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Blinken, Austin Expected in Kyiv; Russia's Invasion of Ukraine; Russian Strikes Kills 8 People, Including Infant; Russian Atrocities Documented by Ukrainian Woman; Examining COVID immunity levels; Former Senator Orrin Hatch Dies at 88; French Presidential Election; Coronavirus Pandemic; Zelenskyy Holds Underground Press Conference. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 23, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Michael Holmes at the CNN center in Atlanta. Thanks for your company.

It is 6:00 a.m. right now in Ukraine, where orthodox Christians are marking Easter Sunday. And there are high expectations, too, over the anticipated arrival of U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin in the coming hours. It would be a powerful symbol of U.S. support for Ukraine, as Russia's war now enters its third month. We'll have much more on that in a moment.

But first, I want to take you to Mariupol, where a planned evacuation of civilians on Saturday, reportedly derailed by the threat of Russian shelling. Ukraine also accusing Russia of rounding up thousands of Mariupol residents and sending them to Russia. Some as far as the other side of the country. The Ukrainian military reports taking out 17 Russian air assets on Saturday. It says anti-aircraft missiles shot down three Russian aircraft. Five cruise missiles. And nine tactical drones. We've been telling you about the dire plight of Ukrainian fighters and civilians sheltering for weeks now inside Mariupol's massive steel factory. Well, video you see there taken by those troops shows them delivering supplies to women and children in the plant's bomb shelter. One boy spoke of his longing to just go outside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to get out of here and see the sun. We've been here for two months now and I want to see the sun. Because they switch the lights on and off here, when they rebuild our houses, we can live in peace. Let Ukraine win this war because Ukraine is our dear home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, on Saturday, Russian missiles slammed into a residential building in the Southern Port of Odessa. The mayor says eight people were killed, including an infant, a few months old. CNN's Matt Rivers has more on the top U.S. officials visiting Kyiv and what Ukraine's leader hopes to get out of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): High-profile visitors for the Orthodox Easter holiday in Ukraine. On Saturday, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy told reporters he would meet with top U.S. officials in Kyiv on Sunday.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I don't think this is a big secret. The people from the U.S. are coming to us tomorrow. I shall be meeting with the State Secretary, Mr. Blinken, and the Defense Secretary. And we will be waiting for the time when the security situation allows for the president to come and talk to us.

RIVERS (voiceover): The U.S. State Department and White House declined to comment on the matter, but Zelenskyy said talks alone won't help Ukraine.

ZELENSKYY (through translator): Why is it important for leaders to come to us? I will give you a pragmatic answer because they should not come here with empty hands now. We are waiting not just for presents or cakes. We are expecting specific things and specific weapons.

RIVERS (voiceover): On Friday, a Russian general made clear one of Moscow's goals in Ukraine by saying Russia intends to seize Southern parts of the country to create a land corridor between the Eastern Donbas region and Crimea.

On Saturday, for the first time in weeks, Russia launched major strikes on the Southern Port City of Odessa, which Ukrainian officials said hit a residential building, killing at least eight, including an infant. The Russian Defense Ministry said it was targeting a terminal which housed weapons supplied by the United States and European Nations.

There was also no letup in the bombardment of the Eastern regions of the country. Kharkiv once again came under fire after a barrage of Russian shells fell on the city. And the governor of the Luhansk region urged civilians to leave if they could, describing the situation there as around-the-clock bombing. The Ukrainian government added new curfews across the country, saying there could be an increase in Russian attacks over the holiday weekend. Fierce battles for territory, that Zelenskyy will no doubt press his potential V.I.P. visitors, Sunday, for more help in trying to win. Matt Rivers, CNN, Kyiv, Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, when those high-profile visitors arrive in Kyiv, they won't be empty-handed. The latest round of military aid from the U.S. valued at $800 million. Now, that package includes heavy weapons like Howitzers, thousands of artillery rounds, and tactical drones modified for use in Ukraine. [23:05:00]

U.S. President Joe Biden says he will ask Congress for more funds for Ukraine later this week.

