatch moved to Utah where he practiced law and raised a family. In 1976 he won a seat in the U.S. Senate, arguing the incumbent three-term senator had served too long.
[21:20:00]
But that first term turned into a lifelong career. And the senate, he said, into something of a family.
SENATOR HATCH: We may have been partisan from time to time. We may fight each other very hard. We may get irritated with each other. We may scream and shout. But, you know, we look towards the person. We are looking towards somebody who's a member of the family.
NOBLES (voiceover): Over his seven terms in the Senate, Hatch favored corporate tax cuts, limited government, deregulation, and military spending. He consistently voted against gay rights, abortion, and stricter gun laws.
SENATOR HATCH: The second amendment and the right to keep --
NOBLES (voiceover): But despite his ardent conservativism, Hatch occasionally reached across the aisle. Supporting AIDS education, the DREAM Act, and stem cell research. In 2000, he made a bid for the Republican presidential nomination.
SENATOR HATCH: The reason I'm running for president is because I have more experience than all the rest of these candidates for president put together.
NOBLES (voiceover): But he lost to George W. Bush. As the ranking Republican on the senate finance committee, Hatch ushered in the 2017 tax cuts and job act. SENATOR HATCH: This is a great day for America because we've been -- we're going to pass a pro-growth, pro-job, pro-America bill.
NOBLES (voiceover): The bill was lauded as the biggest tax code change in three decades and criticized for favoring corporations and the wealthy.
SENATOR HATCH: I come from the poor people. And I've been here working my whole stinking career for people who don't have a chance. And I really resent anybody saying I'm just doing this for the rich. Give me a break.
NOBLES (voiceover): Critics also blasted him for helping President Trump dismantle the Bears Ears in the Grand Staircase-Escalante national monuments in Utah. A devout Mormon, Hatch was a prolific writer of religious music, composing over 300 songs during his lifetime.
SENATOR HATCH: For over 40 years, I've had the great honor of serving as your senator.
NOBLES (voiceover): Hatch, announced his retirement in 2018 shortly after his hometown newspaper, "The Salt Lake Tribune" called for him to step down.
SENATOR HATCH: I've always been a fighter. But every good fighter knows when to hang up the gloves.
NOBLES (voiceover): Orrin Hatch, a lifelong public servant who chose a path of faith and tradition.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
BROWN: That was from our Ryan Nobles. I want to bring back Dana and Ron for some final thoughts. Ron, first to you.
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know what really struck -- struck me listening to that, and what really underscores what we've both been talking about in terms of his role in the senate, is that he was not really a moderate. He was not Susan Collins. He was not Lisa Murkowski. He was a very conservative Republican, probably more conservative than Mitt Romney. But he believed part of the job description of a senator was trying to find agreements with the other side where it was possible to make progress for the country.
And I think that is what, you know, has significantly eroded, that -- the belief that part of your job, whatever your ideology is to try to find ways to reach an agreement. And he certainly embodied that to good effect at critical points in his career, which I believe was the longest-serving of any Republican senator ever.
BROWN: Dana.
BASH: Yes, we were just looking at images of Senators Hatch and Kennedy hugging. And Senator Hatch wiping a tear from his eye. I mean, that kind of spoke volumes. And Ron is, of course, right. And Ryan's piece was just spot-on when it came to Senator Hatch's legislative record and his legacy which is one of very conservative values, of very conservative ideology. And yet somebody who didn't see bipartisanship as a dirty word.
I also -- I'm so glad that Ryan included the fact that he was a musician and a pianist, and he loved, loved to sing. How he talked about it all the time. And his faith, he was a devout Mormon. And I will just say, on a personal level, he -- underneath his suit he -- his shirt -- you see he's wearing the shirt and tie.
Underneath that shirt, he would wear what's known as am, which is in the Jewish faith you put some -- put that on the door of your house. And he had a mezuza hanging around his neck. And he would -- knowing that I'm Jewish, would show it to me to talk about the Mormons and how the Mormons have an affinity for Jews and certainly have an affinity for Israel.
