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New Video Shows Deadly Russian Missile Strike In Odessa; Ukrainians Try To Celebrate Orthodox Easter Amid War; Senator Warren Calls Kevin McCarthy A Liar And Traitor Over January 6th Capitol Attack; Coping With The Loss During COVID-19 Pandemic; Interview With Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO) About Ukraine, Russia, China, 2020 Election, And Senator Orrin Hatch. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired April 24, 2022 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:36]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here in Ukraine, the weekend, the Orthodox Easter has seen no significant reduction in violence.

REP. VICTORIA SPARTZ (R-IN): The world has to help Ukraine to win this war. Bring the peace back to Europe, and bring the international order back.

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: I wear a mask when I get on a plane while I'm boarding and also while I'm getting off the plane. When you're at 10,000 feet, there is pretty good air filtration on a plane. So I don't feel at risk at that moment so I take my mask off.

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: If there was any hope officials here in Shanghai were going to ease some of the lockdown restrictions, it's quickly diminished. Social media videos are capturing work crews installing steel fences and blockades on public roads and inside residential compounds. They're essentially being caged in.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): All I did is walk through like anybody would, what are the different scenarios that will happen.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA: Kevin McCarthy is a liar and a traitor. This is outrageous. An attempt to overthrow our government?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. You are live in the NEWSROOM on this Sunday.

In Ukraine, the sacred holy day of Orthodox Easter has passed with more Russian attacks and signs of worst days ahead.

In Kherson region, lower left on your screen right there, a Ukrainian military official says Russian forces are preparing for an offensive in the coming days likely as part of Russia's goal of securing the south and east. Just days after Vladimir Putin said his troops would not attack the last holdout of resistance in Mariupol, Ukraine says the siege has resumed. Ukrainian officials say 1,000 women and children are trapped in the complex and at least 500 people are wounded. And Ukraine also says a humanitarian corridor wasn't opened today because Russia wouldn't guarantee a cease-fire for a safe evaluation.

Now look at the spotlight on your screen. That is a Russian missile slamming into an apartment building in Odessa. The new video shows yesterday's strike that killed eight people including a 3-month-old.

Let's begin this hour in Ukraine's capital city, CNN's Matt Rivers is in Kyiv.

So tell us about today's heaving shelling, Matt.

MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, unfortunately, Pamela, even though today is Orthodox Easter Sunday here in Ukraine, a massive holiday here for the people of this country, we did not see a huge decrease or any substantive change in Russian attacks in this country. In fact, Ukrainian officials were warning of stepped-up attacks as a result of this holiday and many churches actually not celebrating in person, kind of going back to these COVID days with virtual services or services outside, spaced apart because of fears of Russian missile strikes.

And those fears were realized all across the country, frankly. We know that multiple people were killed in both the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, those regions that make up the Donbas region which has seen the brunt of Russia's latest offensive. We know that shelling has continued in Kharkiv, the second largest city in Ukraine. You mentioned the new offensive that Russians is preparing for in Kherson.

So across the country, Russia really pressing forward with these attacks, despite the fact that nowhere have we seen Ukrainian front lines brake down. We have seen Ukrainian defenses hold largely across the country. No significant territory taken by Russian troops. So that is good news for the Ukrainian side in this fight as they push back against Russian forces.

Meanwhile, we're waiting word on a supposed meeting that President Zelenskyy said was going to take place today here in Kyiv on Sunday between Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin and the president himself. He surprised reporters on Saturday evening as we spoke about yesterday, Pamela, talking about this meeting kind of violating normal security norms in announcing the meeting before it happened.

No word yet from the presidential office here in Ukraine if that meeting did, in fact, happen. But that is what we are going to be waiting very close for word on to see what was agreed upon perhaps in that meeting.

BROWN: Right. And here in Washington, the administration not commenting on. Thanks so much, Matt. Millions of Ukrainians tried to observe or Orthodox Easter Sunday

today, as Putin's war divides families, destroys lives and tests their faith. Many people use this day of reflection and solidarity and fellowship.

CNN's Isa Soares has the story of one young family reunited after being separated by war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ISA SOARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As fighting rages on in the east of Ukraine, in Lviv, a city that has mostly been spared by Russia's wrath, parishioners gather for protection and reflection. A somber affair for many this year.

