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Odessa Missile Strike, Eight Dead; Mark Meadows And GOP Lawmakers Strategized To Overturn 2020 Election; Johnny Depp's Defamation Trial Against Amber Heard; Celebrating Easter In Ukraine; Sen. Warren Calls Kevin McCarthy A Liar And Traitor; Judy Garland's Wizard Of Oz Dress Up For Auction. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired April 24, 2022 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:00]
JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: On orthodox Easter, the last significant holdout in Mariupol was under heavy bombardment. Civilians and troops still sheltering in a steel plant. Meantime, local officials say other citizens were forcibly deported to areas in Russia. And we have brand new video to show you showing Saturday's deadly attack on Odessa. This is the moment a Russian missile struck residential apartments.
The next video we're about to show you is from a different angle. Watch this. It is just astounding footage from inside the building.
(VIDEO PLAYING)
Just remarkable, stunning footage there. Eight people did not survive the attack including Valeria (ph) and her 3-month-old daughter Kira (ph). There they are right there. Just heartbreaking. That pure joy and innocence wiped away by the Russians.
Ukrainian troops are now entering their third month of fighting to protect people like Valeria (ph) and Kira (ph). And today, Orthodox Easter Sunday, brings a much needed moment of reflection. CNN' Matt Rivers joins me now from Kyiv.
Matt, heavy shelling has continued today and the footage that we were just showing a few moments ago, I mean, it just tells this devastating story of what people have been living through week after week, day after day as Russia bombards this country.
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No question. And Odessa, just the latest city to have been hit by a missile strike after not being hit for at least several weeks, Jim. We know that in that missile strike at least eight were killed with that missile hitting what is obviously not a military target.
It's an apartment building as is so clear in that video that you just showed. And the video from inside just striking, showed the destructive power of these missiles when they hit there. At least eight people killed. Many more people injured as a result of that attack.
Odessa now firmly in the cross hairs of the Russian military given what we've heard from Russian top military leadership during the last few days for the first time admitting that not only is the Russian military goal to capture the Donbas region in the east, which of course, is the latest focus of this new offensive by Russia's military, but also the southern part of Ukraine.
So, we know they've already largely taken cities like Mariupol and Kherson, but if you move further west, you're looking at a city like Odessa. A key port city that is largely been spared the kind of violence and onslaught that so many other cities in Ukraine have faced, but given what we're hearing from Russia's leadership, the city of Odessa could very well be in the cross hairs moving forward.
Speaking of Mariupol, however, we have had our eyes on that city which has been under siege for weeks now by the Russian military. Still a small pocket of Ukrainian resistance centered around the Azovstal Steel plant, which we know civilians are inside there alongside other remaining fighters on the Ukraine side.
Russia though largely occupying the entire city and even though there are tens of thousands of people, Jim, who need to be evacuated from that city, which Russia could do if they wanted to. Make no mistake about it. They control the vast majority of that city; they are not letting people leave. Ukraine once again, not able to get a humanitarian corridor open for those civilians due to what they say are repeated violations of cease fires by Russia.
ACOSTA: Yes, Matt. We spoke to a gentleman in the last hour from Mariupol and he was talking about the desperate situation there and how there may be 100,000 people just on the brink of starvation because you can't get food into parts like this when they're just undergoing all of this death and destruction. Matt Rivers, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
And joining me now is retired Army Brigadier General Peter Zwack. He previously served as the U.S. senior defense attache to the Russian federation. Also, with us here in studio, CNN military analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.
General Zwack, President Zelenskyy said yesterday that the Secretary of State Antony Blinken, the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, would be visiting Kyiv today. The White House has yet to confirm this. But what kind of message does this send to Russia? I suppose in the coming hours, we're going to find out more about this, but it does send a message.
PETER ZWACK, FORMER U.S. SENIOR DEFENSE ATTACHE TO RUSSIAN FEDERATION: It certainly does. It just shows how much not just European, but American skin is in this struggle. It's that existential struggle that Ukraine is having to fight for. And we're following a number of European nations, peaceful nations that have sent their prime ministers, and so it's totally appropriate.