Let's get some perspective now on the high-profile visit to Kyiv and other issues, we're joined by CNN Military Analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling in Florida. Always good to see you, General. The -- let's talk about the, you know, Lloyd Austin and the Secretary of State Blinken planning to visit Kyiv. How important are the optics of that at such a time, senior administration officials on the ground, meeting with Zelenskyy?

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's critical for a couple of reasons, Michael. First of all, obviously, the face-to-face, which several other NATO nations have provided within Kyiv itself. It's -- it's -- it sends a very strong signal that NATO and the United States are supporting Ukraine, but it also sends a very strong signal to Mr. Putin that the NATO alliance is very combined.

But I'd take it one step further, not just the meeting tomorrow, on a very special holiday, the Greek Orthodox Easter, but it also is a preliminary to Secretary Austin going to Brussels and meeting with all of the NATO defense ministers. I have a distinct feeling that that meeting on Monday and Tuesday is going to be critically important for coordinating additional equipment and support for Ukraine during the second phase of the operation, as well as going back to Secretary Blinken being there. Also, it could signal something that might be happening on with the return of state department officials to the embassy in Kyiv.

HOLMES: Right. I also wanted to ask you about this. This Russian commander talking about Russia's strategic aims, including reaching around potentially even to Moldova, which would, of course, make Ukraine landlocked. I got two questions for you, does Russia even have the military capability to achieve such an aim, and secondly if they did succeed, what would Russia taking Moldova mean in the broader European security picture?

HERTLING: Well, they're certainly not going to attempt to take Moldova. And this Russian commander, a guy named General Rustam Minnekaev, who I actually met on one occasion, he's commander of Russia's military -- central military district. So, this is an outsider, basically providing support for Mr. Putin in a campaign that he's not really involved in.

So, when he starts talking about this, even though it's probably representing what the government of Russia is thinking about doing, it really sends a signal not only to what they're attempting to do, but what they might like to do in the future to go after that so-called breakaway republic within Moldova, the republic of Transnistria, which has been a frozen conflict, one of several frozen conflicts in Europe.

That also, Michael, sends a signal to some of the other nations in NATO, such as Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania who all have Russian speakers. And Russia has said in the past that it is there to protect all Russian speakers throughout Europe. So, it sends a message there across the board.

But getting back to your original question, does Russia have the capability to do this, you know, from a military perspective, not in your life. You know, even with the so-called 85 battalion tactical groups that they have surrounding Ukraine right now on the Eastern side and in the South, that's about somewhere between 80,000 and 90,000 combat forces. When you -- when you start talking about the cities that are particularly in the Southern region, Kherson, Mykolaiv, Odessa, and then on into potentially Transnistria, that overstretches that amount of military capability by an awful lot. You need three to one in the offense to go against the defense. I don't think Russian forces have it and they certainly haven't been able to use their -- what they do have in a very effective manner.

HOLMES: Yes, yes. That old excuse of protecting Russian speakers. I spoke to plenty of Russian speakers in Ukraine who said that isn't us. When it comes to the Russian push from the East, the Donbas, that territory is different to that around Kyiv and elsewhere further North where Russian forces were pushed back. More open, more conducive to the hit and run, shoot and scoot tactics, if you like. How do you see Russia's advantages and disadvantages in the East?

HERTLING: Well, what they're currently doing, Michael, is something called shaping operations. They're doing reconnaissance in fourth -- excuse me, reconnaissance in force in three different areas. In the Kharkiv and Donbas region, and also Southeast of Zaporizhzhia. So that -- when you take a look at the Eastern sector of Ukraine, it's about 200 to 300 miles long in terms of the axis of advance that Russia is attempting to move on. That's an awful big area.