[21:25:00]
And it's just -- when I'm looking at him, I think about that and those moments and his faith. And the fact that when he -- certainly he represented Utah which has a big Mormon population. But when he was in the United States Senate, especially when he first came, that was a very different kind of senator and of faith to bring into the U.S. Senate.
BROWN: Certainly was. I imagine we're going to be hearing more stories about him as reaction pours in at this hour. Dana Bash, Ron Brownstein, thank you both. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Counting down in Kyiv, just hours from now Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin are expected to arrive in Ukraine. That's according to President Zelenskyy. He made the surprising announcement about that meeting. The White House and State Department aren't talking. Here with me now, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor.
So, what do you think, Ambassador? Given the fact that Zelenskyy put it out there because normally you don't announce it until after the visit has happened. Do you think it's still a good idea for Blinken and Austin to go there?
[21:30:00]
WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE AND RUSSIA AND EUROPE VP, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: So, Pamela, I don't know anything about this trip. But, yes, I think it's a very good idea for them to go. If they do show up at some point. These are the right two people to go there. We know Secretary Blinken has a lot of responsibility for weapons.
His counterpart Foreign Minister Kuleba famously came to Washington, said he had three priorities, weapons, weapons, weapons. And we have Secretary Austin going with him on the military side. So, these are the right people to focus on the top priority for the Ukrainians.
BROWN: These are the highest-ranking U.S. officials to visit, if indeed this visit happens, because again, we haven't heard from the White House, State Department, D.O.D., since Zelenskyy made the announcement. We know the administration wanted to keep that quiet for security reasons. But in announcing this, he also called on President Biden to visit again. Of course, other heads of state of other NATO countries have visited. Why would that be so important? Why is Zelenskyy so adamant about that?
TAYLOR: President Zelenskyy needs the United States. He appreciates the United States. He appreciates the fact that leaders show up to demonstrate support. And so, that's a big deal. He -- I think President Zelenskyy also said, when he was talking about President Biden's visit, that when the security arrangements -- situation allows.
And that's important. He understands the importance of security. He also understands that Secretary Blinken, if he comes, and Secretary Austin, if he comes, represent the United States in a way -- and coming into Kyiv is the most concrete demonstration of support.
BROWN: The British Embassy will soon be opening in Kyiv. I mean, that is worth mentioning. It's reopening there. The U.S., as we know, has been reluctant to take that step, even though several Western countries have. Is the U.S. reluctance, despite Zelenskyy's lobbying, significant?
TAYLOR: I'm not sure there's a reluctance there on the part of the United States. I've --
BROWN: What is it then?
TAYLOR: -- I've talked to the Diplomats and they're eager to get back. They're eager to do their job in Kyiv. Kyiv was where the job needs to be done. It's where you can speak, it's where you listen, it's where you take messages, and where you give messages. That has something -- they want to be back. They want to do it in a secure environment. So, that's what they're taking very careful steps before they can move back.
BROWN: So, I guess reluctance, in the fact, that they're not going back right now. They want to make sure the security situation is OK and so forth. But it's not for a lack of wanting to go back. They want to go there, as you said, to do their work. And to be a diplomat, the best way to do that is to be on the ground.
The United Nations Secretary General will also meet with Zelenskyy but that's on Wednesday, notably, the day after he meets with Russian President Putin in Moscow on Tuesday. Zelenskyy says, it is simply wrong to go to Russia first. What do you think about it?
TAYLOR: President Zelenskyy is exactly right. So, the U.N. Secretary General should first go to Kyiv. Should have this conversation with Ukrainians, with President Zelenskyy. He should get that story. He should get that idea, their demands of the Russians. And then he should go to Moscow. And then he should have this conversation with President Putin.
President Putin needs to hear what the Ukrainians are thinking and saying and need. President Putin does not understand the Ukrainians. And so, the way to get him to understand what's going on in his war that he is -- that he is conducting against Ukraine is to have Secretary Gutierrez go to Kyiv first and then to Moscow.
BROWN: What are you mean by saying I -- he doesn't understand the Ukrainians?