The Ukrainians for sure will be working the security aspects of this if it happens. And no, it is on message. We're in sync with our allies.
[17:05:00]
And the message back to Moscow is you know, don't, you know, stop. We're in this and we're not going to let go.
ACOSTA: And Colonel Leighton, I want to go back this video we were just showing to our viewers, brand new video from the shelling of Odessa. And as Matt Rivers was describing this a few moments ago, a residential video. Let's show our viewers again.
(VIDEO PLAYING)
Eight dead including a 3-month-old baby, Colonel Layton, after these missiles striking Odessa, an apartment building.
CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALUST: Yes.
ACOSTA: This is the intentional targeting, appears to be intentional targeting. We've seen it time and again from the Russians, of a civilian area. It's just incredible.
LEIGHTON: It really is, Jim. And, you know, yes, mistakes do happen in war. There are times when civilian areas are targeted by mistake --
ACOSTA: But they don't get the benefit of the doubt anymore.
LEIGHTON: Yes. They don't. And in this case, the Russians don't get the benefit of the doubt because they have deliberately targeted civilians time and time again. We know that they are deliberately looking at these apartment buildings and they're going through their footage of all these areas, the imagery of all these areas, and they're going after them because they want to terrorize civilian population.
This is not about a military-on-military conflict. Now, it's a military on the people conflict and that is a very dangerous place for the Russians to be, both in terms of what they're actually doing to the Ukrainians, but also what they're doing to world opinion. And they're going to lose this in many way -- many respects from a world opinion standpoint. It's very detrimental to the Russians to do it this way.
ACOSTA: And General Zwack, we're just now learning from Ukrainian officials that Russian forces appear to be preparing for an offensive around the Kherson region in southern Ukraine. What do you make that? We know they want that corridor across the south of Ukraine.
ZWACK: Yes. This sort of goes -- they've got to secure Kherson if they're going to attempt, and I believe it would be a major stretch for them to push down Odessa at the same time while they are trying to win in Donbas and they haven't finished the siege battle for Mariupol.
But it's a pivot point. It gives them options to move down along the Black Sea coast toward Odessa. And -- but again, the Russians have this term, correlation of forces. This is a big, big stretch from what we saw in north of Kyiv for their forces that are in part pretty battered and still are going to suffer major logistical challenges if they make those pushes. If they're doing this all simultaneously, it's going to be hard, I believe.
ACOSTA: And Colonel Leighton, U.S. and Ukrainian officials have said that Mariupol residents are being forcibly deported. We've talked about this on previous weekends. This happens where people are taken thousands of miles away in some cases to eastern Russia or Russian occupied territory.
We're looking at these devastating pictures once again of what's happened in Mariupol. Talked to a gentleman in the last hour who fled that city and escaped capture of Russian forces, by the Russian forces, and is talking about how the people who are left there are on the brink of starvation, 100,000 people on the brink of starvation. It's just a horrific humanitarian situation.
LEIGHTON: Absolutely. And it, you know, draws so many parallels to what's happened in the past. You know, you look at things that Alekandr Solzhenitsyn described in his novels like "The Gulag Archipelago" or "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovic." These are the kinds of things that these people are going through now and, you know, if people haven't read those books, it might be a good time to revisit them so that they understand a little bit about what could be happening to the Ukrainian people at this point and it's certainly unacceptable.
ACOSTA: It's certainly unacceptable, but that area has just been completely levelled and it's hard to imagine any relief being in sight at this point. It's just a horrendous situation. All right. Thank you, Colonel Leighton, Peter Zwack, General Peter Zwack, thank you so much to both of you for your time. We appreciate it.
A quick programming note. Make sure you catch the unbelievable true story of the man who took on Putin and lived to expose the truth. The Sundance award winning CNN Film "Navalny" airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
And coming up, did Trump's former White House chief of staff and some Republican members of Congress strategize a plan to encourage supporters to march to the capitol on January 6th? Newly disclosed documents points to yes, in that direction for sure. We'll talk about that. That's coming up next. You're live in the "CNN Newsroom."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:10:00]
ACOSTA: The January 6th Committee revealing stunning new testimony that before the capitol insurrection, then President Trump's White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, held a call with some Republican lawmakers and they discussed a plan to encourage supporters to march to the capitol as Congress was certifying the election.