[23:10:00]

They're looking to find a breakthrough. They will do that with artillery. They will strike, first of all, the civilian population as they've done in so many other places, but they're also attempting to use artillery to break through for their tank and mechanized forces. Now, that's something that Russia claims they can do with combined arms operations. We haven't seen that yet.

But getting to your point about the terrain, this is wide open terrain, as John Kirby once said, it's somewhat like Kansas, very different than the roads that the Russian forces had to stay on to the North of Kyiv and Kharkiv in the first phase of this operation. I don't believe they're going to be able to conduct very good combined arms operations on open fields like they say they can or like as within their doctrine.

So, I think those forces are still going to be road-bound because Russian forces follow one another. Many of them don't have maps. They don't have the independent maneuver capability. And I believe Russians -- or, excuse me, the Ukrainians will conduct a very good counteroffensive and they have stopped them so far in all three of those actions of advance.

HOLMES: Yes, those U.S. Howitzers are going to come into play big- time in that part of this war. I wish we had more time, Mark Hertling, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Always good to see you, my friend.

HERTLING: Good to see you, too, Michael. Thanks.

HOLMES: OK. Well, a Ukrainian woman is working to document evidence of atrocities and possible war crimes from Russian attacks. Maria Avdeeva is the research director at the European Expert Association. Now, she records scenes of destruction with her cellphone. Here's just one of her videos from the regional Capital Kharkiv.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA AVDEEVA, RESEARCH DIRECTOR, EUROPEAN EXPERT ASSOCIATION: You see the building behind me, it has no windows and inside is also severely damaged. And right here behind me, is a huge hole which was made by -- by another rocket because this building was hit twice.

Especially damaged is this part of the building where the rocket hit. It -- it's -- it has no floor there because everything fall upside down after the attack. I will show you closer how it looks at the moment. The carpet hanging from the other floor. So, the rocket actually hit there and then fall down up to the first floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Extraordinary images. Avdeeva says the bodies of 29 people have been pulled from the rubble there, but that there are more bodies inside. And now a month after the strikes, the work to extract them continues. She spoke with CNN's Jim Acosta earlier about what it is like to document the attacks on her country and why she does it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AVDEEVA: What we see here, these atrocities, I think it's very important for people in the world to see them and that will lead to more support to Ukraine. Including more weapons to Ukrainian military so that the Ukrainian military will be able to use them here it -- here on the front lines now when the battle for Donbas and for the East has started. And that will allow them to defend civilian population here on the East because Russia is now putting everything they have, all weapons they have, to -- for attacks here in Kharkiv and generally in Donbas.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: And Maria, do you ever worry about your safety when you go through these buildings?

AVDEEVA: You can never be safe now anywhere in Ukraine because, of course, you know that only Kharkiv but other cities were hit by Russian missile, ballistic rockets including Lviv, which is the most Western city of Ukraine. Of course, in Kharkiv it's more dangerous because it's under intensify -- intensive shelling almost every day. And -- but you -- I got used to it and I take this risk consciously and I understand that it's very important to stay here and document what is happening because someday Russian generals and Putin will stay in the court and will be held responsible for the war crime they have committed here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Maria Avdeeva there speaking with Jim Acosta earlier.

Now, Ukraine's Orthodox Christians, as we said at the beginning of the program, are celebrating Easter this weekend under the shadow of Russia's war. Ukrainian authorities have imposed curfews after warning about the potential for increased Russian attacks during the holiday.

[23:15:00]

But despite the danger, many are attending churches for worship, blessings, and reflection.

In Kyiv, there were emotional scenes of families reuniting as thousands are estimated to return to Ukraine for Easter on Sunday. Many of the faithful say this year, it is particularly important to spend time with family. With more than five million people having fled Ukraine since Russia's invasion, the U.N. says more than one million have also returned home, although it is unclear how many of those will choose to stay.