TAYLOR: He doesn't understand the Ukrainians in general. He made a blunder when he sent his military down the Dnieper River down to Kyiv, thought he would take over in three days. He didn't understand that Ukraine was going to fight really hard. He didn't understand that the Ukrainian military was so strong. He didn't understand that the Ukrainian people, the Ukrainian nation were going to resist as they did. He didn't understand President Zelenskyy was so resolute and brave. He thought he would -- he would scatter like others -- other nations that we've seen.
BROWN: And you think he is still now that they've had to switch gears and reassess their battle strategy, you think he still doesn't understand?
TAYLOR: I think he still doesn't understand. He still doesn't understand Ukraine as a nation. That's what he said -- that's what he believed. That's what he is going after. So, yes, he's learned his lesson. He got bloodied trying to take Kyiv. Now he's going around to the East to try it there. We're starting to hear people say that the Ukrainian military can beat the Russian military. They need the weapons. They need the NATO weapons, the U.S. weapons. If they get those weapons in volume, in time, the Ukrainians can win.
BROWN: I remember at the beginning of this war, there was just sort of an outlook by many experts, not you though, you were always an optimist on the Ukrainians.
[21:35:00]
But a lot of people thought it was a foregone conclusion. That Russia, given its military might, was going to be able to get in there and take control of Ukraine. And that is not what we are seeing. Of course, they have been able to take control of some larger -- I mean, some smaller cities and so forth. But the Ukrainians still have the will to fight and are putting up an incredible fight against the Russians.
At the same time, Ukraine is claiming the forced deportation of civilians to Russian-controlled territory. And we have new satellite imagery showing a mass grave near Mariupol. If they are war crimes, what is the likelihood that the International Community can hold Russia accountable? I know that's on so many people's minds.
TAYLOR: It is and it should be. And the answer is, they will be held accountable. But it will take time. But the first thing that has to happen is Ukrainians have to win. If the Russians win it's very hard to hold them accountable. But that's another reason that we should be providing those weapons, flowing those weapons so the Ukrainians can stop the genocide, if that's what it is. So, the Ukrainians can stop these war crimes. That's the way to do it, is the Ukrainians winning on the battlefield.
BROWN: All right, Former Ambassador William Taylor. Thank you very much.
TAYLOR: Thanks, Pam.
BROWN: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. Still ahead, mask on or mask off. The friendly skies got a bit hostile during the pandemic. Will showing our faces make things better or maybe worse? Sara Nelson from the International Flight Attendant Association joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:40:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN. More people get their news from CNN than any other news source.
BROWN: At airports across the country, there is confusion and uncertainty after a federal judge overturned the federal transportation mask mandate this week. Now the Biden Administration is challenging the rule. But in the meantime, a patchwork of different rules is forming from coast to coast. Perhaps no one is affected by all of this more than America's flight attendants. Joining us now is Sara Nelson, she is the president of the Association of Flight Attendants.
Hi, Sara. So, how are flight attendants --
SARA NELSON, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF FLIGHT ATTENDANTS: Hi, Pamela.
BROWN: -- reacting to this news?
NELSON: Well, I'll tell you the immediate reaction was a lot of relief that we no longer need to enforce this with passengers who have been very combative for a long time and has made our lives really hard. And there are some who are not looking forward to going into summer wearing a mask for 14, 15, 16-hour days. But let me be real here too, the masks were put in place in order to stem the spread of this pandemic. It was a health measure. And it was also a public confidence and safety measure. And the general public is generally supportive of the mask mandate in transportation.
So, removing the mask mandate doesn't really necessarily change that conflict onboard because there are people who really want to see that there. And flight attendants are still going to have to manage these interactions between passengers.
BROWN: Right. And I imagine there are some flight attendants who, as you sort of alluded to, might be concerned about the potential health implications that people aren't wearing the mask. I mean, you know, everyone -- NELSON: That's right.
BROWN: -- has their own view in --
NELSON: We have people who are immunocompromised, just like the public, and who have children at home or grandchildren that they don't want to bring that home to, who have not been able to get vaccinated. So, we're hearing from everyone from all sides of this. And what's been unfortunate is that this was made out to be a political issue instead of a public health issue.