The testimony came from a former aide to Mark Meadows who also told the panel that Meadows had mentioned in casual conversation "Oh, we're going to have this big rally. People are talking about it on social media. They're going to go up to the capitol." That seems to contradict Meadows' claim in a book that Trump "ad- libbed a line that no one had seen before when Trump told the crowd to march." CNN's senior legal analyst and former federal and state prosecutor Elie Honig joins me now.
Elie, a lot of interesting material in that filing that came from the January 6th Committee. How significant is this testimony from this Meadow's aide? I mean, this is not a member of the deep state or anything like that. This is somebody, this was a staffer for Mark Meadows providing some very, very interesting information.
[17:15:05]
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Jim. So, a couple of really important pieces of information to come from this aide. First of all, she testified that Mark Meadows was warned. There was a danger of violence here. To me, that is crucial testimony because the party line thus far from Donald Trump and his supporters has been well, we wanted to see political protests, but we did not want to see violence.
Well, if it turns out as one might suspect, they were warned of the danger of violence and went ahead anyway and that really changes the whole picture here. The second part of this is as you noted, Jim, is just how many members of Congress were at least in on the plan to encourage people to march to the capitol.
Now there's nothing inherently wrong with encouraging a march on the capitol, but if you combine that with knowing there could be danger, then you're in different territory. Now, unfortunately, it seems that the January 6th Committee has adopted a rule that they will not be subpoenaing their fellow members of Congress. And as a result, these members of Congress who've been named in the testimony may never have to answer questions under oath.
ACOSTA: Yes. And there is bombshell audio, obviously, we've been talking about this for days now. Calls between the House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and members of the House GOP that were released this past week. In one of these calls, McCarthy tells lawmakers Trump acknowledged some responsibility for the insurrection. Let's listen to that again.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I have been very clear to the president. He bears responsibilities for his words and actions. No if, ands or buts. I asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened? He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. And he needs to acknowledge that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Elie, is it time to issue a subpoena for Kevin McCarthy? And I understand some of the hesitation on the part of the democrats. They're worried about, you know, reprisals and if the Republicans take the House, there will be subpoenas for all sorts of things and so on and so forth.
But this was an insurrection. This was an attempt to overturn an election. I mean, wouldn't a judge weighing the subpoenas would find that a subpoena for Kevin McCarthy in a case like this or a subpoena for Scott Perry in a case like this would obviously be more important than subpoenas that might not carry as much weight when the next Congress comes in?
HONIG: Yes, Jim. It's long past due for a subpoena in this case in my view. And to be clear, the decision not to subpoena Kevin McCarthy is a political one that the committee is making. I agree with you. If this became a legal fight, could they enforce a subpoena? I think any judge of right mind would absolutely uphold that subpoena.
Why? Because the statements that we just heard on tape from Kevin McCarthy are so crucial because that is the first and I believe the only piece of evidence that Donald Trump himself acknowledged that he held some responsibility and some blame for what happened on January 6th.
Looking at this like a prosecutor, that's an admission of guilt that goes directly to his state of mind, to his intent. And Kevin McCarthy as far as we know, is the only person who can give that. So, he would be number one on a witness list if this was a prosecution; it's not. And by the way, DOJ ought to be paying attention to this as well. They can subpoena Kevin McCarthy. They shouldn't have the same kind of political restraints that the committee apparently has put on itself.
ACOSTA: And Elie, Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, her name comes up from time to time. She testified for hours at a hearing to determine if she should be allowed to run for office again due to her actions up to January 6th. The trouble is as we saw on Friday, she couldn't remember very much. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW CELLI, ATTORNEY: You didn't talk to anybody in government about the fact that there were going to be large protests in Washington on January 6th?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I don't remember.
CELLI: You spoke to Representative Biggs or his staff about that fact, didn't you?