We're going to take a quick break here on the program. When we come back, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta examines whether a COVID infection offers similar immunity to a vaccination. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Former U.S. Senator Orrin Hatch has passed away, according to his foundation. Hatch was the longest-serving senator in Utah history. He left the senate in 2019 after serving 42 years on Capitol Hill. The chairman of the Hatch Foundation called him, "A man of wisdom, kindness, character, and compassion."

[23:20:00]

And said, "In a nation divided, Orrin Hatch helped show us a better way, by forging mean meaningful friendships on both sides of the aisle." Hatch was 88 years old.

Decision day has arrived in France. Polls open in less than three hours for the presidential runoff between the incumbent Emmanuel Macron and the Far-Right challenger Marine Le Pen. The two candidates are polar opposites in their visions for the nation's future. Mr. Macron wanting a free market-oriented France at the head of a powerful EU, while Le Pen pushing for economic protectionism and an overhaul of relationships with allies. We'll have more analysis in about 20 minutes when CNN European Affairs Commentator Dominic Thomas will join me live.

A boat carrying approximately 60 people sank off the coast of Lebanon on Saturday. At least one person known to have died, a child. More than 40 people have been rescued. A government official tells Reuters, this happened near the City of Tripoli in the Northern part of the country. According to the state news agency, the boat was sailing, "Illegally" towards Europe and Cyprus. The Lebanese army, Red Cross, and other agencies are searching for those not yet accounted for. One new finding suggests that COVID-19 infections provide unvaccinated people with about as much immunity against reinfection as people injected with mRNA vaccines. That's according to a study released by Providence Health Care. But not all research is the same. CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta visited Emory University to see what its researchers have discovered.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CCN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): In this lab at Emory University, scientists like Mehul Suthar are working to answer one of the most common questions of the pandemic. How much protection does a previous COVID infection provide?

MEHUL SUTHAR, VIRAL IMMUNOLOGIST, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Whereas a vaccine response, you may have all individuals that got a vaccine high antibody and sort of wane over time. With infections, you'll have lots of individuals that have very low and individuals to have very high antibody responses.

DR. GUPTA (voiceover): Take a look at this graph of people who have immunity from a prior infection. See how varied the blue dots and lines are? They represent the antibody response. It's all over the place. It is proof, Suthar says, that not all infections are the same. But with vaccines, a much more predictable, consistent antibody response. But how do you use this data to make decisions in the real world? Especially now that States have loosened measures, like mask and vaccine mandates.

DR. GUPTA (on camera): If I were to get my antibodies checked, could I then get some sort of measure of just how protected I am?

SUTHAR: There aren't good correlates of protection. Something that says this is the measurement that one needs to know how well they are protected. And now with these variants, we're seeing how these antibody responses, sort of, take a hit.

DR. GUPTA (on camera): Let's say you're in a situation where someone essentially doesn't have antibodies anymore. You were to measure their antibodies that you don't see them. Does that mean they no longer have protection?

SUTHAR: Not necessarily. So, there's several aspects to one's immune system that can drive protection.

DR. GUPTA (voiceover): Like B cells, which can make more antibodies if the virus comes back. And T cells, which help activate the immune system and get rid of infected cells. Antibodies in your blood naturally wane over time. Think of it like security lights at your home. When there's an intruder nearby, they should turn on. But when there's no more threat, you want them to turn back off.

DR. GUPTA (on camera): Why do we focus so much on antibodies?

SUTHAR: One aspect is that antibodies are probably one of the easiest to measure in the laboratory. DR. DORRY SEGEV, PROFESSOR OF SURGERY, NYU LANGONE HEALTH: The immunity you get from prior COVID infection has become way more politicized than anything I've ever seen in medicine. But it's still a very important medical question.

DR. GUPTA (voiceover): Dr. Dorry Segev is a transplant surgeon who says antibody tests should be used in some cases to understand how protected people are. In February, he published research on hundreds of unvaccinated Americans who had COVID.

DR. SEGEV: Almost every single one of them had detectable antibodies.