"It is less festive this year," this mother of three says. "But we want to keep our traditions and we want our kids to understand that God is with us. He helps us. We will win and, in this big day, the victory will be ours."

Despite calls to stay home, young and old line up with their adorned food baskets for a blessing from above. Around the corner, kindness shared with strangers.

(On-camera): Very good.

(Voice-over): An opportunity, too, for many Ukrainians to support the troops on the front line, with food donations and prayers.

"We are both sad and joyful in this day because we believe in our soldiers," this parishioner tells me. "We are worried for them. We are praying for them. And we are asking God to help all of us."

Others, though, are still too scared to venture to church this Easter. So we meet the Nykyforchyns, a young family that today is also feeling thankful.

"I think I've never been this happy in my life," tells me this young mother. Anna Mariia says she left Ukraine for Poland when the war started. Alone, nine months pregnant, and carrying a world of worry on her shoulders.

"When we were separated from each other, it put a huge burden psychologically on us. We were constantly reading the news," she says. "And the situation in Ukraine in general, we were very worried."

Without her husband or family by her side, and while her own country was being ripped apart by suffering, the 25-year-old in her own agony, gave birth to her little miracle, baby Maharita (PH). And this gushing father couldn't be happier to have his girls by his side.

"I have realized that my wife is not just a woman, she is a hero," he says. "And that if I was in her shoes, I wouldn't be able to. I would have broken down."

A family finally reunited and counting their blessings this Easter in the long and dark shadow of war.

Isa Soares, CNN, Lviv, Ukraine. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren today is accusing House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of lying to the American public and ripping him as a liar and a traitor. Warren was responding to the audio that came out last week, revealing what McCarthy said in private days after the Capitol riot was quite different than what he said in public.

CNN's Eva McKend joins me live now. So Elizabeth Warren not holding back this morning.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam. You know, she's not the only one. Since this dramatic audio was released, capturing Leader McCarthy in a lie, there has just been this chorus of criticism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: Kevin McCarthy is a liar and a traitor. This is outrageous. And that is really the illness that pervades the Republican leadership right now. It is one thing to the American public and something else in private. They understand that it is wrong, what happened, an attempt to overthrow our government?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: Now what's notable is this is not coming from Republicans. And that's who McCarthy has to worry about. He wants to be speaker of the House. If Republicans take back control in 2022, he has to stay in good favor with the former president and the MAGA wing of his caucus. That's why while we hear these conflicting statements, one might wonder what McCarthy we're getting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you tell House Republicans on a January 11th phone call, that President Trump told you he agreed that he bore some responsibility for January 6th?

MCCARTHY: I'm not sure what call you're talking about.

I've been very clear to the president. He bears responsibilities for his words and actions. He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. And he needs to acknowledge that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:10:02]

MCKEND: So far the former president seems to be standing by McCarthy. But that could change. Pam, we've seen Trump endorse only to un- endorse soon after. BROWN: We certainly have. Elizabeth Warren also had a warning for her

fellow Democrats. We're now, what, less than 200 days until the midterms, right? And the Democrats have been struggling to come up with a cohesive message.

MCKEND: That's right, Pam. She has been one of the loudest and most consistent voices in her caucus, urging Democrats, saying that they need to deliver more for working people. She says that can be achieved, in part, by investing in climate change solutions and ending tax loopholes for the rich.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: Yes. I think we're going to be in real trouble if we don't get up and deliver. Then I believe that Democrats are going to lose. Democrats win when they do -- when they work on behalf of working people and we can't just rest on what we've already done. We need to be fighting going forward. There are things that the American people elected us to do and we still need to get out there and do them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: Now this, of course, has proved to be much easier said than done for Democrats. There are conservative Democrats like Senator Joe Manchin that blocked past efforts to advance the president's domestic policy agenda. Also I think Senator Warren, she wants to be on record here. So if the Democrats do as poorly in the midterms as many suspect that they might, she wants to be on record that, you know, we should have delivered progressive policy solutions that impact working people. She does not want to be blamed because progressives often are when Democrats suffer big losses.

BROWN: All right. That is a good point. Eva, thank you so much.

And ahead this hour, Republican Senator Roy Blunt joins me live. I'll ask him about what we just talked about, the McCarthy controversy and about his recent bipartisan trip to Eastern Europe, plus his thoughts on the war in Ukraine.

And when we come back, people in Shanghai are essentially forced and fenced into their own homes as China struggles to contain a COVID outbreak.