GREENE: I do not remember.
CELLI: How about Representative Gosar?
GREENE: I'm sorry. I don't remember.
CELLI: Did anyone ever mentioned to you the possibility that there might be violence in Washington?
GREENE: I don't remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: That is a -- that's an astonishing lapse in memory there. Elie, what are the chances though that Greene is kept off the ballot?
HONIG: Well, Jim, on the one hand, Marjorie Taylor Greene's testimony was ridiculous, absurd, laughable, not credible for all the reasons that we just saw. On the other hand, it is a serious uphill climb to actually keep her off the ballot legally.
All these things that I'm about to list have to happen. First, the administrative judge who heard the case on Friday has to find not just that she lied on the stand perhaps, not just that she engaged in inflammatory speech, but that she encouraged or aided insurrection rebellion. Then it goes to the secretary of state, then it goes to the court. So, there's an awful lot of hurdles that have to be cleared before she's actually disqualified.
ACOSTA: All right. We'll watch for that. Elie Honig, thank you very much. Great to see you.
HONIG: All right, Jim. You, too. Thanks.
ACOSTA: Thank you. And coming up, Johnny Depp prepares for another week in court after the jury hears his graphic and violent messages about his ex-wife, Amber Heard.
[17:20:00]
(BEGI VIDEO CLIP)
J. BENJAMIN ROTTENBORN, LAWYER FOR AMBER HEARD: Mr. Depp, you said I will (BLEEP) her burnt corpse afterwards to make sure she is dead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ACOSTA: Johnny Depp will be back on the stand tomorrow in his defamation trial against his ex-wife, Amber Heard. The actor was confronted with graphic and violent texts during his cross-examination last week not to mention questions about his drug and alcohol use. CNN's Polo Sandoval has a recap.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three straight days of testimony this week paint a disturbing picture of the relationship between actors Johnny Depp and ex-wife, Amber Heard. Depp has been on the witness stand as part of week two of his defamation trial against Heard.
[17:25:03]
The "Pirates of the Caribbean" star suing Heard for $50 million in a Virginia court over a 2018 "Washington Post" opinion piece. In it, Heard wrote about her experience with domestic abuse. Though Depp was not named in the piece, the actor claimed it caused him financial losses. JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR: I felt the responsibility of clearing the record.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): This week, Depp told a jury his romance with Heard was seemingly perfect early on, but the relationship became volatile and quickly hit bottom after they married. Depp denied various allegations from Heard that he physically harmed her in 2015.
DEPP: There were arguments and things of that nature, but never did I myself reach the point of striking Ms. Heard in any way nor have I ever struck any woman in my life.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): He also testified that he was the one subjected to mental and physical abuse.
DEPP: It could begin with a slap. It could begin with a shove. It could begin with, you know, throwing the tv remote at my head. It could be throwing a glass of wine in my face.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): Depp testified that on one occasion in 2015, Heard threw a vodka bottle at him severing his fingertip which she has denied. And during a separate incident, she put out a cigarette on his face. On Thursday, though Heard's attorney attempted to cast a different light on the Oscar-nominated actor using his history of substance abuse.
ROTTENBORN: And you would sometimes drink whisky in the mornings, too, right? During this time period?
DEPP: I -- you know, I mean, isn't happy hour anytime?
ROTTENBORN: One of your good friends that you've taken drugs with before is Marilyn Manson, right?
DEPP: We've had cocaine together maybe a couple of times.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): Testimony turned even more crude (ph) when the defense used Depp's text messages to a friend to show rage towards her.
ROTTENBORN: After you said let's drown her before we burn her, Mr. Depp, you said I will (BLEE) her burnt corpse afterward to make sure she is dead.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): And this video showing an irate Depp was played in court Thursday by the defense.
DEPP: Here's your crazy. All your crazy.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): Depp responded saying he did not assault her during the recorded tirade.
SARA AZARI, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There's evidence on both sides they have also perpetrated domestic violence. So, at the end of the day, this jury's going to be tasked with deciding is this relationship of mutual combat and how does that impact her statement in this op-ed that she's merely a victim of domestic violence. It sounds like we have two perpetrators.