DR. GUPTA (voiceover): And the science says, if those people then later got vaccinated, they will have even more robust immunity than infection alone. It's something Segeve thinks we do need to take into consideration.

DR. SEGEV: COVID is a high risk, high consequence way of getting immunity, but if you had COVID and you went through that and you have immunity, that is something we need to respect and we need to incorporate in the ways we draw this sort of, the new social contract of COVID.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:25:00]

DR. GUPTA (on camera): So, there's no doubt that being previously infected can provide significant protection. The issue more is, how consistent is it? How predictable is it? An older person who didn't get that ill from the original infection, they may not generate as many antibodies as a young person who got very ill. That's the sort of issue. You can't predict that. And obviously, getting infected comes with the risk of getting sick, developing long COVID symptoms.

As things stand now, about 95 percent of the country probably has some degree of immunity. That is a combination of being both vaccinated and infected. But again, it's the vaccinated immunity that is going to be far safer.

HOLMES: Sanjay Gupta there.

Ukrainian President Zelenskyy taking questions from reporters on Saturday during an underground press conference in Kyiv. CNN's own Phil Black was there. We'll have his report from the event coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: And welcome back to our viewers here in the United States and around the world, I'm Michael Holmes. Appreciate your company.

Now, Ukraine's president says, he will spend Orthodox Easter with two high profile guests from the U.S. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy announcing on Saturday, the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin are due in Kyiv in the coming hours. U.S. government has not officially announced the visit. Mr. Zelenskyy will likely make the case for more aid for his country.

Elsewhere in Ukraine, officials say Russian missile strikes in the Port City of Odessa killed eight people. The city's mayor says an infant was among the dead in that residential building there. And Ukraine's Defense Ministry says a strike on a Russian command post in the Southern Kherson region took out two Russian generals, Russia not commenting on that attack. Ukraine's military says it hit 17 air targets on Saturday, including three Russian aircraft, five cruise missiles and nine drones.

[23:30:07]

Now, Mr. Zelenskyy faced reporters Saturday in a two-hour news conference held inside an underground metro station. CNN's Phil Black was there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are emerging from an extraordinary wartime presidential press conference that was both theatrical and relatively safe from Russian missiles. President Zelenskyy, some of the Ukrainian and international media deep underground to attend a slickly produced event in one of KYIV's metro stations. There on one of the platforms even with the odd train flying past to questions on the state of the war for about two hours. At times he was emotional, especially notably when discussing missile strikes on the city of Odessa on Saturday that he says killed a three month old child.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translation): When the war started this child was a month old and the child died. Just realize that, grasp it bastards. What can I say? These are just bloody bastards. I have no other words. I'm sorry but bastards.

BLACK: Could you please give us your assessment of Russia's plans, but also its capabilities for its operations in the East in the Donbas? Will Russia or perhaps more importantly, can Russia launch a large scale push to break through your defensive lines? Or is this looming as a slower, longer grinding military operation? And secondly, do you believe your allies are finally getting the message? Are they sending you the heavy weapons you need? Thank you.

ZELENSKYY: If they, God forbid, occupy something, we we'll get it back. It will not be a matter of 10 or 20 years, not a war like we had starting from 2014, we've had this for eight years. Concerning the armaments, if we have enough of it, we will return it immediately. We will take our territories back immediately. We see a change. We see this change regarding our western part. I can see the change in the speed of response, especially in the United States.

BLACK: President Zelenskyy said getting the right weapons will be a big part of his agenda when he meets with the U.S. Secretary of State and Defense in queue on Sunday. Phil Black CNN, Kyiv.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: The U.N. human rights monitoring mission in Ukraine says it has documented and verified more than 5200 civilian casualties since the beginning of the invasion. That includes more than 2300 civilian deaths and nearly 3000 civilians injured. And the U.N. Human Rights Office says it has documented the unlawful killing, including by summary execution of some 50 civilians in the town of Bucha.