Emmanuel Macron is projected to keep his job as French president. But the results are a warning shot from the far-right.

And as I mentioned, we have Republican Senator Roy Blunt. He recently got back from Ukraine. He is live with me here for a political lightning round. We're going to ask him why he thinks China is a bigger challenge to America than Russia.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:16:47] BROWN: Well, people in Shanghai are now under lock and key literally. China is doubling down on its zero COVID strategy by erecting steal fences and blockades on public roads to prevent people from traveling to other districts. And it's partitioning buildings to prevent people with positive COVID cases from leaving. Officials say the lockdown in Shanghai will remain in effect until the spread of COVID is eliminated.

Well, almost a million people have died in the U.S. since the pandemic began. And as cases decline and a new normal is setting in, well, the next question is how will we get over this?

Ed Yong has done extensive reporting and research on the pandemic for "The Atlantic," and won a Pulitzer Prize for his work.

Ed, thank you so much for coming on. I have been following your work since the beginning of this pandemic. And you write in this recent article about grief and how this is a particular difficult phase for those who are grieving right now. And you compared it to those who lost loved ones after World War II who went missing and how closure is so elusive. Tell us about that. How so?

ED YONG, STAFF WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": So a lot of them are people who lose loved ones in wars and conflict are often left wondering what happened. They're left to imagine those final moments and their imaginations run amuck with a lack of information. That's often the case of people who lost ones to COVID because they were separated from their loved ones at the time of their death. That combined with many other factors.

The lack of morning rituals at funerals and wakes. The persistence of thing that killed their loved one on the news. The constant insensitive questions from other people, things like, were they vaccinated often come before I'm sorry for your loss. All of these factors put together have meant that grief for people who lost loved ones to COVID has often been very, very prolonged and very intense.

It's often as if they locked their grief up in a time capsule that prevents them from actually dealing with it. And then when society reopens, the time capsule does, too, and they find themselves raging and sorrowful all of over again while the world around them seems to have moved on. And that sort of deepens the isolation that they're feeling.

BROWN: Yes, I know, I lost my mom during the pandemic. She didn't have COVID.

YONG: I'm sorry.

BROWN: But it was very difficult not being able to hug loved ones and sort of grieve with others. And then, you know, like you point out, there is this sense of, we should all move on. Let's all move forward, right, when so many of us who are going through the grieving process not ready to. Right? Tell us about that, how this is just so difficult in that way in the grieving process and how it doesn't look like a typical grieving process that we talk about so often. YONG: Well, even the typical grieving process we get wrong. You know,

a lot of the popular conceptions about grief aren't actually true. There aren't five stages, there isn't this linear path. It doesn't necessarily end in closure or acceptance. It can be messy and long and erratic. Even under normal circumstances we expect people to get over grief quite quickly. We're not very good at talking about it.

[18:20:02]

And now COVID grieve is our experiencing that usual kind of pressure but magnified many times over and it's almost like all the society has decided that together we need, as a country, to get past COVID and therefore the people who are still grieving loved ones, even people who might have lost loved ones like last -- in the last couple of months are expected to get over it right now altogether.

January and February of this year were the fourth and fifth deadliest months of the pandemic to date. Many people still experiencing raw and intense wounds from their losses and they're being told, you know, quite insistently and quite insensitively by a lot of people around them that they need to get over it. But, you know, for all the reasons I mentioned, this is a very top thing to get over. Getting over requires empathy from fellow people. It requires time. It requires opportunities to heal and many COVID grievers have simply being deprived of all of those things.

BROWN: I want to ask you, Ed, before we let you about what we're seeing in Shanghai. Authorities are essentially fencing people in there. They are not able to leave. They are portioning buildings where there are positive COVID cases. What do you think about that?

YONG: So, you know, there's obviously mental health costs to those things and there's a mental health cost to what we've all gone through in the pandemic. I think one of the problems that we as a profession in the news are very focused on the present. We care about the news. But we forget about the cumulative toll of the last two-plus years of what the pandemic has done to us. And, you know, we focus a lot about restrictions. But there's also the cost of just letting a virus run amuck through our societies.

There is the cost of all the deaths that we've seen, nearly one million people have died here. That means at least nine million people are grieving their loved ones. And to those people are being forgotten and ignored, and we can't do that. We need to reckon with that cumulative prolonged grief and find ways to be helpful and kind to each other.