So, I want to be very clear, there is a sigh of relief certainly after two years but it doesn't end the conflict. And also, the confusion with all these different policies, it was also very difficult that this came down for some people in the middle of a flight, so that people didn't know what the rules were. They signed up for a certain number of rules when any got on the flight and it changed mid-flight where they cannot walk away.
The public got a real taste of what it's like for flight attendants every day working when we have problems onboard and you can't just pull over or walk away or you have to deal with those issues right there. And that can be very uncomfortable.
BROWN: Let's talk about that a little bit more. Because we have a clip of some of what some flight attendants have had to deal with during this pandemic.
We've seen many cases where adult passengers are acting like petulant children. Flight attendants then had to step in, I mean, they were put in a horrible situation. So, you know, you mentioned the relief that they don't have to enforce these rules anymore. But we know, at this point, we know Delta United and American Airlines are saying they will restore flight privileges on a case-by-case basis for some passengers who are banned for not following mask rules. What do you make of the decision?
NELSON: It's terrible timing if nothing else, Pamela. We're still in the middle of this pandemic. This is an announcement that just came too soon. There is, as you noted, still an appeal on this mask policy. This is still up in the air. And to send the message that someone can come back who had willfully broken the rules puts flight attendants in a very difficult position because we feel like the airlines don't have our backs here.
We're not saying that these people can never come back and fly again. But to be so eager on the trigger to say that some people come back -- can come back, it's really in conflict with what the F.A.A. acting administrator did on the exact same day. He announced that the F.A.A.'s zero tolerance for acting out on a plane, being disruptive, being violent, will not -- not be allowed to go on. Not be allowed to go on without severe consequence. And we really need to be very clear with people. Because a lot of these events have nothing to do with masks at all. It has been about people acting out. Everybody is stressed to the max. And we have had -- we have had to bear the brunt of that. So, there's a lot still here to deal with. And it was not helpful that the airlines made that announcement. We need them to talk with us first. American Airlines has agreed to do that certainly and they are holding off while this appeal is taking place. And we hope that the other airlines will fall in line as well. But we were really not happy with that announcement.
BROWN: And you've asked the other airlines to talk with you. And they haven't responded yet?
NELSON: We're working on that.
BROWN: OK.
[21:45:00]
NELSON: And so, we're continuing to deal with that. But the announcement that got out there was that people are going to be able to come back. Now, some have set it on a case-by-case basis. It's -- my point, really, here is that we have rushed too quickly to make these changes. And we all have to take a moment here, get back to good public policy that's put in place where all stakeholders are involved. Everyone knows what's happening. It's communicated well to all the people who have to enforce it and to the public. And we all get along much better that way.
We -- continuing to operate this way is going to create more and more conflict for the people on the front lines, flight attendance, gate agents, people in retail, everywhere. So, we all just need to get back to good policymaking.
BROWN: In other words, flight attendants were blind-sided when these airlines came out and said, hey, we're going to reinstall some of these people who has -- were banned because of the way they're acting with the masks.
NELSON: That's right.
BROWN: And it is interesting too that this is being appealed by the administration. So, there is that chance that the mask mandate could be put back into effect depending on what the courts rule. So, we'll be following this, Sara Nelson --
NELSON: Well, look, the administration --
BROWN: Go ahead.
NELSON: Thank you. They did not ask for a stay. They asked for an appeal. And this is really about the authority of the health care professionals. And so, we do need that to stay in place. We asked people to put on masks before this pandemic, to stop the spread of communicable disease. We need to get back to some order here. And I think that's what the administration is trying to do.
BROWN: All right. Sara Nelson, thank you so much. We'll be right back.
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[21:50:00]
Russian opposition leader and fierce Putin critic Alexei Navalny has been in jail for more than a year. The story of how he got there after an alleged attempt on his life and after tracking down his own failed assassins is told with the urgency and drama of a spy thriller. Here is a preview of the new CNN Film, "Navalny."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you come to a room of a comatose patient, you starting to just tell him the news. Telling him his story. Alexei, don't worry, you were poisoned, there was a murder attempt. Putin tried to kill you by Novichok. And he opened his, like, blue eyes wide and looked at me and said very clear, [speaking foreign language].