Now, in the early weeks of the war, CNN's Jim Sciutto had a chance to meet Bucha family at an evacuation center in Lviv in the west of the country. Yana and her children had just fled the violence having to leave her husband and mother behind. They're safe now having made their way to the E.U. Yana spoke to Jim again after reuniting with the rest of the family in Spain. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Jana first, it's so good to see you and your kids and you're safe, and there are smiles. I'm so happy you're in a safe place. How is everybody doing?

YANA TIAHLA, ESCAPED BUCHA, UKRAINE (through translation): It's much better than it was before.

SCIUTTO: Oh, goodness, I'm sure. Well, everybody looks -- they look happy. That's the most important. When we last met your husband and your mother was still left behind in Bucha. They've been able to join you?

TIAHLA: Yes, we are together. We got as far as Lviv together. And then I went -- me and the children went to Poland. And we were waiting there for my husband and mom. He was allowed to leave because we have three children and right now in Ukraine families with three children and more their husbands can leave.

SCIUTTO: I'm so happy for you that you can all be together. So look at the smile say it all, they really do. When we spoke, we knew that the fighting was bad in Bucha but we didn't know how bad. We didn't know about all the crimes it seems that Russian forces have committed there. Have you been in touch with family and friends who were left behind?

[23:35:09]

TIAHLA: Yes, I mean, we left in time, and a lot of our friends managed to leave in time. But we do know people who stayed there for a long time yet and managed to leave, literally, very recently. So they have been telling us about all the horrors that I can now see in the internet on the photos and videos. But we left on the ninth day of the war, so we definitely left in time.

SCIUTTO: It must be so heartbreaking you -- for you frightening for you to hear all those stories, to see all those pictures.

TIAHLA: Yes, indeed. And we know people who died there, we have personal connections there. And we have -- so for example, Miroslava's (ph) teacher died. And also Misha's (ph) kindergarten teacher has not been found yet. We don't know exactly how they died. But we know that they died. And so we have a personal story as well. Because we know like Misha's kindergarten teacher, we don't yet know they can't find her.

Yeah, and it's just horrifying to see because we can see photos on the internet of places we know, a lake with benches, a park where we used to take walks. And now there's a mass grave there. It's really horrible to see.

SCIUTTO: How do you explain all that to your children?

TIAHLA: Yes, my eldest child is 11. And she understands everything. She has access to information. She has a phone. She can see the internet. So she was inside this war. And she knows war is war. With the youngest, I mean, they realize there's the war on and they understand what's good and what's bad. But we haven't gone into the horrific details with them. We've managed to keep them safe from it so far.

We told our eldest daughter about her teacher, we -- it took us a day to gather our strength to tell her. We didn't know, it was quite difficult. With the youngest, we haven't told him yet about his kindergarten teacher. He's too little. We're not going to tell him yet.

SCIUTTO: I get it. Do you have hope that you'll be able to go home, again?

TIAHLA: Yes, we get asked this question a lot. Right now we can't go back to Bucha because it's a completely destroyed city. There's a problem with everything there. There's no water, no power, no gas. And also there's a lot of rubble, they're still finding dead bodies. They're still digging people's bodies out of the rubble. And also, it's a totally booby trapped city. I get pictures that I get sent myself personally. And there are mines, there are booby traps, found in the washing machines in cupboards. And it will take more than a month for us to be able to go back there with children.

So right now we are trying to learn the language. We're trying to find a job and we're trying to keep our children safe and to get them the basic necessities, foods and basic -- meet their basic needs. But yeah, we wants to go back to Bucha eventually, because that's where our life is. That's where we live. Right now here we just have two backpacks.

SCIUTTO: I remember those two backpacks. I do, and your socks, right?

TIAHLA: Yeah, we have a bit more than socks now because we got a lot of help in Spain.

SCIUTTO: It's so good to see you. I'm glad your family is safe. I really am. And it's nice to see you smiling. I just hope you're able to go home soon.