BROWN: That's right. And also, it's worth just adding to that, that it's not only the nearly million people who died from COVID. All those other ones who lost their loved ones who couldn't be with them and by their side, who died during COVID, perhaps not from COVID like my mom. It's just difficult all around. And I'm so glad that you brought this to the surface with your article in the "Atlantic." Such an important topic.

Ed Yong, thank you. YONG: Thank you.

BROWN: Up next, Republican Senator Roy Blunt joins me live. I'll ask him about Russia's war in Ukraine, his recent trip to Eastern Europe and his thoughts on the midterm elections.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:27:21]

BROWN: Tonight, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy says U.S. Secretaries of State and Defense are visiting war-torn Ukraine. This would be a high stakes diplomatic trip for the U.S. officials and Zelenskyy is pulling no punches about what he expects from them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE (through translator): They should not come here with empty hands now. We are waiting not for just presents or cakes. We are expecting specific things and specific weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now is Republican Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri. He just returned from a bipartisan trip to the region including a stop at the Ukrainian border.

Nice to have you on with us, Senator.

SEN. ROY BLUNT (R-MO): Hey, Pamela, nice to be with you.

BROWN: Tell us first off what deliverables would you like to see come out of this reported meeting?

BLUNT: Well, I do think President Zelenskyy's anticipation is right. It's hard to imagine that the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense would go over there without something significant to add to what's going on. But frankly, just the fact that they're going over there adds a lot. That they're going to Ukraine, they're going to the country, they're showing their personal and visible support of our country and themselves for Zelenskyy is a good thing.

But on the weapons side, I think we're at the point where we need to get the Ukrainians everything that they need as soon as we can possibly get it to them. This is really a moment here where in the next couple of weeks, as the war changes to a more almost World War II kind of large land movements, it's going to be harder for the Ukrainians to disrupt that and it was the brilliant strategy they had to stop the Russians as they were concentrating on cities and you know I think also seen here a new way to look at warfare, maybe the warfare World War II is about over when you look at hand held, shoulder-held missiles, when you look at what drones can do that nobody has really seen actively engaged in combat before. And we need to be sure that they have all they need as soon as they

need it and it'll make a difference I think for a generation in Europe at what happens in the next few weeks, in the next few months in Ukraine.

BROWN: The U.S. is sending over I mean most recently $800 million in military aid, and a week before that $800 in military aid. Do you think there should be more that the U.S. is sending over or doing at this point?

BLUNT: Well, I think we need to be sure that we're sending the right thing and it's getting there in the right way. You know, there are some concern that the Ukrainian system of supply is still a little too Soviet in nature.

[18:30:03]

You know, the Soviet system was -- everything took a lot of time and it took a lot of people because that was kind of how the Soviet Union worked, and helping them stream line what they do with these weapons when they get them, and being sure that we're getting the right thing to the right place at the right time here it becomes really important. And I think, I think we're moving in that direction more first. It seemed to me that we were being driven by events more than we're driving events.

But we may be to a moment now where President Biden and the Congress are in unity and driving events on the trip I was on. Steny Hoyer, the majority leader in the House, put that trip together. He and I were whips together for about a decade and we talk every day. And we've always had a great relationship but there were -- on that trip, there were five Democrats and four Republicans.

And any discussion on this topic, the people who we were talking to, whether they were from other NATO countries or from Ukraine or from Poland couldn't have told I don't think who the Republicans were and who the Democrats were. There is a moment here both in our country and maybe even more importantly in Europe, where everybody is back on the same page and I think for several years, there were real serious reasons to doubt whether our NATO allies were fully committed to the principles of NATO or not, and at least for now and hopefully any foreseeable future, they are fully committed.

BROWN: I'm curious what you think the long-term prognosis is for Ukraine. Also for the U.S. and whether in the short term you see the U.S. being involved or NATO countries getting involved in implementing an embargo around the waters there, the Black Sea, given what we see Russia strategy being.

BLUNT: Well, clearly the Russian strategy is to try to take over the entire southern part of the country and maybe link up with Moldova, which then puts Moldova also at jeopardy. But the big economic impact of that is you really take away the ports that Ukraine has. You know, Ukraine has a significant amount of the food exports in the entire world, and you eliminate the water capacity to get that done, you've changed that economy pretty dramatically. It'd be a mistake for us to let that happen. And there should be dramatic penalties on Russia if it does happen.