SANDOVAL (voice-over): The jury heads back to court on Monday to hear more testimony. Heard is yet to take the stand in her own defense. Polo Sandoval, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ACOSTA: And joining us now is Matthew Belloni, founding partner of Puck News and a former editorial director of the "Hollywood Reporter." Matthew, this was a wild week of testimony and it was taking place right outside of Washington so I know a lot of people here in D.C. were talking about it. Depp returns to the stand tomorrow. What are you going to be watching for?
MATTHEW BELLONI, FOUNDING PARTNER, PUCK NEWS: I'm going to be looking to see how he responds to some of the revelations that were made in the testimony on Thursday specifically the text messages that were just awful to read. The behavior between the two of them. Remember, he's got to show here, he's the plaintiff. He's got to show that she defamed him and when all of this stuff comes out about him, that is not great for his case.
ACOSTA: And I want to play some more of this really bizarre video shown in court of Johnny Depp going on a tirade inside his kitchen. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMBER HEARD, ACTOR: I just woke up and you were still asleep. We're not even fighting this morning. All I did was say sorry.
DEPP: Did something happen to you this morning? I don't think so.
HEARD: No, that's the thing.
DEPP: You want to see crazy? I'll give you (BLEP) crazy. Here's crazy. All of your crazy. (Inaudible).
HEARD: Have you drunk this whole thing this morning?
DEPP: Oh, you got this (inaudible).
HEARD: You just started it.
DEPP: Oh really?
HEARD: Yes.
DEPP: Really? See that (BLEEP).
HEARD: I didn't. You were smashing (BLEEP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: It's hard to watch. Matthew, you know, Johnny Depp was making jokes during the trial about anytime being happy hour. [17:30:00]
What was your reaction to what we saw behind the scenes in this video of what appears to be just a broken relationship?
BELLONI: Absolutely. And it goes to the question of what kind of state of mind he was in because he seems kind of out of it there. I mean, obviously he filled up that chalice full of wine. It's, you know, the middle of the day. It doesn't look like a coherent person there. And given the testimony back and forth here, obviously there are things that have come out about her behavior as well. It looks like this is just an absolutely dysfunctional relationship with issues on both sides.
ACOSTA: And there was also this video that the defense played of Depp moaning on a plane, saying it was a result of a bender. Let's watch that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROTTENBORN: That's your voice making those moaning sounds. Sound like an animal in pain, right, Mr. Depp?
DEPP: That's exactly what I said before, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: It's just excruciating to listen to, Matthew. I mean, even if Johnny Depp were to win this trial based on everything that's come out on this case, does his career stand a chance at this point?
BELLONI: This trial has certainly not helped. And that's the big question here is he brought this case against Amber Heard and yet all of the revelations that have come out in the trial are really damaging to both of them including Depp.
And it gets to this question of damages because in order to get damages, he's got to show that his career was hurt specifically by this op-ed that Amber Heard wrote in "The Washington Post." And all of this other noise around him, everything that's come out, that really shows that there were issues with Johnny Depp irrespective of this specific op-ed piece. So that's very damaging for his case.
ACOSTA: Yes. Extremely difficult to watch. All right, Matthew Belloni, thank you very much.
BELLONI: Thank you.
ACOSTA: Coming up, Donald Trump hits the campaign trail for a senate candidate and he wanted everyone to know this for some reason.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't like being called stupid. Is there a test or something I can take to prove to these radical left maniacs that I'm much smarter than them?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[17:35:00]
ACOSTA: The number of Ukrainians who have fled their home country has now surpassed 5 million. That's according to the United Nations. More than half of those displaced refugees have found a new home in nearby Poland. Many enduring air strikes, shelling and tragic loss just to get there. But this weekend, some are putting the war aside to celebrate one of the most important holidays of the year, Orthodox Easter. CNN's Erica Hill has this story now from Warsaw.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR AND NATIONAL CORESPONDENT (voice-over): On this Orthodox Easter morning, faith in many forms.