TIAHLA: We would like that very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: You're watching CNN Newsroom. We'll be back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:42:46]

HOLMES: Polls will open in less than two and a half hours in France where voters are about to choose their next president. The incumbent, President Emmanuel Macron, facing far right challenge and Marine Le Pen they have two very different visions of the future for the country. And the outcome of the election will resonate both in France and abroad.

For more, I'm joined by CNN European Affairs Commentator, Dominic Thomas, speaking with us from Paris very early in the morning, beginning of a long day for you. So these polls will be open in a few hours. What do we expect in terms of turnout in this election? One of the big issues has been apathy. How engaged voters are?

DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Yes, Michael, I think based on the last three election cycles, what we've seen is voter turnout has actually dropped off between the two rounds and abstentions have also been rising. So, based on what happened in the first round, I expect 25% or more of French people to actually not even bother going to the ballot boxes. And this apathy is being driven by a fairly widespread sentiment of a kind of lack of representation. This is a country that's gone through some major political changes over the last decade or so, the mainstream parties no longer do very well. And it's a winner takes all system. And it's compounded by the fact that as much as French voters are accustomed to voting against a candidate in the runoff stages, the fact that Le Pen family member has been on the ballot three of the last five times and I've simply been asked to vote against that. That far right, an alternative has left people feeling and a little bit frustrated with the way in which France is going and what these other candidates represent for them. Michael.

HOLMES: As we broadcast to the world, I mean, the conflict in Ukraine has really put a spotlight on the candidates foreign policies, why are those platforms crucial for Europe and the world in this particular election?

THOMAS: Yeah, it's really what has distinguished in the runoff stage Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron. She as a far right candidate has been embracing for the last 20 plus years, his image of a declining France that is somehow can be interpreted or explained by the proverbial three eyes, you know, immigration identity and cultural challenges presented in France as she claims by Islam. And in contrast Emmanuel Macron who going into this election would have been subjected to far more scrutiny on his domestic issues.

[23:45:09]

It's really the international crisis and situation that has underscored that at this moment in history, a leader who believes in the European Union believes in NATO and believes in multilateralism is absolutely crucial. And I think that that extend Marine Le Pen looks like a candidate who is on the wrong side of history, and Emmanuel Macron has been able to build on his foreign policy credentials, and that has strengthened his chances in this election.

HOLMES: I saw a voter being interviewed on television earlier who said that the choice in this election is like choosing between cholera and the plague, which doesn't say a lot for the mood in the country, you know, just have fed up are people with politics?

THOMAS: Yeah, they are that disillusion of course, that's a sort of an analogy, that we've heard in so many different kinds of contexts. And the fact that there's a difference between color and the plague is obvious. But in this particular case, there is a radical difference between what Marine Le Pen represents, of course, and these far right and ideals and credentials, that that really would undermine the working of Europe. And it's not what Europe needs at this stage. But the broader question really has been, with this erosion of the presidential election is, as I said, this winner takes all that doesn't provide you with the kind of representation you get through coalition party formations, for example, in in Germany, means that people ultimately by embracing these smaller political groups, and parties really feel left out of the of the political process and have to wait for the legislative to try and restore some of that.

And so you have these competing visions as to where France is going today. And I think that by the time we get to the next election cycles, and so many of these political leaders and so on will have transitioned. France is going to have to really look carefully at this political process, which is very much divided right now. About a third, third, third between the far left or far right, and then the centrist political parties, Michael.

HOLMES: How soon after polls close can we expect a definitive result and what happens in?

THOMAS: Yeah, well, Sunday is going to be an exciting day. Polls close at 7 p.m. Paris time and it is expected that the, you know, "official results" will be released around that eight o'clock p.m. hour so that 2 p.m. in the afternoon, Eastern Time in Atlanta, New York.

HOLMES: All right, Dominic Thomas, good to have you there on the spot. As I said the start of a long day for you, I appreciate it. Thanks, Dominic.