BROWN: So does that mean that you think there should be an embargo on those waters, which is for our viewers, similar to essentially a no- fly zone, right, but on the waters?

BLUNT: Well, the embargo is more of an economic impact. And I think we have to figure out exactly what that meant and how to do it. How do you enforce and embargo there, but there certainly should be significant economic penalties on anything that comes out of ports or land that's been seized in the aggressive and brutal way, that the Russians are doing this. This is something I think after the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union, I think we have about 20 years where nobody anticipated that certainly in Europe that you'd have a country so aggressively, so brutally, so publicly doing what Russia is doing right now.

And I think there are war crimes involved and you know the court of public opinion, I think Putin is already guilty but people are right now gathering the information they need to keep track of people that were brutalized, people who were shot in the back of their head with their hands tied behind their backs, and the thousands of innocent victims where you bomb schools and hospitals and residential apartment complexes. It's totally unacceptable and Putin's got to come out of this even if he's a victor as a pariah, I think, to the other countries that Russia needs to deal with and surely would like to deal with.

BROWN: Do you think he will be a victor? Do you think he will be able to lock in?

BLUNT: You know, I think the Ukrainians have a real chance to win here. They've shown a real desire to win. The three big surprises I think of the war have been how the Ukrainians have fought back. How poorly the Russians have performed and really have the European countries have rallied around NATO and how we've expressed again our real commitment to NATO. And I think that says a lot about what can happen and if Putin wins, Europe will be a different place for a generation than if Ukraine wins, and we should see that Ukraine wins.

BROWN: I want to ask you about Putin's state of mind because you sit on the Intelligence Committee. And I know that it has been looking for clues as to a state of mind. How he is viewing this conflict. Based on what you know, do you think that Putin believes he is winning? And has the committee been given any insight into the reported detentions of senior FSB officials in Russia?

[18:35:08]

BLUNT: Well, I think that's important. Putin surely this did not turn out the way he thought it would. No matter how detached he is from reality, if he is, he can't help but see that this is a big negative for his leadership and for Russia and the Russian people may not know it. But the rest of the world does. So he's really got a couple of choices here. One is to blame the intelligence committee and the second is to blame the military. And right now, he seems to be saying, look, we weren't told everything we needed to know about what would happened and you're going to pay a price for that.

And I'm not sure even Putin can take on very many of these strong entities in his own country and hope to continue to lead. But we'll see. You know, he's been brutally in charge for 20 years. He's increasingly isolated. Those pictures we see of him setting 30 feet away from everybody he is talking to I think are an indication of his state of mind and maybe his detachment from the connectedness that most leaders in Democratic countries have to have. But certainly under Putin, Russia is not a democratic country.

BROWN: Very quickly, given what you just laid out there about the threat of Russia, why do you see China as the biggest challenge facing the U.S.?

BLUNT: Well, China is just more capable. They have -- you know, Russia without Ukraine is a middle rate power at best. If you add Ukraine to Russia, suddenly you've got this great agriculture capacity as well as all the minerals and things that Russia has. But China has the capacity and the money but I think China runs a risk here of joining Russia and Putin on the list of pariah states if they want to continue to go in lockstep with Putin. And they need to be paying close attention to what the Ukrainians have done and will do even in Putin gets some sort of temporary control as they think about what they might do with Taiwan.

BROWN: All right. Senator, stay with us. After the break, we're going to talk about the midterms and whether bipartisanship in Washington is a relic of the past.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:41:52]

BROWN: Welcome back to our conversation with Republican Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri.

Senator, I want to talk about bipartisanship. You mentioned that on your trip overseas that no one would be able to tell who was a Democrat, who was a Republican. Why do you think we can't see more of that in Washington?

BLUNT: Well, that is often the case overseas, and that's one of the good reasons that congressional travels is a good thing. It brings members closer together. It reminds us of how many things we agree on as opposed to how many things we don't agree on. You know, like I said, Senator Majority leader Hoyer and I were whips together for almost a decade. And I was in the majority part of the time. He was in the majority. But we would talk every day. We almost never voted the same way.