IRYNA, UKRAINIAN REFUGEE: This day is very, you know, hopeful and we hope that this situation will be over soon. So, we are hoping. Hoping for the best for our future and we are praying for this.
HILL (voice-over): Warsaw's Orthodox cathedral of St. Mary Magdalene regularly welcomes Christians from across Europe. In the past few weeks, it's become a haven for those fleeing the war in Ukraine. Iryna tells me she misses her husband, a surgeon who stayed behind in Kyiv to treat the wounded. She hopes they'll be together again.
One of the local priests said the number of Ukrainians at this church has increased dramatically. About 80 percent he says are refugees. Ukrainian flags and colors on display. Baskets of food waiting to be blessed, proudly draped in yellow and blue.
Daria (ph), a Ukrainian student here says Easter should be celebrated together. A symbol of unity. Viktor, a political refugee from Belarus, agrees. It shows that all people are brothers, he tells me. All. Easter traditions offer both comfort and a sobering reminder of how much life has changed.
IRYNA: I can say this without tears from my eyes because it is just, I couldn't imagine, you know, that it would be happened. It is just awful.
HILL (voice-over): Iryna and her sons recently arrived in Warsaw from Lviv. Her husband and parents are still in Ukraine. 12-year-old Yurii says he's glad to be in Poland and it's safer here.
YURII, UKRAINIAN REFUGEE: It's dangerous and we have to leave because every time a bomb can fall on our house.
HILL (voice-over): Despite that fear, he's confident he'll go home one day. Faith in the future of Ukraine as strong as the faith that brings them here today.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL (on camera): Jim, that is what we heard consistently from folks at that service this morning. That they want to go home. They're hopeful they'll go home. They don't know when, but they believe it will happen. The other thing we heard from everyone is just this immense gratitude for Poland, for everything the Polish people have done for them since they've arrived here from Ukraine.
ACOSTA: Yes, the Polish people have just been absolutely remarkable throughout all of this. Erica Hill, thank you for that great story. We appreciate it.
[17:40:00]
And for more information about how you can help humanitarian efforts in Ukraine, go to cnn.com/impact. So far, CNN viewers have raised more than $7.5 million. And we'll be right back.
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ACOSTA: Senator Elizabeth Warren tearing into House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy right here on CNN after a leaked audio revealed he privately told House Republicans that Donald Trump was to blame for the January 67th insurrection and would recommend he resign. By the end of the month, McCarthy was back defending Trump leading to this reaction from Elizabeth Warren earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[17:44:59]
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Kevin McCarthy is a liar and traitor. This is outrageous. And that is really the illness that pervades the Republican leadership right now. That they say one thing to the American public and something else in private. They understand that it is wrong what happened, an attempt to overthrow our government?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Joining me now, CNN political commentator and host of PBS "Firing Line," Margaret Hoover and CNN political analyst -- senior political analyst, John Avalon. He's the author of the great new book, "Lincoln and the Fight for Peace."
John, Lincoln faced a country divided and here we are today sounding, I mean, not divided, but dangerous. And you heard Elizabeth Warren there earlier today calling Kevin McCarthy a liar and a traitor. What were your thoughts when you saw that?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It's ugly language. I mean, Democracy depends on an assumption of good will among fellow citizen, but that assumption of goodwill has been fundamentally eroded. Look, you know, what we have witnessed is an attempt by one political party loyal to a president to overturn our election. That deserves condemnation in the harshest language. And the fact that Kevin McCarthy acknowledged it in private and has continued to sort of promote the big lie in public out of his own desire for political power is -- deserves to be condemned, but you want to be careful about calling fellow citizens traitors.
MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. So, you're saying liar, yes. Traitor --
AVLON: Liar, yes. Traitor, no. Yet.
HOOVER: Yes, okay. Yet?
AVLON: Information --
HOOVER: Come on.
AVLON: I want to see where the full January 6th investigation goes. There are some -- if people were actively trying to overturn an election in pursuit of power, that gets close to (inaudible).