THOMAS: Thank you, Michael.

HOLMES: And do be sure to tune in for our special live Election Day coverage. Join us Sunday 8 p.m. Paris time, 2 p.m. Eastern in North America right here on CNN.

Still to come here on the program, the opioid crisis reaching another record in the United States. Now, a new tool hopes to stop the deadly overdoses, we'll have details when we come back.

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HOLMES: And what you're looking at there is a rally outside the White House on Saturday as part of Earth Day weekend celebrations. Several organizations including the Sierra Club, and the NAACP calling on the Biden administration and Congress to pass climate change legislation that has been stalled in the Senate. But like there's a lot at stake or anything. They demanded climate care, jobs and justice.

Now, drug overdoses in the United States are on a shocking rise that has prompted bars across the country to offer patrons fentanyl testing strips, but some say it's only making drug use easier. CNN's Kim Brunhuber with that story.

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KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Some bars and clubs in the U.S. are now offering their patrons something else besides music and drinks, something new, a simple piece of paper that can detect the synthetic opioid fentanyl. For decades, opioid overdoses have cast a shadow over the United States in April, the CDC estimated annual overdose deaths reached an all-time high.

Close to 107,000 people died of drug overdoses in the 12 month period ending in November 2021. And about two-thirds of those deaths involve fentanyl or particularly deadly opioid. According to a report by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, many of the illicit drugs in circulation in the U.S. are adulterated with fentanyl. It can prove fatal.

In Oakland, California, a harm reduction nonprofit called FentCheck is taking matters into their own hands.

ALISON HELLER, COFOUNDER OF FENTCHECK: They're going around to bars and they all have bowls of free fentanyl test strips and we're just refilling them, making they're fully stocked for the weekend, making sure everybody can have -- they're going to make choices, they're making them with some safety and some informed consent.

BRUNHUBER: Their efforts aren't limited to Oakland. The nonprofit is also distributing strips across other cities like San Francisco, New York and Philadelphia. The strips aren't just free. They're also easy to use. Drug users mix a tiny amount of the drug whether it's heroin, cocaine or crushed up pills in an ounce of water. Then they dip the strip into a solution for 15 seconds and remove it. The results appear like a pregnancy test. One line indicates the presence of fentanyl and two lines means no fentanyl.

HELLER: We're done with dead kids. We're done with accidental overdoses. Because even if, you know, we really do like to encourage recreational drug users to engage with harm reduction, and they cannot make it to the next step in their sorority if they die that night. That's why this is important.

BRUNHUBER: While distribution of testing strips continues to grow in some major cities, not all states and cities are welcoming the idea, some opponents have criticized those strips for enabling drug users.

[23:55:08] DR. JOEY HENSLEY, TENNESSEE STATE SENATOR & PHYSICIAN: I just don't think it's a good policy to make it easier for people addicted to drugs to use drugs.

BRUNHUBER: Still, the White House has made it support clear. Under the Biden administration's new drug control policy, the White House plans to expand access to harm reduction services like fentanyl testing strips by 25% in the next three years.

DR. RAHUL GUPTA, DIRECTOR, U.S. OFFICE OF NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY: The fact is that harm reduction save lives.

Kim Brunhuber, CNN.

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HOLMES: And finally, a couple of Florida neighborhoods got visits from two massive alligators recently and they were of course caught on video.

Now, have a look at this one strolling along of Venice streets last weekend. He's not small as he got. Officials estimate this alligator was at least three meters long or around 10 feet. No harm there.

And another one a giant reptile stopping traffic in Venice, a couple of days later, he's tiny by comparison. Florida Wildlife officials say one possible reason these alligators might be out and about meeting season begins soon.

That explains everything. Thanks for spending part of your day with me. I'm Michael Holmes, you can follow me on Twitter and Instagram @HOLMESCNN. Do stick around, we'll be live from live in Ukraine as our coverage continues in just a moment. I'll see you in a minute.

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