But we had a relationship that if something had to be done, we could always figure out how to work together to get something done that really -- we both agree and both our party leaderships agreed needed to be done. I think we need to see more of that. I think there is more of that in the Senate than meets the eye generally. I have my staff checked a couple of Congresses ago, there were 48 Democrats and 52 Republicans.

They were checking because I've had a lot of bipartisan legislation going on. And they said, we checked to see of the 48 Democrats how many you have been the principal co-sponsor of a piece of legislation with. And the answer was four. And so finding that one thing you can work on can be kind of a lost art. But if you can find it, it brings the members closer together, the staffs work better together.

BROWN: We get more done for the American people.

BLUNT: Get more done. And I think part of the answer to that, Pamela, is getting back to where you do more work through the committees and have more amendments on the floor and get back where you really legislate rather than having so many things decided at the end of the session by the two House leaders and the Senate leaders in a room with a dozen staffers. And it's just not a good way to make this -- not a good way for the Congress to work. But it stands in the way of members figuring out how they can make -- come together with their committee with something they can jointly present on the floor and get done.

BROWN: I do want to ask you about an issue that is very divisive. You've said that President Biden is the legitimate winner of the 2020 election. There is not exactly a consensus on that. Most people in your party, according to polls, don't share your view. I think the CNN poll showed 70 percent of Republicans believe Biden did not win the election. Does it make you feel uncomfortable at all that that is still an open question by so many in your party?

BLUNT: Well, you know, I think part of the daily discussion in the country is a failure -- it leads to a failure to agree on the facts. We used to have that saying that since all the time that you are entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts. And now you can go somewhere and find the facts you want to find and suddenly you bring them to the discussion.

As it relates to the last election, you know, both of these elections, the '16 and '20 were very close. I think '16 was decided in three or four states by about 80,000 votes. In '20 it was decided in the same number of states by about 130,000 votes.

[18:45:07]

So we got a time with narrow division. But if you think you were treated unfairly in the election, there is a process for that. You go to court. Your lawyers go to court. You prove how something that should have happened one way happened another way. And if that doesn't happen, you know, the process produces a winner and the process produces the next president.

BROWN: Right.

BLUNT: And I got to chair the inauguration both in '17 and '21 and on both of those occasions, we sent a really important message to the world of how a democracy functions. A transition of power is really important and denying the legitimacy of it, whether you're Democrats in 2017 and '18 that were saying it was the crime of the century that the Russians had somehow stolen the election and Donald Trump was their puppet. None of that turned out to be true.

BROWN: Right. But --

BLUNT: And I think -- the things now --

BROWN: And I understand.

BLUNT: Well, but the thing is now also I think are equally troublesome that somehow there were fake ballots. The fake ballots, you out to be able to prove that in court. You know, the president of the United States current or past has access to the world's greatest lawyers and the world's best judicial system and there was a time for that. And that's why for about a month after the election, I said, let's let the process play out.

If the president doesn't think he lost, there is an appeal process and between now and December the 14th, there's plenty of time to prove those allegations if they're true. And if they're not true and you can't prove them, then the process produces a different winner.

BROWN: So, as a retiring Republicans senator, there are a number of GOP candidates endorsed by Donald Trump who continues to push the lie that the election was stolen. These GOP candidates are running on that lie. Is that who you want to leave the Senate to?

BLUNT: Well, the Republican primary voters and states are going to make the decision who their candidate is and then voters in the general are going to make a decision about that.

BROWN: But does it bother you? I mean, does it make you feel uncomfortable at all? Does it trouble you as a life-long Republican?

BLUNT: No. No.

BROWN: It doesn't.

BLUNT: That there'd be differences of views the Republicans or primaries would develop in different ways.

BROWN: No, but that the election is being stolen.

BLUNT: I have faith in the process and I think the process will produce not only good candidates on our side but candidates who will do a good job if they wind up in the majority or the minority. You know, the inflation problems of the country right now are dramatic. The border problems are unbelievable. And we need some changes and we'll see what voters think in 2020.

BROWN: And no doubt --

BLUNT: And '22, and then we'll see what voters think in 2024.

BROWN: And no doubt the Democrats have a big uphill climb ahead of them and you heard Senator Warren say that this morning, that she was very concerned. But I do want to just -- given the fact that you are a Republican, a life-long Republican, it is fair to ask about the state of the party and how you see the future of it? And I watched your interview this morning. You were non-committal on whether you support Donald Trump for president in 2024. Basically saying you'd likely vote for the Republican but non-committal on him specifically. Other Senate Republicans are non-committal. I mean, Mitch McConnell as well.