HOOVER: And you just wrote a book about Lincoln and so you understand the word, traitor to mean --
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: In all of its historical weightiness. And traitor is over the line. It is just over the line. Kevin McCarthy did not plan the stop the steal rally. He did not tell people to go up to the capitol. He did not say, you know, go turn on the ballots and we're going to take this thing back and we're going to reinstate Trump in August and we're going to (inaudible).
You know, Kevin McCarthy has been a liar. He is not been a paramount of moral courage. But we have to be careful not to increasingly put oxygen on the flames, gasoline on the fire, increase -- whatever metaphor you want to do to make this cycle worse.
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: And everybody is responsible for that and every member of the U.S. Senate is, too.
ACOSTA: Well, I'll tell you somebody who has some tough words for what's been taking place in Washington since the January 6th insurrection and that is former D.C. police officer, Michael Fanone. I talked to him yesterday and he is, he is furious as I think a lot of police officers are who were there that day. He was severely beaten while defending the capitol on January 6th and had this to say about Kevin McCarthy and other Republicans. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL FANONE, FORMER D.C. POLICE OFFICER: At a time where so many of us Americans, myself included, are inspired by the actions of President Zelenskyy, I look at our politicians and our elected leaders and I think to myself, this is the best we've got? This is it? You know, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Kevin McCarthy. I mean, they just, it's just unreal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: John, you know, is Kevin McCarthy doomed in his quest to become Speaker of the House or has Trump thrown him a lifeline here by brushing it all off? And what about what Michael Fanone had to say? I mean, he makes a darn good point.
AVLON: He really does. I mean, look, you know, whether McCarthy's doomed, he's going to have a caucus who goes out against (inaudible) as long as Trump's got his back, probably not mission impossible. But the core point is the one Michael Fanone made.
You know, we're looking at the example of Zelenskyy, and it's not just courage, but it's the ultimate example of leaders are judged when they put their country first over their self-interests, over their partisan interests. And that's what consistently have seen a failure to do by some of the loudest voices in our politics.
So, we do -- this is the time where we need -- people need to stand up and be big, not small. Yet all the gravitational forces seem to steer them towards being small and petty and putting party over country. And that's a recipe for disaster in democracy.
HOOVER: Yes. And nobody has more moral authority than Michael Fanone and those police officers who stood the frontlines to defend democracy in the most physical and visceral way on January 6th. So, he has all the moral authority in the world and of reason in the world to be as outraged and disgusted at the lack of moral courage on the right as anyone.
ACOSTA: Yes. If only that courage and bravery could be shifted over, could somehow be transferred over to some of the members of Congress who have just not lived up to the moment, right? Wouldn't that be something?
Let's talk about Trump. Last night, he was back on the campaign trail. You know, we can't stick our heads in the ground anymore with Donald Trump as much everybody would like do that. He was campaigning in Ohio for GOP senate candidate J.D. Vance and here are some of the pressing issues that he was focused on.
[17:50:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: But in the dishwasher as an example, they had a little problem. What was the problem? They didn't give you any water. And it was so little water that you couldn't wash the dishes. So, what do people do? They kept pressing and do it again, do it again, do it again.
So, by the time you do it 10 times, the dishes are finally there. You've wasted a lot of electricity and you spend more water than if you did right.
I don't like being called stupid. Is there a test or something I can take to prove to these radical left maniacs that I'm much smarter than them, is there a test? And he said, sure, there is a test. It's called a X test.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Okay. Now if you were to pull a string on a doll and those words were to come out, I would probably take the doll back to the store. Bu t putting that to the side, Margaret, just a few years ago, J.D Vance was comparing Trump to Adolf Hitler. I mean, that is a fact. And last night he called Trump the best president of my lifetime. That's not a flipflop. That's a trip to the upside-down world.
HOOVER: No, no. We've -- J.D. Vance we've seen an utter disappointment in somebody who showed real promise to be a visionary and an up and coming around on the right. And he seemed to be, while having come from a populous sort of West Virginia Trump country background, somebody who could really understand both the struggles of white working-class Americans and marry it with sort of the ideas and the philosophy of modern American conservatism that might actually have a path forward.