ALEXEI NAVALNY, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION LEADER, LAWYER, AND ANTI-CORRUPTION ACTIVIST: Come on, poisoned? I don't believe it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like, he is back. This is Alexei.
NAVALNY: Putin is supposed to be not so stupid to use this Novichok.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His wording. His expletive. His (INAUDIBLE).
NAVALNY: If you want to kill someone, shoot him. Jesus Christ.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like real Alexei.
NAVALNY: Impossible to believe it. It's kind of stupid, the whole idea of poisoning with a chemical weapon, what the --. This is why -- this is so smart. Because even reasonable people, they refused to believe, like, what? Come on? Poisoned. Seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Kremlin and Russian security services deny any role in Navalny's poisoning. Christo Grozev, joins me now. He is the lead Russian investigator at the independent investigative out at Bellingcat. He worked closely with Navalny and his team on the investigation into the assassination attempt.
So, Christo, this film comes at such a critical moment. Russia's invasion in Ukraine getting more destructive by the day, what can Navalny's story tell us about Vladimir Putin and Russia?
CHRISTO GROZEV, LEAD RUSSIA INVESTIGATOR, BELLINGCAT: Well, what it does tell us, it almost reads like a prequel to the war today. Because it told us that this person has absolutely no ethical boundaries. He has no boundaries that make his actions logical or humane. And in a way when we were investigating that, the poisoning of Alexei Navalny, I -- one of the concerns I had was how can I tell the story to an audience that will find it hard to believe that a leader of a huge nation in the 21st century has a machine to kill his own people. And now it seems like it's all out in the open. It's clear. It's less hard today to believe that. But the two things
are very well connected. They're all connected to the Kremlin regime trying to perpetuate itself and to find any kind of distractions or kill anybody who's a threat to that.
BROWN: What was the most surprising thing you uncovered during your investigation?
GROZEV: Well, I think it was really the scale of this machinery, of this FSB unit that is sponsored by the Russian state that had gone on for four years, tailing Navalny through every place that he went during his presidential campaign, and after that during his political activities. But what really shocked me was that he was not the only one they were tailing. That, in fact, they had tailed and poisoned, killed actually three opposition figures in Russia. And poisoned but hadn't successfully killed many more. So, it's the scale of this machine that was trying to physically eliminate anybody dissenting with Putin who posed a threat to him.
BROWN: What can you tell us about the methods and the strategy that you used to track down Navalny's would-be killers? I mean, that was such an incredible reporting that was done. And I know our Clarissa Ward here at CNN was also a part of this. Tell us more about how you were able to accomplish that.
GROZEV: I think we succeeded in this because we had made several previous investigations on Russian poisoning attempts on other people. One of the breakthroughs that we made was in 2018 when we were able to identify the poisoners of the Skripal's, the double agent, the foreign -- the former Russian spy who was living in the UK and poisoned by two GRU officers.
And in that investigation, we were able -- by using phone records and data -- of travel data obtained from the Russian black market, essentially, to identify these GRU officers. Then we found out that they had received their poison, their Novichok capsules that they used for the poison from a particular military institute in Russia that is disguised as a civilian institute for R&D for different drinks.
[21:55:00]
And we assumed that, in this case, if somebody had poisoned Alexei Navalny, they would have used exactly the same institute, poison produced in the same facility. So, we started tailing the phone calls of the scientists at this institute just before Navalny was poisoned and -- for the period when he was poisoned.
And we found that they communicated with agents of the Russian security services in the days and hours before his poisoning. And then we were able to tail the people these people through travel records to exactly the places where Navalny went and where he was poisoned. So, that was pretty much a closed case then.
BROWN: Wow, incredible work that did you for sure. And I'm so looking forward to seeing this. Christo Grozev, thank you.
GROZEV: Thank you.
BROWN: The new CNN Film "Navalny" premiers tomorrow night at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.
You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Up next, the death of a longtime Utah Senator Orrin Hatch. Former Senator Max Baucus joins us live with his reflections after this quick break.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday evening. And we begin this hour with breaking news.