BLUNT: Yes.

BROWN: Why? I'm just -- why is that? I mean --

BLUNT: Well, I don't think -- I think it'd be a mistake to be overly committal. A lot of things will happen between now and 2022. Let alone election year this year. Let alone next time.

BROWN: But where is the line? I mean, where is the line?

BLUNT: Well --

BROWN: Why is Trump's push to overturn the election results and his continued insistence the election was stolen not an automatic disqualifier?

BLUNT: He can have his own opinion. I mean, that's not a disqualifier because you may have one issue you disagree with. You know, the president has a lot he could be talking about. If I was him, I'd be talking about energy policies that made us the top energy producer in the world and energy independent. I'd be talking about a border that in this last year in office I think 17 people came across the border and went into this wait for trial as opposed to 80,000 that came across last month, the highest month in his last year. He's got plenty to talk about. But he gets to decide that.

BROWN: But he's not -- yes.

BLUNT: He gets to decide that. And then eventually, if he decides to run again, people get to decide what they think about that.

BROWN: Very quickly, I want to ask about Kevin McCarthy and everything regarding, you know, the audio that's out there, where he said he was going to ask Trump to resign. He initially said he didn't. Then the audio came out. Then he said he was just looking at options.

BLUNT: Yes.

[18:50:00]

BROWN: Does that concern you that a Republican leader can be caught in a lie with essentially no consequence? And I'm also curious if when you were no doubt talking to Republicans after the January 6th, did you see a difference? Have you seen a difference between what they were saying behind closed doors after January 6th and what they have been saying publicly?

BLUNT: I don't know that there was a big difference in the two. I do think that everybody had an appropriate sense that what happened January 6th was totally unacceptable. That whoever was involved in any illegal activity that day should be prosecuted. That we should do what we need to do to see that that never happens again but the analysis of the long run of that I don't know that there's great discussion of that or minds have changed a lot on that.

I think if you trust the justice system and people did things that were wrong those 700 people that have been indicted or others that might be, you know, we've got a lot of other things to move on to rather than to continue to dwell on what's the best way to deal with January 6th because the best way to deal with January 6th is to let the justice system work.

BROWN: In your view, I know that's a view of many Republicans. We're out of time but Senator Blunt, thank you so much. And quickly after this break we're going to ask you about your long-time friend Orrin Hatch.

BLUNT: Good. Yes.

BROWN: Yes. We'll ask you about that. Thank you.

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[18:55:58]

BROWN: Welcome back to our conversation with Republican Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri.

Senator, yesterday we learned that longtime Republican Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah passed away. How will you remember your former colleague?

BLUNT: Well, you know, he was consistent, he was straightforward. Very principled. But he was also a legislator and he understood you needed to find a place where you can get something done and if you can -- he was -- kind of had the Reagan sense if you can get 80 percent of what you want, you ought to call that a win and come back the next day and start working for the other 20 percent, and then the bipartisan discussion, one of his great legislative friends was Ted Kennedy, and they didn't agree on almost anything but the things they could figure out they'd agree on, they had really successful legislative results.

And I think Orrin Hatch was a person who cared about his family. He cared about his country. The only elected job I believe he ever had was the United States Senate. The first elected job he ran for and the one he left four decades later, and went home with his head held high and I think the conservative, held to his principles but understood that democracy's incremental. Nobody ever gets everything they want every day in a democracy or in any other relationship you want to be part of.

He's a great man. I'm honored that I had a chance to serve with him in the Senate and dealt with him several times when I was a leader in the House, and so I worked with him for 20 years and liked him a lot.

BROWN: You knew him well.

All right, Senator Roy Blunt, thank you for your time this evening and sharing your perspective. In all of these important issues.

BLUNT: Great to be with you.

BROWN: Thank you.

And this just in, we're getting some live pictures, this all-private SpaceX crew was about to begin its journey home. The hatch should close any second on the Crew Dragon. That's the reusable self-piloting capsule that will return the four-man crew to earth. Their trip begins as soon as the capsule undocks from the International Space Station. That's scheduled to happen tonight at 8:55 p.m. Eastern. We will take you there live along with the former ISS commander Chris Hadfield. Stay with us for all the latest. We'll be right back.

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