Instead, he's sold his soul to Trump. And, I mean, he's endorsed Marjorie -- accepted the endorsement of Marjorie Taylor Greene, somebody who hugs white nationalists and, you know, propels conspiracy theories that are anti-Semitic. I mean, so, J.V. has sadly fallen off, but what you saw there, Jim, I just want to point out, is that Trump isn't going anywhere and he's back. And he's doing the same thing that got him elected in the first place.
ACOSTA: Right.
HOOVER: And much as we can say that content isn't compelling to us. That's his game. What he is doing there was effective and that's what got him elected in the first place. So, you're right. We can't put our heads in the sand. This guy is still an important and relevant force in American politics and we have to reckon with it.
ACOSTA: And John, I want end on.
AVLON: Yes.
ACOSTA: I know you want to weigh in, but I want to get the French election in John because I know you want to talk about that.
AVLON: Yes.
ACOSTA: Emmanuel Macron is the projected winner in France's presidential election today. The White House, President Zelenskyy, they have to be breathing a sigh of relief. I was talking with French officials earlier today. They are elated that Emmanuel Macron has been re-elected for the sake of where Europe is right now, for the sake of NATO and what's happening in Ukraine. Your thoughts?
AVLON: It is evidence that the center can hold and it is breathing a deep sigh of relief because no one would have been happier about Le Pen's victory than Vladimir Putin and the people who want to erode the E.U. and NATO. And the fact that Macron has been re-elected for a party that didn't even exist, you know, a decade ago, is a really reassuring sign.
It is well above his approval rating. A decisive victory 58-42. And something that we can say that liberal democracy and the center can stand up against the extremes much to Vladimir Putin and there are other extremist's deep dismay. Good.
ACOSTA: And Margaret, folks over at the White House, Ron Klain, the chief of staff, they have been pointing to the fact that Joe Biden has an approval rating that's right around where Emmanuel Macron's approval rating is in France. And that Emmanuel Macron was able to cruise to re-election here. What do you think about that?
HOOVER: Let's make sure we're apples to apples here, Jim.
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: But I can see why they'd like to spin that. Look, I mean, what we should point out is that Marie Le Pen is no longer a French extremist candidate. She had over 40 percent of the vote in France. And by the way, I mean, nationalists, white (ph) populous economic forces are alive and well in the United States and in Europe. And even though Macron won decisively, her margin has grown and that has to be --
AVLON: Narrowly.
HOOVER: -- acknowledged and recognized. And so, I leave you with that.
AVLON: Yes.
HOOVER: You know, we -- these forces are still at play on both sides of the pond.
ACOSTA: Al right. It depends on who you're running against. Emmanuel Macron was running against Marine Le Pen. Clearly, the French people are not willing to embrace that. And Joe Biden, if he's running against Donald Trump again, hey, who knows? That might help Joe Biden tremendously. American people may not want to go back to the Trump years. I suspect they don't. All right, John Avlon, Margaret Hoover, we can go on all night, but thank you so much. We appreciate it. Good to see you.
HOOVER: Thanks, Jim.
AVLON: Thanks, buddy. Be well.
ACOSTA: Glad we talked.
HOOVER: All right. Take care.
ACOSTA: You, too. An iconic movie costume is hitting the auction block after a strip -- after a trip somewhere over the rainbow.
[17:55:00] The blue gingham dress that Judy Garland wore as Dorothy in the classic 1939 movie "The Wizard Oz" is for sale. The dress had been lost for decade. And so, get this, it was rediscovered last year in a shoe box. That's unbelievable. At the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
It was worn by Garland during a scene when Dorothy faces the Wicked Witch of the West at the end of the movie. It's expected to fetch as much as $1.2 million at auction next month. All the money will benefit the Catholic University's drama department. And I have to point out, that is my mother's favorite movie. So, mom, at the end of this show, this one tonight is for you. Dorothy did not surrender. She made it to the end there.
All right. That's the news. Reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. I'll see you back here next Saturday. Pamela Brown takes over the CNN NEWSROOM live after a quick break. Have a great week everybody.
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[17:59:59]
